Casual december game

i had a really shit day at work so not super motivated to be around in anything social with people currently. Will try after recollecting myself though, and will do my best to not let it peter into the thread but if theres any snark thats why

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Originally Posted by Renata

I gonna keep harping on this but I don't think that that kind of blatantly obvious hard defense of a town player who other people are reading as scum is about pocketing that player at all. It's about looking reasonable or correct or something when that player dies and flips town. If one of them flips mafia and you immediately start going after the other for this reason alone with no additional justification I'm probably not arguing too hard, because it could be correct (nobody else is actually bound by my beliefs about how they're going play), but I am side-eyeing the hell out of you if you're wrong. Ladd spew or no Ladd spew. Stop insisting on something being certain when it's not. From someone who likes to talk about "nuance" you have none here. Why?

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I agree that that is a scum tactic, but I don't think Dya would use it here on Amy. Tho I think I saw her start walk back the shield a bit earlier today which works with the approach I am thinking of.

The only reason why I keep "insisting" on it, after my initial post where I laid out my thoughts, is because people keep asking me about it. I have not discredited any Amy solo or Dya solo case just because I cannot be sure. I am not trying to stop those reads. But I can still have that thought.

I have seen Dya play it like this and thats why I am not using much nuance on this matter. It has saved me from shame twice to trust their tone reads. I have also a memory of seeing them do this as scum towards a scum mate. But I havent seen them use their famous tone reads to clear a villa when they are scumming.

And it is fine that you would side-eye me. People usually side-eye me when I present the reads I feel sure of because I am acting so confident, then they misyeet me and in post game it is revealed that I was correct all along tbh. You going so hard against this makes me feel like I am correct on this one too and it makes me side-eye you tbh

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Originally Posted by Vulgard

I kinda feel like Amy is too low-effort to be a wolf. This is a bad read, but it's on my mind.
@Boquise You sure Amy/dya is the same alignment? I feel like there's a reasonable chance dya is a wolf and Amy isn't.

I'm also not opposed to voting Kage. His whole thing with the reading of pushes felt like busywork.

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I feel 75% sure rn. It is more interesting how this thought of mine is affecting the thread dynamics tbh. Dya seemed to walk back the shield a bit and that changes things.
Amy can definitely low-effort as scum, or pretend to low-effort but be active in wolf chat.

starting to work on ladd now

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Originally Posted by Csargo

I was wrong, Visor already called me out on that. It's also tainted cause dolby, so it still would have been wrong anyways.

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But I passed it over the first time, and it seems no one other than Visor and Logic had something to say about it, both now being dead. What I'm trying to discern without bias is whether it signals something about mindset, now that the alignments of Visor and Logic are known, as well as that Mafia almost certainly never felt at threat throughout D1 (other than general Pizza anxiety perhaps).

Do you have any thoughts about Taffy?

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Originally Posted by Csargo

:sweatdrop:

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Sure, hence wildcarding them - and no one has really argued that they can't fit into most teams. If the game course hews to a 'standard' schedule, with no extra deaths, then we have up to five day phases (including today) and 4 night. Assuming doctor fails, the structure of the NK sheet ought to be basically predictable. Not enough time to brute force a likely mafia in Kage-Amp, easily fatal if both are just lurkers. A teammate's deaths will usually offer more info on Kage/Amp than the other way around, by volume of content.

Hence why they should be deprioritized (and Kage-Amp together very rarely, all with dya never).

Relatedly, bad news: I'm going to be completely unavailable at the end of the week, meaning the second half of D5.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

starting to work on ladd now



But I passed it over the first time, and it seems no one other than Visor and Logic had something to say about it, both now being dead. What I'm trying to discern without bias is whether it signals something about mindset, now that the alignments of Visor and Logic are known, as well as that Mafia almost certainly never felt at threat throughout D1 (other than general Pizza anxiety perhaps).

Do you have any thoughts about Taffy?



Sure, hence wildcarding them - and no one has really argued that they can't fit into most teams. If the game course hews to a 'standard' schedule, with no extra deaths, then we have up to five day phases (including today) and 4 night. Assuming doctor fails, the structure of the NK sheet ought to be basically predictable. Not enough time to brute force a likely mafia in Kage-Amp, easily fatal if both are just lurkers. A teammate's deaths will usually offer more info on Kage/Amp than the other way around, by volume of content.

