Out of Character thread

So GH, the army you faced was a Papal States force that went Rebel? One of the two that was trespassing earlier?

Also, I'm getting the distinct impression that Heinrich thinks the Pope just tried to off him with troops operating under the disguise of being rebels. Correct?

I mean OOC we know armies rebel, at least for the AI quite a bit, but I can see how we might interpet it differently IC.

The next Diet session will be interesting.

Edit: As for the new influence system, I'll leave that to the more experienced players. But I am bitterly opposed to the n00b penalty! :laugh4:

FLYdude, I hope that we'll see you much more in the Diet now that you've got an avatar.

I think that the next Diet session is going to be heated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dlain

So GH, the army you faced was a Papal States force that went Rebel? One of the two that was trespassing earlier?

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Actually, I just assumed that the force I faced was just an uber-rebel force and wrote it to seem like Pope Gregory had something to do with it but your idea makes a lot of sense. I'll have to check the old savegames tomorrow (if you PM'd me, expect a reply tomorrow too) and see.

Well done GH!

TC and econ. Regarding the proposed concept, then I also agree.

As someone that doesn't have a PC (at the moment) there needs to be some way of compensating for that. This is also true for those people that for whatever reason can't fight battles due to personal time constraints even though they have avatars in the future.

My only input is to keep it simple.

The temptation is to make it more complex to therefore be more realistic. BUT, I would suggest sacrificing realism for simplicity as I can see too many discussions and debates on the topic which would detract from the main idea of this game.

I want a Diet session!! :2thumbsup:

Providing there's no more battles, I should say that GH will finish his reign in the next day or two.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Providing there's no more battles, I should say that GH will finish his reign in the next day or two.

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Sounds good Ignoramus!!

Argh... With GeneralHankerchiefs reign drawing to an end and I think one of the most interesting Diet discussions starting soon, it pains me that I'll be leaving town for a prolonged weekend to visit with my girlfriends parents.
I will have access to the Internet there too, but it will be limitied. :thumbsdown:

I had hoped to wrap up most story lines before then, so that I could act freely in the Diet. So to those concerned, I'm looking forward to PMs of you. While we probably won't get them finished in time, we'll at least get them started.


Oh and I think the system proposed by TinCow is fine. Especially the governor thing, as it was really awkward previously. I have not fully gotten into the Influence maths, but I trust the more experienced players on that matter.

Cheers!

Ituralde

Girlfriends...Parents!!

What are you doing??!!! Get your priorities straight Ituralde that's just crazy talking :beam:

I'm starting to get too swamped with work to be able to concentrate on one thing.

I've got school in the morning, work on graveyard shift -also in which a recent promotion demands I learn more about the machinery, hence causing me to devote more overtime than I had previously been able to ignore-, have to make time for the girlfriend, this pbem, and somehow find time to do homework, eat, and get some much needed sleep.

I'm going to have to put my posting here on temporary pause until the weekend when I can sort things out.

There's a possibility I may have to step down to a less prominent position in the KotR. I don't want to withdraw, but I may have to relinquish Dietrich and take up a lesser role for a while. It's not something I'd planned on, but I'm suddenly feeling ambushed by my workload. After I can clear some of my work I may be able to take up a more prominent role again.

Oh, I'll try to get around to working out Dietrich's story this weekend for those of you involved. If I decide I need to relinquish him, I've got a suitable situation in mind that still coincides with Dietrich's original plotline and also explains a few other things, as well as allowing whoever picks him up afterwards a plethora of play options.

Eek!

Lucjan, Ituralde, I hope that things ease up on you very soon. I will probably extend the Diet deliberations since we seem to be losing players left and right. Hopefully an extra day will allow you to contribute.

This also brings up another point. I don't usually visit the Citadel but have we tried recruiting in there? Since there are lots of potent M2 players there I'm sure that we could pick up at least a couple players while we wait for the regs to come back (Lucjan (possibly), SwordsMaster, Braden, Mount Suribachi, etc).

Re: Influence - I'm fine with that new proposal, it sounds less arbitrary. Good thinking. :bow:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

This also brings up another point. I don't usually visit the Citadel but have we tried recruiting in there?

