I suppose 1a is the way to go, having panzer divisions running back and forth does us no good.~:)
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I suppose 1a is the way to go, having panzer divisions running back and forth does us no good.~:)
I prefer 1b since I think the Russians are spent and a general attack should be able to mop them up. But 1a sounds good too.
Hmm... difficult to say, the gap has to be closed and it has to be closed immediately, or otherwise, the entire encirclement is shot. The problem is that if the Russian attacks are ignored, they might pull an Ouran on our forces.
Close the gap with DR and Totenkopf, tell the defenders to dig in when the Russians let up. I suspect that the worst hasn't even begun yet...
1a
Bring down Manstien's Mjollnir! :medievalcheers:
It has already been decided, but I will reinterate- 1a. The southern lines may be having difficulty, but if they can hold on long enough, the Russians will be cut off, and Model can send his own soldiers south to hit the flanks. After all, he probably has more men, since he started so late.
Mjollnir? Oh, Thor's hammer. I see...
And I guess 1b. The attacking troops will hold the russians in place, getting more in the bag. But don't press the attacks, except at the neck of course.
This story is drug. I need my kick every day!
:nurse::wacky:
While it doesnt mean much,but 1b,1a is good also but lets just crush the buggers.:knight:
By the way, has anybody a feeling about what date we have?
I guess it's now down to 1a or 1b. I think we're very lucky that the southern line is holding, and I certainly have my doubts that it will continue to do so, but it's too late to pull back some of our armoured forces now. You'll recall I wanted to leave GD, 11th, and 3rd in place to begin with, to guard against exactly the situation we're faced with now. I think Kraxis is being rather kind to us by letting the southern line hold even as long as it has. Regardless, we must capture the Kursk railroad before the Russians use it to bring in more reinforcements.
There seems to be little difference between 1a and 1b at this point. The only question is how long to wait before ordering the general advance along the bulge. If we do it now, we may catch some retreating Russian formations unprepared, but we risk facing positions that are still strong. If we wait and do it later, the defensive positions may be weaker, but we'll have a harder time catching up to the retreating Russians. It would help to know the strength of our forces stationed along the bulge.
I suppose I would advise launching the advance now. If the Russians in the pocket are allowed to remain unmolested too long, they may try an organized breakout against our severely weakened positions. It would also be in our best interest to reduce the pocket as quickly as possible, in case the Russians are bringing reinforcements from the east (as they almost certainly are). So I would suggest 1b over 1a.
Nevertheless, 1a got the most votes early on, so it is the choice, and once again my opinion goes unheeded. However, I'm not as worried this time: 1a may not be the best choice, but it doesn't seem to lead to utter catastrophe, as long as the Russians don't break through our southern line. However, if that happens, then 1b would be equally disastrous, and nothing would save us.
Kommodus, we just need to close a 5km gap with Model, then Model can keep the gap closed while we take DR and TK and attack the Russians in the flank.
Let's face the truth. We won that battle! Don't hesitate to accept this because your are affraid of some 'virtual' Soviet threat.
All we have to do now is to make it a big victory. So let our tanks close the gap, combine with Model. Then let them drive east to the Don. This will be our new line of defense (Hitler will love that!).
Let our infantry take care of the captured Soviets. You should not underestimate them! Though they are not very mobile they have a good combat skill. Unlike infantry in 1939 they have strong defensive abilities in fighting tanks and planes. Let our tanks move and let the infantry do the rest of the job: defense and cracking of strong enemy positions.
No, we haven't won the battle. Again, our forces are tired, depleted and have taken major losses, while the Russians can just bring in more and more men to Kursk, or to any other point on the front. Fighting against so many Russians (and later, the allies) is a losing proposition. All we can do is hold them off for as long as possible.
Demon, Idid not say we won the war, just this battle. Yes, our forces are tired, depleted and have taken major losses. What did you expect? This is a big battle. Even after the French campaign the German forces were tired. But the Russians are in an even worse condition. All their major forces are crushed. All their hopes are shattered. So no reason to hesitate now. If we make this a big victory (capture the Russians in the pocket, beat the remaining Steppe and advance to the Don) Stalin may accept a peace offer. Then we would be able to stop the western allies for years - or at least until they can nuke ~:mecry:
Our infantry divisions are still intact. We did not use them a lot. With their 8.8 flak and the tank destroyers they will give any remaining Steppe unit a warm welcome!