Hence why they should be deprioritized (and Kage-Amp together very rarely, all with dya never).

Relatedly, bad news: I'm going to be completely unavailable at the end of the week, meaning the second half of D5.

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I'm pretty sure I used a couple 'think' and 'feels' post in Visor iso of that game, and painted that as uncertainty to prove my point in the argument. I don't think I gain anything for doing it, but read into it what you will.

Taffy can be a woof. I think the treatment of Visor's slot looks less like a townie trying to solve an alignment of a person and more I just don't want to deal with them imo. I can see Visor's perspective, but just feel like it was partially valid.

taffy is a wolf because there is no attitude, just treading water, no push, no sassitude, just posting reasonable sounding thinsg while not moving the game state forward

Felt like the bolded were true yesterday when I was reading Taffy's iso. Think the other stuff was there and makes it just partially accurate.

Kage's spoken about a handful of people, voting hk, calling ladd/Taffy town, and Visor gray from what I remember. I think ladd also offered you/Kage up as people who should have been getting pressured, so idk what to make of it.

Kage's townreads were a result of Visor question iirc, they weren't just brought up naturally.

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Originally Posted by Csargo

I'm pretty sure I used a couple 'think' and 'feels' post in Visor iso of that game, and painted that as uncertainty to prove my point in the argument. I don't think I gain anything for doing it, but read into it what you will.

Taffy can be a woof. I think the treatment of Visor's slot looks less like a townie trying to solve an alignment of a person and more I just don't want to deal with them imo. I can see Visor's perspective, but just feel like it was partially valid.

Visor quote:

Quote:

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taffy is a wolf because there is no attitude, just treading water, no push, no sassitude, just posting reasonable sounding thinsg while not moving the game state forward

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Felt like the bolded were true yesterday when I was reading Taffy's iso. Think the other stuff was there and makes it just partially accurate.

Kage's spoken about a handful of people, voting hk, calling ladd/Taffy town, and Visor gray from what I remember. I think ladd also offered you/Kage up as people who should have been getting pressured, so idk what to make of it.

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Kage stuff is also just separate

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Originally Posted by Renata

I'm not going to be here but somebody really needs to read Taffy in full. She's disappearing otherwise and that's not good. People are talking about her but nobody is doing real work.

I don't have any solid reads. Hollowkatt, Dyachei, Csargo (in that order) remain bottom of my PoE, but I haven't been able to keep up well and don't feel super informed. I don't remember anything Kage has done that feels solid town. Taffy has, but I liked Ladd's post in a vacuum too. I don't know about Monty at all and am just hoping that future flips might help there.

I did a post on Hollowkatt yesterday that needs looking at to see if it still holds up. I don't know if the obvious irritation over Monty's Boquise-HK pairing is meaningful, but I think the back-off after being called out on it might be. I also didn't like the way he projected that he hadn't been aware of Ladd's flip, by going through previous posts in strict chronological order. Bias speaking for sure but that felt artificial.

vote: Dyachei like I said, hope to be back before end of day.

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can you tell me how to know the future without knowing the future? thanks in advance (or I guess in the past considering you already knew I was going to say this)

HK where's your head at currently?

I'm at least halfway done with the ladd ISO.

Maybe another hour.


What we can say is that dya is the player that ladd has some of the oddest positions around, and is the one living player he repeatedly hard-defends (where other defenses are more hedgy). IIRC all the people ladd has hard pushed/SRed are dead townies. So it's reasonable to oust dya here.

The ISO does make me feel worse about Boq however.

I think I'll just trust Renata.

Is Amp really the one player ladd SRed that truly is his partner, or was he being consistent and they were all townies? (I also note that in between Vulgard's reveal and the ladd flip is when Boq insisted that dya-Amy always same alignment.)

BTW apologies to Vulgard for not reading parts of his reveal post today more carefully.

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Originally Posted by Boquise

Placing my vote on someone I actually think is more close to how they approach games as scum than as town. Dya's protection is there, and I do think that makes Dya and Amy always the same alignment.

wolf!Dya would not protect town!Amy for too long because Amy is an easy misyeet in that case, and I reckon Dya as a wolf would want to cash in protecting Amy eventually.

I do not think town!Dya would misread wolf!Amy.

Hence both are either wolves or town together tbh.