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No, unlike Wots, I've not advertised this PBM. I did not want to attract a flood of players when we did not have enough avatars. I think we are still ok (Ituralde's off for a prolonged weekend only, AFAIK), but we can't afford many more exits. Do players think we should advertise in the Citadel for more Electors at this stage? I'm happy to do so if it is felt needed.

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Originally Posted by Lucjan

I'm starting to get too swamped with work to be able to concentrate on one thing.

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I understand that feeling. There's been times when I've felt I can't deal with all the PMs, write stories or even keep up with other players stories and the Diet debates. But the nice thing about this style of game is that other players can run with it for a while, giving you a breather. You can keep involved in a fairly low key way until things lighten up. Just keep a background presence in the Diet and maybe fight an odd battle now and then against rebels or whoever. You could swap away from Dietrich if you want, or you could rationalise him having a reduced input as an in character reaction to his falling out with Heinrich.

Given the work Lucjan has put into Dietrich, I don't think it would be right to assign the avatar to someone else. There's absolutely nothing wrong with refraining from much more than voting for a while. Do what you can when you have time and don't worry about anything else. People seem to be forgetting that they can take very light roles in this game. You do NOT have to drop out simply because you can't make lengthy in-character posts.

I'm not sure if we need to advertise, but doing so when the Diet session opens would be a good time, if we were inclined to do so. That way people would see the real meat of the game as it's going on.

Just a reassurance that my participation will only drop a little the coming weekend. So no need to worry, I just thought I'll let you know, lest you wonder where I am. :beam:

I'm not against the advertising. For example my House is a little short of players currently. Until DMu makes an appearance again it's down to AussieGiant and me, so I wouldnt mind another player onboard.

Merchants, at least how I play, seem to be of marginal utility. To get any benefit out of them they need to be micro-managed. The only benefit I like are the merchant cav available from the guild houses.

Should we adopt a house rule in the PBM not to use them? It would cut down the work load of the Chancellor, while making the game slightly more challenging economically.

Just a thought.

Merchants are ridiculously profitable... but only if you have access to the right resources. If you put merchants on all of the resources around Timbuktu and the city on the southwest coast of Africa (can't remember the name) you can produce upwards of 5000 to 6000 gold PER TURN from merchants. That assumes you own the provinces or have trade rights with the owners, but it's definitely worth it if you can achieve it. New World resources can multiply that income by several orders of magnitude, but it takes a long time to access them.

I would not advertise at this stage econ.

It's more than ok for various guy's to come and go throughout the course of this game...in many ways it can be very realistic IC given the task the various players have to do and their positions in the empire.

It's hard enough to keep up at the moment, more players would just add more posts and increase that feeling of pressure to keep reading, writing and sometimes scheming in the background :)

Everyone is doing an admirable job at the moment as far as I'm concerned.

There's basically 9 of us "involved" right now.

As for merchants, I'd vote we leave them in. I assume we are going to come under substantial pressure in the next 50 to 80 years of the game. With competing interests due to the "House" system I believe our resources will run out in record time as we argue discuss and pull in different directions :2thumbsup:

If it gets too easy then we can tighten the screws a little.

I have actually planned to continue Leopold as a trader and merchantman, whose main goal is to rake in profit for the Reich. I considered proposing an Edict next Diet session that will require merchants to be built to harvest those silver resources around Vienna. They only bring around 15 Florins though. I have enough Ingame reasons, but I fear the OOC reasons are somewhat lacking.
The only way I use merchants in the early game is to build them up on my own resources and once they're strong enough move them to Northern Italy and try to grab some assets. If they're successful they pay themselves of much faster.
A merchants guild would just be the right thing for Vienna too, IC.
I wouldn't take the merchants out of the game just for IC reasons mentioned above. It's just another thing to add depth to the Austrian trading Empire. :yes:

Nice job on that battle, Ignoramus. :2thumbsup:

Don't forget to upload/tell me the savegame, as Sigismund's victory is no use without it.

I'm going to stop playing for tonight, I don't feel well and anyway, we need to give the people who weren't present for this time to digest what has happened. By this time tomorrow, the Diet session will have begun and I will have posted my final report.

I didn't jump the gun on Otto being involved in the attack did I? I was going off the last save.

Now I know how Ignoramus felt. This is almost as nerve wracking as having the battle myself. :sweatdrop: I have confidence in Ignoramus, but it is out of my hands at the moment. I suppose this is like dropping your kid off at summer camp for the first time. :laugh4: Except with swords. . .