Wow - just come across this thread and have been reading it for 2 days expecting to get to the end of the story - but it is still going.
My view? - well break out the russian phrase books and prepare for a few years in the Siberian summer camps. What if the Germans close the gap - will the 2 men and a dog be able to contain the 800,000 Ruskis in the pocket, while keeping the hordes outside of the pocket out the way as well - I don't think so - the fact that the "defeated Steppe groupe" has been battering the whole line the day after their defeat rather paints the picture. This has Stalingrad written all over it - German army doing well, overreaches itself, Hitler doesn't let them retreat, good night Vienna. This is not the Russian army of 1941, this is the army that has turned the germans back outside Moscow and smashed the 6th Army - and as for breaking through to the Don and Stalin making peace - in your dreams. Uncle Joe didn't think about that when the Germans were at the outskirts of Moscow, so why do it when you know eventually you will win. He wouldn't make peace if the germans made it to Vladivostock.
What is interesting about this alternative Kursk is that potenially it will be more disasterious for the Germans than the original. They are sucked right into the salient and potenially can be enveloped. In the actual they didn't get pulled in so far - the russian defences were much stronger - so they took losses, but when the battle ground to a halt, they were able to extract themselves. So roll on the next episode - I sense impending doom for Manstein and his pals.~:cheers:
Hi King,
welcome to our team! This is a very interesting point of view. If you were right - and you might- Manstein should never tried to attack. I think this is the position of Guderian too.
On the other hand - it looks like the Germans under Kraxis command managed to beat the three strongest fronts the Russians have. Even though the Russians may recover faster than the Germans I guess they need at least half a year to start a major operation. If Germans reach the Don they are quiet close to Moscow and they interrupt the connection between Moscow and Stalingrad. Furthermore they have a very good defensive position so they should be able to stand the winter without trouble.
Will the Germans be able to keep 800,000 Russians in the pocket? Sure. They are beaten and cut off. No problem for German infantry. This is exactly the situation Manstein planed to reach. So why worry now? The hordes outside the pocket? Once the armored divisions of Hgr. Süd and HGr. Mitte are combined they should be able to push the Steppe behind the Don.
If my memory serves I read that there were some kind of peace talks between Ribbentrop and Molotow in spring 1943. They ended because the Soviets wanted the borders of 1941 and the Germans did not want to give up all of the conquered territory. Now after Stalin lost 1,000,000 men and several thousand tanks and Hitler facing the Americans in Italy and after Gomorrha there might have been a chance for peace.~:cheers:
Hi Franconicus
I guess I never see the Russians as the kind of guys to make peace. Their approach to war has always been to exhaust the invader with all that open space. After all Napoleon actually made it to Moscow, but it still didn't do him any good. At best any pact in 1943 would have been a pause, not the end. Stalin's view was that Russia had been invaded from the West 3 times during the 20th century and he wanted a nice ring of barrier states to protect his borders - which is what he got in 1945. Besides the casualties would not have frightened him - after all he killed a fair few of his own people to say the least - all he wanted was security and revenge on the Germans for what they had done to his country.What's more the war was a useful tool to unite the country and for him to impose his stringent central control.
As to the 800,000 troops encircled, my view is that by this period of the war, the russian army was not obsessed with communication links, large numbers of these troops, even if not that well supplied, would have just carried on as partisans, not a massive military threat admittedly, but enough to keep a fair few divisions bogged down keeping the lid on. When the Germans loose their fluidity on the easten front they eventually loose. This happened at the gates of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk and big time in the destruction of Army group Centre in 1944. Russia always seems like a sponge, you just keep hitting, you eventually tire then them come back with hordes you didn't know they had. Despite the massive losses of 1941 and 42, the Russians managed to produce the men and material to at least hold their own in 1943 and to sweep the Germans back to Berlin in 1944/5. So I still hold to my premise that Manstein's woes began in the summer of 1941. Mind you, I still can't wait for the next episode!!~:cheers:
Perhaps you are right and we are overconfident of our success, but if we don't act we will definetly lose. So I say we keep going. No victory without risk!