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I don't think there is any meta in the world that could allow dya to singlehandedly drive their team to ignore Logic/Visor/Ender MLs, among others. The timeline for Amy ML is just not ripe, so the rejection of m-Dya/t-Amp isn't valid.
@Vulgard

How cool would it be if Pizza artificially engineered suspicion of Vulgard as a cover for transferring his power all along? Sufficiently fancy?

I'm actually surprised Pizza never saw a single scummy post from ladd, when ladd spent a lot of time being passive-aggressive around Pizza and judging players on how they interacted with Pizza. Feels like this specifically breaks one of Pizza's stated rules, including as he himself described them D1.

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Originally Posted by Vulgard

I kinda feel like Amy is too low-effort to be a wolf. This is a bad read, but it's on my mind.
@Boquise You sure Amy/dya is the same alignment? I feel like there's a reasonable chance dya is a wolf and Amy isn't.

I'm also not opposed to voting Kage. His whole thing with the reading of pushes felt like busywork.

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i'd be low effort here as a wolf too, i promise

I fucking love the manageable pace of the thread today. This is what Mafia used to be.

Questions again. Is dyachei ladd's top TR because partner, or because like cape and vulgard they're town? Is - excluding Ender - Amy ladd's top SR because she's a townie like all the rest, or is she the partner thrown in the mix for distancing?

Crucial questions.

One point against dya is that though ladd treats them as a top TR, whenever he discussed them in the context of reads in general he slots them with groups of lighter TRs, not outright stating a top town read like with cape or vulgard.

I'm not certain on dya's status, but dya ouster is +++EV over Amy.

I suspect ladd's partners are people he dumps in vague TL buckets with other players, and/or doesn't interact with directly in the thread.

I thought Taffy was ladd's top townread?

Not being able to attend EoDs gets kind of annoying when you know you'll get people's alignment from them. Happened with Logic and I wasn't around for it to switch my vote. I feel like it might happen with some people this EoD, too.

Well, at any rate, I'm not switching my vote. Glgl, you got this.

Dya (2): Ender, Vulgard
Taffy (1): Monty
Monty(1): HK
Csargo (1): Renata
Kage (1): Amy


EOD in 3 hours 10 minutes

Dya (2): Ender, Vulgard
Taffy (1): Monty
Monty(1): HK
Csargo (1): Renata
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I suspect ladd's partners are people he dumps in vague TL buckets with other players, and/or doesn't interact with directly in the thread.

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What Boq calls "player salad."

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Originally Posted by Csargo

I thought Taffy was ladd's top townread?

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Almost got it done. Ugh.

Vulgard!

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Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

Dya (2): Ender, Vulgard
Taffy (1): Monty
Monty(1): HK
Csargo (1): Renata
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha

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Renata voted Dya @Raskolnikov

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Originally Posted by Renata

I'm not going to be here but somebody really needs to read Taffy in full. She's disappearing otherwise and that's not good. People are talking about her but nobody is doing real work.

I don't have any solid reads. Hollowkatt, Dyachei, Csargo (in that order) remain bottom of my PoE, but I haven't been able to keep up well and don't feel super informed. I don't remember anything Kage has done that feels solid town. Taffy has, but I liked Ladd's post in a vacuum too. I don't know about Monty at all and am just hoping that future flips might help there.

I did a post on Hollowkatt yesterday that needs looking at to see if it still holds up. I don't know if the obvious irritation over Monty's Boquise-HK pairing is meaningful, but I think the back-off after being called out on it might be. I also didn't like the way he projected that he hadn't been aware of Ladd's flip, by going through previous posts in strict chronological order. Bias speaking for sure but that felt artificial.

vote: Dyachei like I said, hope to be back before end of day.

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Here

Vote:Taffy

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Originally Posted by Csargo

I thought Taffy was ladd's top townread?

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Yes that's what I remember too.


I wanted to reread today but I only got to about page 34 which is pants. Worse news is I no longer believe in my HK/Montmorency solve.

That leaves me looking for three wolves in Ender/Renata/Dyachei/Csargo and I'm not loving any combination I can make there.

But Boquise/Kagemusha/Ampharos all feel too uninvested to be wolves this game. I know I'm projecting but I'd feel more motivated if I had teammates atp.


I still have other tabs open I wanted to reply to but I'm not sure how many are still relevant now.

Actually I'm getting unsure about a lot of my observations. I'm checking over the document and having to correct mistakes. Also, it needs a lot of formatting to be legible to y'all.

Any remaining errors are my own.

[b]Vote: Taffy

Lmao don't look at that.

Vote: Taffy

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Originally Posted by hollowkatt

I hate this site some times. I know it was early early in the game but no search allows me to see more than 100 posts for a player in a thread. halp plx

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If you know specific words you used in the post that aren't too common you can use the "search thread" function.

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Originally Posted by Csargo

Has Taffy pushed anyone hard in your opinion?

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I realise this question wasn't aimed at me, but I'm more likely to push hard when I'm playing with people I know better because my reads are more confident then.

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Originally Posted by Csargo

I have no idea whether hk and boq are paired, that's not really what I was pointing out. Out of everything that hk's been accused of this game, that seemed to annoy them.

Also no idea what chainsaw means. If it's that the Renata post is a mess, then yeah. My main point on Renata is that, both EoDs look like someone who's concerned with how they're gonna be viewed in the aftermath of it all. If people don't see that, then I'm most likely wrong and Renata is just town.

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A chainsaw defense is when a town votes/makes a case against a wolf and then another wolf votes/makes a case against that town. What I'm saying is that it looked to me like you were casing Renata because you're wolves with HK. It's obviously a weak read and based on preflipping HK, and it's now no longer valid anyway.

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

Vote: Dyachei

I think this I believe more than Amy.

I kinda like Renata a lot but I am noting things.

Boq is just town.

Monty is not w/w with Dyachei but if Dya is town then Monty is definitely someone I'd sus.

Revision of thoughts to happen in the morning.

I'm now collapsing now that I've done a quick check through all of game thread for Ladd interactions

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I probably just missed it Ender but what was that based on?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

No more Pizzagesis. I'm interpreting his death as a WOG.

Sirs.

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What is a WOG?

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Originally Posted by Boquise

yea
amy is my biggest wolf read but I respect Dya's tone reads tbh. There are several examples where they have been correct and I have been wrong. Hence why I have decided that Dya and Amy are always the same alignment tbh

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Sorry for coming back to this after others already have, but I, too, don't think this is necessarily valid for the same reason I didn't think Logic's main reason for scumreading Visor made sense - if you are good at reading someone and others in the game know this, you let your wolfmates push them while you yourself make the correct read imo.

LADD ASSOCIATIONS

NB: I went beyond what I promised and included some people's interactions toward or about ladd. Highlighted text represents what ladd himself was doing/saying, to prevent confusion arising from my format


AMP

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

#745: Amy's reads: uhhh cape and vulgard are probably my strongest townreads. visor and hk maybe a tier below, both mostly off vibes. dya i don't want to kill before i can get a solid read on them, ladd/pizza i kinda just don't want to kill d1 in general

#1161 ladd shooting off reads. Amy is scummy for her posts about Pizza.

#1193: ladd thinks Amy scummy for position on Logic D1, pairs her with Ender, unsure of pairing with Visor.

#1264: Amy's reads post (implicit conditionals on m-Ender): ladd is town and i think my reason for it is kinda stupid. i don't think w!ladd would have any reason to bus w!ender when there are a fair few other suspects with momentum today (e.g. hypothetical v!vulgard, e.g. myself), and in a w!ladd v!ender world i don't think ladd would want to tie my alignment so directly to ender's and risk undermining his wolfread on me when ender flips
"amy surely that isn't the sole thing you're townreading ladd on" idk i think his d1 was a villagery sort of incorrect. i honestly don't think i'm a very good ladd reader, the one other game i've actually played with him he snowed me hard

#1579: From large reads post: amy - refer to my big post+ their wall post feels like a wolf making a huge post to get people off them [...] if [Ender] is a wolf, always kill amy next

#1769: for amy my only fear is dya villa reading them, maybe i should respect dya's read more. but besides that i think they have been wolfy (tho not excessively so) and they fit like a glove in an ender!wolf world

#2112: i could write a poem about why ender and amy are wolves and wolves together

BOQUISE

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First interactions in #430s about posting gifs

#1240: Boq decides to TR ladd and sheep onto Ender because of ladd's posting since #1160, specifically quoting the D1 summary.
also, if amy is a wolf it means i was awesome yesterday tbh

#1555: Ladd says "i can see this [...] kage also kinda fits with literally any team" in response to Boq finding one of Kage's posts scummy.

#1579: From large reads post: upper PoE (mostly villa leans that i don't feel strong enough about)
boq- has done even less than me eheh. but when he posts i agree with everything he says just dunno if its enough to really move him up

#1764: In humoring Visor's requesst to talk about something other than Visor/Ender: lettuce talk super briefly (cause i gotta go and i am already late lol) about dya and boq
imo dya was very villagery last couple of pages, i feel the renata/HK pushes are the "hipster" pushes dya makes as a villager where they think they latch onto something and go for it despite what everyone else thinks

#1767 completing the thought on Boq: boq idk
i am not the best boq reader. he has felt very chill this game and i havent really disagreed with anything he has said
i also think he defended a lot of people i think are villagers so that wins him points too
but clearly none of those things are impossible to fake as a wolf

#1769: kage feels like someone who is gonna die to the villagers regardless of alignment best i got is that he is not w/w with boq (probably)

#1804: Boq asks ladd what info an Ender ouster will offer

#1810: When Ender suggests a Ladd/Visor team: Ladd said he was leaning on Visor wolf tho

#1816: Boq asks ladd to read him and soon realizes ladd did, quoting the post.

#1832: TRs ladd for a post lamenting the non-casual nature of the game.

#1836: Says "Mmmmh" to a ladd post telling Ender that he is his top SR.

#1908: Boq examines ladd's possible motivations as scum, concluding that "I think by occam's razors, ladd is town tbh. It is way more similar to his modus operandi as town than scum tbh."

#1920: Leans list with ladd as lowest town. Ladd unpaired with both Visor and Ender.

CSARGO

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

#1166: Renata tells ladd how to clear multiquotes.
#1167: Csargo affirms Renata's answer.

#1561: Ladd as part of reads post, asking Visor about Orgahs: renata/csargo both seem v villagery

#1579: From large reads post: leaning villa
csargo - similarish to renata but a bit less strong. good thoughts/solving

#1693: Visor @s Csargo for opinion on Taffy and ladd, Csargo responds in #1714.

#1714: I'll look at taffy and ladd again, my impression was they're both town. Feel like the stuff you said about taffy could easily be v stuff to me. Ladd was just feelies, felt good about their posting as they were catching up.

#1827: I think [Visor] more likely to be a woof than Taffy, maybe even ladd as well. [ @Csargo did you mean Visor scummier than ladd here?]

DYACHEI

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

#730s: First interactions. Ladd makes his second appearance of D1 (see commentary) and dyachei immediately asks for ladd's read on themselves. [I don't like this.] Ladd responds concisely: "You seemed villagery enuf."

#1579: From large reads post: leaning villa
dya - i havent been too hot in reading dya lately but i think the way they are making reads at their own pace and the SNARK everytime anyone dares to shade or wolf read them is >>>rand villa

#1646: Visor asks dya for thoughts on ladd: ladd is lean villager so is taffy. I think the way taffy's approaching the game is decent. I find myself nodding along with his posts

#1690s: Asks Visor about his ladd case, doesn't like taffy's pop-in either. In response to Visor's wall-case responding to dya: yeah i think he hasn't spent enough time in the thread for me to get a good read on him

[ALERT: Contradiction!!!]

#1719 ladd defends dya from Visor SR: maybe if it was 2 years ago but their meta changed a ton

#1736: In response to Renata suggesting that Visor and dya commenting on Taffy is partners ginning up a counterwagon to Visor: villagery post (but i disagree on dya, they look villagery in the exchange imo)

#1764: In humoring Visor's requesst to talk about something other than Visor/Ender: lettuce talk super briefly (cause i gotta go and i am already late lol) about dya and boq
imo dya was very villagery last couple of pages, i feel the renata/HK pushes are the "hipster" pushes dya makes as a villager where they think they latch onto something and go for it despite what everyone else thinks

#1769: for amy my only fear is dya villa reading them, maybe i should respect dya's read more. but besides that i think they have been wolfy (tho not excessively so) and they fit like a glove in an ender!wolf world

HOLLOW (HK)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

#944: HK asks Pizza why he thinks ladd is clear from killing spooge N1.

#996: if [Ender] a wolf at least one partner is in the Kage/Ladd/Dya bucket

#1161: HK's shade of Pizza is "villagery read for early game."

#1579: From large reads post: upper PoE (mostly villa leans that i don't feel strong enough about)
HK - push on pizza d1 was villagery, d2 posting seems fine. keeps going after players who he should know will bite back (pizza,dya) which is rand iyam

#1719 ladd defends HK from Visor SR: did you read the sorcerer game you hosted? i don't think he is posting differently from there (but i concede he may be a wolf)

KAGE

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

#1152: In his leans post, Kage has ladd as the only member of the "town leaning" bucket, specifically for his original case against Logic. However, he also finds ladd's entry - voting Logic out of nowhere - to be scummy. [???]

#1555: Ladd says "i can see this [...] kage also kinda fits with literally any team" in response to Boq finding one of Kage's posts scummy.

#1561: Ladd as part of reads post, asking Visor about Orgahs: kage seems >rand wolf by PoE but i got 0 meta on them

#1579: From large reads post: low PoE (null but leaning wolf by PoE)
kage - ngl the formatting made me skip their huge post and the rest of the posts do nothing for me (and push on HK feels weak)

#1639: In response to Visor's case on ladd: Sorry nope bro. Taffy is in the lightside of things in my books from what ive seen so far and so is ladd.

#1713: ladd laughs at an exchange between Visor and Kage

#1769: kage feels like someone who is gonna die to the villagers regardless of alignment best i got is that he is not w/w with boq (probably)

#1771: reskimming monty iso mega quick i could also see him being a wolf
kinda weird him/kage have got so little heat considering they'd be the 2 easiest target (no offense
i liked a couple of minor points from monty but really nothing i care to hang onto when there is so many villagery people

MONTY

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

#1006: Reads: Ladd & dyachei have rolled mafia in Org games I've - many of us have - played in. I don't remember any meta. Null.

#1161: Monty pushback on Ender looks good while Ender looks bad.

#1164: While shading Ender he ups Ender's read that "For Monty I think the piggyback and the response is broadly a towny response."

#1192: ladd asks about Monty D1 reads (I respond in #1875).

#1553: Dismissing Ender's SR of me: monty is a wolf cause they are low impact? cmn really lol [...] again this feels too level 0

#1561: Ladd as part of reads post, asking Visor about Orgahs: monty also seems more villagery than not

#1579: From large reads post: upper PoE (mostly villa leans that i don't feel strong enough about)
monty - dunno maybe he should be the tier below but i bought some of his d1 posts (the yolo team guess, the pushback on ender). if ender is a wolf i think he looks ok

#1771: reskimming monty iso mega quick i could also see him being a wolf
kinda weird him/kage have got so little heat considering they'd be the 2 easiest target (no offense
i liked a couple of minor points from monty but really nothing i care to hang onto when there is so many villagery people

#1875: I tell ladd that my D1 pings (Amp-Logic-Ender-Visor plus one secret sauce) were vibes-based. I answer Boq's question to ladd in #1804 with "Lots. Wagonomics. D2 interactions."

#2072: I appeal to dya and ladd to wagon Ender with me SOD3. Ladd's first post of the day, and his last action, is to comply, without acknowledging my post.

RENATA

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

#1166: Renata tells ladd how to clear multiquotes.

#1553: Ender criticizes Renata for a post with "Limited town reads, wide scumpool." Ladd's response to this: renata is wolfy cause of too many wolfreads...when thats village indicative if anything ime

#1561: Ladd as part of reads post, asking Visor about Orgahs: renata/csargo both seem v villagery

#1579: From large reads post: villagers
renata - never played with them but they post extremely sharp and very direct. not trying to appease at all and notices/pushes things wolves don't imo

#1601: Renata disagrees with ladd about how to think of Pizza's desperado targeting, certitude that it wasn't Ender. In #1604 ladd tells Renata that his reads on Vulgard and Ender are independent of that. Renata in #1609: It sucks because my reads at the time I left last night were the same, but I can?t just ignore the posts that Ender pointed out. I can?t see Pizza being that irresponsible. If he was, fuck that I?m blaming him.

#1736: In response to Renata suggesting that Visor and dya commenting on Taffy is partners ginning up a counterwagon to Visor: villagery post (but i disagree on dya, they look villagery in the exchange imo)

#1745: Defends #1736 to Visor because "it's an hard post to make."

#1769: renata you seems to have more experience with them than me and i have no clue what their wolf range is but if a random player was posting like they are this game i'd easily call them a villager and call it a day

#1775: Renata agrees with #1771 (see Monty/Kage sections).

#1830: Responding to Taffy about #1771: They're both kind of coasting. GTH I go with Monty as wolf over Kage, half because Kage feels so artless in his lack of engagement and half because Visor likes Kage less.

#1977: Renata reads post: Ladd, I don't know. I tend to like their posting when I read it (aside from the initial vote on Logic from day one) and then I get a little distance and don't like it as much. Nothing consolidated, not going to try today.

TAFFY

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

#907 Taffy's reads wall: Ladd: I thought your post with the quotes from Logic was awful until someone called it a joke. I'm pretty sure you haven't done anything that would let me read you yet.

#1193: ladd's reads: my strongest villa reads are cape/vulgard then pizza/taffy (idk if i mentioned them but i really liked a string of posts they had on..some page. it was v genuine imo)

#1299: Taffy willing to sheep ATPG and Vulgard on positive read of ladd. Also willing to sheep "Montmorencey, Kagemusha, Boquise and Ladd. Given a green check I'd also definitely sheep Ender."

#1579: From large reads post: villagers
taffy - genuinely lack clear for their d2 posting and post 1375 is just never from a wolf

#1606/19: Taffy and ladd discuss desperado OMG I AM DONE FINALLY

#1719 ladd defends taffy from Visor SR: this seems completely opposite to how they seem to be posting afaict they have plenty of attitude/sassiness

#1723: Defending taffy from Visor's vote: and even besides that taffy is the villageriest player itg IMO i can villa case them if needed but they'd be my 1 do not ever kill

#1778: Taffy asks if Renata agrees with #1771 (see Renata/Kage/Monty sections)

#1830: Responding to Taffy about #1771: They're both kind of coasting. GTH I go with Monty as wolf over Kage, half because Kage feels so artless in his lack of engagement and half because Visor likes Kage less.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

VULGARD

mEH

ENDER

#730s: Disagrees with Ender's Logic read: "I dont think thats what logic did?"

#977: Reads: Kage/Ladd/Dyachei are the grouping I don't really have a read on properly rn.

#1038: Reads: Csargo is an ehehhh with Dya/ladd/Kage just above.

#1168: Ender scummy for not wanting to fight with Pizza. Just look in the general vicinity of this post for other attacks on Ender by ladd.

.....

#1719: are you clearing ender just cause maybe he got shot?

#1739: Insisting on the Ender case to Visor

#1785: Ladd calling out Visor's posts as wolfy but continuing to vote me is an interesting mood

#1809: Ladd is wolf and I think with Visor based on how neither wants Visir to flip. Or is that prefliopy ego talking? Idk

Commentary (D1): Ladd's first post is #364, hard-suss on "obv wolf" Logic with a vote. Vulgard fills out the page with concerns about this entry. Logic wagon is very dominant now with 4 votes, Visor is pleased, Ladd builds the case and expresses Cape as "one of my few villagers." Vulgard calls this PIS/TMI. Almost all early ladd interactions are with Visor and/or fluff. Amy remarks that she doesn't need to contribute now that ladd is voting with her on Logic. Cape finds ladd's pop-in to be scummy.

Spooge being overpowered in extensive discussion with Vulgard:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by luvs2spooge

You know the drill with Ladd. If Logic is town we kill Ladd. If Logic is mafia the mafia kill Ladd. Either way Ladd is already dead. Long live Ladd.

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:ave:

Ladd has almost no thread-presence D1 due to time issues. He returns near EOD to tell us that he now suspects Ender more than Visor, for Pizza-interaction reasons (and votes there). He is essentially starting the Ender wagon from scratch, and speaks out against Logic and Visor wagons with basically neutral or mixed reads.

Amy #745: uhhh cape and vulgard are probably my strongest townreads. visor and hk maybe a tier below, both mostly off vibes. dya i don't want to kill before i can get a solid read on them, ladd/pizza i kinda just don't want to kill d1 in general

During EOD neither Visor nor Logic find anything to hold against ladd, though spooge votes ladd. Congratulations again to Cape, Vulgard, and Spooge for seeing through him D1 despite minimal thread presence.


Commentary (D2): I deprioritize recording ladd assoc with dead/clear players for D2 at some point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

From the murder choice, I tend to not think it is Ladd.

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kappa

Cape #984: Most interested in voting Kage/ladd/Monty

Vulgard #1011: ladd is probably town for his play on d1 being very idgaf yet wagon switching from Logic when I think he could've reasonably stuck there.

[Just an editorial, but I think high-tier mafia often make such switches between townie wagons on D1 because there are no stakes for them, while potentially creating the illusion of stakes, as well as setting up future antispew]

Pizza #1054: Case for why the NK is not ladd's work.

Ladd gets active again from the #1160s onward. He quickly publishes a number of reactions/reads, starting with reaffirmation of his t-Cape read ("villagery reaction to pizza weird early posting") and ending with more ender push. Lot of focus on people's interactions with Pizza.

#1174 ladd approves of Pizza's scumleans (Vulgard/Spooge/Amp/Ender), starts to find Pizza towny. However, also starts to TL Vulgard for Pizza interactions and other.

#1193 ladd summary hard to categorize:

Quote:

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my strongest villa reads are cape/vulgard

then pizza/taffy (idk if i mentioned them but i really liked a string of posts they had on..some page. it was v genuine imo)

then i villa lean a bunch of people but i could easily be wrong on them -csargo/monty/dya/boq/HK

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Pizza #1489: Pizza's death-leans have ladd at the bottom.

Ender reads #1506: I want to wolfread them for their treatment of me but I know that's OMGUS so I'm reserving this slot until I have someone else read them for me.

#1579 is ladd's final full reads post. I distribute contents among the sections above.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ladd

villagers

ladd - lack clear

taffy - genuinely lack clear for their d2 posting and post 1375 is just never from a wolf

cape - the obvious villager by solving

vulgard - the obvious villager by solving #2+ i am a sucker for some of their more "emotional" posting and i buy it. also my guess for who got shot by pizza

renata - never played with them but they post extremely sharp and very direct. not trying to appease at all and notices/pushes things wolves don't imo

leaning villa

csargo - similarish to renata but a bit less strong. good thoughts/solving

dya - i havent been too hot in reading dya lately but i think the way they are making reads at their own pace and the SNARK everytime anyone dares to shade or wolf read them is >>>rand villa

upper PoE (mostly villa leans that i don't feel strong enough about)


boq- has done even less than me eheh. but when he posts i agree with everything he says just dunno if its enough to really move him up


HK - push on pizza d1 was villagery, d2 posting seems fine. keeps going after players who he should know will bite back (pizza,dya) which is rand iyam

monty - dunno maybe he should be the tier below but i bought some of his d1 posts (the yolo team guess, the pushback on ender). if ender is a wolf i think he looks ok


low PoE (null but leaning wolf by PoE)

visor - i mostly read visor by how much he is pondering different scenarios/being paranoid about the direction the game is taking cause ime thats his biggest villa tell. i don't really see it in his d1, kindaaaa see it in his late d2. couple of posts also give me the creeps (post about cape and 1 about monty around mid d2)

kage - ngl the formatting made me skip their huge post and the rest of the posts do nothing for me (and push on HK feels weak)

wolves
ender - refer to my big post
amy - refer to my big post+ their wall post feels like a wolf making a huge post to get people off them



this is where i am at

i still think we should flip ender. if he is not a wolf gimme the desperado tonight, like for real

if he is a wolf, always kill amy next

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

I want to say Ladd is probably wolf too. Ladd still trying to push me when I was obviously the desperado shot is nagl.

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Xposting with ladd's wall of reads is excellent.

In the #1600s Visor cases Ladd, as well as Taffy, dya, and HK. See character logs at the top - interesting that at the same time, Kage and dya - in response to Visor - had the same low-detail TLs on ladd and taffy.

#1719 is a very important ladd post defending taffy/hollow/dya from Visor (I've quoted it previously).

ladd interacts with Visor quite a lot throughout D2, esp. late day, esp. about Ender.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ladd

let's say you [Visor] are villager

why not something like ender/amy/kage/(hk/monty/maybeee boq)

i feel like you are either a villager going too down in the rabbit holes and making the game harder on himself or a wolf going for the YOLO. i am leaning the 2nd right now but WHO KNOWS

or it's also possible i am the villager on upside down world but if ender/amy are v/v idek what teams are possible, i think my top villagers +dya are all villagers a lot of the times

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ladd D2 scumleans hard to categorize #1756

Cape struggles with his scumlean on ladd throughout the day.

Random observation: ladd interacts most heavily with people he scumreads or is voting, or top thread suspects.

Fucking sanity check all my shit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Totally not Taffy

I probably just missed it Ender but what was that based on?

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Monty/Dya/Ladd formed a trio of "Vote Ender out"

They 90% don't do that as w/w/w