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Prinz Henry: Ah, events are happening so fast I cannot keep up! So, the strategy we adopted in Edicts 4.1 and 4.2 of inducing the Lombard league to excommunicate itself has worked in both cases! Excellent - this strengthens the case for repeating the ploy with the French under edict 5.12.Quote:
Originally Posted by OverKnight
Count Otto- I am happy to second your Edict 5.13 and would be honoured if the next Chancellor would task me with the duty of executing it.
Most noble and honorable Electors, I stand before you as a candidate for the Chancellorship. I stand before you as a loyal servant of the Reich. I stand before you as a friend to the Ducal Houses.
Kaiser Heinrich and Count Sigismund der Stolze have done much to restore the Reich to the state it was in prior to the Investiture Controversy. The rebellious border lands have been brought back under our control and the upstart Milanese have been crushed. However, these victories have come at a cost. The emphasis on the war in Northern Italy has made the Ducal Houses vulnerable. Austria and Franconia were caught with few defenses when the traitorous Viennese and Poles betrayed us. It was only through the bravery and skill of Dukes Leopold and von Saxony that they were defeated. The Bavarian city of Bologna was occupied by the enemy. Brigands and rebels have been allowed free reign over our lands.
Today, Franconia continues to oppose Poland without support from the Reich. Austria continues to fight Viennese armies with nothing more than courageous militia. This cannot be allowed to continue. The Reich exists to serve the Christian people. The people are represented by the Ducal Houses. The Reich must do all in its power to ensure that the Houses have the means with which to maintain order within their provinces and secure the borders from foreign enemies.
The only way this can occur is if the Houses have armies of their own. The Armies must be free from meddling by the Kaiser or the Chancellor, yet they must also not unduly burden the resources of the Reich or endanger collective security. Accordingly, in consultation with other like-minded Electors, I have drafted the following Charter Amendment. While at first glance, it may seem complex and bureaucratic due to its length, it is exceedingly simple in application. The extensive delineation of clauses is merely to ensure that the Armies serve their purpose and are not abused by the Houses, the Kaiser, or the Chancellor.
Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:
1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.
The significant difficulties which will arise due to the Household Armies will be organizational of nature. Even then, the main burden will exist only in their creation, as their actual workings will be simple and clear once the Armies are assembled. Accordingly, the main burden will fall on the next Chancellor, and him alone. I will gladly bear this weight.
However, my commitment to the Ducal Houses is not limited to this Charter Amendment alone. Even if it does not pass, I swear to you that I shall do all in my power to work with the Dukes to ensure that their vassals are protected, their territories are secure, and their interests are given significant weight. No matter what occurs, I shall be a champion of the Houses and a defender of good Christians.
Yet, we cannot focus exclusively on domestic affairs. We find ourselves at war with three nations. The Milanese have been crushed, but they are not yet totally defeated. While their territories of Corsica and Sardinia are of little threat to us, they still have a massive Army on Imperial soil. We must destroy this force before it assaults Florence or attempts to escape. The city of Venice is of little threat to us at the moment. Kaiser Heinrich and Prinz Henry should combine forces and march to destroy the Milanese army immediately. I propose that once this is accomplished, we then seek a ceasefire with the Milanese, to allow us to concentrate on our remaining foes. Their island holdings are of little value to us and we cannot afford to send armies across the seas when we are threatened by land in all directions.
Edict 5.15: The large Milanese army outside Florence will be destroyed. After this is accomplished, we will seek to establish a ceasefire with Milan, so long as one can be obtained without cost to the Reich.
We must then turn all our fury on our traitorous former allies. Advances must be made be against the Poles and the Viennese. With skill, courage, and the blessings of the Almighty, we shall prevail in these struggles and bring righteous fury to those who have turned against the great Empire of Christ. As we speak, a Franconian army is besieging Magdeburg. However, it is a strong castle with trained defenders. The Franconian force must be reinforced with trained infantry before the assault can be made.
While Venice’s power has been largely smashed, Austria remains without a professional army to defend her borders. Kaiser Heinrich and Prinz Henry can resume the march on Venice itself once the Milanese have been dealt with. Duke Leopold must then be provided with a professional army with which to advance against the Viennese holdings to the south, particularly Zagreb.
The French question cannot be ignored. Fortunately, it is the easiest of the fronts to defend. Count der Stolze is encamped in the Alps with a large army. He can easily reach Dijon quickly with a significant force and defend Swabian territory from any French attack.
I am certain that there are some of you who have questions about my feelings towards Pope Gregory. I assume the rumors of my penance in Nuremburg have reach you, so I will simply say that they are true. I have spent a great deal of time in contemplation of our relations with the Pope. I have concluded that I was wrong. Pope Gregory is not a friend to the Reich, but then he is not a friend to any nation. Pope Gregory is a friend to Christians, regardless of their nationality. He has certainly made mistakes in the past, but he has proven that he wishes the best for our people. I believed that he forced the Milanese and Venetians to move against us. Yet he has excommunicated them both and not us. There is no possible way that the Italians could be obeying his orders.
As for the question of Investiture, there have certainly been errors made. However, is it so terrible to have Cardinals choosing the Pope? Are these evil men with bad intentions? No, they are holy men who serve Christ. Does giving them power prejudice the Reich? No, because the Reich has produced more Cardinals than any other nation, including a Preferatti. It is entirely possible that the next Pope could be Cardinal Scherer himself. Would that be an evil act that the Reich could not tolerate? I do not believe so. Indeed, the only reason this Pope or any other would have for moving against the Reich would be if we fell under the sway of heathens and witches. In such a case, it would be the duty of all righteous Christians, to restore the rule of God in our lands. I for one will never let the Reich be corrupted, so I have no fear that this will occur.
In summary, I promise you the following, Electors. We will immediately begin building Household Armies to defend the Ducal Houses. While this is going on, with the resources already available, we shall defeat the Milanese army outside Florence and take Venice. When the Franconian force at Magdeburg is reinforced, it will assault and take that castle. Once a professional army has been provided to Duke Leopold, he will lead an attack on the Venitian city of Zagreb. In the west, Count der Stolze will hold the Swabian border from attacks by the French. Throughout all of this, the resources of the Reich will be devoted to creating the Household Armies and restoring security to our lands. If you give me the power to do this, I expect that well before the next Diet session we will be able to advance anywhere and everywhere we wish without need for reinforcements and without risking the security of any House.
Electors, I seek to serve the Great Christian Empire. Give me the fiery sword and I shall wield it against those who would oppose the Lord!
Prinz Henry: In the light of new knowledge - specifically of the Milanese excommunication - I am revising Edict 5.12 so that it does not mandate the recall of all Swabian generals.
Edict 5.12 (revised): The Empire is to adopt a defensive posture in the west in an attempt to lead to the excommunication of France. When France is excommunicated, the posture is to switch to an offensive one - aiming at Rheims and then Paris.
At this time, I second the following Edicts: 5.9, 5.10, 5.12, 5.13, and Charter Amendment 5.1.
Dietrich Von Saxony:
"I applaud and second, Steward Mandorfs charter amendment 5.1. This amendment would make us stronger against any attacks from our enemies. I would also like to renew my support for Edict 5.12 from Prinz Henry on its current form."
I have now reviewed the proposed Edicts. Here is my stance on them.
5.1 - I agree with the principle of seeking alliances. However, England and Scotland are destined to violent conflict. We must seek an alliance with the one which will prevail, otherwise we will find ourselves allied with refugees. I believe England is the stronger power, so I would prefer we ally with them instead of Scotland. As for Russia... they are heathens who reject Papal authority of any kind! I cannot stomache an alliance with such foul creatures.
5.2 - Agreed and seconded. Our inner cities must be defended by militia which do not drain the Imperial treasury. With the Household Armies, rebels and brigands can be defeated without the need for expensive garrisons.
5.3 - As I stated above, I do not believe it is in our interests to invade the islands at this time. A favorable peace would be much better than further war with Milan.
5.4 - I have already stated similar beliefs.
5.5 - This would certainly be a wonderful achievement, but in all honesty I doubt whether it is achievable in the near future.
5.6 - The possibility must certainly be expored when we seek a ceasefire, but we should not continue the war simply for this objective, which may well be unobtainable.
5.7 - Agreed and seconded. We must spread the word of Christ to every last man, woman, and child in the Reich.
5.8 - Assassination is an unholy and evil act. I will never support this. If they are Christian foes, defeat them in honorable combat. If they are heathens, burn them publicly for their heresies.
5.9 - Agreed and seconded. However, the offensive must not outstrip our resources. Two armies must be assembled first. Franconia's Household Army must be available to defend its territories and an Imperial force must be created to drive deep into their lands.
5.10 - This conflicts with our alliance with Sicily, since Hungary is at war with them. We will have to choose one over the other. I do not know Pope Gregory's reasons for excommunicating the Sicilians, but it must be a valid one. The question of whether to choose Hungary over Sicily is one that should be discussed in greater detail by the Diet.
5.11 - This is a Swabian matter. We are neutral with France, but they have invaded Swabian lands. If the Duke of Swabia wishes to declare war on them, he has the power to do so. I have proclaimed my intentions to abide by the desires of the Ducal Houses and I shall stand by that intention here.
5.12 - As above.
5.13 - Fully agreed, but I will not second as my Edict 5.15 already includes this and more.
5.14 - This is sensible in all regards. Agreed and seconded.
Prinz Henry: I would like to throw my support behind the candidacy of Steward Mandorf. It is no secret that we have disagreed in the past, particularly about his previous aggressive posture with regards to the Papacy. However, I am pleased to note that his view on Rome has softened and become more nuanced.
On his reform agenda - Charter Ammendment 5.1 - I have worked with the Steward in devising this new system and I believe it will have several virtues. It will relieve the Chancellor of some of the burden of defending our realm - he will be free to focus on where Imperial forces are deployed, perhaps usually under his own personal command. It will also provide the heads of our noble Houses and their electors with an outlet for their own frustrations and ambitions.
As to the man himself, I believe Steward Mandorf has the experience, toughness and ability to lead us through what will no doubt be difficult times. Swabia will not declare war on France, but I have no doubt she will imminently declare war on us. We should be able to prevail, but it will require firm leadership. I place particular emphasis on our relations with Hungary - if she also turns against us, Vienna is in great peril and the Empire really will be fighting for its life.
Electors - I appeal to you to vote for Steward Mandorf: vote for reform and for a vigorous approach to the challenges that face us!
*stands quietly and speaks in a low threatening voice*
I must state my full support for edict 5.8 the acquisition of skilled assassins is a supreme necessity at this point in time.
To go along with this i propose edict 5.16which the nobility of our foes be subject to assassination. Our cowardly foes send their unwitting peasants to absorb all the danger in fighting us... should they not face the same risk for their decisions?
I also propose Edict 5.17 in which any aggression via the Papacy towards the Reich will result in an offensive against Rome via our field armies and the Pope will be subject to the proposed edict 5.15.
My fellow electors we must remember that we are the HOLY Roman Empire ordained by god and no member of the cloth can reject our divine mandate
Kaiser Heinrich:
It seems as if much has taken place in my absence. I will now proceed to make some official announcements.
First of all, this Diet will be extended for one day longer than what the Prinz had proposed, but the voting window will remain the same.
Second of all, I would like to announce that Count Otto von Kassel is hereby betrothed to my daughter Elsebeth.
More announcements to come.
Cloaked in a fashionable garment and once again wearing a stylish hat adorned with a peacocks feather Duke Leopold enters the Diet chambers. His face is set determined and he walks with a purpose. His gaze does not notice the other Electors assembled within the Diet. It is locked on Emperor Heinrich. Purposefully he moves to the middle of the Diet floor and draws a deep breath. Two more steps bring him closer to the Emperor, where he falls down on one of his knees, his head sunk in reveration. His voice rings out clear as he adresses the man in front of him.
"Mein Kaiser!
I have come here today to apologize for the mistunderstandings caused by me in the last Diet session. My pride and my selfish greed have made me say things and do deeds that I now regret."
Leopold raises his gaze to meet that of the Kaiser. His face is a blank mask showing no emotions at all except for a slight tension prove to the fact that he is barely able to control his feelings.
"I have come here to ask you for forgiveness in front of all these men. The same men in front of whom I have insulted you, so that they may all bear testimony to my penance. I hereby vow to be a better servant of the Empire than I have been in the past and do everything that stands in my abilities to further the glory of the Reich. I beg you to accept my apologies and accept me once more into this Assembly of men from where my pride and selfishness have exiled me."
His gaze travels to the floor again and a visible shaking can be seen that runs through his body. His shoulder blades are tensing visibly under the emotional onslaught. He remains kneeled, awaiting the words of his father, Emperor Heinrich.
The tension in the Diet is palpable and no one dares speak. A nervous clerk quietly posts a list of all current proposed edicts and their first two seconders.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...92&postcount=1
His slightest sound makes the Electors angrily stare at the intrusion.
*the young 6th elector of Bavaria stands up, with the latest intelegence reports fresh in his mind, he paused for a moment to find his words, then starts*
Firstly I would like to Second Edict 5.1, It has been amended to remove Scotland from the wording, and as for Steward Mandorf's concern about allying with Russia. It is my fear that soon Russia will have to choose between us and Poland, and I for one would like to ensure they make the right choice.
I would also like to second edict the revised 5.12 laid out be Prinz Henery, this edict shows tremendous wisdom, and this strategy has a proven track record.
*turns to face the 5th swabian elector*
Thanks are in order the 5th elector of swabia FactionHeir your recptiveness(sp) appreciated, it's nice to see houses work together for the good of the Reich. Also, the idea of putting the poles in their rightful place is a good one, but with war on two fronts, and hostile forces on a third, 5000 florins is a bit rich at the moment.
I Second edict 5.14 aswell, from the reports I have read, scotland now equals England, at least in provincial holdings.
*turns to agains adress the entire diet*
I believe that Maximillian Mandorf would make an excellent Chancellor, and second edict 5.15, and Charter amendment 5.1, both are prime examples of the wisdom and forethought he would bring to the office.
*Sitting, the elector eagerly awaits a input from some of the wiser minds in the room*
OOC: I have a refershed Diet page open another tab, all of this happens AFTER Kaiser Heinrich's response to Duke Leopold.
Kaiser Heinrich:
Welcome back, Duke Leopold. I am glad that you once again grace this Diet with your presence. All is forgiven, my son.
And now my next announcement: I hereby seek the position of Chancellor once again.
Good Electors, this Reich that we all serve stands on the cusp of greater glory than the world has known in almost a thousand years. The past three wars that plagued the last Chancellorship have all turned the tide. Milan is a beaten people. They make one last desperate move to swing things around. They will be crushed. Venice's capial city now stands under threat. Those traitors and oathbreakers will face the full wrath of the Reich, and it will be terrible indeed. Poland is also now regretting turning on us, as Magdeburg is under siege, with certainly more cities to follow for the glory of Franconia and Austria.
These wars will be decisively ended under my reign, just so we have time to turn on new foes. France is foolish enough to make an advance on Dijon. Former Chancellor Sigismund will immediately make a march on their position (without attacking) in order to let them know they mean business. If they persist, then we will simply repulse them everywhere and let them foolishly get excommunicated.
I have not forgotten about the brigands that plague our heartlands either. Steward Mandorf's proposed House armies are excellent, I give him that, but there are several problems with his amendment. Mainly, Clauses 6-9. One stubborn Duke could endanger the entire Reich. I cannot support such an amendment that allows that to happen. Rest assured, Electors, that I promise to uphold Clauses 1-5 and 10 if I am elected and the Amendment fails.
I agree with most of the proposed edicts so far, with 5.3, 5.6, and 5.11 (not yet). In addition, I second Edict 5.16 as it is a good Edict and no one has done so yet.
One may wonder, with my views so similar to Mandorf's, why I am running? Well, in truth, it was his idea. If you Electors can recall, he was the one who criticized me for allowing Bologna to fall under my watch. Election as Chancellor would ensure that I have fuller control of all fronts so that events such as these can be monitored and properly responded to.
In addition, my candidacy offers to the Diet a choice that you can be sure is not influenced by any outside forces. I am affiliated with no House, so I will make sure that none of you are passed over in an effort to advance my own. In addition, I am not a pawn of the Papacy or a woman. The decisions I make if elected Chancellor will be made by me, with input coming from this body and this body alone.
Good Electors, I am getting old and I have not much longer to live on this earth. But, God willing, before I make my final home beyond the gates of Saint Peter, I can continue to improve the Reich and make it a jewel in the world for many years to come. This is the best way I know how.
A Bavarian clerk clears his throat.
Good sirs, it appears there has been some confusion with Edict numbering. The Fourth Elector of Bavaria proposed two edicts which he numbered 5.15 and 5.16. Steward Mandorf had already proposed an edict under number 5.15. Accordingly, the Fourth Elector of Bavaria's edicts should read as follows:
Edict 5.16: The nobility of our foes are subject to assassination.
Edict 5.17: Any aggression via the Papacy towards the Reich will result in an offensive against Rome via our field armies and the Pope will be subject to the proposed Edict 5.16.
I would be grateful if the Diet clerk would update the Edict list to reflect this.
Dietrich Von Saxony sips his wine slowly after witnessing the reacent events, but doesnt say anything,just sits there and waits what will happen next.
Duke Leopold mumbles a quiet: "Thank you my Grace" before he rises again slowly and walks to the stand of the House of Austria. After short deliberation with his fellow Electors and the Emperors latest announcement he raises again to adress the Diet.
I fully support my father's ambitions to take the post of Chancellor a second time. He has shown in his recent Chancellorship that he is well able to guide the Reich against its various enemies. Now that armies are once again approaching us from all sides I consider it of utmost importance that the next leader be an impartial judge on the happenings within our Reich. I believe that Charter Amendment 5.1 will do enough for the different Houses and that Steward Mandorf will always be honoured for proposing this Amendment.
I think the recent Chancellorship has shown that the advancement of certain Houses can well be accompanied by a neglect for other Houses. The reason the House of Austria and the House of Franconia had to fight with inadequate forces in the past can not be explained by our Imperial Charter alone.
Every one of you should consider well whom to vote for when faced with a man that is willing to stand for his convictions and will be an impartial leader to all of us or if you decide to cast your vote on a man that has been known to change his complete agenda at the whims of some woman. You may never know what she'll be whispering in his ear next.
Count Jobst Von Salza stands up, shaking his head
once again we concentrate on Italy... Jobst keeps shaking his head
But!
Steward Mandorf, A while ago when you commented on Shuffles through papers 5.11, about the French and Swabian lands??? Swabian Electors have prposed that edict because one,
Recently two French armeis invaded the lands around Dijon, and heading towards Bern. Dijon is a very economic place, providing hundreds of florins for the EMpire, if we lose it it will be a great blow, to Swabia and the EMpire, we are proposing those edicts for our own good! I hope you an understand that,
Now executing is sometrhing of a distaste to me, and as I said before, italys trapped, Polands weak and France is coming. But we always are concentrating on war! Why not more peaceful edicts? Like one for-
Edict 5.18 - Every city and castle of all levels in the Empire are to have built at least 1 type of Economic help in that city, in 5 years limit
That edict is much mroe peaceful and will give us plenty of money.
Kaiser Heinrich:
Er, it seems in my haste to make a speech I fumbled over my words. The following passage:
should read as:Quote:
I agree with most of the proposed edicts so far, with 5.3, 5.6, and 5.11 (not yet).
My apologies to any confusion.Quote:
I agree with most of the proposed edicts so far, with 5.3, 5.6, and 5.11 (not yet) being the exceptions.
Prinz Henry (in a sombre tone): It is with regret that I learn of my father's candidature for the post of Chancellor. Unfortunately, I have already pledged on my honour to support Steward von Mandorf. Nonetheless, I wish my father well with his campaign and, regardless of the outcome of the election, I stand eager to fight under his command against the Milanese who are besieging his beloved Florence. (bows to his father, not daring to meet his gaze).
On a happier note, I am pleased to announce that I have made Sir Jobst von Salza the Count of Dijon. I think this appointment sends a signal to the French that we are committed to the defence of that city and I urge whoever is elected Chancellor to send Count von Salza to join Count Sigismund in shoring up our Western defences.
Steward Mandorf listens to Jobst von Salza's words, nodding and shaking his head casually during the speech.
Elector von Salza, I do not know quite what you expect of me. As I have said before, France remains neutral with us. Though they may eventually declare war, they have not done so for the time being. Until they do so, the decision as to whether to attack them first must be made by Swabia and Swabia alone. I will respect whatever decision the House of Swabia arrives at, but I cannot do so if you all disagree with one another! Prinz Henry is the Duke of Swabia and accordingly he speaks for your House. Accordingly, I will abide by whatever decision your Duke makes in regards to the French armies. If you disagree with your Duke's decisions, I suggest you take that issue up with him, not me. In any case, you can be assured that should I be elected, Count der Stolze will be ordered to move immediately to defend Dijon to prevent it falling to a French attack.
Maximillian Mandorf turns and looks at the Diet. His eyes rest upon Duke Leopold for several seconds, before he turns to face Kaiser Heinrich.
Some in this body have made slanderous comments about my loyalty to the Reich and my ability to be a fair Chancellor. The gist of these insults is that I have fallen under the sway of a woman of questionable worth who will turn me against the Empire. They refer to my spiritual guid, the nun Hildegard von Bingen.
These people find fault with my new found faith in God and respect for Christian morality. I will not hide my past nor try to obscure reality. Indeed, I am proud of it. I was a corrupt sinner before she found me; interested only in wallowing in the pleasures of the flesh. I was a foul and loathsome man. Now I stand before you as a righteous tool of God. I have taken a vow of celibacy and seek to spread the word of Christ to all corners of the world. I have sworn to protect Christians everywhere from the corruption of heathens and pagans.
If some individuals find fault with that, then I can only believe that they have fallen to their own corruptions. I am loyal to the Reich and I am loyal to Christ Almighty. Those are two links which do not conflict with one another. The mere fact that I no longer wish to see Pope Gregory's head on a spike does not make me his puppet. Many of you had the wisdom to propose closer relations to the Pope from the very beginning. In essence, those who doubt me also doubt your loyalty to the Reich.
Ask yourselves this, noble Electors; would you prefer to have a reformed sinner who has been brought back into the light, or one who still seeks to lead the Reich into a bloody war with all of Christendom?
Kaiser Heinrich:
If I may address some of Elector Mandorf's comments:
I have no doubt that she is your spiritual guide; I was just wondering if she advised you in any other matters aside from religion. After all, it would not be proper for an aspiring Chancellor if she did.Quote:
The gist of these insults is that I have fallen under the sway of a woman of questionable worth who will turn me against the Empire. They refer to my spiritual guid, the nun Hildegard von Bingen.
That sounds more like a priest than a leader of a great nation to me.Quote:
I have taken a vow of celibacy and seek to spread the word of Christ to all corners of the world. I have sworn to protect Christians everywhere from the corruption of heathens and pagans.
Quote:
If some individuals find fault with that, then I can only believe that they have fallen to their own corruptions.
Huh? You're starting to sound like Servius Aemilius, Elector Mandorf. Those who doubt you doubt their loyalty to Bavaria, surely, but not the entire Reich.Quote:
In essence, those who doubt me also doubt your loyalty to the Reich.
Milan and Venice have been excommunicated. Surely they don't fall under your definition of Christendom. Since that only leaves Poland, I will remind you that they were the very same people that sought to see the noble and glorious House of Franconia wiped off the face of the earth along with all its people, from its Duke, Dietrich von Saxony, to the lowliest peasant.Quote:
Ask yourselves this, noble Electors; would you prefer to have a reformed sinner who has been brought back into the light, or one who still seeks to lead the Reich into a bloody war with all of Christendom?
I only seek to destroy those that wish us harm. Surely your beloved Pope sees nothing wrong with that.
"The 6th Elector of Austria stands holding a book and looks towards Mandorf..."
Lord Mandorf, "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.. Luke 15:7 and to continue with the parable Lord welcome back to the flock.
Looking to the rest of the members...
On a more pressing business manner I second edict 5.18 to get the Reich's economy stimulated.
"The members returns to his seat.."
I propose Edict 5.19: All agent training is to be suspended in order to cut back on royal spending Our treasury is not very impressive to say the least, and I have voiced my concerns before. While the Fourth Elector of Bavaria and the Fifth Elector of Swabia's proposals do make sense, we have no immediete needs for assasins. Two of our major enemies, the Venetians and Milanians have been severely weakened by our conquests in Italy and will pose no major problem to us. Should we use our assasins against the French, we may accidentally start off a war should one of our agents fail. The Polish are the only noteworthy target, but it takes many years and much effort for a skilled assasin to be trained and those years paying for him will surely be better for spending on other more importants things
von Mahren frowns for a moment, and stands
Edict 5.3 scares me. The wholesale destruction of Milan could be a big and long-term commitment. While I agree with the ideal, I think it would be foolish to commit our next chancellor to soch a long-term plan that may pull resources from other, more urgent matters. With a different wording, I could support it, but as it stands now, it seems too much like a needless distraction. Vengeance is fine, but it will not help us defend our lands.
Edict 5.8, I will happily second.
While assassins may not be a very polite way to solve our differences, we have to realize how many problems a couple of skilled killers could. Imagine if certain powerful leaders who have previously wronged the Reich could be dealt with that way, without engaging in a war that would turn all of Europe against us.
As always, Duke von Saxony speaks wisely. I second edict 5.9 and 5.10.
And with my assignment to travel to Austria and lend help there, we may even be able to hit the Poles on two fronts once our borders have been secured.
I also note that many members of the Diet are looking for new enemies, of all things. I would advise extreme caution in this respect. We are stretched already, and we have to consider that each new war will do little to improve our relationship with the parts of Europe we are not yet at war with.
France, in particular sounds like a risky move. If they attack us, we will have to react, but we should not provoke them. They are a large nation, and not only that, but they have other powerful neighbors, which would, if we were to take French lands, leave us with a truly undefensible border. And what would we gain from it? French lands are not exactly poor, but nor would they, with only distant coastlines, provide the increases in trade and long-term income that we need.
I will happily second edict 5.12, however.
Denmark, as was suggested previously, would be a better proposition from tactical and strategic points of view. They are very isolated, and once eliminated, we would have access to both fertile lands and new harbors with all the commerce that follows, and it would even be defensible with no new neighbors to share borders with.
That said, we have to be careful even there. You may recall that I grew up in Hamburg, very close to the border. The Danes are brutal in a fight, and if you thought the spearmen from continental Europe were dangerous for our cavalrymen, you have not seen a Dane chop the horse from right its rider, armoured or not, with just one chop from his axe.
If we do attack Denmark, we have to do it with sufficient force to overwhelm them. A few hundred militiamen will not cut it, we will need skilled, professional troops. And lots of them.
They may not be the biggest nation in Europe, but they fight like demons. They may no longer call themselves vikings, but do not let that fool you into thinking they've gone soft.
I will also second 5.18. We have enough wars. What we need is focus on our infrastructure.
In the same vein, I would like to propose edict 5.20: All cities with access to the sea must build the needed facilities to encourage and boost commerce.
We have many cities with access to long stretches of ocean. Other nations are eager to trade and buy German goods. Why not exploit this fact to fill our coffers? If you doubt that naval trade is worthwhile I encourage you to study the economic reports of our cities. The wording of the edict is intentionally vague, because individual cities may need to focus on defense or other urgent priorities, and I do not wish those goals to be incompatible.
And finally, edict 5.21: The Reich will contact those nations with whom we are not at war, and have no direct conflicts of interests with, and attempt to improve our diplomatic relationships, with florins if necessary.
It is an investment that may cost us in the short term, but over the last decade, we have seen our standings with other countries decline, and we have been making enemies at a truly frightening rate. I fully believe that the occasional gift would prove worthwhile, both by reducing the risk of new wars, and by allowing trade to prosper. Perhaps, we could even gain new allies to assist us when we are backstabbed by those we thought were friends.
Now, if you will excuse me, I have to attend to the preparations for my assignment to assist in Austria.
von Mahren sits down again to read through the latest messages from his Duke
The 6th Elector stands and is pleased that we are discussing economics..
To the clerk I don't know if the edict numbers are getting out of sync. There maybe 2 designated 5.19.
I would like to second von Mahren proposals if it is 5.19 or 5.20 that a port city should be encourage to promote/build trade and his second 5.20 or 5.21 that we should be making contact with nations not at war with the Reich to promote trade and information.
*the 6th elector of Bavaria stands up with his copy of the Imperial Charter.
The past several edicts have all delt with the construction of buildings in the reich, but I don't think that is the right way to attack the ecomonic problems currently facing the Empire.
*the Young Bavarian Elector reads from the charter
The way I read this mein fellow electors, is that edicts are used to control the actions of the Chancellor, but the Chancellor has no control over construction at any settlements other than those yet assigned to a house. You see the problem?Quote:
6.1 If a character governs a settlement for more than two turns, the Chancellor must officially appoint him “governor”. He must request from the player the tax rate and a (buildings, not unit) build queue for the settlement for 10 turns. If any building is built in the settlement, it must be on the build queue. Governors receive +1 civil influence for the duration of their appointment, or 10 turns, whichever is longer.
Perhaps economics be left more to the individual Duchies? although Imperial oversight, and discussion in the diet on economic issues is necessary. Perhaps some sort of agreement between the Heads of the Various Duchies (OOC:i.e. each duchy will build 1 economic building in each settlement by the end of the chancellor's turn or something)
This agreement could then be officially presented to the Diet at the Result of every election, additionally it could be included in the Library of Official Records. I understand the this my be a long and arduous task (OOC: hold up game), but I agree with thise how proposed the edicts that there should be some official government control over at least the policy of the economy, if not the building designations themselves.
Stands... a little confused by the huge number of Edicts... and the lack of Austrian talk...
I would like to say that I will follow my Duke and support the Kaiser for the Chancelership...
also i support Edicts 5.19 and 5.20 but i dissagree with Edict 5.21... on the grounds that we need the money to build up the Reich and its armys... spending money to make nations like Spain and Portugal happy doesnt seem benifical... i say that we should wait untill we know more about them till we spend money on them... there-fore i propose Edict 5.22 we send diplomates to gather good relations with other nations... short of the spending of Florines on them
giving money to peoples when we need it is not a wise decision...
I would also like to propose Edict 5.23during the term of the next chanceler... the reich sizes Magdeburg and/or Bresalu... to provide a buffer zone and future launch sites for invasion agianst Poland
concerning the Charter Admendment... i support all the ideas on there except this
this would effecantly destroy the main armys of the Reich... and would allow households to stall troops heading to important fronts of battle because their army has lost a Regiment of Spears...Quote:
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
that is all
sits... and listens to the conversation
I wish to speak about Kaiser Heinrich's stance on Charter Amendment 5.1. He claims to approve of the Household Armies, but specifically rejects Clauses 6 to 9. These Clauses all deal with maintaining the Household Armies at a minimum level of strength, beyond which they cannot be reduced without the approval of the Dukes. By opposing these Clauses, the Kaiser clearly wishes to have the option to totally abolish the Household Armies should he deem it necessary.
This goes against the entire purpose of their creation. The Houses must have a means to defend themselves that is totally free from the whims of Chancellors and Kaisers alike. If the Chancellor can reduce a Household Army below minimum strength, no House will be guaranteed of security unless they are personally favored by the Chancellor. Houses which do not support a Chancellor in an election may find their lands once again defended by nothing more than militia and peasants!
He cites his reason for opposition as "one stubborn Duke can endanger the Reich." Electors, let us remember that the minimum strength level of the Household Armies will be 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. Does the Kaiser truly expect us to believe that 6 regiments will be all that stands between the Reich and total collapse? If those 6 regiments were so direly needed by the Chancellor, surely no Duke would deny him their allocation.
Do not let the Kaiser deceive you with his double-edged words. He supports nothing about the Household Armies that does not directly serve his purposes. He gives lip service to the Ducal Houses for fear of alienating them, and then shows that he would remove the means with which the Houses can always be guaranteed security.
This is the choice you have before you, Electors. You may choose a man who wishes only power for himself and cares not for the welfare of the Houses, or you may choose a man whose entire purpose is to give the Houses the irrevocable power to protect their lands and peoples.
Maximillian makes a fine point. Having a small force for each House will actually better our defences. Right now, we are concentrated around Italy and around the Polish border, but should the danes or the french attack in force, we shall be at their mercy. Let each House has a small force so that if some faction backstabs us, we shall be able to hold them off until our main armies arrive to finish them.
these will help as a holding force... but the Admendment will allow us to resupply small armys before the large on... a household army should be a first line of defence... not anything else...
so if this is to help us by adding defence?... then why do we ruin our other forces to uphold them?... reinforcements need to go to front-line forces... not to household armys that mop-up rebals all day long and get wounded...
*6th elector of Bavaria stands*
I must point out that the feared clauses 6-9 of the proposed Charter amendment are all trumped by clause 10, by giving ultimate control to the people Maximillian Mandorf has ensured that no hold out Dukes destroy the empire from within.
The 6th elector, walks off, looking to refil his beer stein
i care little about renegade Dukes... without the Chanceler to support them then a dukes troops cant be effectivly used... but the weakening of Imperal armys to mantane household troops is stupid...
Kaiser Heinrich:
Elector Mandorf, please allow me to invoke the words that you said in this very building so long ago:
Now, if we were faced with a full-scale invasion from, say, Hungary. Austria would be tottering and it would take quite a bit of force to repel this invasion. Now, in this situation, I could either:Quote:
Say we find ourselves at war with no nation but France. Strategy would dictate that we concentrate great efforts in subduing the French and acquiring their lands. Yet, this would lead to expansion that is only geographically contiguous with the House of Swabia. Would you then insist that wars be started with the Danes, Hungarian, and Milanese in order to create even distributions? If not, would you end up giving Paris to the House of Austria?
a) Immediately take initiative and send all forces to Vienna post-haste, or
b) Write four letters to the Dukes of the respective Houses kindly asking permission to use their House Armies to help stop the Hungarian invasion, wait for the letters to arrive, and wait for the replies of each Duke.
Rest assured, I shall do my best to create and uphold these House Armies. But a time of crisis is a time of crisis.
Otto van Kassel sits and listens to both his Steward and his future father-in-law, the Kaiser, announce their candidacy and trade verbal barbs. His expression is stern, but there is little clue as to what he is thinking. Glancing first at the Kaiser and then at Maximillain, Otto takes a deep breath and rises to speak.
My lords, while I respect both men who are running for Chancellor, I must throw my support behind Kaiser Heinrich. He is the best choice.
The Kaiser has promised to finish the wars against Milan and Venice. There has been talk in the Diet, edict 5.15 proposed by Maximillian, of offering peace to Milan. Bah! The only peace we should offer them is the peace of the grave! They are excommunicated and they only have two islands to their names. We must finish them while we have a free hand! Thanks to Count Sigismund, we have the ships available to scout out Corsica and Sardinia and transport our armies to them. Once we destroy their army outside Florence it should be easy to mop up their last possessions. We should not give them the time to recover or rearm. I ask that another seconder come forward for Edict 5.3 which calls for the elimination of Milan.
As for Venice, until we destroy their power on the mainland of Europe, they will be a constant threat to the Reich. How many sieges on Vienna must we endure? These curs betrayed their alliance with us! They must be crushed. Their defeat must be so total and humiliating that the rest of Europe will realize the folly of betraying the Reich! The Venetians are excommunicated as well and we must strike now. Therefore I second edict 5.4 and I hope the next Chancellor will drive them into the sea!
Once we have established our hegemony in Italy, we will be able to move troops to other fronts that require them, but first we must finish the job. The man to do that is Kaiser Heinrich! I ask that you support him.
Otto nods to the Kaiser and sits.
Mein Kaiser, Dukes, fellow Electors!
I see that many Edicts have already been proposed by this noble Assembly of men and I would like to add certain Edicts of my own.
With our wars continuing on several front we have managed to excommunicate two of our enemies, but the Poles and the French, should they attack, still have full support by the Pope. We don't know how much this will change in the future, but seeing our current standing the Pope is still displeased with our actions. So while I believe that if we follow the instructions of this Diet everything should pan out well I would like to propose Edict. 5.24 that deals with our relationship with Pope Gregory.
Edict 5.24:
The future Chancellor will avoid excommunication by Pope Gregory by following Papal cease and desist orders to the letter.
While the Pope's power has been waning, excommunication would still strike a strong blow at the Empire. I am not suggesting that either candidate would go this road, but better to be safe than sorry, as they say.
Another thing that I consider important and has only been lightly touched by Edict 5.4, which I second, is the war effort against Venice. As you all know I have come in touch on several occasions with their armies and it would be a special privilege if I could lead this war against the Venetians.
Once Charter Amendment 5.1 has passed and the Ducal armies are built I could order my own Ducal army forward, however the time frame until this unit is ready appears too long for me. The Venetians have thinned their forces by their repeated attack on Vienna and now is the time to strike at their depleted forces. Otto von Kassel is sitting on the doorstep of Venice itself and if his help is not needed in the south against the Milanese besieging Florence he should strike as soon as possible. In case he should have to withdraw I would like to propose the following Edict though:
Edict 5.25:
Duke Leopold is to be put at the head of an army large enough to seize and hold Zagreb.
Edict 5.26
If Venice has not fallen until the events of Edict 5.25 have passed Duke Leopold is to be given enough men to assault and conquer the city of Venice.
An advancement as far as Ragusa could be possible, but we have to see how far we can stretch in the oncoming war. All the time a large enough garrison in Vienna is imperative to discourage any ambitions by the Hungarians.
Considering them and the Eastern front, a young spy named Sifridus von Swabia has been loitering long enough in my capital and he could be put to better use watching our Eastern border.
Edict 5.27:
The spy Sifridus von Swabia is to be sent to the vicinity of Budapest. If he can infiltrate the city without a considerable risk for his life he should do so. Otherwise it will suffice he is active in the countryside surrounding Budapest.
Now let me adress the Edicts already put forward in this session. First I'd like to adress Edicts 5.18 and 5.20. While I support the merit of these Edicts, I fear that the Charter forbids the Diet to rule on building queues. These are the responsibilty of the Dukes and Counts. So while these Edicts can not be passed I urge every Count and Duke to follow their spirit none the less. Our coffers have been drained by the ongoing wars. In my whole Duchy one meagre Town Watch was built during the last Chancellors midterm due to our complete lack of funds. While we may be waging wars on wall fronts, we have to insure that our infrastructure keeps pace with our rapid expansion. A huge but underdeveloped Reich will not help us in the long run. That's why I will second Edicts 5.15, 5.4, 5.2, 5.19 and 5.23, although this last is partly covered by Edict 5.9, which have not been supported yet.
I guess I agree with most other Edicts that have been seconded so far. Although I would like to remind the Electors that all Edicts concerning alliances are a noble deed, but that the past has shown us how little such alliances can count once push comes to shove. Especially an alliance with Hungary, while desirable will not secure our Eastern front completely. A much more valid defense is that we show a strong face to our enemies. I have mentioned this earlier, but I feel this also needs to be edictified if I'm to go on a longer campaign.
Edict 5.28:
To prevent Hungarian aggression against the Austrian capital Vienna it's garrison has to kept at a minimum of six units, capable of defending the city.
That should be all gentlemen, I thank for your patience.
Duke Leopold sits down.
I am very sorry my fellow electors. A clerical error slipped into my last words and I meant to withdraw edict 5.6, not 5.5 as it is the Milanese that should be eliminated and the poles made our slaves and buffer zone.Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
In addition, I will second edicts 5.16, 5.23 5.27.
I will also suggest that as edict 5.29:
The chancellor shall endeavor to send emissaries (without needing to train new ones) to contact other nations we have no contacts with to obtain alliances, and trade rights. Our payment shall be no more than map information and he shall aim to make all contacts pay appropriately for spending our time and efforts on them.
Reasoning: We shall ally with most other nations we have few contacts with and that are far away to possibly gain profit from it (or at least no loss) and if they chose to betray us, it will hurt them more than us, because their reputation will be spoiled.
Kaiser Heinrich, as you surely know it takes weeks and even months to move armies from one side of the Reich to the other. This is infinitely longer than the day or two that it would take to receive permission from your Dukes. Indeed, if they refused you could call and emergency session of the Diet, convince the Electors of the need, and overrule the stubborn Dukes by a majority vote, all without slowing down the arrival of the armies whatsoever. A dislike of paperwork is a poor reason for corrupting Ducal independance.
I will second Edicts 5.24, 5.25, 5.26, and 5.27. I will not second 5.28 because I believe that this can be achieved by the Austrian Household Army. Should I become Chancellor, I would ensure that the Austrian force was assembled and made available to the Duke of Austria most quickly.
Member reviewing the long list of edicts and seeking some legal procedures with the clerk...
Chancellor, I would like to second the edicts 5.25 and 5.28
Also I would propose an Edict 5.30 in the spirit of 5.18 and 5.20 that had some seconders and not to conflict with the Dukes' responsibilities to govern that we encourage economic growth in cities taking the best advantage of their location being inland or port and build the most appropriate building for economic development.
After a quick review I will second Edict 5.29 it is in the same spirit of Edicts 5.21 and 5.22 with very little cost.
Franconian electors enter the Diet and take their seats. Dietrich Von Saxony takes the stand:
"Mein Kaiser, Prinz, Dukes and fellow Electors.After private talks with my fellow Franconian Electors,we have come to an agreement. We have decided unanimously that Franconia will support Maximillian Mandorf, as the next Chancellor of the Holy Roman Empire. We feel that he has earned that right ,by creating his charter amendment that solves the problems we have been facing in the war against the Polish. As we stand together in battlefield,we stand together also here in Imperial Diet and this time we stand together behind Maximillian Mandorf."
Dietrich Von Saxony bows to the Diet and takes his seat among the Franconian Electors.
Prinz Henry: Electors, I fear we are suffering from legislative overload. I propose:
Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose TWO edicts or charter ammendments per Diet.
We have around 20 electors, so potentially could still have 40 edicts. However, the cap will force Electors to prioritise and think carefully about their proposals. They alway have the opportunity to persuade others, perhaps especially members of their own House, to propose motions on their behalf.
Do I have two seconders for this Ammendment (it will require a 2/3 vote to pass)?
Dietrich Von Saxony:
"I will support, Charter Ammendment 5.2.. I think the Diet should not be overloaded with Edicts. We should consider carefully the Edicts,before we address the Diet with them."
Striding into the Diet session the 2nd Elector of Austria begins
Kaiser, Dukes, Gentlemen,
I leave for a few days and upon my return this place looks like the accoutants and lawyers have been getting you all drunk!!
Over 25 edicts!!
This is madness. We are in danger of talking ourselves to a stand still!!
I'm not going to propose another edict but I will say this.
Only Dukes or Stewards should now be able to propose edicts. Of course the Kaiser and Prinz Henri are included.
Formulate your ideas in the Household thread or petition the other 3 men directly.
As for the edicts themselves...well luckly I own a Legal practise in Vienna and I bought 10 of my best here. Once they scan everything and give me the summaries I'll make myself heard.
You are all more than welcome to use my lawyers. They are 200 florins per hour gentlemen...a very fair price I must say.
Taking a seat the 2nd Elector throws a stack of papers at his 10 lawyers and shouts
Read those you blood sucking bastards. I need a summary on my desk by tonight!!
I need to at least look like I know what I'm talking about when I stand here next time!!
Ten very worried looking man stream out of the Diet session whispering together intently.
AND DO SOMETHING USEFUL WHILE YOUR ALL OUT THERE AND ORDER ME A DRINK!!
All this talking is driving me insane.
Prinz Henry: Consultation with the Diet scribes has revealed that a limit of two edicts per elector would have done little to reduce the volume of legislation we must address. I feel the 2nd Elector of Austria's proposal is a little too restrictive on lesser nobility who may nonetheless have fine ideas. Therefore, I am revising:
Charter Ammendment 5.2 (revised): Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose THREE House edicts per Diet provided that they have previously securing the backing of two other members of their House.
I believe this ammendment will reduce the number of minor items of legislation, giving us more freedom to focus on the key issues of grand strategy and diplomacy. It will leave Electors with some individual freedom to propose an edict on issue on a burning matter close to their hearts. In addition, the House Edicts will provide some added purpose for the recently established House Diets (OOC: Duchy of X threads).
Otto smiles, a rare sight these days, at the second Elector of Austria's histrionics and rises to speak.
I will second charter amendment 5.2.
I will also call again for someone, besides myself, to second edict 5.3. We must finish the Milanese while they are excommunicated. If we don't, we will regret it when their gallies come to our shores to raid in the future.
I will also second edict 5.25. Duke Leopold deserves to lead an expedition against the Venetians. It is time he brings fire and destruction down on them! As Prinz Henry has expressed a desire to enforce edict 5.13, I do not think edict 5.26 will be needed. Don't worry mein Duke, I will teach the Venetians a harsh lesson in their capital.
Edit: Posted before the revision, but I will still support it.
Raising an eyebrow at the Prinz and casting a chuckle towards Count Otto the 2nd Elector begins
My Prinz, your compasion is immense, I might add of course that "I AM" lessor nobility by definition, and I have nooooo problem with the harshness of my concept. However I will bow to your wisdom and benevolence in this matter.
My Dear Count Otto,
Good to see you again. You seem to have a good spring in your step today!!
I'll second edict 5.3 for you...
...of course I really have no idea what that edict is about, as my blood sucking lawyers have not finished reading the reams of paper we have produced here.
Still, anything you propose will be of sound judgement in my opinion.
Otto chuckles and says from his seat:
Second Elector of Austria, a good jest, but edict 5.3 simply calls for wiping the Milanese off the map, I doubt you will need a lawyer to explain that to you. I am grateful for your support.
Duke Leopold stands to face Otto von Kassel:
I am sure that you are well capable of dealing with the Venetians in their capital and Edict 5.26 was only intended for a scenario where you won't be able to finally crush the capital of those traitors.
Also with all these politics I fear I have missed to congratulate you on the engagement with my sister Elsebeth. My father has chosen well in giving his daughter's hand in marriage to such a superb servant of the Reich!
*Maximillian Mandorf stands, an exasperated look on his face.*
If Count von Kassel wishes to stump for Edict 5.3 then I suppose I should similarly promote my own Edict 5.15, which still needs one more second. For the sake of those without their own armada of attorneys, I shall recite the text of the Edict again.
Edict 5.15: The large Milanese army outside Florence will be destroyed. After this is accomplished, we will seek to establish a ceasefire with Milan, so long as one can be obtained without cost to the Reich.
With three wars already on-going and a fourth being threatened in the West, the notion of continuing our assault on the already defeated Milanese is ridiculous. The army outside of Florence is their last force on the mainland and is composed of nearly all military might they can assemble. The Kaiser will surely eliminate it entirely, leaving nothing but their island holdings.
Yes, we could invade those islands, but it would be a lengthy process and require the investment of resources that are badly needed to deal with the Poles, Venitians, and French. Our fleet is small and will require several years to ferry over a large force of men (OOC: fleets can only transport 1 unit per ship) and both islands are home to castles. It could certainly be done, but what it the point, Electors?
There is no doubt that Milan has paid severely for their attack on us. Nor will they be a threat to us after the mainland army has been crushed. Let us end this war, make the Milanese pay us tribute, and divert our Italian armies to the places they are needed the most. We seem to all agree that the Austrians must be supplied with regiments to allow them to advance against the Venitians. How are these regiments to be prepared any time soon if our armies in Italy are sent elsewhere?
Be reasonable, gentlemen. There is a limit to the treasury which we are near to exceeding. We must be at least somewhat frugal in our campaigns and Milan is the least important of them all at this point. Let us use them as a source of revenue, not a further drain on our coffers. So, please, second Edict 5.15 and vote in favor of it when the time comes.
Otto shakes his head, and rises to speak.
I must respectfully disagree with mein Steward. He says that the Milanese will be nearly finished after we crush their mainland army. Well, if they're nearly finished, then why not finish them completely? We already have the ships, and I'm sure a small to mid-sized army will serve to seize both Corsica and Sardinia. We can convert these castles to towns and due to their position in the Mediterranean, they will pay for themselves in a few years.
I doubt the Milanese will accept an offer of peace on terms favorable to us, and I would not face a revived threat from them a decade from now. We must finish the job!
Dietrich Von Saxony takes the stand and starts reading from a scroll.
"I hereby second following: Edict 5.15,Edict 5.24,Edict 5.25,Edict 5.26 and Edict 5.29..Thank you."
Dietrich is about to walk back to his place,when he turns around and says:
"And i renew my support on the current form of Charter Amendment 5.2."
Tell me Otto, do you believe that you can milk more florins out of the decrepit, back-water settlements on Corsica and Sardinia than you can out of the developed areas of Venice, Zagreb, and Ragusa? That is what you are favoring, my friend, for by diverting forces from the Austrian campaign you will most surely severely delay the capture of the first two and probably prevent altogether a march on the latter.
A few years delay at most Maximillian, it is a small price to pay to be rid of the Milanese forever!
Surely you are not undermining your own skills as a prospective Chancellor by exaggerating the difficulties?
I believe that edict 5.3, which I proposed, is very well worth going through with as having 2 castles on islands is a perfect staging point for crusades and invasion fleets to Iberia and Africa alike.
As Mandorf pointed out, the enemy army near Florence is the last straw of the Milanese. As such, sending only a small expedition force to the islands should be enough to crush the little troops the Milanese still have left, no?
Also, if I remember correctly, each ship may ferry two regiments and 6 regiments should be more than enough to crush them, especially if we send one fleet forward to scout out their defenses.
If we end up not wanting the two islands as castles, we may well expand them into flourishing island trade posts with links to most other regions. [OOC: Those islands converted to towns can give ~3k-4k on vhigh taxes at minor city level already]
It is not a question of difficulties, Otto, it is a question of finances. As you have said yourself, the Milanese island settlements will have to be converted to towns before they can become prosperous. This will take many years and thousands upon thousands of florins before the Reich even begins to see a return on its investments. I find it unlikely that these places would even make up the costs of converting them and constructing trade facilities before the next election for Chancellor.
Contrast this with Venice, which is already the most prosperous trading city in all of Christendom, Zagreb, a well developed city in its own right, and Ragusa, a castle of a quality to rival any in the Reich. These places will immediately bring wealth to the Reich, while the Milanese islands will only drain the Reich further for many years to come. This is simply poor economics, especially if we can obtain tribute from the Milanese as well!
If we cannot obtain a ceasefire on favorable terms, Edict 5.15 does not require that we sign one at all. However even in that situation it is still in our best interests to delay any move on the islands until the other fronts have been stabilized and the treasury reinforced, for the same reasons as before.
Receiving summary after summary from his team of lawyers the 2nd Electors face begins to frown
Well...if these are the summaries, then god knows how the rest of you deal with all this information...
...still, I'm never lost for words normally.
My Lords, as per bloody usual we seem to be trying to pull this Reich in 5 different directions at once.
Having seen the troop compositions I'm totally bloody committed to saying that taking an offensive war to any more that ONE country at this time is totally irresponsible.
Given the Ducal Armies will be created in one form or another it seems totally unrealistic to pursue more than one offensive campaign at this time.
We should allow the House Armies to be created and for this Diet session PICK ONE nation to attack with our fifth standing army.
What say you all?
Likewise, our Kaiser reluctance to support sections 6 to 9 of the Amendment 5.1 would effectively mean a Ducal army could consist of one regiment.
NOT what anyone had in mind I'm sure.
Hell Mandorf, I'm a fair man...I'll second edict 5.15
At this point one of his Lawyers leans down and whispers into the 2nd Electors ear, looking back at the assembled nobles he slams his fist onto the benches in frustration
CHRIST ON THE CROSS!! This is what I'm talking about!!
I second edict 5.15. We should punish those who attack us, certainly, but we can not afford to spend the better part of a decade pursuing every last remnant of their nation. Our few available troops are needed more urgently in at least two other wars, in addition to the requirements posed by new household armies should the charter amendment pass. The last thing we need then, is to send valuable troops to sail the seas looking for more enemies.
I will also second Charter amendment 5.2. Unless we slow down the flow of new edicts, we'll have to move soldiers away from the front, to act as scribes for us.
stands to speak
I must say i would support Admendment 5.2...
Also... I will say this, and do so with out an Edict... i dont know what number have been proposed... and i havent even read them all yet... anyways... I must express a concern over Poland... we have proposed edicts to attack them... but maybe we should push this further... into oblivion... with-in the next chancelership... this would free up thousands of men to fight elsewhere... now... this is an idea not an Edict... so with that said I must continue to another topic...
I must leave this Diet... i apologize to my most beloved conutry men... but i have urgent matters... family wise... my wife is... well take a guess at that one... laughs and wish to be there...
i will be gone for atleast the next three days... I hope i can make it back before the voting...
so once more... i must leave this diet and its mass of edicts... for a less paper-clutered area...
Good-bye
bows to the asembled royalty... and walks out
Maximillian makes a fine point regarding the Milaneseislands. Although the people of Milan will remain a thorn in our side for years to come should they be spared, it does not make financial sense to assault them. To do so requires the diversion of troops from the front against the Venetians who are currently much more of a threat and those two insignificant islands will leech off much resources before they will become of use.
Furthermore, the Sicilians have always expressed interest in those two islands as well as the Moors. Should those two islands be occupied not only will we waste money trying to make them profitable, but also valuble troops must be wasted to garrison and protect those islands from aggressive behavior coming from other nations.
Excellent point by the Elector of Swabia. Defending the islands after a conquest may not hold their value. I feel the large army on the mainland is the immediate threat to be removed and enhance the security of our cities in Northern Italy.
Fellow electors, I would like to ask for another seconder for edict 5.8, to allow training of two assassins for the Reich. With 5.16 having two seconders, this would not be possible without the support of 5.8 as well.
Prinz Henry: I side with Manfred in opposing the use of assassins as unchivalrous. I fear that if we begin to use such cut throats, the reputation of our kingdom will suffer and my father's chivalry will be undermined as he is viewed with dread.
Sigismund der Furchtlose jumps up and hurridly addresses the Diet.
Mein electors, would we stoop so low as to murder our enemies? Why would we do so when we can kill them in a fair fight. I will have any part in this dishonour.
Sigismund resumes his seat.
There are enemies to the Reich that we cannot face in honorable battle, Count Sigismund. Potentially hostile agents such as spies, diplomats, merchants, assassins and, lest we forget, Inquisitors can harm us.
The Prinz's encounter with the last has already prompted this Diet to pass:
Charter Amendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.
I believe this was proposed by the Prinz himself. I too would rather destroy our enemies on the field of battle, but sometimes our only option is a knife in the dark. The Diet must not turn away from subjects it deems distasteful if they are necessary for the defense of the Reich.
I second edict 5.8.
Edit: I also second edict 5.17
My lords.
Sigismund der Furchtlose rises to his feet and address the assembled Diet.
Mein electors, I will now give mein humble opinion on the proposed edicts.
Edict 5.1: I agree. The English and Russians may be able to assist us in our wars.
Edict 5.2: I disagree with this motion. While I was Chancellor, I was unable to quash numerous rebellions due to the lack of vetern soldiers in the heart of the Reich. We cannot allow these rebellions to go unpunished.
Edict 5.3: I heartily agree with this edict. Those rebellious knaves and villeins have been a thorn in the Reich's side for too long. Delendo est Mediolanium!
Edict 5.4: I cannot accept this. Venice also controls Durazzo, and I cannot see why expanding into Greece is in the Reich's best interests.
Edict 5.5: This is unachieveable and I would not burden our Chancellor with an impossible task.
Edict 5.7: Though I am a pious man, I cannot agree to spending more on the Church while the Reich is in danger.
Edict 5.8: I abhor assassination in general and I would prefer that we used generals rathers than lowly scoundrels to do our work for us.
Edict 5.9: I agree, although I urge caution. We are not prepared for a large offensive against the Poles. Perhaps we should take Magdeburg and then reconsider the situation?
Edict 5.10: This is a commendable edict. The Hungarians could prove a bother to Venetians, while keeping on their good side also protects Vienna.
Edict 5.11: In light of private discussions with mein Duke, Prinz Henry, I have decided to withdraw this edict.
Edict 5.12: Although I chafe at being defensive, I agree with Prinz Henry that caution is the wiser policy here. We cannot attack everywhere at once.
Edict 5.13: I agree wholeheartedly. we cannot allow large bodies of enemy soldiers loot and pillage our provinces.
Edict 5.14: Although a good suggestion, I doubt we can send a diplomat to Scotland this term. Perhaps it could be achieved in another term?
Edict 5.15: This is folly! Would we acknowledge these rebels? That would only lead to futher rebellion.
Edict 5.16: I reluctantly agree to this ecdict. However, I would not see innocent diplomants murdered, only enemy leaders.
Edict 5.17: While I agree to a war against His Holiness, murdering him would bring the shame and horror of all Europe upon our heads.
Edict 5.18: I disagree. I do not think that Dukes and Counts ought to be told how to develop their lands.
Edict 5.19: I disagree here. We need diplomats constantly, being at the crossroads of Europe.
Edict 5.20: I agree and second this proposal. The Reich must rule the waters as well as the land.
Edict 5.21: Why ought we waste our wealth on those who are not our friends?
Edict 5.22: I disagree. There is not point being friends with the Fatimids
Edict 5.23: It is a worrth proposal. I shall decide my opinion in due course.
Edict 5.24: This is ridiculous! Would you have us bow to the every whim of Rome?
Edict 5.25: I agree, but I am worried about the state of defence of Vienna.
Edict 5.26: I disagree. Otto von Kassel is quite capable of storming Venice. Considering he is at the lagoons already, it is but a waste of time sendind for Leopold.
Edict 5.27: This is a good proposal. I support it.
Edict 5.28: I disagree. Vienna must not be favoured over other cities.
Edict 5.29: I disagree. This is exactly the same as Edict 5.21.
Charter Ammendment 5.1: I agree. This shall give the Duke's their due rights.
Charter Ammendment 5.2: At last I can have peace during Diet discussions. I most heartily agree.
Sigismund gulps down some beer as he sits down exhausted.
Prinz Henri: So as to keep Sunday a day of rest, I will close the Diet this evening at 7pm UK time. There will then be a 48 hour period of voting.
I am seconding the Charter Amendment 5.3 proposed by Maximillan von Mandorf:
The above amendment requires one additional seconder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tincow
With voting commencing soon I would second Charter Amendment 5.3 also, but I believe there are still some misconceptions about its content (OOC: see my post in the OOC-thread). Also before I settle let me give you my views to Chancellor's Sigismund comments especially on the Edicts proposed by me.
I fear I may have been misunderstood regarding the motivation behind Edict 5.26. I agree that Otto von Kassel is the better candidate for this task, I only feared that if his mission got delayed due to the Milanese activities near Florence, a backup plan would be in order as now is the time to strike at Venice! Now when they're weakende we have to make our move!
I ask all Electors to support all Edicts enforcing a quick and decisive blow against those traitors, including Edict 5.4 ,5.25, and 5.26!
Also Edict 5.28 is not intended to favour Vienna over any other cities, but instead aims at the fact that like previous Chancellor Sigismund I fear for the defence of the Austrian capital. We need a capable general that leads our forces against Venice, but at the same time we can not leave Vienna unprotected. The House of Austria can neither claim as many generals as other Houses, nor does it have the comfort of owning provinces in our heartland, where a low garrison could be tolerated. If we disregard Vienna this would give the Hungarians an incentive to attacking us. This would not only open another war front but also cost the Reich her most prosperous city and more importantly it would cost me my capital!
Prinz Henry: Duke Leopold makes a valid point about Charter Amendment 5.3. I will reword the revision of Rule 5.2 as follows:
Rule 5.2 is revised to state: Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.
I fully support and second Charter Amendment 5.3!
Though the hour is late, there is one matter I feel must be considered before the Diet. I propose edict 5.30: As a demonstration of the price of betrayal and to send a message to all of Europe that the Reich will not be defied, when the city of Venice is taken the populace will be exterminated.
My years in Milan have taught me how difficult a restive population is to keep under control. When Venice is taken we must establish the rule of the Reich with such authority that the city will never dare rebel. This will also allow us to garrison the city with less troops, so that a large part of the assaulting army can continue on campaign.
The curs deserve no mercy, and we will give them none.
I will also second edict 5.26.
Edict 5.30 is seconded! I believe you know what is necessary to deal with traitors Otto von Kassel! The Venetians deserve nothing less.
*nods to von Kassel* I shall second 5.30 for you.
[Prinz Henry]: The 5th Session of the Diet is now closed. Voting will open imminently.
-grmbl wrong thread. delete please-
death to the Venetians is all well and good but consider the need for income from these cities at the same time... death should only be considered if our Venetian slaves fail us
Fourth Elector, I realize the severe punishment we will inflict on Venice might impact the money we will get from the city, but there are considerations besides florins. The Venetians betrayed our alliance, attempted to assault Vienna multiple times, and briefly took Bologna from us. Such insolent oath-breaking deserves a heavy reprisal. I can think of no better way to show the Doge this, than by laying waste to his capital, the foul lair of these vipers.
This will also serve notice to our enemies, those thinking of attacking us, such as France, and even neutral or allied countries, that war with the Reich will only result in death and ruin for them.
The more practical aspects of edict 5.30 are that, once occupied, we will need less troops to garrison Venice, freeing up forces to assist against the Milanese outside Florence, or continuing the assault on the Doge's forces in Zagreb or Ragusa. With the Ducal armies amendment likely to pass, campaign troops will be at a premium while the household armies are being formed.
Yes, the loss of population will effect the economy of Venice, however the buildings and facilities that fuel it will be intact. Good German settlers will replace the vanquished and the city will be prosperous again in a short time.
I consider a short term loss of Florins in exchange for long term stability, strategic flexibility and a resounding message of the superiority of the Reich, a more than fair trade.
Prinz Henry: Extermination of a city is an act of barbarism that should never be countenanced. To recommend it as a form of crowd control is a particularly heinous argument - next we will be arguing that we should kill our old or sick because they take too much food.
Electors - the common people of Venice cannot be blamed for the villainy of their leaders! The men who decided to break their oathe will all be gone from the city by the time we enter - the only ones left will be the ordinary, powerless, people who lack the means to flee our advance, just as they lacked the means to control their craven rulers.
Aside from being an atrocity in itself, extermination will undermine the reputation of our Empire and stain my father's character as a chivalric ruler. To target Venice for this punishment is particularly foolish, given the large income its citizens can obtain from seaborne trade.
I plead with you, are we not a Christian nation? Have we learned nothing from the first coming of our Lord? If by His grace, we obtain stewardship of Venice, we must rule according to His laws or risk His wrath by defying them! To deliberately and cold-bloodedly massacre thousands of Christian men, women and children will be a terrible stain on our character and conscience. All men of piety must reject this monstrous proposal!
The Venetians have been excommunicated, Prinz Henry, and so are outside the protection of the Church. They are oath-breakers and must be broken themselves.
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.
I apologize for my Latin, it is rusty, the translation is "Kill them all. God will know His own".
No Christian babe is ever outside the protection of God, even if his Lord has been excommunicated. Extermination of innocent Christian women and children is a crime against the Heavens themselves. If you wish to kill the unarmed, perhaps you should take up the Cross and march eastwards. There are many heathens there that you can put to the sword without incurring the wrath of God.
I retract my statement condemning the elimination of excess population within Venice. We will indeed save money via the elimination of a larger garrison. In regards to the death of innocents that Mandorf says are protected by god i say "Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet", Kill them all. God will recognize his own.
We should show no mercy to those heathens. They are outside of Gods favor for a reason and should be taught a lesson.