Edit: Posted before I heard the outcome.

2nd Edit: Released the prisoners! Looks like Sigismund and Otto are going down different paths. . .:laugh4: Congrats Ignoramus!

Oh, and yes, Otto did survive. I did send him into combat, but apparently he didn't kill anyone. It doesn't matter; his charge broke the Milanese.

Be happy that Ignoramus at least got to control Otto. In WOTS, I had one battle where a player-owned avatar arrived with some other units as reinforcements to my army, but I did not have control. He plunged himself headfirst onto a Macedonian spear.

DOH!

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Be happy that Ignoramus at least got to control Otto. In WOTS, I had one battle where a player-owned avatar arrived with some other units as reinforcements to my army, but I did not have control. He plunged himself headfirst onto a Macedonian spear.

DOH!

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I think he would have been better off if you hadn't tried to rescue him. :laugh4:

Ignoramus just informed me that he is having internet problems and probably can't get the savegame uploaded until Monday... a long time from now.

I think what I may do is open the Diet for deliberations and motion (edict) proposal early but hold off on calling for Chancellor candidates until I play the last turn out.

Any objections to this?

The candidates are extremely important. Back when we actually had candidates, the deliberations centered around their plans. I would want a whole session-length to interrogate the candidates. So, I say no to partial sessions. Now, we could open a full session, candidates and motions, and have you complete the turn later. Better yet, have the next chancellor begin playing with the save ignoramus uploads. I like that one the best because the current save represents exactly what the next chancellor will take over, minus the status at Bern. The only drawback is that you forfeit about half a turn, but that's not so much.

We'll probably need some extra time for this Diet anyway.

Having a turn left to play might screw up some candidate manifestoes, events might make proposed edicts defunct things like that.

GH would it make it simpler if you ended your term a turn early?

Or we could proceed with debate and modify edicts and manifestoes if events dictate.

Either way, I say let's go ahead and play it by ear as we go.

Edit: I posted the same time as FLYdude, I tend to agree with him.

This all sounds very complicated, but your all professionals so I'll just follow the lead. :balloon2:

Oh, and my PC is finally arriving next week!!!!

yeah baby!!! One custom built, overclocked crazy rig is going to play this game FULLY maxed out!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Ignoramus just informed me that he is having internet problems and probably can't get the savegame uploaded until Monday... a long time from now.

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Technically, this violates our 48 hour battle rule. We really need Mount Suribachi back to play the hard man and make us keep to the rules.

In the circumstances, I guess we will have to waive the rule, but I am a little concerned - particularly since Ignoramus will probably be one of the Chancellor candidates. Too many PBMs die due to technical problems of one kind or the other, and in this one - and Wots - we've tried to establish mechanisms to prevent one person's woes derailing the whole thing.

This time, we probably should just give Ignoramus the time he needs, wait for the game to get back to GH, who can finish off his turn and start a Diet session probably late on Monday night.

If GH does not get the save by Monday night, though, I'm inclined to say we play on without it, which by the rules means an autoresolve. :scared:

I really hope Ignoramus's tech issues are solved, I've lit a candle to the net gods, so we can avoid a headache no matter what we choose.

My first preference would be to wait to get Ignoramus's save back. He put time and effort into fighting the battle.

From a selfish point of view, I'm very much opposed to auto-resolving, the battle has already been fought. I don't want to risk Otto with the AI.

I can certainly understand, though, if the rest of you, particularly those with WotS experience, decide to press on. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Yes, I just quoted Wrath of Khan. And I'm a little obsessive over a computer game. C'est la vie. :laugh4:

Edit: Another thought, instead of auto-resolving we could let the siege continue for another turn. They might still end up attacking though.

It certainly would be much better to do a Diet session over a weekend.

I know Ignoramus has fought the battle but a second alternative could be for dlain to fight it. He is involved, so there is some logic.

The only problem with an autoresolve, if it comes to that, is that the battle had already been reported as a victory.

I think we should stick with the battle result we've gotten. It would screw with the roleplaying if we were to refight it in some manner. As for doing the Diet session over the weekend or waiting till Monday... well, most of Saturday is already gone, so I'm inclined to wait. It's not that much of a delay at this point and it will keep the game going smoothly.

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

It certainly would be much better to do a Diet session over a weekend.

I know Ignoramus has fought the battle but a second alternative could be for dlain to fight it. He is involved, so there is some logic.

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Actually, this thought had occurred to me, I PMed Econ earlier to ask about that, my preference at that point was to fight the battle rather than auto-resolve.

However, I had forgotten about some of the game mechanics. When Sigismund initiates the fight the battle map is of the castle of Bern. It's a sally out of the castle with Otto coming up in support. That's a winnable situation, as Ignoramus has already shown.

But, if Otto initiates the battle, the battle map occurs where the Milanese are stationed, which looks like the foot of the Alps. Sigismund's forces would arrive as reinforcements for Otto's two units. Sig's forces, at that point can't retreat without being eliminated. It would also, most likely, be a slog up a mountain against spearmen and archers, and that neutralizes our advantage in cavalry. This would be less winnable. I, personally, wouldn't attack in that situation.

So, my first preference still remains playing off the existing save. If it does come to an auto-resolve situation, I'd prefer letting the siege continue for another turn, without sallying out. I think we can hold them on the defense, even if they attack on their turn, with an auto-calc.

At this point we may as well wait until Monday, as others have mentioned. But if it goes beyond Monday, then I say let the siege continue so we can finish GH's term and get on with the Diet session.

Edit: If it's any comfort AG, this delay reduces the number of days where you'll be without a computer that can run the game during an active PBM. :beam:

Good points TC and dlain

And the motion is sold to AG!!

:laugh4:

Let's wait.

Hello guys, sorry about the delay. I should have the save game up very soon; within the next hour or so.

Thanks Ignoramus! Even got it back within the 48 hours. :2thumbsup:

Taking a look at the aftermath, you put quite a hurt on them. Considering the odds, a great showing. Looks like the remnants of their army fled all the way to the Milananese-French border in the southern Alps.

The Bern garrison certainly deserves some rest. They're about down to 1/3 strength after the assault and defense of the castle. Hardest working troops in the Reich. :laugh4:

Edit: Do we still want to turn Stettin into a town? That was Lucjan's intent I think. However, Fredericus von Hamburg is in Stettin, so is it FLYdude's decision now?

Savegame received, I'll be playing that last turn now.

The savegame will definitely be up soon, however, I'm not sure if I'll be able to make a report tonight. In any case, the Diet session will begin very shortly.

I'm sorry about the delay.

Anyway, I aim to put my battle report up this afternoon.

No PC yet...need maps, need maps need maps :wall:

Semi related question.

Is valentines day a holiday in the US?

Don't worry Aussie Giant, I'll send you some maps.

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Don't worry Aussie Giant, I'll send you some maps.

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Cheers Ignoramus!!

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Semi related question.

Is valentines day a holiday in the US?

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While V-Day is a major boon for the Jewelry, Greeting Card, and Suicide Hotline industries, it is not a federal holiday, i.e. no one gets it off, banks aren't closed, etc.

Ok thanks dlain.

The group that is shipping my PC is from the US. I was just wondering if Valentines day might interrupt their ability to ship it this week.

edit-

Nice write up Ignoramus. The pictures look great.

Hell of a win.

I agree, very nice write up. :2thumbsup: And excellent result. :bow:

But, I wonder, please could you put the pictures in spoiler tags? Like:

[ spoil] [ /spoil]

But without the spaces?

The problem is that if the battle report thread fills up with images, it will take forever to load (as happened with the equivalent wots thread).

Good write up Ignoramus. You portray the chivalrous nature of Sigismund very well. The screenies look good as well, I might have to crop my next batch like yours. Did you turn the green arrows off in preferences, or were the selected units off screen?

I'm assuming the 16 people who escaped were the archers you scattered before the main engagement?

Thanks for including my speech. Sorry Otto almost missed the battle because he had to stop for a brautwurst. :laugh4:

Before anyone asks, the Library will be fully updated this evening (US EST).

Ah, finally Leopold got married! I was afraid the House of Austria was in danger of extinction. They better get some children quick! :beam:

I have one question concerning the new governor thing. If I understood it correctly I can now give out build queues for both Vienna and Prague!? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Another question concerns merchants ingame. I just build a merchant from the recent savegame so that I could see how much income the resources around Vienna would generate. Has anyone else noticed that foreign merchants seem to be making more money? For example a Milanese merchant made 73 florins on one resource that the tooltip showed our merchant would only generate 41 florins. And our merchant had one point more in Finance. I guess the AI is getting a bonus there, never noticed it before. :thumbsdown:

Cheers!

Ituralde

On build queues, if Ammendment 3.3 goes through, then Dukes will set the build queues for all settlements in their Houses except those allocated to Counts.

BTW: on influence, the wording is a bit ambiguous, but I have always intended the Emperor to have influence = authority, not capped at 5.
This gives him a potentially big clout, but he is the Emperor.

In the wording of 3.3 is Max considered a Duke, or should we add Stewards to the list for influence and control of build queues?

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Originally Posted by dlain

In the wording of 3.3 is Max considered a Duke, or should we add Stewards to the list for influence and control of build queues?

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I won't protest giving those powers to the Steward, but as I stated for Amendment 3.1, I'm not pushing for Ducal powers for Max. A Steward would certainly be less influential than a Duke due to the lack of a hereditary title, so I don't think getting the Duke influence bonus is right. As for build queues? No role-playing issues with it, but doesn't bother me either way.

It's just that Stewards were the equilavent of Dukes in the old influence system. You may not want new powers, but why a demotion? :beam:

Sorry for the double post, but I've been keeping track of edicts and seconders on WordPad, should I post it here while Econ21 is offline?

I'll take it down once he has officially updated the list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dlain

Sorry for the double post, but I've been keeping track of edicts and seconders on WordPad, should I post it here while Econ21 is offline?

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That would be a help, cheers. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dlain

Sorry for the double post, but I've been keeping track of edicts and seconders on WordPad, should I post it here while Econ21 is offline?

I'll take it down once he has officially updated the list.

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Well, he's online now, maybe you should ask him. :laugh4:

-edit- Curses! Beaten to the post.

Nothing to see here, move along. . .

The Library is fully updated. Let me know if you find any errors.

TC, I think you forgot to update Leopold from Branden to Ituralde. Good job. Nice read everyone. :)

Hi TC,

I'm the 4th Austrian Elector now. Other than that it's great. A one stop shop for all empire related information!!:2thumbsup:

Edit: Please see the Diet thread for a list of current edicts and ammendments.

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Originally Posted by StoneCold

TC, I think you forgot to update Leopold from Branden to Ituralde. Good job. Nice read everyone. :)

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Thanks, fixed.

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Hi TC,

I'm the 4th Austrian Elector now. Other than that it's great. A one stop shop for all empire related information!!:2thumbsup:

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So there's no Second Elector for Austria now? Ituralde moved to Leopold, so he gave up the position of Second. I assumed that bumped you and DMu up a notch.

Hey TC,

Ituralde has certainly moved to Leopold.

I have not heard from DMu for ages but Ituralde has not made any changes IC for House Austria.

Leave it "as is" for the moment.

Cheers
AG

-edit- what yo've done is fine, I've PM Ituralde to get back to you about the changes.

As I feared, it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to free up the spare time I need to participate here to the extent that I want to. I'll try to get around to writing up an excuse for Dietrich suddenly dropping out of public life as soon as I can. I'll poke my head in from time to time to check up on things. But as for now, real life just dictates that I need to lessen my involvement somewhat.

I hope I've helped our newer players push off to a fresh start, and I'll be looking forward to coming back full swing later on when school either calms down or the semester ends. Until then, Dietrich and I are heading backstage.

That's a shame Lucjan, I looked forward to a few more sparring matches between Dietrich and Otto in the Diet. :duel: Hope it can still happen.

If you're following the Diet though, I think the Duke of Franconia will have company building watchtowers. :laugh4:

Mother of God!!

This Diet session is like standing on the bridge of the Titanic looking at some giant iceberg!!!

LMAO.

I can't say it's dull, but this whole POPE bashing thing is nuts.

Well, keep in mind that Rome is one of our victory conditions. We have to take it at some point.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Well, keep in mind that Rome is one of our victory conditions. We have to take it at some point.

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What!! I didn't know that!!

What are the rest of the victory condition TC??