Unles you have an alternative strategy, off course. If you can convince me, I will change my vote (if it's allowed ~:cool: ).
Hi Ludens
My strategy as Manstein? - well given a free hand, move all my troops back to about Vienna, but I don't think Hitler will smile on this! So, within more narrow parameters, shorten and reenforce my lines, leave the gap at about 5 kms - the german airforce and artillery will destroy the material, tanks, transport, etc a la Falaise Gap - destroying men will not slow the Russians, but material will. The Russians will also have to attack the strengthened line as well, so more chances to favourably wear down their resources. If something goes wrong - where are the nearest Romanians on the German flanks!! - then their necks are not firmly in the noose and it can be withdrawn.
The premise is that the russians having a disaster will not be a big deal. They will draw breathe, wait for winter and come again next year. If the germans have a disaster, the floodgates open and they arrive in Paris about late 1944 - remember they go from about here to berlin in about 10 months in 1944/5 Now that is an interesting scenario - the Warsaw Pact stretches to the Spanish border and the Channel and all Western Europe starts learning russian - so, still want to press on? History is in your hands!!~:cheers:
:wideeyed: Heavy! In that case, hell yes- press on! ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
King Kurt comes with some very valid points here boys.
But a few facts:
Stalin actually contemplated a seperate peace in early summer of 44... Surprised? I most certainly was. But this was before Bagration and its massive success. Russia was at the time almost bled dry, and another bloody advance could have ended up being just as destructive for Stalin as for the Germans. Besides, Stalin had a evil eye on the western allies for good reason, now it was time for them to bleed. Anyway he discarded the idea as soon as Bagration got underway. So Stalin was not beyond making peace.
The Russian forces contained inside the bulge contained prior to the attack about 70% of the Soviet armoured formations (lesser percentage of tanks though, around 50%) and almost all the Guards formations. This was a carefully built up force, meant to batter the Germans into submission (as history proved it could). Should this elite and wellarmed force get almost humiliated in battle then it qwould be a huge blow to Russian morale
These troops aer not the normal run of the mill Russian conscripts, but the best and most experienced the Soviet Union has to offer. They are not replaceable in the normal sense.
Russian formations were never good at fighting when they got surrounded. Sure individual sections and soldiers fought on, but that is nuisance. The organizations were quickly destroyed, compared to basically every other army out there. The Germans and Japanese being particularly persistant when surrounded.
Even the massive forces (which was actually fairly good) at Kiev broke down within a very short time.
The reason for this? Russian supplydumps were in general quite small, geared for movement (this was actually quite advanced). Each soldier took no more than about 15 rounds with him into battle until around 44, of course submachinegunners carried more and troops in urban environments also carried more. And the artillery was highly expedient of ammo because of the tendency to collect it into massive artillery units (artillery armies were not uncommon).
The forces outside the bulge are for the most part now, infantry as their armoured components have been defeated. They do of course have their own integral armoured units, but the armoured divisions are in general terms spent.
Whether they can push through or not... Well that is to be seen.~;)
Yea, but if these guys are "elite", then Russia would spent ALOT of resources trying to break them out. King Kurt has a point, but I think we should close the gap, then attack the bulge first, before opening up the gap again. That way, the Russian troops will be even more eager to start running.
Stalin and his generals never cared about losses, elite or not. They would have tried to rescue them. But they never managed to rescue captured troops. At our Kiew scenario the hardest thing was to break through and then fight the counter offensive. The rest should be rather easy.
I do not know why we discuss the strategic goals now that we hopefully managed to get a tactical victory. If the goal of encircling and demolish the Russian armies at Kursk was wrong. Manstein should never started this operation. Now it is too late to worry about it.
The strategic questions are:
Was the war lost in spring 1943?
If yes - could the Germans realize it?
If yes - what should they have done?
In spring 1943 German military was still at his top. They ruled most parts of Europe. Manstein demonstrated that he was able to stop the Soviets even when he was outnumbered.
The Western Aliies did not do much to worry Germany. All right, the submarine war was lost, Africa was lost and propably Italy would fall. So what. That does not touch the core of German military power. The bombing of the RAF caused lot of damage but did not effect the industry (in fact it increased the willingness of the German population to fight) and the USSAF was far too weak to be a real threat. So why give up.
Manstein wrote after the war the he still believed that the war could be won in 1943.
Beating the Soviets would have had several effects:
The Soviets would have lost many brigades. It would have taken until spring 1944 to replace them. Even in Russia there is a point where the resistance breaks down. The Ukraine lost 25% of the population in that war. Think of WW1. The loss of 600,000 to 900,000 men would have a big psychological impact on the Russian and German soldiers. Of course the Soviet government was much more successful in motivate and equip the Russians but in the end Stalin had to think about revolts, maybe even from members of his own party. So I guess peace was possible, if not likely.
A big peace in the East would have released some experienced divisions and some industrial capacities to fight the Americans. So their bombing war would not have been successful for long and the landing in Normandy would have been postponed to at least 1945. So Germany would have controlled Europe and its resources for another year.
And regarding the alternatives: kill Hitler, beat the Russians and make peace with the US. That is what Manstein should have done!
Well - stirred the pot up here, haven't I!
I hadn't heard about Stalin looking for peace in 1944. However, I still feel that this would have been a pause for breath, as opposed to lasting peace. Historically, Russia had been threatened from the West for centuries, so I am sure that Stalin with his deep paranoia would look to secure his borders with a ring of buffer states. Also you can't overlook the pathalogical hatred the Russians had for the Germans after the excesses that had occured so far in the war. I visited the then Soviet Union in 1968 as a 16 year old schoolboy. One of the strong memories I have of that trip was the pride of the Russians of their achievement in the war and how it was ingrained into their whole way of life.
In the West, we have always assumed that the Russians judge things on the same values that we do, but history, since Alexander Nevesky has shown that they have a dogged determination to wait until they achieve what they want, at what cost.
As for the tactical situation, I have always thought that the secret of attacking is to know when to stop. Better to get into a position where the enemy must attack you and let them crash against our defenses than to carry on attacking until you run out of men and resources.
But, most impotantantly where is the next episode!~:cheers:
Kurt, we create the gap AFTER we close it and begin to move in to smash the Russians. By applying pressure on the bulge, they will panic more and be more likely to run than fight.
When they run, start massacring them.
You mean like the Germans did at Dunkerque? ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
Like the French did with the Maginot? :hide:Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
You are absolutely right! ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
They stopped for several reasons - a bloody nose at Arras from the British Matildas, so a bit of caution - Hitler's interference - also the british were not the main target of the attack, the french were, so defeating them was the main object. However, this time there was no miracle on the Marne. As well, the british lost all their equipment at Dunkerque, so the main objective was achieved - the British army didn't come back for 4 years to mainland Europe. A relation was in the british retreat to Dunkerque - he found out Arras had fallen by switching on a radio in a deserted house, tuning into the BBC and hearing that Arras had fallen. trouble was, he and his mates were in Arras at the time!! They slipped out at night and made it back to the UK vis Dunkerque. He was actually stationed on the White cliffs of Dover when he got back and he often told of the first few weeks that their platoon only had 1 rifle between them all, so they had to shareThis is a perfect example of what not to do. The Germans had absolutely no reason to attack - they could go round it through Belgium. In our Kursk scenario, the Russians have to attack to get their troops out - that's why the sit and let them attack mode would work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
And we are still waiting!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
The Road of Death
You feel the strains of command over the last few weeks. You are severely fatigued, depredations of sleep is finally taking its toll. You shake your head to clear out your thoughts... But the shroud settled almost at once and you give in to the impulse to yawn. At ocne you flex all your muscles to wake up your body and this time the clearness stays on.
Looking at the map you take notice of the heavy attacks on your infantryline. The Russians can't flank you, luckily, but they outnumber you in a great extent and the attacks are persistant. 167th Infantry is being pushed back as enemy formations flow off the wavebraker that is LAH onto it.
You look around the HQ, Hoth is still lethargic, in fact he has gone to sleep in a chair. Apparently his strength has been sapped, he is no good to you for the moment, everybody else seems busy on phones, running around with papers and writing orders. You understand that you can't pull anything out of the attack now, no matter how much you want to. Also doing that would likely just clog up the few roads with troops trying to pass each other on single lanes. No the infantry would have to hold alone... Perhaps not entirely alone... Yes... But Hoth is out for the count, you can't send him, besides his speciality is the attack and his overaggressiveness could cause problems for the defenders. When you think about it, only one candidate is possible, you! But who is going to control the advance?
Suddenly you get a call from the advancing formations. Hausser speaks: "We are encountering heavy resistance. It seems the Russians are putting every tanks and gun in our way to keep us from closing the gap."
That's the guy... You can't believe you had forgoten about the toughneck Hausser, the fatigue must be draining your system.
"Hausser, I'm giving you command of Das Reich, Totenkopf, GD, 11th and 3rd Panzer. I need to go back to the other half of our forces to contain the Russian attacks. Flush out the Russian guns with your infantry, keep the artillery onto the gap. I will send all the planes that can be spared to help you out. Don't push it too hard though, we can't afford to lose too many troops and tanks."
"Yes Herr Field Marshall. And good luck, from what I have heard ou will need it."
"Heh, yes, but aren't I known for my luck?"
"No..."
"Haha... Yeah, I guess so, but that just proves I don't need luck."
You hang up and rush out of the HQ to the staff car. You urge the driver to head southeast to the infantryline.
During the drive through the night, you can hear the rumble of the artillery from the spearheads, and the horizon lights up in flashes. Hausser is carrying out the orders. In front of you you see other flashes, more uncoordinated and more spread out. Clearly a battles between the two sides' artillery, but sadly many of your formations lack artillery. LAH and 167th Infantry have lost theirs, 332nd lost some of theirs early in the battle and 255th never got replacements for the losses they suffered in the winter. At least 3rd Panzer Corps have theirs intact.
Above you, nightfighters and nightbombers play their deadly game of hide-and-seek. Once in a while a streak of flames tumble to the ground. Searchlight on both sides of the front sweep the sky. Tonight the nightbattles are particularly intense, a clear extension of the heavy airbattles of the day. Obviously the Russians are giving it their all, nothing is held back.
When you arrive at your new HQ at Kampgruppe Heidekamp, you instantly begin to demand reports of the divisional commanders. The reports are both depressing and uplifting. Losses are significant, but not in a single place have the line been pierced. The lack of operational armoured forces have meant the Russians haven't been able to put a sufficiently heavy attack onto any specific point. The only concentration of tanks were sent right at LAH and her T-34s, the attack got shredded by the tanks and the AT-guns in support. Clearly the Russians attempted to do the usual of trying to break the central formation, but this time they didn't know that it was in an advanced position and was possibly the strongest in terms of armour.
So all in all your forces have held, and inflicted almost impossible losses on their enemies. One company of 167th Infantry even had to leave their position when their sightlines got blocked by knocked out tanks, trucks and dead, the Russians were deftly using the earlier losses to cover their advance.
The night was long and hard on both you and your troops. Unlike normally, there were no pause betwen attacks, just line after line of attacks. It doesn't look like the nimble and probing work of Rokossovsky. This is an attack of a strong will. You have seen this before... It can't be anything but an urgent demand from Stalin. He must be fuming and boiling in his dacha.
Around the time of dawn you get a break. The attacks peeter out and the front becomes silent. You use the time to redress the lines, shift infantry around to keep the front at full strength. Meanwhile the airbattles come to life with full strength once more, but the low cloudcover and light rains keep the affair from enveloping the groundforces in any significant degree. But at least with the forces under Hausser there is development. The gun-Stukas have a field day shooting up retreating tanks, trucks and trains with their low level attacks. Russian fighters try to drive them out bu the low clouds make great hidingplaces and the Stukas pop in and out. Meanwhile the artillery plays havoc on the retreating Russians, the few roads become a mass of tangled equipment and burning vehicles. But Hausser couldn't budge the blocking forces during the night. Model is having similar troubles, and also has to deal with attacks on his flanks.
Just after breakfast the inferno starts up again. Russian artillery concentrates on the weakened 167th Infantry, and is quickly followed up by a dense mass of tank and infantry, the carnage is extreme as the artillery from the surrounding divisions combine onto this formation. But out of the clouds of dust the Russians appear unscathed and their attack is vicious, the defenders put up a valiant fight but are sent reeling away and in less than an hour 167th is split in half. Despite this it tries to close up again, and now the apparent strength of the Russian attack is shown for what it is, a halfhearted effort. The 167th manage to close the gap, but the remaining tanks andinfantry pour into the rear, fighting with rear area troops, artillery and MPs. The uneven fight is devastating for the already depleted 167th. You saw the trouble even before it unfolded and ordered Kampfgruppe Heidekamp to intercept the enemy. Now it arrives in the nick of time to save the tail of 167th. The heavy tanks rip into the Russian formation, the enemy taken completely by surprise as they had been gleefully cutting down rear area troops. The potential disaster is averted.
For hours the Russians keep up the attacks with masses of infantry, but without their tanks they stand little chance of actually winning. Now it just becomes a costly slaughter, costly for you, a slughter for the Russians. You shake your head even as you send Kampfgruppe Heidekamp onto the offensive, driving through the dense masses of attacking infantry. They leave behind a path of destruction, and at one point the Russians even let their artillery attack the Kampfgruppe in the middle of their own infantry. Two Panthers and a Tiger gets immobilized, a serious loss to the severely depleted Kampfgruppe. But this marks the end of the determined attacks, as you see the opportunity for the tanks and launch all armoured forces left to you. The LAH disgourges all its T-34s and remaining Panzer IVs along with the StuGs of 255th Infantry and the surviving panzer of 3rd Panzer Corps. In total about 250 vehicles rumbles through the Russian infantry, and suddenly they are among the artillery. In their haste to attack the Russians hadn't managed to bring their AT-guns with them in any serious capacity. Your tanks ravage the Russian formations for hours and by dusk they can't find any enemy who hasn't fled.
The attack on the infantryline has been not only halted but absolutely crushed.
Meanwhile Hausser finally broke the gunline with his infantry and manage to sever both the railline (though it was already out of working order with all the wreckage blocking it) and the main road. With this final breakthrough the nothern defenders also broke to the east opening the floodgates to Model.
Around midnight two recon units of each attacking formation meet northeast of Kursk. The bag is closed. Behind them, the former gap is a landscape of destruction.
For days more Russian troops manage to infiltrate through your lines to the freedom of the east, but the panzer divisions quickly spread out and any organized escape it halted. With the back broken of the Steppe Front there is little that can support the trapped troops. Despite this several areas suffer Russian attacks in an attempt to take the attention elsewhere. Especially the Orel sector sees strong attacks from armoured components and for a while it seems that they might in fact break through, but just then the leading elements stumble into the Ferdinands of 9th Army on a vast open plain and the attack is brought to an instant halt, and eventually also cut off as Model rushes reserves to close the breach.
Meanwhile you spread out Army Detachment Kempf's remaining corps' to cover the outer wall of the front as you launch the full attack on the trapped troops.
Unlike previous encircled troops these troops fight with vigour for an entire week. But the result is never in doubt and in the end, on the date of 16th of May the last organized forces surrender inside Kursk. It is a staggering victory, the largest of any army to date.
Inside the pocket a total of 811.000 Soviet soldiers are taken prisoner, of these some 40.000 are Guards, outside the pocket in the Orel sector another 31.000 prisoners were taken and finally in total you captured 92.000 prisoners during your advance and the local encirclements, of these 22.000 were Guards. A grand total of 944.000 prisoners. These are at once tranferred to Speer and his efforts to increase the industrial output, as had been the plan all along.
Besides the amazing number of prisoners, you capture 450 tanks (more than 300 of which are T-34s) inside the pocket and another 240 outside, 5000 heavy guns and hundreds of planes, left behind with no fuel. And another prize is Konstantin Rokosovsky himself, apparently sent inside the pocket to break it out, and possibly to punish him for his failure to halt your advance.
