U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

i can see why you heard that in a pub, because i feel like i need to get drunk after that joke. :sick:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Was that when the Spanish troops had been sent to Iraq against the wishes of the vast majority of the electorate ?
Thats democracy Tuff

What right has america got to tell another country who it can sell stuff to ?

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and spain may well pay a price. that's life.

every right. the other actor doesn't have to listen, but again there may be a price to be paid........

how serious is this 70 odd bishops denouncing Biden?
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/gerald_..._catholic_vote

I'm not surprised. Of course the Pro-Life church is going to denounce the Pro-Choice Biden.

but is it serious, the catholic vote is important in all US elections it would appear........?

There is still a substantial Catholic vote in working class areas (Irish immigrants, etc) from what I have read in the past. Whether they will vote for a Democrat on economic issues or for the Republican on social issues is another question.

You can't make this stuff up...

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MONTPELIER (AP) — Rep. Peter Welch, D-Vt., calls himself a proud Democrat, but says he'll accept the Republican congressional nomination.

Welch says he was surprised to receive enough write-in votes on Republican ballots to secure the nomination of a party that didn't put up a candidate of its own.

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My bet - Welch overcomes Welch in a tight race in November :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Furunculu5

but is it serious, the catholic vote is important in all US elections it would appear........?

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Not hugely significant on its face. US Catholics are accustomed to their clergy denouncing this, that, the other thing, and him/her - and then doing/voting as they see fit. Being Catholic isn't the same demograph is has been in the past, except as part of another demograph: blue-collar, working class.

OTOH: For the conspiracy theorists out there: this could be the beginning of a behind-the-scenes "Dump Joe, Pick Hil" move. If Sen Biden suddenly develops a 'personal problem' that requires his immediate, focused attention... expect a Biden dropout, Hilary to the rescue, and an Obama slam-dunk in November.

Jaysus. Apparently McCain as another one of those whose geography is sub standard. He's either stupid or too old for the ticket.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

You can't make this stuff up...

My bet - Welch overcomes Welch in a tight race in November :laugh4:

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It's hard to imagine why we would have extremely low turnout, there was only one person up for 99% of slots in the major party primaries and most slots weren't filled by the third parties...

Still I think this sort of thing has happened a couple of times before in Vermont. We're a funky state. I believe the democrats tried to get Bernie Sanders (an extremely successful socialist senator) to accept their nomination, but he did decline in the end.

A McCain supporter trashes Senator John S. McCain on his recent economic pronouncements.

There’s so much stupidity here, it’s hard to know where to begin.

Peggy Noonan reads my mind.

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The economic crisis brings a new question, unarticulated so far but there, and I know because when I mention it to people they go off like rockets. It is: Do you worry that neither of them is up to it? Up to the job in general? Is either Mr. McCain or Mr. Obama actually up to getting us through this and other challenges? I haven't heard a single person say, "Yes, my guy is the answer." A lot of shrugging is going on out there. This is a read not only on the men but on the moment.

The overarching political question: In a time of heightened anxiety, will people inevitably lean toward the older congressional vet, the guy who's been around forever? Why take a chance on the new, young man at a time of crisis? Wouldn't that be akin to injecting an unstable element into an unstable environment? There's a lot at stake.

Or will people have the opposite reaction? I've had it, the system has been allowed to corrode and collapse under seven years of Republican stewardship. Throw the bums out. We need change. Obama may not be experienced, but that may help him cut through. He's not compromised.

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Originally Posted by Furunculu5

how serious is this 70 odd bishops denouncing Biden?
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/gerald_..._catholic_vote

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More serious than CA thinks, I believe. The Catholic Church is becoming more united is condemning the lies Biden and other Catholic (democratic) politicians say to excuse their support for abortion.

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Archbishop Chaput of Denver had already announced Biden should not receive communion because of his pro-abortion views. Defiantly, Biden took communion in his home parish in Delaware in late August. On September 2 the Bishop of Scranton, Pennsylvania (a crucial swing state) banned him from communion in his diocese. That is effective excommunication. Then came the crucial provocation. On NBC's Meet the Press programme on September 7 Biden grossly misrepresented the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion and audaciously cited St Thomas Aquinas in his own cause.

That did it. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi had already done the same thing on the same programme, in her instance citing St Augustine. Even the torpid US bishops could not have false doctrine glibly broadcast by public figures, misleading their flock. So the counterattack described here last week began, culminating in a statement from the US Bishops' Conference.

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CR

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

More serious than CA thinks, I believe. The Catholic Church is becoming more united is condemning the lies Biden and other Catholic (democratic) politicians say to excuse their support for abortion.



CR

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As fundamentally opposed to abortion as I am, Senator Joseph Biden has a more moderate record than his degenerate co-conspirators. He also understands that he is in a state of sin because of his position to the Church, but nonetheless supports abortion for his secular constituency.

I am a pro-life Catholic and I can't condemn him as harshly as some. Politicians need to be rewarded for attempting to approach a middle ground - even though a true middle ground would be overturning Roe and Doe and pursuing Federal or State level abortion legislation.

I can't join in the "outright lies" condemnation. He should simply avoid theological discussions as a Senator. I won't vote for his ticket because I disagree with their policies, not because he is a half-assed Catholic.

If he was pro-abortion but understood that Roe v Wade needed to go, I would be likely to vote for him. Pro-abortion supreme court justices on the are fine, unless they hallucinate abortion rights in the constitution - which is where the major problems began.

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every right. the other actor doesn't have to listen, but again there may be a price to be paid........

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oh there was a price , the Spanish had to sell the version which didn't have American parts which meant they got more money , and then America looked at the plane that didn't have American parts decided it was better than the other one so bought some which meant the spanish got more money again :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Now of course there is also another price to pay , the US decided that the Spanish planes were so much better that it might be worth looking at some more of the companies products , and they put in another order for new tankers .:yes:
But of course there is a price to pay , as in the american firms that had tankers for sale didn't like it and cried foul ...which results in the orders being placed for the crappier American model which means your military has to pay the price by recieving second rate equipment .
So you see Furunculus , when they want to play silly buggers you have to pay too .

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

The Catholic Church is becoming more united is condemning the lies Senator Joseph Biden and other Catholic (democratic) politicians say to excuse their support for abortion.

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Indeed. It gets interesting quickly once you smash that church/state dichotomy:

Pepperdine law professor Douglas Kmiec says he was denied communion because he supports Barack Obama, a candidate who backs abortion rights.

Kmiec, the former dean at Catholic University law school, told National Public Radio that he was asked to speak at a church about why he supported the candidate. Before the speech, the priest denounced Kmiec, saying those who support pro-choice candidates were “participating in a grave moral evil,” Kmiec said.

The priest held a mass and when Kmiec presented himself for communion, the priest shook his head from left to right. "I said to him, 'I think you're making a serious mistake, Father,' and he said, 'I don't think I've made any mistake,' ” Kmiec told NPR. Kmiec said his wife left the church in tears.

Oh please. This has nothing to do with the separation of church and state.

The outcry against Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi and Senator Joseph Biden was because they attempted to justify support for abortion through Catholic theology. They got shut down for their remarks, and rightfully so, because the Church is clear about their teachings and Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi and Senator Joseph Biden were wrong.

CR

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Originally Posted by Furunculu5

and spain may well pay a price.

the other actor doesn't have to listen, but again there may be a price to be paid........

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A price to be paid? Hah! Even President George W. Bush learned that the price to be paid will be paid as much by the Americans as their allies.

I salute Spain for standing up to this sort of bullying. Spain will pay the price next time they're threatened? Last time their freedom really was threatened, US power politics led to military and financial support to Generalissimo Francisco Paulino Hermenegildo Teódulo Franco y Bahamonde. That is Spanish experience with Anglosaxon power politics, and 'prices to be paid'. Like the whole Hispanic world, they are all too aware of the tension in foreign policy between Anglo democracy and Anglo realpolitik.

If you want to deal with the Spanish, ask them nicely. Few nations in Europe are as attached to democracy and as aware of the need to spread it as the Spanish. As to the other face of Anglo foreign policy, nope, they've had a taste of it themselves, and are culturally too aware of it through their ties with Spanish America. Spain is a big, mature democracy by now. Lest the world missed it, their GDP overtook Canada's in size several years ago. Generalissimo Francisco Paulino Hermenegildo Teódulo Franco y Bahamonde is dead, they don't need to take daisy from the Anglosaxons anymore. Certainly not from the British, this eight year old schoolyard bully who threatens other eight year olds with his friend, the big twelve year old.

Haughtiness and insults don't work with the Spanish, then they're out - which, by Spanish standards, was a very polite and restrained reaction. They've cut off people's cojones for less. Lies and deceit don't work with them either. Aznar went to Washington. Spain tried to work with America, to take American interests into account. But, President George W. Bush gave Aznar nothing to work with, except stubborness and snubbery.
'The account offered a rare glimpse of how President George W. Bush interacted with a trusted foreign leader, offering blunt assessments and showing a determination that led even Prime Minister José María Aznar López, a close ally on Iraq, to ask that President George W. Bush show "a little more patience" in the march toward war. President George W. Bush expressed anger and irritation at those governments that disagreed with him, warning that they would pay a price. '

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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the note published yesterday by Spain’s El País of a conversation which occurred between President George W. Bush and then-Prime Minister José Maria Aznar López is a major further breakthrough in understanding the attitude of President George W. Bush in the weeks just preceding the invasion of Iraq. The document is not quite as damning at the Downing Street papers, but it does tend to reinforce the major thrust of the British notes on President George W. Bush’s pre-invasion rants.

It is to be stressed that, as was the case with the British documents, this note is particularly credible in that it was recorded by a close ally which was publicly committed to supporting, and did support, President George W. Bush in his drive against Iraq.

What emerges is a president full of swagger noting how he will use the great resources of the United States to press other nations (specifically here: members of the Security Council) into line in upcoming votes. He is also resolved to proceed with the invasion no matter what the Security Council does, and no matter what President Saddam Hussein Abd al-Majid al-Tikriti does. He feigns certitude about his conclusions on President Saddam Hussein Abd al-Majid al-Tikriti's involvement with WMD programs—though we now know that the intelligence community had come to discount the supposed evidence for President Saddam Hussein Abd al-Majid al-Tikriti's pursuit of WMDs at the time. His convictions are delusional, or they are mere pretense.

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This is the President George W. Bush that at length Americans have come to understand: a man who is absolutely certain about things on which he is absolutely wrong. Prime Minister José Maria Aznar López's saving grace was his skepticism and adhesion to reason. He emerges from the discussion as a concerned friend trying tactfully to pull a friend back from the brink of disaster. He failed, of course, because once President George W. Bush has made up his mind, he does not listen—not even to his friends. He really has all the hallmarks of a disastrous leader.

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Still Prime Minister José Maria Aznar López banked his political future on trusting Washington. Which cost him dearly. And when it became clear that besides bullying, Washington had also blatantly lied to its allies too, Spain was out. Spain is well-determined to stand up for democracy. But it doesn't want a life insurance from the Americans at all costs, unlike President George Bush I's closest friends: the Polish ultra-nationalists, the Bulgarian mobsters, the Georgian autocrat. And those other assorted clowns of Vice President Richard Cheney's 'New Europe'. :no:

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Spain's Socialist Party prime minister-elect says he will pull troops out of Iraq - unless the UN takes charge. Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said: "The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation of Iraq is a disaster."

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Prime Minister Zapatero said President Bush and UK Prime Minister Tony Blair needed to "engage in some self-criticism" over their decision to invade Iraq.

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But more importantly, the world has moved on. Self-reflection learned the Europeans that antagonism is not the way an alliance can function. Washington in turn realises the very same thing. Why anybody on either side of the Atlantic still wants to be stuck in a 2003 mindset, is beyond me. It doesn't serve NATO, it doesn't serve Britain, it doesn't serve democracy, it doesn't serve any protection from terrorism. It serves..what really?

Sorry for dragging this off-topic, but speaking of Aznar, why not share the latest rumors in a bid to liven up this thread with political sensationalism, Euro-style.

Aznar knocks up French minister

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short but plucky Jose Maria Aznar, (65 years - married - 2 children) former PM of Spain, friend and ally of Bush and rightwing thinktanker is indeed the mystery expectant father to the French minister of Justice, (48 years single) Rachida Dati's, baby.

Rachida had announced her surprise pregnancy earlier this week but declined to name the daddy thus sparking speculation.

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Aznar denies everything. Me, I still have a tenner on Sarko being the father. We'll have to wait and see what the baby looks like...

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Sorry for dragging this off-topic, but speaking of Aznar, why not share the latest rumors in a bid to liven up this thread with political sensationalism, Euro-style.

Aznar knocks up French minister
Aznar denies everything. Me, I still have a tenner on Sarko being the father. We'll have to wait and see what the baby looks like...

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I want to be a European politician. You get to have relations with whomever you want and face no repercussions. What a great place.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

eh the killing of wolves has to do with tourism and hunting. I would compare it to Texas Coyotes but with all the ranches and farmland down here its a different situation. I dont really care that an excess wolf population is being killed I find it disturbing that she would want to introduce a bill for a severed foreleg thats weird.

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Actually, it's more about wildlife population control. In Alaska, there are people who actually depend on moose hunting for food. If the wolf population gets too high, or the moose population gets too low, some of the predators have to be killed off to make sure there are enough for people to hunt without doing permanent damage.

Read about it here. I'm sure being shot to death isn't much fun for the wolves- but neither is starvation. Similarly, I imagine the moose don't much like being ripped to pieces by wolves, but that's life. :yes:

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It serves..what really?

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Its a cycle Louis , or rather a zig-zag of bollox .
It goes .....help us , help us or else , help us please , we don't need your help , your country is crap anyway , why won't you help us , you will be sorry , your country is really crap , whats it got to do with your country anyway , help us , why won't you help us , its all your fault we are in this mess , help ....

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You get to have relations with whomever you want and face no repercussions.

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Not really , Aznar had relations with Bush and it cost him his job .~;)

This was interesting news to me:

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Top Hillary Clinton fundraiser and member of the Democratic National Committee's Platform Committee Lynn Forester de Rothschild endorsed Republican presidential nominee John McCain on Wednesday.

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How long til they kick her off the Platform Committee?

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How long til they kick her off the Platform Committee?

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Interesting question there Xiahou .
How do you kick someone off a committee if they leave the commitee ?:inquisitive:

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from the article
a position she said on Wednesday that she will now abdicate.

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I think this is really cool! MCCain, Obama discuss science.

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In November, 2007, a small group of six citizens - two screenwriters, a physicist, a marine biologist, a philosopher and a science journalist - began working to restore science and innovation to America’s political dialogue. They called themselves Science Debate 2008, and they called for a presidential debate on science. The call tapped a wellspring of concern over the state of American science.

Within weeks, more than 38,000 scientists, engineers, and other concerned Americans signed on, including nearly every major American science organization, dozens of Nobel laureates, elected officials and business leaders, and the presidents of over 100 major American universities.

Science Debate 2008 worked with the leading organizations listed to craft the top 14 questions the candidates should answer. These questions are broad enough to allow for wide variations in response, but they are specific enough to help guide the discussion toward many of the largest and most important unresolved challenges currently facing the United States.

The Questions and Answers, a Side by Side Comparison

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*Warning. Link contains serious issues concerning American enterprise and science*


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Meanwhile in Palin news:

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The Republicans today effectively won their battle to delay the findings of the Troopergate investigation into Sarah Palin until after the White House election on November 4.

Her husband, Todd, and other witnesses signalled late yesterday they would ignore subpoenas demanding they attend an Alaska senate judiciary hearing into the affair in Anchorage today.

One of the Democrats on the committee, Bill Wielechowski, admitted that Todd Palin and the others could continue to refuse to testify for months without facing a penalty.

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Ignoring subpoenas? Who do they think they are, Bush 43 staffers?

Meanwhile, a tart and enjoyable column about Alaskanomics:

Of the 50 states, Alaska ranks No. 1 in taxes per resident and No. 1 in spending per resident. Its tax burden per resident is 2 1/2 times the national average; its spending, more than double. The trick is that Alaska's government spends money on its own citizens and taxes the rest of us to pay for it. [...]

Alaska also ranks No. 1, year after year, in money it sucks in from Washington. In 2005 (the most recent figures), according to the Tax Foundation, Alaska ranked 18th in federal taxes paid per resident ($5,434) but first in federal spending received per resident ($13,950). Its ratio of federal spending received to federal taxes paid ranks third among the 50 states, and in the absolute amount it receives from Washington over and above the amount it sends to Washington, Alaska ranks No. 1.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I think this is really cool! MCCain, Obama discuss science.

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I think they both did well. They each had their good points and not so good points. Overall I think Obama had answers that were a little more thought out, but it was not by much. I think they were both weak on "Water". I liked McCain's views on space more then Obama's.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

More serious than CA thinks, I believe. The Catholic Church is becoming more united is condemning the lies Biden and other Catholic (democratic) politicians say to excuse their support for abortion.

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The Church is, yes. However a recent national Quinnipiac Poll shows Obama with a 51-42 lead with Catholics.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

However a recent national Quinnipiac Poll shows Obama with a 51-42 lead with Catholics.

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Quick! Deny them all Communion! Cast them from the Church!

I wonder what our leading energy expert has to say about the exportation of oil?

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Originally Posted by Could possibly be president Palin

Oil and coal? Of course, it's a fungible commodity and they don't flag, you know, the molecules, where it's going and where it's not. But in the sense of the Congress today, they know that there are very, very hungry domestic markets that need that oil first. So, I believe that what Congress is going to do, also, is not to allow the export bans to such a degree that it's Americans that get stuck to holding the bag without the energy source that is produced here, pumped here. It's got to flow into our domestic markets first.

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