I dont have access to the game from work, so I can't check, but I believe the Long Campaign victory for HRE requires 50 territories and Rome. It's pretty much the same as for most Catholic factions, except Rome is substituted for Jerusalem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

I dont have access to the game from work, so I can't check, but I believe the Long Campaign victory for HRE requires 50 territories and Rome. It's pretty much the same as for most Catholic factions, except Rome is substituted for Jerusalem.

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Yeah I also thought that the conditions were similar...BUT there's a big difference between ROME and JERUSALEM!!

Bloody Hell...that's changed everything.:dizzy2:

Don't just change your role-playing simply based on that info. We've got to justify it properly in-game, even if it's a victory condition. Even if we don't do it now, we'll get around to it somehow at some point, so no worries.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Yeah I also thought that the conditions were similar...BUT there's a big difference between ROME and JERUSALEM!!

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I had the same confusion before, but, like TinCow said, I'm not switching my role-playing. I want us to go to Jerusalem too - crusading in the Holy Land is just too interesting to pass on. Especially with the prospect of the Mongols and Timurids coming to call on it. Rome sounds rather parochial by comparison. :coffeenews:

I have to agree with TC, OOC of course :beam: , just because Rome is the eventual goal doesn't mean we have to move in lockstep toward it. I would prefer it if Rome was our 45th and final territory, not number 12.

As for the Titanic comparison, I'm getting the impression that some of our veteran PBMers want to play a campaign that'll put hair on our chests.

I mean why fight Timurids 400 years from now, when you can fight all of Europe right now! :laugh4:

TinCow, I think you can leave the thing with the House of Austria for now.
DMu has pmed me and I will see how much his participation increases in the next days. Otherwise I would promote AussieGiant to the post of Second Elector as I think activity in the game should be rewarded with an avatar.

Does anybody here have any experience with conquering Rome? I have never done this and while I have heard that the Pope can be given another settlement and thus never ceases to exist, I am a bit unclear on what happens exactly.
The important thing is whether it's weven within the boundaries of the game that the Papacy would actually ask the sam country by whom it was just conquered to allocate a settlement to them? Is it even guaranteed that we will be asked to sacrifice a settlement or does the Pope chosse beforehand? How high is the chance that an AI controlled faction offers the Pope a new refuge?

I'd like clarification on those points OOC, before I talk too much about them IC, so if anyone has definite knowledge, share it with us. Otherwise I'm completely fine with everyone of us just guessing at the game mechanics and deliberate those consequences IC.

I've never actually taken Rome, so I've been operating on what I've read here on how it works. My understanding is that if you take Rome and kill the Pope, a new Pope will spawn the next turn alone (just bodyguard unit) and next to Rome.

I am unclear on whether or not the Pope will actually request a territory from a faction, like a mission or something, but you can definitely just give him territory via normal diplomacy. I was thinking we could have a diplomat ready next to Rome to immediately gift him a territory when he respawns. That should be a big boost to our popularity, probably enough to get peace and be reconciled. Even if it isn't, a few turns of cash should do the trick.

Everyone in DC is freaking out over the winter storm that's coming through (this place is nuts when it comes to weather, every rain storm is the end of the world) so we may get sent home from work early. If so, I might have enough time when I get home to load up an old Venice game I have an knock the Pope off to see what happens.

Ah, I see what you mean.
I always though that the Pope would apprach some faction randomly and they would be asked in a mission to be the new home of the Papacy. If you could find out how it worked, that would be superb!

I took Rome once in a previous HRE campaign. I am pretty sure that it was the only Papal territory, so this may be accurate.

- Large apocalyptic battle, we win, Pope dies, Rome falls, etc.

- We immediately elect a new Pope (an HRE cardinal won).

- Pope respawns as a single bodyguard unit outside of Rome. Since he's my puppet I let him be.

- Later on, Sicily besieged and took Rome, giving it back to the Papal States. Pope moved back in and started to operate as normal.

Hi Guy`s,

I won’t change the way I am playing. No problems there. Basically I still think some of you are on drugs :)

I was just shocked to hear that is the objective for the HRE. I was under the impression that everyone was just role playing very much like actual history...well I suppose it is designed that way.

I have another question though.

Exactly how many of you here are actually afraid of the AI in a battle?

What I`m getting at is that if everyone`s skill here is very high then I get the impression we would start to play as if we could never be beaten. That to me is not very realistic. I don`t want to take away from everyone`s skill at the game but I hope you know what I mean.

I remember the old days of Dice based RPG`s. The impression of watch and participating in games in which you were so powerful that you could never die is still with me. In reality they were boring and predictable.

It wasn`t until sometime late that these games became really enjoyable when the guy running them made you realise that it was going to be pretty "real" in his games and you could lose, and you could make huge mistakes and you could die. Once that was established everyone played far more realistically and it was far more enjoyable.

For example and honestly. What are the odds you need to have against you to seriously consider that fact that you could lose?

First off, I want to make it clear that I'm pushing for a Papal war due to the background I developed for Max. I originally adopted that position based exclusively on history and that hasn't changed.

That said, I do think putting the Empire in danger would be good for the PBM. The best times for the WOTS game were when there were serious losses or threats of losses. M2TW definitely has a stronger AI and it's easier to lose to, but we still need to be pressed pretty hard for it to happen. If we suddenly found ourselves at war and attacked on all sides, the Diet would definitely see some fun discussions. If it's just victories all around, it's far less fun.

*edit* Looks like the US Goverment can't handle a quarter inch of ice. I'm on my way home, will test the Pope thing and report back.

Ok, Papal Smackdown 2007 is over and here's what happened.

In the game I loaded from, the Pope was in Rome (their only city), which was lightly defended, and the Papacy also had two full stacks next to Rome. I attacked and auto-resolved the battle to take Rome, killing the Pope. Massacred Rome for good measure, Papal standing drops to 0, as expected. The next turn there was a Papal election. I had 80% of votes, so whoever I chose was going to be Pope. I actually voted for HRE instead of myself (Venice) as I thought it would be more realistic to our situation. My standing shot up to 2 from the top, obviously due to voting for the right guy. However, I was still excommed. The new Pope appeared in one of the two existing Papal stacks, which did not die when I took Rome. I sent three diplomats to speak with the Papacy and could not get ANY kind of response out of them. I offered ceasefire, Genoa, and 100,000 gold and they refused. I even tried to gift 100,000 and they refused, even though we had good relations.

Since they decided to be grumpy, I squashed the stack the new Pope was in. I captured the Pope (nice ransom for those guys, btw!) and executed him to make sure I got a new round. Next turn, Papal elections again. I vote for myself this time. Pope spawns in remaining stack, my Papal standing is at max, and I am notified that I have been reconciled. I then send a diplomat to the Papal stack and offer them Genoa as a gift. They accept, Papacy now has Genoa as their capital.

Never saw any 'mission' to give the Pope a territory, but that could have been because I was at war with them and/or the situation only lasted 2 turns anyway, too soon for the mission to spawn. Regardless, it worked in the end. It looks like the Pope will spawn in an existing Papal stack if one exists. I suspect if no stack exists, he will appear next to Rome by himself, as I have read elsewhere. Then it appears to be a simple matter of getting back in his good graces and gifting him the right province. I suspect that I could have reconciled with the first 'new' Pope if I had simply given it a few turns and waited for him to accept my gifts. Worst case scenario is that we cannot get him to reconcile us, in which case he won't accept a territory from us. In that situation, it appears the guaranteed reconciliation comes from electing your own Cardinal to the throne. If we can't manage to swing that vote, we could always whack the solo new Pope by Rome each turn until our Cardinal is the only one left, thus guaranteeing us the vote... LOL.

So, my analysis: definitely doable. Could be complex and annoying, could be quick and easy. Impossible to say without trying in our actual game.

I was thinking that perhaps we could dump the Pope on an island somewhere. The last thing we want is for the Pope to have a fine city in the middle of our empire. He could then just build up a large army and strike when we're weakest.

Oh, I decided to change my username, the old one lacked panache. I hope that doesn't gum up the works for everyone.

Hi TC,

Thanks for the heads up on the Papal situation.

I do believe we should avoid this type of preemptive "checking" in future as it seems to be cheating a little :beam: Although in this case it is very informative.

Given your explanation, the situation is shaky at best. The role playing issues are very large as we are essentially putting our own puppet in.

By proclaiming the current Pope as false and then conducting this type of mechanism to take over Rome...I can't see this working IC and maintaining the empire in a civil state.

Just my 2 cents.

I still think the Pope Bashing Lobby are totally nuts :beam:

That's not a bad thing though LOL

I mean nuts in a good way.:yes: