Speaking of Israel...

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I won't speak for the others, but my problem is the huge number of casualties.

What is the end goal here?

If it was to neutralise the rocket launchers, surely that could have been done with counter-battery fire - there would have been collateral damage but it would have been localised. What we have seen, though, are punitive strikes against the homes of Hamas "commanders", intel we mostly have to rely on Israel for, and strikes on populated areas.

The 2006 War in Lebanon and previous strikes into gaza have been primarily punitive - the local populace are ground into the dust to drive home the fact that opposing Israel is worse than opposing the militants.

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There is no endgame. These are punitive strikes with limited tactical objectives as the frontpieces.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Quick question for you all, so I was having a debate with an acquaintance on Facebook about this conflict, and she kept bringing up how the rest of the world isnt paying nearly enough attention to "(insert crisis here)" and saying how it was antisemitism how much everyone was concentrating on Israel. I said she was practicing a classic case of Whataboutism, to which she denies the claim, saying that can only be leveled at the USSR (ignoring how she was appealing to hypocrisy). Is that a valid claim or not? I think that its perfectly valid to say its Whataboutism.

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MH17 is dominating the headlines far more than Gaza, which is what some people have accused the West of being 'biased' of. "Oh look, another plane, lets ignore what Israel is doing again". I am sure I even read a post somewhere which a person pointed at the casualty list complaining about Gaza not receiving the same coverage.

You get these incidents on both sides of the fence. Some people 'want more' others 'want less'. Depending on the proximity of the incident has a massive bearing. I have a feeling Chinese news has Gaza on a footnote somewhere in comparison.

I bet the Glasgow Commonwealth games wished people gave them more attention.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Quick question for you all, so I was having a debate with an acquaintance on Facebook about this conflict, and she kept bringing up how the rest of the world isnt paying nearly enough attention to "(insert crisis here)" and saying how it was antisemitism how much everyone was concentrating on Israel. I said she was practicing a classic case of Whataboutism, to which she denies the claim, saying that can only be leveled at the USSR (ignoring how she was appealing to hypocrisy). Is that a valid claim or not? I think that its perfectly valid to say its Whataboutism.

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You're probably right, but you should take her up on how she does apparently not deny Israel's wrongdoing and only complains about the amount of attention it gets. There is probably some antisemitism involved but using that to distract from the actual issues is not a solution.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

I think we need a new thread about not voting. It's an interesting topic, where I am right and you are all wrong.

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You can start a new topic if you look forward to being proven wrong, but with your attitude it seems either pointless or it will hurt even more when you finally have to admit your mistakes.

The UN apparently sees some basis for possible war crimes. The article focuses on Israel, but does mention Hamas.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2014/0...058635836.html

It is unclear whether the focus on Israel is a product of the UN or the reporting.

BBC provides the same information; apparently the focus on Israel is part of the UN report:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28437626

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Originally Posted by Idaho

I think we need a new thread about not voting. It's an interesting topic, where I am right and you are all wrong.

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That's just stupid.

You live in a democracy but do not even bother to vote - then you say you love democracy.

Back to Israel - supposedly lots of Israelis disagree with the settlements - but they keep voting in settlement-orientated governments.

why's that?

Well, mostly I think it's because most Israelis aren't actually that bothered - in theory they don't like the settlements but in practice they're more interested in keeping the militants down, and they don't know any way to do that other than beating the Palestinians like mangy dogs.

Basically - the whole area is brutalised and nothing short of a 100-year UN mandate has any hope of ever fixing it.

I dont think a UN mandate would fix anything nowadays. I mean where in the world has a UN mandate actually had a positive change?

http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/op.../success.shtml

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Since 1948, the UN has helped end conflicts and foster reconciliation by conducting successful peacekeeping operations in dozens of countries, including Cambodia, El Salvador, Guatemala, Mozambique, Namibia and Tajikistan.

UN peacekeeping has also made a real difference in other places with recently completed or on-going operations such as Sierra Leone, Burundi, Côte d’Ivoire, Timor-Leste, Liberia, Haiti and Kosovo. By providing basic security guarantees and responding to crises, these UN operations have supported political transitions and helped buttress fragile new state institutions. They have helped countries to close the chapter of conflict and open a path to normal development, even if major peacebuilding challenges remain.

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Originally Posted by Husar

You can start a new topic if you look forward to being proven wrong, but with your attitude it seems either pointless or it will hurt even more when you finally have to admit your mistakes.

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Joke dude! There would be no point in debating otherwise.

I must have been wasted when I wrote that last bit. I don't remember it.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

I dont think a UN mandate would fix anything nowadays. I mean where in the world has a UN mandate actually had a positive change?

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When it was what the US was going to do anyway.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

When it was what the US was going to do anyway.

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Which in the case of Israel/Palestine is very apt as the US will veto anything not in Israel's short term interests.

US is an enabler both in voting and money for what Israel does.

Fair enough.

Anyways, there was a pro-Israel rally held today in my town, and when I refused to go (since its a waste of my time) I got reamed by a bunch of people for basically being morally reprehensible for not going to a rally. Yes, I am a terrible evil human being for not wanting to go to a rally.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Fair enough.

Anyways, there was a pro-Israel rally held today in my town, and when I refused to go (since its a waste of my time) I got reamed by a bunch of people for basically being morally reprehensible for not going to a rally. Yes, I am a terrible evil human being for not wanting to go to a rally.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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Well if the reason you gave was that is was "a waste of my time", then I can see why they might have got a bit upset! You should have just said you were morally opposed to it.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Fair enough.

Anyways, there was a pro-Israel rally held today in my town, and when I refused to go (since its a waste of my time) I got reamed by a bunch of people for basically being morally reprehensible for not going to a rally. Yes, I am a terrible evil human being for not wanting to go to a rally.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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I had always read that most guys went to rallies more because the gals would be there than for the putative cause of the rally.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I had always read that most guys went to rallies more because the gals would be there than for the putative cause of the rally.

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Every good leftie demonstration always ends up at the bar.

Drop a few Simone de Beauvoir quotes, and you're set.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Every good leftie demonstration always ends up at the bar.

Drop a few Simone de Beauvoir quotes, and you're set.

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On this side of the pond I think Gandhi or Guevara quotes would probably get you further -- less philosophy interest -- but you CLEARLY have the general assessment of things entirely on target.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

On this side of the pond I think Gandhi or Guevara quotes would probably get you further -- less philosophy interest -- but you CLEARLY have the general assessment of things entirely on target.

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"Man is defined as a human being and woman as a female – whenever she behaves as a human being she is said to imitate the male." - Simone de Beauvoir

The point is not to quote leftist icons; everyone will be doing that. No, the point is that you - as a man - quote a feminist icon. Nothing will get those radical feminist knickers off faster. It doesn't really matter if the feminist in question is familiar with de Beauvoir. Her work is so influential that basically every feminist piece can trace its arguments back to her(in particular the second sex, of course), and so such quotes will resonate with her ideology no matter what. The main obstacle will be to seperate the full-blown lesbians from the bi-curios, but in that case the following quote might help:

"In itself, homosexuality is as limiting as heterosexuality: the ideal should be to be capable of loving a woman or a man; either, a human being, without feeling fear, restraint, or obligation." - de Beauvoir, again


What, you think I joined political youth groups because of politics....?

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Well if the reason you gave was that is was "a waste of my time", then I can see why they might have got a bit upset! You should have just said you were morally opposed to it.

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Saying I was morally opposed is even worse! Saying you dont fall in line with the strictly pro-Israel crowd is basically political suicide. Not that I have political aspirations, but better not to close that door so early.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I had always read that most guys went to rallies more because the gals would be there than for the putative cause of the rally.

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Yeah, in these kind of rallys the average age for female participation is 50 and they usually have kids.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

"Man is defined as a human being and woman as a female – whenever she behaves as a human being she is said to imitate the male." - Simone de Beauvoir

The point is not to quote leftist icons; everyone will be doing that. No, the point is that you - as a man - quote a feminist icon. Nothing will get those radical feminist knickers off faster. It doesn't really matter if the feminist in question is familiar with de Beauvoir. Her work is so influential that basically every feminist piece can trace its arguments back to her(in particular the second sex, of course), and so such quotes will resonate with her ideology no matter what. The main obstacle will be to seperate the full-blown lesbians from the bi-curios, but in that case the following quote might help:

"In itself, homosexuality is as limiting as heterosexuality: the ideal should be to be capable of loving a woman or a man; either, a human being, without feeling fear, restraint, or obligation." - de Beauvoir, again


What, you think I joined political youth groups because of politics....?

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OH I understood your point about de Beauvoir and "le feminism," but most yank gals wouldn't....hence the more typical leftist/pacifist authors. Your approach reveals a level of sophistication that wouldn't be so well matched on this side of things. Despite being smart, so many of my countrypersons choose ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

OH I understood your point about de Beauvoir and "le feminism," but most yank gals wouldn't....hence the more typical leftist/pacifist authors. Your approach reveals a level of sophistication that wouldn't be so well matched on this side of things. Despite being smart, so many of my countrypersons choose ignorance.

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I absolutely refuse to believe that your college women are ignorant of basic feminism.

I should go over and verify....

Of course its the civilians who suffer.
If one is "anti-Hamas" they get gunned down as traitors to the cause; if "anti-Israel" they are fair game for "collateral damage"; decide you have no dog in this game? see-"collateral damage"
Actually I am surprised there are not more "suicide bombers".

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I absolutely refuse to believe that your college women are ignorant of basic feminism.

I should go over and verify....

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Do come, do.

Perhaps this conflict is more about "jobs, jobs, jobs!"
Instead of "wasteful spending" on decaying infrastructure at home, America subsidizes continuous creation and destruction of capital in the Middle-East.
Its like a perpetual motion machine of investment.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...sistance-unrwa

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Do come, do.

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I still have a masters to do. If you can guarantee a program cleansed of post-modern BS, I'll book my tickets tomorrow ~;)

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I still have a masters to do. If you can guarantee a program cleansed of post-modern BS, I'll book my tickets tomorrow ~;)

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You make me sad....I didn't think the pun that hard to decipher.


As to a program of study, it is impossible to skip PM entirely....though when I teach it I am careful to remind students that the power of its critique is only matched by the limitations on any real improvements generated to meet said criticisms. Are all of your profs still reveling in deconstruction without actually getting to the part about rebuilding?

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

You make me sad....I didn't think the pun that hard to decipher.

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Gah! I am ashamed of myself. My only excuse is the excessive heat we have here...

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

As to a program of study, it is impossible to skip PM entirely....though when I teach it I am careful to remind students that the power of its critique is only matched by the limitations on any real improvements generated to meet said criticisms. Are all of your profs still reveling in deconstruction without actually getting to the part about rebuilding?

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Sounds good, sign me up! Quit those lame business classes and get over to something of real value, ie. education. Something like 'verbal communication in the classroom' or 'history didactic' should do brilliantly.

I don't have any profs any more; I got fed up, quit my program entirely and got back to working full time.

Death toll approaching a thousand civilians. Israel bombs a UN "safe zone" compound and kills 15 despite continuous pleas from the UN over the radio. Thousands injured and homeless. Families huddled frightened with nowhere safe to turn... While in Israel:

http://www.haaretz.com/life/nature-environment/1.607076

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Death toll approaching a thousand civilians. Israel bombs a UN "safe zone" compound and kills 15 despite continuous pleas from the UN over the radio. Thousands injured and homeless. Families huddled frightened with nowhere safe to turn... While in Israel:

http://www.haaretz.com/life/nature-environment/1.607076

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It hasn't been confirmed as Israeli shelling yet - apparently the UN also reported Hamas rockets hitting the area shortly before so it honestly could be either of them at this point... as always the civilians are caught between both factions

Israel usually deny and obfuscate these events until the news agenda moves on, then the truth is accepted by someone junior during a busy news week a month later.

This article has been circulating my social media lately, comes across as very... oh whats the word, pissy?

He doesn't mention the settlements, they never do, it's as though they just sit in their country and noone is building settlements outside their country on other peoples' land. And they left Gaza, that's like saying they left the chicken's cage, but they don't get why the chicken has gone crazy.