Excellent, thank you for the link. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
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Excellent, thank you for the link. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
Actually I agree with Reenk Roink uo to a certain point. I have no problem at all with peaceful protests against newspapers that print these cartoons.
That would be exercising the right of free speech in the same way as the newspapers did with the cartoons.
By boycotting Danish products in general people are already going a step too far IMO, as this would mean punishing people who had nothing to do with the publication of the cartoons - this would mean using the same broad brush as people who consider all muslims as potential terrorists.
The use of violence is not excusable at all.
And in Iraq there are no Mulsim bombers killing muslims? All allied troops get killed? And you may view it as splitting hairs but in the areas the British control people are more scared of militant muslims than the British troops - UK soldiers don't blow people up for having the wrong beliefs.
There are several current examples of Muslims killing muslims - and doing it far more often than the occupation forces are. Every bomb that goes off killing men who only wanted to help their country mature is set by a muslim. Generally there are no troops in the area.
It doesn't mask anything - the point is which you seem to gloss over when you choose is that muslims are killing the vast majority - and if the troops hadn't gone in by the numbers od dead that have been found, the death rates would be worse. Iraq should have been liberated in 1991 - but at least it has been.
When Muslims can be relied on to govern a country then they can be left alone to do so. There are few examples that I can see where that has so far occurred.
~:smoking:
You are, as ever, welcome Adrian. We shall tempt you back to the path of enlightenment yet, away from the darkside of social democracy. :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Right-wing social democracy, if you please -- you know, the kind that gets things done in this old world. We are not merely enlightened, my friend, we are the light and we are extremely powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
*throws chicken bones in the air*
Look at the muslims in Denmark, aside from one bomb threat what happened? Yet there have been calls to expel them from the country...Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm
What? :confused:Quote:
You're going to stop? Well done.
Ok, we'll have to wait.Quote:
I doubt it'll get that far.
Read: "Yep, but all that is history, or would you like me to bring up Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Besides, I've already stated that it's the Arabs own fault in the Hamas thread and that muslims do kill other muslims in Iraq, go look it up...but that masks the non-muslims killing muslims right?"Quote:
And in Iraq there are no Mulsim bombers killing muslims? All allied troops get killed? And you may view it as splitting hairs but in the areas the British control people are more scared of militant muslims than the British troops - UK soldiers don't blow people up for having the wrong beliefs.
There are several current examples of Muslims killing muslims - and doing it far more often than the occupation forces are. Every bomb that goes off killing men who only wanted to help their country mature is set by a muslim. Generally there are no troops in the area.
It doesn't mask anything - the point is which you seem to gloss over when you choose is that muslims are killing the vast majority - and if the troops hadn't gone in by the numbers od dead that have been found, the death rates would be worse. Iraq should have been liberated in 1991 - but at least it has been.
When Muslims can be relied on to govern a country then they can be left alone to do so. There are few examples that I can see where that has so far occurred.
I doubt that those suicide bombings killed more than the carpet bombs though...
Muslims who were not involved in terrorist acts all over the world apologized...they said it was against Islam. No government has given a good apology to the muslims yet. Free Speech can be abused, so can the Golden Rule, so can Religion, apologies should follow...Quote:
Actually I agree with Reenk Roink uo to a certain point. I have no problem at all with peaceful protests against newspapers that print these cartoons.
That would be exercising the right of free speech in the same way as the newspapers did with the cartoons.
By boycotting Danish products in general people are already going a step too far IMO, as this would mean punishing people who had nothing to do with the publication of the cartoons - this would mean using the same broad brush as people who consider all muslims as potential terrorists.
The use of violence is not excusable at all.
You said that all the muslims were perfectly justified in what they were doing (if this isn't what you meant and I merely misconstrued the phrase, ignore it). A light bit of protesting is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
You said that you'll leave the bombing of innocent civilians in Iraq to the Allied Co-alition, implying muslims will stop bombing innocent civilians in Iraq.Quote:
What? :confused:
Perhaps Muslims should, instead of reacting so much, root out from amongst their number those who have allowed Islam to be viewed in such a light.Quote:
Muslims who were not involved in terrorist acts all over the world apologized...they said it was against Islam. No government has given a good apology to the muslims yet. Free Speech can be abused, so can the Golden Rule, so can Religion, apologies should follow...
I hope none does. You have to make a stand against this kind of hysteria, can't allow decency, tolerance and understanding to rot your backbone away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
And you, my friend, should realise you are on the side of potentates who couldn't care less who gets bombed by whom as long as they can cling to power. My favourite Middle East blog made the point rather eloquently:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Or Does It Explode?
Just because we did it before doesn't make it right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
Totally agree here. They had every right to be offended and upset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
Boycotts are arguably misguided- but, I say it's still their right to do so.Quote:
By boycotting Danish products in general people are already going a step too far IMO, as this would mean punishing people who had nothing to do with the publication of the cartoons - this would mean using the same broad brush as people who consider all muslims as potential terrorists.
Again I agree.Quote:
The use of violence is not excusable at all.
Also, expecting the Danish government to apologize for something that a privately owned newspaper does is totally absurd. I have no doubt that the drawings were extremely offensive to many muslims. I also felt that when other papers reprinted to cartoons for little more reason than just to prove they could, they were being needlessly antagonistic. However, when people go around kidnapping people and burning down embassies because someone offended them, they quickly start to lose any sympathies I had for their position.
Are the photos we're seeing in the press indicative of the protests as a whole or just the hysterical parts that the media has latched upon?
Are European newspapers responsible for stoking this controversy by responding to Muslim anger by reprinting the cartoons?
I don't know enough about the relationship between Europeans as a whole and the Muslim world to reach any conclusions, but my initial reaction is that this is largely a bunch of religious people overreacting and trying to silence their critics.
Burnt Danish and Norwegian embassies, stormed embassy in Indonesia, pissed muslims everywhere, including in Euorpean countries; boycott actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by solypsist
No. Denmark is still the most hated.Quote:
Are European newspapers responsible for stoking this controversy by responding to Muslim anger by reprinting the cartoons?
This is intolerable, the EU should impose sanctions on these countries immediately, and an end to aid to the Palestines until they see reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Chris
This whole thing is getting out of control.
And the Iran situation is going to make it worse.
Got that right. remains to be seen what wll happen over Iran though, probably just some token sanctions and thats it.Quote:
This whole thing is getting out of control.
And the Iran situation is going to make it worse.
I fear that is not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Emperor
How many things are trivialized in the name of faith?
Well a similar, tough relative minor, event took place here a while ago. The artist León Ferrari, portrayed the image of Jesus in various ways, one of them particualary offende the archbishop who immediatly fired up the hearts of the Christian mass. The mob reached the museum and basically blocked it. At one point they even entered and started destroying many art pieces inside. The result of all this: the government banned this artwork. Yes intolerance won, and I presume this will not be different. LINK to the history (in spanish).
In a society the people tend to forget faster about their responsabilities towards their fellow man and to respect their wishes and their opinions, than they forget their own conformity and the equivocal superiority of their own believes. In the name of that a simple act of expression generates havoc. It's incredible.
I'm of the opinion that this people can be as offended as they want to (many people are offended for many things, it doesn't matter how ridicolous or menial it seems) but taking this step is totally outrageous. It shouldn't, under any ocassion be banned or forbidden or restricted in anyway, the government or the private entity shouldn't apolagize, but reafirm their actitudes, and anyone who continues with this meaningless rebellion should be dealed accordingly.
I'll not give more turns, I'll try to be direct. Blame faith for this. This people (and I'm talking about religious people, truly faithful people) have the image of their idols in an altar, above all that's true, real and pure, as the human life, the freedom and why not social estability. When everybody start to respect the man, more than they respect their personal feelings or their idols or ideals, then we can talk about citizenship.
I think the best point is that here in Europe people can have either point of view. They can agree or they can protest. As long as all are peaceful that is fine.
If I were to go to any of these Islamic countries and state a point of view I'd probably be lynched - and would the government give an apology? :laugh4:
The Bible also has strong things to say about Idolatry. Doesn't mean that many christians use them, and as far as I am aware in the 21st Century none get destroyed for being displayed.
Religion should be a force of good. If it clearly fails to be so, it needs to be fundamentally altered.
Oh, and I agree that any country that decided to disrespect a european national flag should have all aid immedaitely cut off, and preferably all loans called in to boot.
I view the burning of my national flag with the same passion and utter loathing of the perpotrators as muslims appear to view those cartoons. I'd not advocate casting the first stone, but I don't see why we need to wait for the second before showing exactly what privations can be inflicted when the EU flexes its monetry muscles. :furious3:
~:smoking:
This has gotten terribly ironic. "How dare you accuse us of only being able to solve problems through violence. We'll show them by burning their embassies and threatening their lives....":help:
We should just remove all dealings with them and start selling some better airplanes to Israel.
Did you notice that the Vatican agreed with the Mullahs? Freedom of speech is a danger to all Religions.
That is the problem when people thing they got the TRUTH. YOU are not allowed to think differently (from Torquemada to Osama Bin Laden).
But, what is worried mw is the mass protest. Moderate Muslims tried for years to convince the world that the Islamic fascist are not the representative of the real Islam, and guess what happened; Crowds all around the world demonstrated against a picture.:embarassed:
If we have to respect all faith and beliefs, to respect all superstitions, we won’t be able to live because most of them are in contradiction. Monotheism against polytheism, UFO, Paganism, atheism, spirits and shamanism, all are beliefs or convictions. If I say I am Atheist, I offend all the rest, but I say I am Pagan, I offend the others.:sweatdrop:
Heh. I am experiencing something of a meltdown myself. I have followed this row for three days and I find it increasingly difficult to even take the issue serious anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
Here we have a circle of countries with mostly semi-literate inhabitants ruled by psychopaths and tyrants, and they decide to boycott (and burn the flags, and threaten the citizens of) a free, democratic country over a few cartoons.
Hello!
Economic inequality; war in Iraq; Isabelle Adjani's breasts -- those are real issues. Some Muslims are starting to look like their own cartoon. Seeing how the historic Mohammed used to be ahead of his time in many ways, he must be turning in his grave like a one-man helicopter these days.Nah, they can crush any Muslim country any time they want, they don't need more planes. I was thinking: can't we somehow bottle a European sense of humour, irony and self-respect and ship it to, say, Washington? As an experiment? And if that works and they find words to defend free speech over there, maybe we can send the next one to Jordan or Egypt, and so on? Easy, easy, catchy zombie?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
“Heh. I am experiencing something of a meltdown myself.” I got the same feeling. But on another way: I am concerned (in UN meaning) how was my first reaction. More kind of let’s nuke all these people, or at least, let’s them died in their own ignorance. And THAT is the danger of extremists; they push you to be like them. I saw that in Bosnia. The ultra Nationalists got their goal. Instead to find a multi-cultural peace, we created mini-states.:help:
Now, the speech of Koffi Anan was a shame.:furious3:
When Zola published “J’accuse” in the Aurore Newspaper, he offended the French Nation of the time. He went against the French Feeling (not all, but at least a huge proportion of them), as Voltaire did for Callas.
When the French Revolution stated that all men are equal, that also offended a lot of people and Counties (all Europe, basically) where the public order was still based on St Augustan distinction and order (those who pray, those who fight and those who work).
I am not concerned about what happened in Palestine; I would agree it is more about finally something to do (even if it’s implicated to bite the hand which fed and still feed you). I am more concerned about the Muslim reaction in European Countries. Freedom of speech is one the base of democracy. That implies sometime to heard things we don’t like, which hurt feelings.
The Muslims who felt humiliated or hurt by the drawing could and should have asked, as the laws give them right, a right of answer… But, no, they went for the violence.
At what scared me is I was ready to answer by violence. For a short time, they transform me in a vindictive man.:sweatdrop:
Why these extremists wanted to destroy Islam, I have no idea. It is a fight they can’t win. I remember in France after the bombing and London, last year, when all the politics tried and succeeded to calm down the retaliation desire of the populations against innocent Muslims.
And what happened: the actual Muslim population, living in the same countries, are now calling to kill me, or at least think that I am a legitimate target.:wall:
I was wondering, if embassies in Saudi get overrun (ala Syria and Lebanon) would Britian rethink the Eurofighter sale? It's alot of money.
The Sauds wouldn't want to loose the planes either. They'd probably get the police to shoot the crowds.
Muslims more than most others seem to feel that they are deserving of a "it's our religion which supercedes all local laws and conventions" card. If you want the best in democratic free speech and where you have to get on with your neighbour even when he dares laugh at a cartoon. If you prefer the "cut hands off for placing a book on the ground" there are loads of other countries that would suit you. Please leave - in a democracy that is allowed.
~:smoking:
There is no need for a violent answer. People who burn an empty embassy in downtown Damascus or storm the Danish consulate in Djakarta bearing placards that call for murder and beheading are their own caricature, you know? If this goes on we won't need cartoons any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Well, the larger British and French Muslim organisations actually declared against all violence. And the largest British Muslim body yesterday immediately called for the arrest of the group of London Muslims who briefly demonstrated demanding another '7/7' and '9/11'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Most European Muslims have behaved normally by European standards, and as usual many didn't want to be involved in the first place since they have their own lives and other more important issues to look after. It is only the lunatic fringe that takes to the street.
As Adrian wisely said earlier, it is the unemployed, un-educated, bored lowlives that are causing most of the trouble - organized by fanatics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Peasant
Norway is taking the burnt embassy case to the UN. Let`s see how that works out..
I feel that the UN will do nothing in this case, as it has no economic or technological clout of its own other than that which it is allowed by its disparate members. The EU must take the lead if it sees itself as a credible entity, or embryonic state. In fact, this is one thing that will unite almost all Europeans and if the EU can't harness that feeling then it cannot pretend to represent the peoples of Europe, or not in its present form at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Chris
edit. this concerns all European states, even Norway which is not a member of the EU.
Yes, the lunatics who threaten are absurd, or would be if they weren't so deadly serious. But thier threats are not idle ones; just ask Theo Van Gogh.
The essential fact is that it doesn't matter how thoroughly they make caricatures of themselves if they accomplish their goal - making people afraid to criticise Islam. What does it matter how crazy or foolish they look if people are too afraid to speak about it or ridicule them? What is the difference between silence though fear and laws against criticism of Islam?
Many elites have tried to pass this off not printing the cartoons or doing anything else to anger Muslims as 'sensitivity'. But as Mark Steyn brillantly said:
Europe needs to demonstrate that they are not afraid to print, and continue printing, these cartoons or other things that question Islam. European leaders need to protect their citizens and make them safe from thuggish retaliation.Quote:
One day the British foreign secretary will wake up and discover that, in practice, there's very little difference between living under Exquisitely Refined Multicultural Sensitivity and Sharia. As a famously sensitive Dane once put it, "To be or not to be, that is the question."
Crazed Rabbit
P.S. About the 'Vatican' statement:
It was made by a Cardinal, who is a retired diplomat. He does not reflect the official position of the Vatican.
Cardinal Achille Silvestrini said:Quote:
"Freedom is a great virtue but it must be shared and it must not be unilateral. Freedom of satire that offends the feelings of others becomes an abuse, and here we are talking about nothing less than the feelings of entire peoples who have seen their supreme symbols affected."
I want to live in a multiracial but not multicultural society. There is one culture: British. It alters though the years as those that make up Britain change.
BUT we speak English here. If you don't, then why are you here? There IMO are certain things that it is up to the individual to tolerate of the state, or they can leave. Again, these tenants alter slowly over time, but I feel that we are already pandering to too large degree to accommodate those that in the main have chosen to be in this country. The ports are open - please leave to a country that better suits your own views, or stay if you truely wish to do so.
~:smoking: