The second two names were Ituralde and Sir Boo. In the first and second rounds respectively. Kommodus received Sir Boo, Csar, Ituralde.
Printable View
The second two names were Ituralde and Sir Boo. In the first and second rounds respectively. Kommodus received Sir Boo, Csar, Ituralde.
So you did say you did that in the second round right? Well here you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=344
This says I attempted to kill GH in the second round. Which is impossible if JimBob made his choice to be me in the second round.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=350
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=412
So first I was a mafioso now I'm a cult member. omgwtf I'm innocent ;)
Unvote:UltraWar
Vote:Prole
Where you at Prole? Seems kinda suspicious that you haven't posted in a while.
Vote Count
Kommodus 3 (al khalifah,doc_bean,Kommodus)
ichigo 2(ultrawar,Xiahou)
Prole 1(ichigo)
Al Khalifa 1(Ituralde)
abstain(dutch_guy,husar)
Dang I thought a lot more people voted. I figured I had more votes than Kommodus. WeirdQuote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
I don't think either Kommodus or Ichigo is guilty. In fact I believe everyone is barking at the wrong tree at the moment. Sir Moody is very high up on my suspect list. The spelling mistakes were a perfect obvious frame and thus also the perfect alibi for him. To me he just seems to fit what I view as mafia behaviour. So;
Vote: Sir Moody
Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ituralde
My reason for suspecting Kommodus is that I have suspected him for some time and now there is a significant movement against him I feel the time is right to put my vote towards seeing him lynched. I'm not certain he is mafia, but of the players still in the game I think he is most likely to be so. I don't really believe much of this phone number cypher stuff - but other people seem to put faith in it - it's merely adding to my suspision not the cause of it.
Vote: Ichigo
I do not yet want Kommodus dead.
In truth, I am most concerned with Dutch_guy's 4 non-votes followed by a ringing "abstain." Lurking at this stage is not apropos....
No evidence for my vote. Seems about right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
I have suspected you for much of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
My suspicions are actually less than before this.
The vote is purely to engineer a tie between you and Kommo. If he drops his self-vote I'll gladly give Dutch_guy the attention I think he deserves.
It's not a tying vote. It's 3-2 now with voting closing in around three hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
... reference post 483; changes since...
Kommo: Doc, Al-Kal, Kommo
Ichi: X-man, Ultra, Me
2-3 others with 1 vote.
Get someone to swith to Dutch, vote Dutch yourself, and I'll make three and he can zip past both of you for the win.
I'de rather not see Kommodus die so
Unvote:Prole though your still suspicious
Vote:Dutch_Guy
Well do for obvious reasons. Your not really adding anything to the discussion your about like Sigurd up there lieing about the phone numbers and trying to get Kommodus lynched.
Vote: Dutch_Guy
...huh.
Strange doings are afoot, it seems. I expected to check back in and see a landslide of votes against me. Instead, it looks like a... tie. Or close.
And apparently I have Jimbob to thank for it. Well, that explains this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM from Sasaki Kojiro
IIRC, I got that between the second round's execution and the third round's kills. I wondered what was up with that... now I know. I guess a note of thanks is in order, JB - I didn't think that note would have much of an effect on anything.
Well, given the situation I suppose it'd be a bit morbid for me to put the lynch vote on myself, so I'll take this opportunity to...
Unvote: Kommodus
Vote: Sir Moody
I mean, numerically, he's still my prime suspect. Also, there was a curious little spat between him and GH in the beginning, which could've been an attempt to distance himself from GH, especially since his vote for GH was quickly retracted. He did vote for GH in the latest lynching round, but only after it became apparent that GH was going down. Lately he seems to be laying kinda low, especially since I named him earlier. :inquisitive:
Oh goody, now I can go to bed.
Unvote: Ichigo
Vote: Dutch_guy
reasons in posts above
Not as suspicious of Moody yet, but you may have it right Kommo -- other data points to consider?
Dutch_guy has been lynched.
***
Dutch_guy 3 (Ichigo,Jimbob,Seamus)
Kommodus 2 (al khalifah,doc_bean)
Sir Moody 2(AggonyDuck,Kommodus)
ichigo 2(ultrawar,Xiahou)
Prole 1(ichigo)
Al Khalifa 1(Ituralde)
abstain(dutch_guy,husar)
Killed (7):
Caius Flaminius
Kagemusha
Sigurd Fafnesbane
Warluster
Masy
Don Corleone
Sir Boo
Lynched(3):
Reenk Roink
GeneralHankerchief
Dutch_guy
Suicide(1):
Divine Wind
Alive: (16):
discovery1
Proletariat
Jimbob
Seamus Fermanagh
Xiahou
AggonyDuck
Sir Moody
Peasant Phill
Ituralde
Husar
doc_bean
Kommodus
Ultrawar
Al Khalifah
Ignoramus
Ichigo
pm's please
WHAT THE £€%@@$!!!!!!!
I don't believe it...
How could you let Kommodus slip away like that?
Didn't any of you see the kneejerk reaction of Discovery1 ?????
AND the obvious fake role that Kommodus claimed when the bandwagon against him got rolling?
COME ON!!!!
I shall haunt you people in your dreams... You will not see the end of this.
i miss one days voting and everything gets messed up - Dutch_Guy wasn't even on the radar and we lynched him because he wasnt contributing much??? wow thats really really bad reason to lynch at this stage - assuming GH was mafia that means we have 2 mafia left and 5 or 6 rounds left assuming no more suicides or WOG - lynching people who dont contribute much isnt going to help much.
so who tops my suspect list now?
Kommodus - how you didnt lynch him is a mystery to me he is the prime choice for a mafia outfit as he never explains any of his "methods" and is generally considered pro-Town. His odd role also has me highly suspicious of him
Ichigo - im not sure here but hes a complete flip flop - one second hes a saint and helping the town the next second hes throwing wild accusations around and the sudden twist onto Dutch_Guy rather than komm has me wondering what is going on
Seamus Fermanagh/jimbob - they both joined Ichigo very quickly and saved komm with no real explanation they just jumped on board
AggonyDuck - oh joy more quick shots at my spelling how i enjoy reading those - hes been laying pretty low up until now makes you wonder why he comes out of the woodwork and opens the door for kommodus to slip out without jumping on the Dutch_Guy wagon - seems a little too convenient to me
Proletariat - has completely dropped off the radar and is looking a WOG in the face, if she magically reappears then i would say lynching is in order
Hussar - lowest on my list - the early mafia messages were quite plainly trying to make us lynch him and we didnt - while i doubt it there is a chance it was too set up an iron clad alibi for Hussar, too risky in my books but...
Alright my contact with the masons have not responded as of yet but I feel the need to post this.
In light of JimBob’s reveal and the names he presented and when they were sent.
I shall inform you that both those names ; Ituralde and Sir Boo was attempted murdered the nights JimBob sent those messages. This could of course be a coincidence and doesn’t really mean that Kommodus or Ichigo is mafia.
I however believe that Kommodus is Mafioso in this game.
Ituralde was protected the night I died. If you remember there was only one kill that night. I don’t know if the Masons get a message telling them that their protected player was attempted murdered.
Sir Boo was protected by the Masons two nights in a row but was killed the night he wasn’t protected. As you all noticed when Don C got killed there was only one kill that night too. I believe that was the night Kommodus should have acted against Sir Boo if he was a mafia.
Also… The reason I rallied support for Ichigo was because he contacted me, thinking he had a role that he hadn’t been informed with. He copied the contents from Sasaki’s Pm and it is correct as JimBob told us, Ichigo got a red slip with the name of Disco and a blue slip with the name of Ituralde.
The question is: Did the mafia know about JimBob’s role or was it Sasaki who changed the kills if necessary? Also noteworthy is the fact that the masons put Sir Boo in their message naming him innocent. So the attempts on his life should not be a surprise.
I have to wonder though. Why the mafia attempted 2 unsuccessful kills on the man and a third successful when it is obvious that the masons put Sir Boo up as bait.
Signed,
Sigurd F
Your friendly ghost, spiritual advisor, townie spook and Archenemies of the Godfather
Do you really think disco is surprised that you react in such a way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
He would happily defend all townies as long as we lynch them for that reason.
He would also happily defend his mafioso if we don't lynch them for that reason.
You are taking disco too much into consideration concerning your judgement.
I unvoted him because I can understand his opinion and he did make sense apart from that role, then again, even the role may be true, I don't know what roles Sasaki invented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
I'm still waiting to see the fate of dutch_guy since my voting pattern is very similar.:2thumbsup:
And on top of that I even challenged the "evidence" against GH, I mean, isn't it obvious that I am pro-mafia? You guys rally have some weird voting patterns considering that I am still alive. Almost makes me hope that disco comes up with an awesome kill for me.:juggle2:
Well, we'll see this night.
"Jumped on board" mine arse. I STARTED the movement for lynching Dutch. I pushed for it for several posts. I did so because he seemed suspicious. Another with his voting record had already been removed, yet he was allowed to continue in play....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Moreover, despite Sigurd's stridency, I am not yet convinced that Kommo should be our target. I would like to see the evidence against him put into a single post, neatly, so we can evaluate. He makes a great CHOICE for a mafioso, but that does not mean he must have been chosen. He is not "clear" of suspicion in my eyes, but neither was I willing to run him up a pole based on what I'd read to date. Let's see the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
Wrong, Sigurd. I got my message from "Little Timmy" between the second round's execution (when Reenk was lynched) and the third round of kills (when Warluster and Masy were killed). That's right, there were two kills that night.Quote:
Sir Boo was protected by the Masons two nights in a row but was killed the night he wasn’t protected. As you all noticed when Don C got killed there was only one kill that night too. I believe that was the night Kommodus should have acted against Sir Boo if he was a mafia.
That makes this the second time you've lied to try to get me lynched. :inquisitive: Why anyone would trust you at this point is beyond me.
At this point it appears that Sasaki included several non-mason pro-town roles. I think it's safe to assume he would've also included one or more pro-mafia roles as well, to keep things balanced. I'm also pretty sure that one of those roles belonged to Sigurd. Obviously the mafia didn't know about it, since they killed him.
This makes Sir Moody even more likely to be the second mafioso in my view, as if earlier considerations weren't enough. Is he possibly feeling a bit of pressure after receiving two votes last round? His list of suspects appears to highlight some of those I consider most likely to be innocent. :no:
Okay, please recount/expand upon your case against Sir Moody and upon the differing evaluations you have of the suspects he names.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
A Kommodus who will NOT expand upon his analysis is one I am leery of.
Ah, what the hey. I'm currently writing a document explaining my various methods, which I hope to post soon, so I might as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
My current method is the same statistical analysis program that I used to nab you and Reenk in Mafia V. The program gathers and calculates various stats to measure people's posting patterns. There are a number of different metrics evaluating factors such as post length, posting frequency, delay between the start of a turn and first post, etc. As the method evolves I add more metrics.
Since the program makes it easy to calculate these stats for just about all the games that have been played on this forum, I can look at essentially the following two things:
- How does a player's behavior compare to that of past mafiosi?
- How does a player's behavior compare to his/her past behavior?
The evaluation of these questions, of course, is really more art than science. There are certain things to look for - for example, Sir Moody's posting frequency falls within the range mafiosi have usually been found. Also, his posts have been much longer in this game than in the past; this is often indicative of a person taking the game more seriously. Stuff like that tends to indicate a role - not necessarily mafia, but probably something.
When a player raises a red flag mathematically, I then use the program to extract all their posts and evaluate them subjectively, to see if any other red flags are raised. In this case, I noticed the argument between GH and Sir Moody in the first round; I also noticed that Sir Moody retracted his vote for GH rather quickly. It also became apparent that Sir Moody was a bit late on the final GH bandwagon. These considerations raise more red flags for me.
As for those on Sir Moody's list, well... I'm away from my home PC right now and can't look up their stats at the moment. However, IIRC most of them just don't look as suspect. I don't remember all the details right now; I'll have to check again when I get home.
Fair enough.
Actually, your methodolgy and mine run fairly parallel -- though I put more of an emphasis on the interplay of previous votes.
The subjective points you spotlight are those all of us evaluate.
Your initial sifting program would appear to be a key difference -- adding a lot of discipline to your intial "read." This is, frankly, better than what I have been doing on that level. Kudos! At least I was thinking of the correct metrics -- just never put in the time you did to systematize.
I look forward to your precis regarding the other suspects.
Oh my god, you fools
You were played, all of you. How could I even defend myself - didn't you realise I'd be asleep the entire time?!
So in the end, the attention I deserved was for me to get lyched - without having the chance to defend myself.
You screwed up guys, good job mafia. Good job Seamus.
:balloon2:
Now you know why I changed my vote to abstain so often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
Sigurd's "proof" seemed somewhat created at times and he liked to mention that he wwas proven innocent(I think I pointed that out before but maybe that was only in the chat, can't find it anymore).
He was also quite sure of what he said all the time, had contact to the masons, a doctor etc and seemed to be pulling strings behind the secene, maybe all this was to help the mafia, I don't know. He also explained as a mafioso he would go after innocents "Sasaki style", going by his really condemning ways and aggressive behaviour, as well as the constant "I'm really sure, I pulled this and that string, here is the 100% proof evidence, now go and lynch!" there is a certain chance he may have a secret mafia support role but I wouldn't be too certain about it, may just be an eager ex-townie who is a bit(or a bit more) wrong at times.~;)
Oh, and I just got reminded that he gives disco a lot more credibility than he should.
[QUOTE=Kommodus]
I didn't vote for Kommodus, nor did I ever want him lynched - you're going to have to prove that utterly ridiculous statement. Voting for me is fine, hmmz, but adding such an idiotic reason is just sad :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
By the way, why don't you want to see Kommodus die ? What has he done so far this game ? He hasn't pointed out someone, with his famed method, nor is a prime mafioso target dead yet. Either by lynch or by mobster death.
Well, have to agree. Seamus simply hinting at me being bad started the wagon in the first place, not exactly the thought out moves one expects of Seamus - very, very strange. He didn't even state why ? Guys, think for your selves !Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Good, suspicious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Right, why was that again ? Because, as you very well know, people don't get WoG'ed because they don't vote (note how one get's added to the abstainees when one doesn't post a vote, one merely has to contribute) but because people stay out of the game - Completely ! Not quite my behaviour now was it ? (note: you're all perfectly able to answe that yourselves, even without Seamus' guiding hand)
So the only thing I did was lurk, as I do in all games, and that was enough. You're a pretty good choice for a mafioso yourself, you know. So is every member here, we'd all make good ones considering our experience playing the game. Heck, with your well thought out posts (normally) you'd be a grand choice.
Also, I'd rather be run up a pole than simply lynched without being able to defend myself. Not that hard to understand either.
Now why would we want that, I mean, you didn't have to convince the town to lynch me - you merely had to ask. Why extend him that courtesy ?Quote:
Moreover, despite Sigurd's stridency, I am not yet convinced that Kommo should be our target. I would like to see the evidence against him put into a single post, neatly, so we can evaluate.
Why don't you do so now. He hasn't been of any help to the town, plus, he as a person is suspicious enough as it is. More so than I am, I bet his voting patterns can affirm that !
Sorry for the last bit Kommodus, but his blatant protecting of your person is quite obvious...
:balloon2:
i retracted my vote when prole went from kill csar mode to kill sir moody mode at the drop of a hatQuote:
I also noticed that Sir Moody retracted his vote for GH rather quickly. It also became apparent that Sir Moody was a bit late on the final GH bandwagon
and since General was one of the players i posted in my list of suspects ealier i dont see how me voting for him during the bandwagon was such a suprise - i work a 9 to 5 job and when i get home i play games for a few hours before i read the forums - that is why i was late to vote you will find i dont often make votes between 5 and 7 normally
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_Guy
I wasn't talking about you I was saying your not really adding anything to game. The bottom part was about Sigurd not you. I said you were acting like Sigurd not really doing anything. Sigurd is just throwing around lies and accusations while you and just saying random crap up until now.
Atleast Kommodus is doing something other than picking out quotes and saying crap.
So, that's the bottom part that wasn't about me* ? You see how that can be quite vague, especially as a ground for lynching someone who - as you so eloquently put it - has said nothing but crap this entire game ? I mean, sorry for coming over harsh after just being lynched without a case against me previously, but I hope you understand why I might be confused by your post.Quote:
Well do for obvious reasons. Your not really adding anything to the discussion your about like Sigurd up there lieing about the phone numbers and trying to get Kommodus lynched.
Plus, what has Kommodus been doing this game which is ground for you to not lynch him, but lynch someone who's been ''picking out quotes and saying crap'' - seeing as the town has been dealt a pretty heavy blow, it might be worth mentioning.
Oh well, all in all we've now - again - lost one townie. A lynching which took about an hour (less) to garner it's votes - all three of them...
* I have no idea what other bottom part I'd have to look for, seeing as those three lines were the lowest of that post.
:balloon2:
So can you tell me why you haven't voted except for abstaining?
Probably can't Ichi. If he was a role player, he can't reveal when dead.
He's right about one thing, however, I will need to hear more from Kommo to feel confident. His post earlier was more along the lines of what we need to hear, but I'd like a bit more.
Siggy's had his inconsistencies pointed out by GH and Kommo, so no need to rehash my disquietude over his role in this.
Sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
I tend to not vote unless I have a pretty clear idea on one's status in the game, I don't like pointing the finger unless I'm sure (or am convinced, as being sure in such a game is a rarity) of one's innocence or guilt. That said, it also helps deter the voting patterns - things that are often a handy tool in framing, lynching someone and almost always comes back to get you. This obviously works both ways, as it is just as suspicious as it is when used with a just cause. Abstaining, for me, at least, is simply the same as not voting (which is it's main purpose, of course). So, when I don't wish to vote, I abstain (obviously). However, I'm not always able to do so, time(zone!), school and the such are the main reason for not being able to always actually reply on time.
That said, one may be hard pressed to actually find me voting - in recent games at least - but then again, I do tend to contribute. Which is the reason I don't get WoG'ed at times where others are WoG'ed. Also, I understand one can get slightly irritated at such behavior, however, it is a style all on it's own you know.
PS: I was typing this when Seamus posted.
:balloon2:
I'm thinking Prole is mafia.
Good for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
I don't need any sass from you missy.:whip:Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Ok Seamus, I promised an evaluation of the suspects on Sir Moody's list, so here it is.
1. Ichigo
I'm surprised to see this name so high on the list (or at least I would be if I didn't think Sir Moody was mafia). We all know Ichigo/Csar posts like crazy, but he actually follows a pretty consistent pattern most of the time. The one time he differed significantly from this pattern was in GFII, when he was the Godfather. And how did he differ? His posting frequency went way down. In practical terms, this means he's the kind of player to lay a bit lower when he's guilty. In this game, his posting frequency has usually been much closer to his "innocent" baseline, except for lately when it's actually gone up significantly.
Add to this JimBob's testimony, and it looks like Moody is going after the wrong guy.
2. Seamus Fermanagh/JimBob
Ichigo and I both know that JimBob is telling the truth, since we both got messages indicating what he said. He couldn't possibly have known the contents of our PMs unless he arranged to have them sent. Thus no numerical analysis is necessary. Sir Moody attacks him with a factually incorrect statement, saying that he jumped in to save me with no real explanation. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I have less to say about Seamus Fermanagh. What called my attention to him in Mafia V was a dip in his average post length. This made me consider the possibility that he wasn't working as hard to find the mafia, and made me wonder why. This time he's staying closer to his baseline. He could've simply learned his lesson, but it's hard to say at this point.
3. AggonyDuck
The only game he's differed significantly from his norm was Black Hand 2, when he was guilty and posted a lot more. Therefore Sir Moody's attacks on him for "laying low" ring hollow with me.
4. Proletariat
I can't really evaluate this one effectively with so little data to work with.
5. Husar
Well, he's one of those who tends to hang around in the statistical range in which I usually find mafia, but that by itself doesn't mean much since quite a few people do. As Sir Moody said, the mafia were trying to get us to lynch him earlier, so he's probably innocent.
Anyway, my point was that Sir Moody's list of suspects contained a number of people I consider most likely innocent. As it is, his accusations remind me of Gertgregoor in Mafia III, who started throwing accusations around wildly when he started feeling the pressure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Actually which inconsistencies are we talking about?
If you are referring to my claim of the numbers naming Kommodus, it has already been explained.
As to the timing of someone attacking Sir Boo I mistakenly interpreted what this player that I mentioned said. The masons claimes to have protected Ituralde. They claimed also to have protected Sir Boo, several times.
We really don’t know the mechanics of this Little Timmy business. He claims that he PM’ed those names in the first round to Ichigo and in the second round to Kommodus.
Now if the mechanics are what Kommodus claims them to be, then he is in the clear. That is: they will not take effect until the round following the note. This is plausible as he didn’t get the note until the intermediate between the lynching in round two and the kills in round three. This is confirmed by Ichigo who got his 3 minutes prior to the kills in round two.
Let’s hear from JimBob… He would know how the mechanics works.
I interpreted them as in force the actual round they were posted
Round 1: Kagemusha and CF.. no one saved -> Csar in the clear
Round 2: only me .. someone saved -> Kommodus not in the clear
if the mechanics is set to next round:
Round 2: only me ... someone saved -> Csar not in the clear
Round 3: Masy and Warluster .. no-one saved -> Kommodus in the clear.
And Little Timmy should have put a few more notes under someone’s door as we are in round 6 (?).
[edit]: out of curiosity Kommodus, how did I fare in your method?
I was ambushed by RL. It is why I was away from my computer for a few days.Quote:
And Little Timmy should have put a few more notes under someone’s door as we are in round 6 (?).
As to the Little Timmy role. I sent them in after the first set of kills, then after the second set. Effecting rounds two and three respectively. I have sent the ones for this round. I am counting on who ever got them to keep quiet about it. My vote for Dutch came down to trusting the logic put forward by Seamus because I was frankly not caught up all the way. No I think I have a better grip of what is going on and will act accordingly.
Sigurd, you are also a liar. You say both of my innocents were targeted and saved on the nights I sent them. Yet two people died on one of those nights. I smell mafia tool.
I think that pretty much damns me then. Since there was only one kill in the second round.
So Sasaki, what do you say to posting an hour early?
Proletariat, Ultrawar, and Peasant Phill had elected to stay away from the town meetings and wander around the deserted town instead. They came upon an open door and entered, only to be blown away by a blast of fire from a tommy gun wielded by a drunken evil sadist.
Killed (7):Quote:
Only one of us Remains we cannot protect you for much longer - call these phone numbers to help us before it is too late!
0800 9685962433262766 - 0800 545556666387
Caius Flaminius
Kagemusha
Sigurd Fafnesbane
Warluster
Masy
Don Corleone
Sir Boo
Lynched(3):
Reenk Roink
GeneralHankerchief
Dutch_guy
WoG(4):
Divine Wind
Proletariat
Ultrawar
Peasant Phill
Alive: (13):
discovery1
Jimbob
Seamus Fermanagh
Xiahou
AggonyDuck
Sir Moody
Ituralde
Husar
doc_bean
Kommodus
Al Khalifah
Ignoramus
Ichigo
Begin Voting
Vote: Kommodus
I sent discovery1 and Seamus to Aggony Duck.
I guess your henchmen struck Gold in the last voting.Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
But then again.. No kills this round?
Are your henchmen getting sloppy, not dedicated enough?
Resting on their laurels are they?
You should tighten their leash Godfather, you can’t win this game with such a sloppy crew.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
So JimBob was killed?
No kill description?
Were you lazy disco?
Why didn't prole receive the WoG?
He is not in the killed listQuote:
Originally Posted by Husar
He showed us the kill description in the chat yesterday.. I guess his victims were protected.Quote:
No kill description?
Were you lazy disco?
Who knows... Sasaki has WoG'ed before has he not?Quote:
Why didn't prole receive the WoG?
My bad, I forgot the WoG.
Added.
Sasaki edited but since it was early in the morning and I was in a hurry, I might have misread Sir Boo as JimBob.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
He showed us a generic one, despite the fact that we shouldn't believe him anything anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
And why do you say "victims", which is plural, since you yourself are so sure that GH was a mafioso?
He has and he has now, thanks Sasaki.:2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
The new mason message, given that it is from a mason, is also pretty interesting, especially considering the last one before that.
vote: Kommodus !
This game is getting too confusing for me, I'll just keep accusing Kommodus so he defends himself and perhaps can draw some mafiosi out (or is part of the mafia and gets lynched, win-win here !).
A slip-up... Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Meh, WOG. Might be handing victory to the cultists.....
Oh, for the love. :laugh4:
Disco, I really appreciate all the respect you and your thugs are giving me in this game. :dizzy2:
The coded messages are clear:
9685962433262766 = YOULYNCHEDAMASON
545556666387 = KILLKOMMODUS
But just like Sigurd can't get his stories straight, you can't even get your graffiti to be consistent. I seem to remember a turn ago, a coded message from the masons (?) was:
878163875338 = JUST1OFUSLEFT
Now you tell us that we've just lynched one of you (by this you must mean Dutch_guy), and that there is now, er, one of you left. :inquisitive:
I've studied algebra, geometry, trigonometry, discrete and abstract math, probability, and quite a few levels of calculus, but never come across a mathematical discipline in which 1 - 1 = 1.
Nice try, really, but are you perhaps becoming a bit desperate?
Also, Sigurd, I still don't trust you. More inconsistencies keep creeping into your stories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
Uh... which night did you think I was supposed to have attacked Sir Boo? The night Don C was killed, or the night you were killed? Anyway, it doesn't matter anymore because as JimBob said, your latter scenario is in fact the correct one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
Anyway, hopefully I don't have to recount my reasons to:
Vote: Sir Moody
you may want to eat humble pie in a few hours Komm - im at work and busy coding right now but im going to make a pretty big announcment at 5ish when i get home
No problem dude, take your time. It probably takes a while to come up with a convincing mason-assignment PM in Sasaki's style. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
....Well, if Kommo is fooling me, he's reeling me in nicely. So far his arguments have an elegance that I don't see from the arguments against him.
I will not vote yet -- Moody deserves to speak first.
With the non voters largely gone, things should be fast and furious from here.
I guess inconsistensies are creeping into your statements as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
I can’t find where JimBob alledgely said such a thing.
I found however these statements:
andQuote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki’s PM to JimBob
It is obvious from those statements that my initial suggestion is correct and hence you tried to kill Sir Boo the round I died; in round two.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
Yes I messed up my first attack on you, but that was rather because I didn’t have the data in front of me and used the memory on top of my head. Obviously that memory was scrambled.
I don’t know why you got those notes late… If we should trust JimBob’s actual statements and not some imaginary ones, the names Csar got was applied to round one where Kage and CF were killed and the names you got applied to the round I was killed… I guess the masons could verify who they protected that night because someone clearly was protected. There should be one or two left in this game.
Well then, either you're not reading the thread carefully or you're deliberately ignoring things in an attempt to obfuscate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
For the love, Sigurd, pay attention! Mistakes, omissions, and deliberate lies - we've seen 'em all before. Most notably from mafiosi in past games such as GeneralHankerchief in GFII and Reenk Roink in Mafia V. They all claimed to have good reasons for it. The reality: it's just harder to keep everything consistent when you're lying than when you're telling the truth. :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
so there it is - I am the last mason. Warluster was killed by the mafia, you lynched dutch last round and that leaves me with little power and with kommodus and his gang after meQuote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
i cant comment on my fellow members too much but im sure they will pitch in and help but im going to give you a brief sumery of our actions - i dont have pms for all of them as my pm box is way too small for the amount of discussion myself and Dutch_guy had but i still have enough for kommodus's last few points
The first night we were of course limmited by a complete lack of clues - we basically had to just pick at random who to protect and so we decided we would save those of most use to the town
I protected General Hankerchief (ironic), Dutch_Guy and Warluster protected Kommodus and Seamus - we were close the Mafia targeted Sigurd and a New player
We discussed graffiti heavily but didnt manage to send in anything in time hence no grafiti
We were ready for the next round tho - We used a innocent to bait the Mafia into attacking - Sir Boo, my brother (didnt know that did you komm :beam:). Knowing it was risky we approached him and he agreed to help so we set the plan in motion. Dutch_guy wrote the graffiti using a telephone code he thought would be broken quickly - more fool us i guess.
I took a leap of faith and had a go at following the mafias pattern - Dutch_Guy defended my brother while i defended someone newish(Itrulde) and Warluster protected a veteran(not sure who).
As we now know thanks to timmy this paid off someone tried to kill Itrulde and i blocked it - result only 1 death (kage)
So we came to round 3 - no-one was listening to our graffiti and were proclaiming the peotic trash the mafia were using as the masons - i decided we needed to send a better message and so the graffiti signed by the hammer was my idea (hammer = masons)
For protection Dutch_guy took my brother again I protected someone new - i dont have the pm and i cant remmber who maybe dutch_guy can help here and Warluster protected Ignoramous - we failed and Masy and Warluster went down - we were one man down and no closer to the mafia - 2 kills told us that Reenk wasnt mafia and was innocent but out telephone code was paying off as the first few people started to break it - it was this round that sigurd contacted my brother and told him the code said he was innocent - we brought sigurd into the fold slowly using my brother as a intermidiate to begin with
Kommodus took his first swipe at me and no-one listened to him (thankfully)
once again Dutch_guy protected my brother while i protected ultrawar - one of us must have blocked it as we were down to one kill again, from little timmy i think we can surmise it was my brother who was attacked
Suspicion mounted on GH who was one of the main 3 in my Suspect list so we pulled some strings and helped get him lynched - considering the evidence against him we didnt really have to try
we sent no graffiti because no-one wa slistening to us anyway
we were sure we had a mafia member lynched and didnt think they would target my brother again - we got cocky - and so i protected Itrulde again and Dutch_guy protected Ignoramus
the message was once again Dutch_guys pervue and it wasnt ment to be what he actually wrote ( i have this pm)
well we messed up not only does the message not say what he wanted too but we let my brother die(he wasnt very happy)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_Guy
i took a break from the game for the next voting phase - i had lots of work and wasnt in the mood to play, well i should have at least looked at the thread as by the next morning(real life morning) the Dutch_guy bandwagon had lifted off and had gathered enough votes - we were now down to one mason and with kommodus and his goons litterally on my heels
With Dutch_guy down i took the graffiti into my own hands
kommodus has posted there meanings exactly so i wont again - well looks like i got my protection right i figured little timmy would be a good target and now there are no kills so i hit the mark once againQuote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Sigurd has been helping since the 3rd round and we let him in on who we were - while he may be fudging the codes somewhat he is telling the truth and has been helping us
so why am i sure its komm? im not - i dont have a magical mafia detector like him and frankly ive never liked pure math methods as they ignore the human element too much - his behavior this game has been frankly dodgy at best and that has twiged me onto him - i way be wrong but i dont think so
seamus seems to be playing good cop bad cop with Komm and hence has drawn my attention too but sigurd suspects him more than me so ill let him explain why
i expect im going to have komm debunking this as soon as its posted so hopefully dutch_guy, warluster and seamus can lend me their versions and we can see im telling the truth - good luck all as im a dead duck now
edit for my awful spelling
Aye, that's how it is people.
Just for reference, two PM's I sent in, this was the round Ituralde was protected.
And this one, the PM I sent to SasakiQuote:
Datum : 2007-01-08 14:10
Titel : Re: Masons
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think we shouldnt protect the Veterans anymore unless we can be sure they are clean - most of them will continue to post if they are killed anyway and theres a good chance at least a few of them are mafia
i will protect Ituralde
as to the graffiti - im not really sure waht we can write that will help the town...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
[QUOTE]Datum : 2007-01-08 22:47
Titel : Re: Mafia, masons
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are but two PM's, which I saved on my hard drive, that back up Moody's claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
That said, let me provide some backing on the encrypted numbers, as I thought that up:
As Masons we were tasked with protecting (not finding !) the mafia. Each night we'd be able to protect one townie, one by each mason.
We also had the power to spray paint graffiti on the wall, and what to write was entirely up to us. And that was harder than it seemed...
One can imagine that giving the town information, which you don't have, is harder than it seems. What can we possibly give the town which they couldn't get for themselves ? We were not able to confirm anyone but ourselves, and the dead, innocent but we could however try luring the mafia out. By giving them names, and protecting them afterwards - thus stalling their progress.
However, then the mafia 'd have to actually be able to break the codes. So it had to be clear enough to seem meaningless, but interesting enough to try and break. Since I assumed everyone 'd be familiar with Text messaging, I thought I'd go for that.
The second round I encrypted Sir Boo is innocent, and warluster. With the specific order to call the numbers. Few, however, caught on. A lot publicly stated they didn't get enough information. Not knowing we couldn't give them anything they'd possibly want to know, other than who we protected. Plus, the chances were high the posted info would fall into the wrong hands. Also, we didn't want to publicly argue about our seemingly useless info, for fear of seeming to protective.
The next round, some people (Sigurd and Seamus in particular) hinted at having broken the code. This was at the time Sigurd contacted Boo. Congrats Sigurd, you were fast. The fastest as a matter of fact. However, that night Warluster was killed. Sad, since he was a mason, but he died giving us the needed information. Namely that the mafioso had also figured out the code, and would pay more attention to it in later rounds. They did, and it didn't work for them at all. As we thwarted them a couple of times, giving the townies more chances to pull this off.
A few rounds past without any particular disturbing events, Moody and I corresponded, and (amongst other things) decided that if one of us would die - he was especially fearful since Kommodus attacked him - he would reveal and state what we knew, for all to hear.
However, then Seamus started the wagon which would eventually kill me. Sad, since the townies apparently wanted me dead ASAP. I was doomed, and unable to defend myself, in less than an hour. Well played, mafia, well played. Sadder it was, however, that I had successfully been able to lay low, and not attract that much attention to myself. A fact which has helped me numerous times, and at the same time tends to be a perfect excuse to kill me.
Finding the mafia was never our meaning, and thus we couldn't be of any extra help to the town in that regard. A shame, but that's the game.
That said, Seamus has been on my list for quite a while now - he just doesn't seem like himself. A thought which I couldn't quite surpres even after my death. The General only acted in a not-so-normal manner when people started to accuse him, he seemed to love his life more than any other villager previously executed. Which isn't that suspicious per sé, but it didn't quite come out the way I expected it too. Sounds weird, yes, but that's how it seemed to me.
Well, I guess that's it for now. Any questions, which don't require a screenie to answer are welcome..
:balloon2:
Your wish is granted! Though I didn't expect you to make it this easy for me... I guess Reenk's advice holds true: have faith in the stupidity of the mafia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Mistake #1: Kagemusha and Caius (a somewhat new player) were targeted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Mistake #2: So apparently the masons decided to identify one of their own in their first message, using a code they knew would be easily broken? I doubt it. More likely they used the opportunity to identify an innocent player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Mistake #3: (Related to mistake #1) It was Sigurd who died this round. Story's looking a little worse for wear, I'm afraid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Mistake #4: Ah yes, the last real masonic message doesn't fit with the rest of your story (as I pointed out), so you try to invalidate it. I have to ask: why would you claim only one left when it was false? Lying is better suited to mafia than masons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Mistake #5: Enlisting someone who has repeatedly lied and gotten it wrong (deliberately or otherwise) to support your case. Not what I would do if I were mafia, buddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Mistake #6: You know as well as the rest of us that it's against the rules for a dead person to reveal their role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Those are the obvious mistakes. I didn't mention the fact that I consider it a bit unlikely that Sasaki would give all the masons the same role, because that's a subjective judgement.
Anyway, looks to me like a botched reveal. However, if anyone isn't sure, I'm fine with being lynched along with Sir Moody, following the townie-role-for-a-mafia-is-a-good-trade rule. My role isn't worth that much anymore, since the mafia know it's risky to attack me.
Good luck, guys! :2thumbsup:
EDIT: For broken quote tags; also, I was typing this while Dutch_guy was posting. Hm, I'll have to take a look at that...
oh im so sorry komm i swaped two kills around by accident - it doesnt matter much does it? we failed to protect them they diedQuote:
Mistake #1: Kagemusha and Caius (a somewhat new player) were targeted.
dont ask me i didnt have anything to do with it Dutch_Guys PM's tells me all i knew about it - i gave the pm ask himQuote:
Mistake #4: Ah yes, the last real masonic message doesn't fit with the rest of your story (as I pointed out), so you try to invalidate it. I have to ask: why would you claim only one left when it was false? Lying is better suited to mafia than masons.
we enlisted him as you and you buddies killed him thus he was a confirmed innocent - we needed as many people as we could get to convince people - anwser me this why would someone you want to belive i killed help us?Quote:
Mistake #5: Enlisting someone who has repeatedly lied and gotten it wrong (deliberately or otherwise) to support your case. Not what I would do if I were mafia, buddy.
they havent revealed - i revealed them - im alive they are dead as far as i know i dont have to remove their names and since i have revelaed them this isnt a problem - if sasaki tells me otherwise ill remove the PM'sQuote:
Mistake #6: You know as well as the rest of us that it's against the rules for a dead person to reveal their role.
your basic defence is pretty lame Komm cant you come up withsome mystical maths to help you?
Vote Kommodus
I'm merely going to confine myself to some questions, as Moody (I'm sure) knows how to answer those best. However, a couple are just a bit far fetched:
Are you referring to the justone(1)ofusleft message ? That was done to confuse the mafia, lulling them into a false sense of security. Hey, we all know how Disco can get. Also, we needless to say didn't expect the town to lynch me. Actually making the statement true.Quote:
Mistake #4: Ah yes, the last real masonic message doesn't fit with the rest of your story (as I pointed out), so you try to invalidate it. I have to ask: why would you claim only one left when it was false? Lying is better suited to mafia than masons.
His lies were all ruse. Example, when he attacked you about your suposed name in the numbers, he was faking it. I PM'ed him actually asking him if he understood what he was doing, he was, he said. So, no, it may not be what the mafia would do. But hey, we aren't exactly mafia now are we.Quote:
Mistake #5: Enlisting someone who has repeatedly lied and gotten it wrong (deliberately or otherwise) to support your case. Not what I would do if I were mafia, buddy.
I am allowed to reveal, posting PM's is not forbidden. Posting screenies is, a thing which we haven't done - and we won't need. If the town believes me, is another matter entirely. If I'm mistaken, Sasaki, then I'm terribly sorry. And feel free to delete the post. However, such a reveal (especially after being lynched !) doesn't mean a thing if the town doesn't believe me, which is something they have to decide for themselves ! Were I killed, then you might argue it to be illegal - as I'd be a confirmed innocent. A thing which I'm not.Quote:
Mistake #6: You know as well as the rest of us that it's against the rules for a dead person to reveal their role.
Those are the obvious mistakes. I didn't mention the fact that I consider it a bit unlikely that Sasaki would give all the masons the same role, because that's a subjective judgement.
Also, consider it as unlikely as you'd like, Sasaki did as the PM stated.
Same here, a mafioso for a townie is a good trade off. Didn't expect you to actually admit to be one, though. Oh well, as Reenk said have faith in the stupidity of the mafia.Quote:
Anyway, looks to me like a botched reveal. However, if anyone isn't sure, I'm fine with being lynched along with Sir Moody, following the townie-role-for-a-mafia-is-a-good-trade rule. My role isn't worth that much anymore, since the mafia know it's risky to attack me.
:balloon2:
Accident? Obviously, but that sort of thing tends to happen when you're making up your story on the fly. That's exactly what happened to GH in GFII. A real mason, keeping track of things that have happened during the game, would be more likely to get it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Already answered much earlier. He probably had a mafia support role, only you killed him because you didn't know his identity and viewed him as a threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Oops again - see above for Dutch_guy's post-mortem claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
And what's this with Dutch_guy supposedly "breaking" a known rule against post-mortem role-claims? Come to think of it, why wasn't that rule included in the PM you "quoted" from Sasaki?
Could it be because, um, Sasaki didn't write it?
As Seamus and others pointed out, Dutch_guy was a bit suspicious. I personally didn't think he was guilty, but now... is it possible, perhaps, that he had another mafia support role? There are at least a couple of non-mason pro-town roles, leading me to suspect for some time that there were multiple pro-mafia roles as well. That scenario makes more sense to me, since Dutch_guy would only be falsely claiming a role after death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
Um... just how many of your side's lies are you going to claim as "ruses?" I thought by now we'd established the fact that for the townie side, honesty is the best policy. Those caught lying and later claiming "it was all a ruse!" have nearly always been mafia. Reference, again, GH in GFII and Reenk in Mafia V.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
Hm... an unlikely interpretation, at best, of the following statement:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
Sheesh, guys... it boggles the mind... :dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
A real mason is but a human being, with school, work, RL, and other such things which tend to sap the already scarce time off your hands have indeed attributed to the lack of a 'log' of some sort. That said, I did save all the PM's sent, and received to my hard drive. Not taking those now in my box into account. I can, of course post some ? Or Moody can, for that matter.Quote:
Accident? Obviously, but that sort of thing tends to happen when you're making up your story on the fly. That's exactly what happened to GH in GFII. A real mason, keeping track of things that have happened during the game, would be more likely to get it right.
Ah, a mafia support role...Quote:
Already answered much earlier. He probably had a mafia support role, only you killed him because you didn't know his identity and viewed him as a threat.
...
Sure, nice theory there Kommodus. So we first killed him, then used Boo as an in between (an innocent, confirmed) to then kill of our own man (Warluster), a thing which isn't possible, to eventually make amends with Sigurd...
Not much of a theory, now is it.
I can claim all I like, it is, after all a mere claim nothing conclusive (as you're doing your best to point out). The town have their PM's, and are at the moment deciding whom to lynch, I believe they'll make the correct choice now.Quote:
Oops again - see above for Dutch_guy's post-mortem claim.
And what's this with Dutch_guy supposedly "breaking" a known rule against post-mortem role-claims? Come to think of it, why wasn't that rule included in the PM you "quoted" from Sasaki?
Could it be because, um, Sasaki didn't write it?
As Seamus and others pointed out, Dutch_guy was a bit suspicious. I personally didn't think he was guilty, but now... is it possible, perhaps, that he had another mafia support role? There are at least a couple of non-mason pro-town roles, leading me to suspect for some time that there were multiple pro-mafia roles as well. That scenario makes more sense to me, since Dutch_guy would only be falsely claiming a role after death.
He did write it, it fits his posting style - that much is clear at least.
Well, Seamus is still in the game, an interesting fact on its own. I still fail to see how me acting the same as every other game is suspicious, especially considering my clean record in the past games. You were, as a matter of fact, right. I am not guilty ( as I've proven already), and no, I do not have a mafia supporting role...and I am not falsely claiming.
You do, however, realise that simply guessing at hidden roles doesn't help your case - at all ?
:balloon2:
Sorry to say this Kommodus but I know better. Sir Moody's claim is valid. What Moody and Dutch just told pretty much filled the gaps in my knowledge and they fit perfectly in with what I've previously found out. You're undermining your own credibility by trying to dispute the claim. I was going to vote for Seamus this round, but after seeing this there is no doubt in my mind about your guilt.
Vote: Kommodus
Um, can I ask what makes you so sure of this?Quote:
Originally Posted by AggonyDuck
C'mon people, think. In round 3, I got a "Little Timmy" message indicating any night actions could only be performed on Sir Boo or discovery1. There were two deaths, neither of which were Sir Boo.
I'm not mafia.
When someone reveals another Kung-Fu/Explosive's expert role I guess we've found our final mafioso.
Vote:Kommodus
Sorry I didn't trust you Dutch_Guy just didn't think. After I voted for you later that night I thought about it and you were acting suspiciously like a Doctor or Detective even if it's your normal posting style still.
How?Quote:
Sorry to say this Kommodus but I know better.
You wish to lay that out for us or are you just bsing us? I'm not going to take your word for it.Quote:
Sir Moody's claim is valid. What Moody and Dutch just told pretty much filled the gaps in my knowledge and they fit perfectly in with what I've previously found out.
Why? Did your attempted hit on him last night fail? Want to finish your business?Quote:
was going to vote for Seamus this round
Quote:
I sent discovery1 and Seamus to Aggony Duck.
Either the mafia targeted Seamus or me apparently. And there is enough inconsistency in Aggony's post. He's also is far too confident.
Vote: Aggony Duck
Masons, contact me. We can work together on this
Interesting developments... Kommodus has been looking suspicious since his apparently phony reveal while Moody's reveal seems too well orchestrated to be fake.
Vote: Kommodus
You are of course right... Sorry... I honestly didn't catch that last post by JimBob.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
:laugh4: ... It seems for me it is the other way around.Quote:
The reality: it's just harder to keep everything consistent when you're lying than when you're telling the truth. :no:
I need to pay more attention to the game whilst being a townie.
It's simple really all of the kills have been sent by Disco or he's just writting them, but who really knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
WTF??????????? I'm pretty sure you voted for me last round.:dizzy2: If I'm not mistaken that was before you voted for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
No, that's impossible. If discovery1 were performing all the kills himself, what would be the point of having a "Little Timmy" role?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
This is subject to change.
Vote: Kommodus
Not quantifiable, I'm afraid, but the tone of your deconstruction of Moody's reveal is off from your usual analysis -- reads more like Sasaki or Siggy.
Moody is a bit of a cypher to me, but his being a Mason would explain the discrepancies in style just as well as mafia status -- and his reveal coheres nicely (even accounting for the multi-hour run up).
I'll re-read tonight.
By the way, Moody, if I seem "off" to you, think back to how you were when hosting your shindig in the Gameroom. I'm frittered.
What's the point of a mysterious Kung-Fu role? What the point of a Explosives role? Sasaki might not have put in the PM that Disco couldn't send in the kills and so Disco has been using that to his advantage so he wouldn't have to put his mafioso in danger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
Now this is really nice, whatever happened, I am inclined to say the masons really messed up here.
I am inclined to believe that masonic reveal for reasons I may(or may not) state later but the thing about "only one alive" is really, really bad.
Then again, they couldn't have killed Warluster if dutch and Sir Moody were mafia. What also speaks for them is that I somehow cannot imagine disco selecting them as mafiosi as they are not really an experienced crew, but maybe that was just what made disco select them, hoping that the experienced players would lynch one another. and Kommodus' defense about warluster maybe having a support role sounds a bit valid, maybe they are also counting on him being away and not posting here anymore?
I'm really confused right now and may go to ask disco what he thinks I should do......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
Gah! I never said anything at all about Warluster, and I certainly never said he was mafia, as Dutch_guy implies. Clearly he wasn't, because he was killed. I don't know what role, if any, he had. I also don't really know what role Dutch_guy had - I speculated that he had some kind of mafia support role, since he's shown up here to support Sir Moody by claiming a role post-mortem, a move that is normally illegal. For all I know, he might've actually been mafia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Warluster, on the other hand, hasn't said anything.