Your own troops suffered heavily too, a grand total of more than 70.000 casualties among yours and Model's forces. Both forces were exhausted in the end.
Expended, the Soviet forces are still and unable to do much. In an effort to close the huge gap behind Kursk other sectors are stripped of troops. And for the entirety of the summer German forces along the eastern front make limited gains and take various important local positions. The most important of these is the shore of Lake Ladoga, linking up with the Finnish forces. Leningrad is thus totally encircled with no more supplies coming in. But besides this nothing else happens of importance as several of your strognest units are pulled back to rest and rearm for thei deployment to Italy and Sicily. Hitler, the fool, had allowed the Afrikakorps to get captured in Tunisia.
During autumn Leningrad finally falls after extreme starvation had set in, depleting the garrison. An attack to open a route to the city had failed in August, and only resulted in the German forces increasing the gap betwen the city and the Soviet lines.
The industrial output soars under the command of Speer, and with the success of the Panther at Kursk it is made the principal tank. For months production is low as factories change to produce the tank, but then in late autumn rates skyrocket. Meanwhile the Russian labour made available increases the German manpowerpool with 500.000 at once.
In Sicily the Allied landings suffer setbacks and heavy losses, but eventually after three months of heavy fighting capture the island. The landings in Italy itself bog down each time, but the Germans fall back on their Gustav line where no attacks can make an impression on them. The Allies tries to outflank the line with a landing near Anzio, but the strong German reserves first contain it, then drive it back into the sea. Capturing 40.000 Allied troops.
In the east the war takes a sudden change as seemingly the Soviet hirachy is in turmoil. After the failed offensive to relieve Leningrad, demanded by Stalin, and the city's fall, which got blamed onto General Frolov who was subsequently executed, Konev and Zhukov saw the dark clouds gather and set their differences aside and marched on Moscow with light forces. Stalin had after Kursk become highly volatile and quite unreliable, finally this was too much for the army. The two marshalls' huge popularity with the military gave them a strong backing in the army. Most of the party top was captured, but Stalin and Molotov escaped, and a limited civil war broke out.
Most of the Russian army stayed put at the front while the two factions fought with a few divisions each. But without a highcommand structure they were not able to mount any attacks on the Germans, but they could defend, and the Germans were willing to let the Russians sit there.
The war turned to the west...
~:cheers: :jumping: :cheerleader: :dancing: :2thumbsup: :thumbsup:
We made it. Can't believe it!
Well, Kraxis, this is really your masterpiece! :bow: Congratulation!!
And thank you!
VICTORY! Now for some much needed R&R for the God of War. Wasn't he near having a stroke earlier? Civil war in Russia, limited Allied progress in Italy. Wonder what is up in France, and why are the Germans not taking advantage of the strife in Russia? Seems like it would be harder to mount a coordinated defense.
Great work Kraxis. Brilliant Writting. Thanks for taking the time write this. Again, brilliant.
Well, it looks like that's the end. The result is certainly far better for the Germans than I would have expected. The victory is complete and decisive, despite heavy losses. Russia is effectively knocked out of the war, and it's left to the Western allies to finish off the Germans alone.
I admit that I did not expect the German infantry in the southern line to hold out as well as they did. Apparently they did have a few tanks left with them, which I didn't realize. I also didn't think that the 800,000 Russians surrounded in the bulge would succumb so easily; I expected a bit more from an organized breakout.
One wonders how this might've changed history, of course. I would guess that the Western allies would still have won in the end, albeit after a longer period of time and significantly higher losses. Less influence from the Soviet Union on Eastern Europe after the war, perhaps - no Eastern bloc, no Iron Curtain? But, of course, the dreadful holocaust would have been dragged out as well, causing far more deaths. The outcome would've been horrible no matter what.
Kraxis, you've done an excellent job, and I thank you for much thought-provoking entertainment. Because of you I now know much more than I ever did about the battle of Kursk. :bow:
Finally, I have a question: does anyone have links to the earlier Interactive History threads? I have the one about Antiochus, but I wouldn't mind seeing how the others turned out.