The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III

I have openly stated before that any attack on Carthage must be designed to take and hold their core cities. The value of these places is in their trade and it would be pure folly to strip them of their great infrastructure for short-term gain. These are not poor Gallic provinces that would aid the Republic little in the long-run. These are wealthy, prosperous cities whose control will greatly benefit us... but only if they remain intact. Strip them of their infrastructure and their use to us will be greatly diminished.

For this reason, I formally support Senator Servius Aemilius for the position of Consul. This competition between the Aemilii puts me in a difficult position and I wish it to be clear that I believe the Republic will be in good hands, regardless of the outcome of this election. However, both Consuls are proposing raiding Carthage rather than conquering it. So be it, but Marcellus Aemilius plans to strip all of their cities bare, something that I do not believe is in the Republic's best interests. If we cannot conquer them now, then we should hold back from anything more than destroying their armies and enslaving their children to work in our mines. When the time eventually comes for us to conquer Carthage fully, we will then reap the rewards of earlier restraint.

Ok, a little explaining is needed.

The reason I proposed a series of raids is that we do not know how many Carthaginian forces there are out there. Our spy Decius Curtius is currently around Thapsus - he should be sent to the unknown area. I estimate that there will be at least three Consular-size armies to the west of Carthago, probably closer to five.

Five Consular-size armies in the heart of their lands, Conscript Fathers. And that's just near the coast. Who knows how many more are lurking deeper in the desert?

A direct invasion while Carthage is at full strength is foolishness, Senators. We simply do not have the resources to completely conquer Afrika. These raids will not knock out the entire cities, just their military buildings. The purpose of them is to get enough money so that we can stablilize our economy, and be strong enough to fully challenge Carthage later.

This is the same thing that happened with Greece and Macedon all over! We go in with the prospect of conquering land, and making money but it turns out that pacifying them costs too much and we've opened up whole other cans of worms now. If Carthage is taken over we will border Iberia on her homeland. I shudder to think how many armies they have there.

Please Senators, use your heads. Carthage will be conquered, but it must be a gradual process. This is but the first step.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: The list of motions and their seconders (first post in this thread) is up to date. Please notify me of any errors spotted. Some motions still lack two seconders.

The deadline for motions and candidates is 6pm (UK time) on Sunday and there will follow a 24 hours period of voting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by econ21

[b][NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]
Motion 11.19: This house instructs that any Carthaginian settlements taken be permanently held.

---

Might I request that you add the addendum unless the strategic or tactical situation is such that a withdrawal is the more prudent option.

I would hate to see a Consul impeached because he withdraw a handful of auxilia from a worthless city as an enemy Consular army bore down upon him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi

Might I request that you add the addendum unless the strategic or tactical situation is such that a withdrawal is the more prudent option.

I would hate to see a Consul impeached because he withdraw a handful of auxilia from a worthless city as an enemy Consular army bore down upon him.

---

{Cornelius Saturninus}

I concur with Senator Paullus about this. It is never good to put extra restrictions and limit tactical and strategic options in such a way. I must request a change in the motion for further support of it.

Furthermore, I'd like to second the following motions.

11.16
11.18

We need another seconder for Motion 11.18, it is imperative. Please do so senators.

I will second Motion 11.18 then.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I wonder if this revision of motion 11.19 is acceptable:

"This house requires that any campaign in Carthaginian territory in Africa be aimed at permanent occupation, not raiding and subsequent abandonment."

I have no interest in impeaching future First Conuls or making them fight to the last man for some worthless settlement. However, it is an important decision whether we go into Africa for a grand raid or for permanent occupation.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

As long as it is not forcefully mandated that every single Carthaginian city we take must be held immediately, all will be well. I believe the revision is acceptable. The details will be left up to the Consul's discretion.

The reworded motion 11.19 is acceptable to me, and as such I will second it

I will also second motion 11.18

I am not particularly satisifed with either of the candidates' proposals for dealing with Carthage. It would appear that they are afraid to confront the might of Carthage directly. They are certainly not cowards, so it must be their inexperience. They've never commanded a large army, and I don't think they've ever seen a proper Roman Consular Army in action, although they might have read about one. They're simply unaware that no possible Carthaginian force can defeat one. Maybe if the Carthaginians succeed in coordinating the efforts of three or more of their large armies, but they've never been able to do that, they're far too disorganized. Why, they only have a handful of them. Five, according to the estimate of Marcellus Aemilius. We could crush them in five battles! A steady stream of reinfrocements and local mercenaries ought to be able to make up for the losses.

But I guess that's not an option this time around. I suppose I'd support Servius Aemilius because at least his plan involves eventual conquest. That's assuming that he doesn't cancel the invasion on the grounds that it would be too risky!

Servius's clerk ponders the remark for a moment before offering his reply.

My master's feet are set firm in the sands senator Coruncanius. Though a 'steady stream' of reinforcements may be difficult to achieve with our meager fleet somehow needing to be in multiple places at once, we were counting on a significant number of mercenaries, perhaps Berbers or Iberians, to help reinforce any gap in our lines. But the lands we take will be held.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Now that I have had a chance to study the manifestoes and words of the two candidates, I must declare myself in favour of Servius Aemilius. I apologise to Marcellus Aemilius for retracting a premature undertaking of support that I had made earlier in private. I believe both candidates would be worthy choices, but the key issue for me is that we go to Carthage as conquerors, not raiders.

Very well, it seems that the Senate has opted for my nephew Servius. I will not withdraw my candidacy, but hope that the strategy that you have agreed to is a wise choice, and also hope that Senator Coruncanius is correct when it comes to the handling of the Consular Army.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In view of events on the Senate floor, I am reinstating motion 11.14 - I believe we should drive away the Carthaginians from Sardinia and Melite first, before landing a Consular army in Africa. We could still begin by landing the Praetorian army in Lepcis Magna, if the First Consul wishes it (for example, to bait Carthaginian armies to leave the area around Carthage).

As well as removing two blots on the landscape, reclaiming the islands may provide useful experience for the leader(s) of our African expeditions. It might also give the Carthaginians more time to take the bait and march to Lepcis Magna, if the intention is to land a force near Carthage.

If we are going to Africa, we should do it right and that means removing the Carthaginian invaders from our lands first.

I agree, and therefore second motion 11.14

{Cornelius Saturninus}

Senators, I would like to propose -

Motion 11.20 "Upon the conquest of Carthage, the city be renamed to New Rome".

Seeing as how the invasion and conquest of Afrika will be a milestone in our glorious history, and the city of Carthage itself will be a great resource for our Republic, I think it fitting to rename the city as proposed as a testament to Roman expansion and Roman rule. It will also make it easier for the new people's to assimilate and become good Roman producers for our benefit.



OOC: This is possible in 1.5 and BI. Would be a cool way to implement it for our game ~:) . Of course, if there is a better suggestion for any other name, that can be made known. "New Rome" is just the first thing that came into my head, but it could have something to do with Jupiter or other Roman gods, or some other Roman name for some RP purpose. Maybe the name of a great general who conquers the city or leads the campaign. I think that'd probably make it the most interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by econ21

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In view of events on the Senate floor, I am reinstating motion 11.14 - I believe we should drive away the Carthaginians from Sardinia and Melite first, before landing a Consular army in Africa. We could still begin by landing the Praetorian army in Lepcis Magna, if the First Consul wishes it (for example, to bait Carthaginian armies to leave the area around Carthage).

As well as removing two blots on the landscape, reclaiming the islands may provide useful experience for the leader(s) of our African expeditions. It might also give the Carthaginians more time to take the bait and march to Lepcis Magna, if the intention is to land a force near Carthage.

If we are going to Africa, we should do it right and that means removing the Carthaginian invaders from our lands first.

---

No!

Have the deaths of Amulius Coruncanius and Publius Pansa taught you nothing? Romans, while strong, are not invincible!

Senators, please, I beg of you to reclaim your sanity! What are our motives here? Is it to invade Carthage and make money or simply kill as many of them as we can before we are overwhelemed?!

If the Senate commands me to attack Consular-size forces on Sardinia and Melite, then my army will be battle-worn even before the invasion starts! And then there's still the fact that there's the massive amounts of troops on the actual bloody continent! As word of this debate reaches my army their morale gets lower every day. They believe you send them to their deaths!!!

Opposition to my plan has been universal, but look at my most vocal critics. Numerius Aureolus is far away in Byzantion. Not even he dares to invade Asia Minor, instead just wishes to raid it - just like my plan with Carthage! Cornelius Saturnius talks of glorious achievements and conquests, what does he care? He's safe in Tylis with his legion. He might see some action against Thrace or take Rhodes, but he's not about to face giant army after giant army!

Please Senators, I beg of you to tell me what I did wrong so I may know why you wish to see me dead along with my men.

Well, Senator Marcellus Aemilius, if you feel that you are unable to execute the orders which the Senate and the Consul give to your army, then feel free to request to be relieved from your post. I am sure that there is no shortage of brave men who would very much wish to act as your replacement.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Marcellus Aemilius, I have no objection to conquering Asia. Give me a Consular army and you may be surprised at the results.

However, I do believe that conquering Carthage is the more natural first move before venturing deep into Asia. I agree, we should not underestimate the challenge. In part, I am proposing reclaiming the islands as an exercise to gauge how well the Consular army performs against strong Carthaginian opposition. This will allow us to judge what level of support it requires. If as a result, the next Consul decides that invading Carthage requires two Consular armies, then I would not object.

I agree with you - five Consular sized armies in Africa are a challenge. To simply land one Consular army there and battle them all would be reckless. At the very least, it would need a continual flow of reinforcements to make sure our Consular army is kept up to full strength, after detaching garrisons and replacing losses. A simple strategy would be to land the Consular army with the Praetorian one at Lepcis Magna and fight our way up to the coastal road to Carthage. The Consular army, supported by a Praetorian army providing replacements, should be able to endure whatever the Carthaginians throw at it, provided a steady stream of replacements is ensured.

If we first provoke the Carthaginians to move on Lepcis Magna while we retake the islands, that would be to our advantage. It will take them longer to reach Lepcis Magna that it would our Consular army, even after retaking the islands. The Carthaginians would be further away from their reinforcements. Furthermore, with a phalanx-based army like that of Carthage, we would have an advantage fighting defensive battles - we can tire out our opponents before combat starts.

Senator Marcellus Aemilius, you seem to assume that any losses the Consular army suffer retaking the islands will not be made good. Given the priority assigned to the forthcoming Afrika campaign, this is not a reasonable assumption. There is no reason we cannot make good those losses (unless they are catastrophic, in which case we need to rethink the whole project or at least its commander). Indeed, throughout the campaign, I believe the Consul must strive to make good any losses suffered by the Consular army, until the major Carthaginian armies are all defeated, unless it is to be ground down into nothing. This reasoning is also why, in motion 11.13, I propose building up our eastern armies to Consular strength.

Motion 11.14 is partly a motion about pacing. I agree it would not be prudent to land a single under-strength Consular army in Afrika. I envisage the invasion of Afrika as a slow, deliberate exercise. The strength of the opposition, our limited resources and the wide open spaces involved imply that it will not be a quick blitz. I imagine it could be completed in the next five years, but it would not be a great loss if it takes longer.

I second motion 11.20.

Following private communication with Servius Aemilius, I am also revising motion 11.13 to give the next First Consul more flexibility:

revised Motion 11.13: This Senate recognises that the Seleucia will relentlessly attack the Republic with large armies. However, it notes that the distance between Maronia and Byzantion makes it impractical to defend them with just one army. Consequently, it so instructs the First Consul to work towards establishing two Consular sized armies to hold against Seleucia, each with a chirurgeon.
Proposed: Numerius Aureolus
Seconded: Manius Coruncanius, Augustus Sempronius

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by econ21

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In view of events on the Senate floor, I am reinstating motion 11.14 - I believe we should drive away the Carthaginians from Sardinia and Melite first, before landing a Consular army in Africa. We could still begin by landing the Praetorian army in Lepcis Magna, if the First Consul wishes it (for example, to bait Carthaginian armies to leave the area around Carthage).

---

I cannot and will not support this motion! The Carthaginian armies on Melite and Sardinia are no threat to us! Thanks to the tireless efforts of Concul Lucius Aemilius the Carthaginian navy is all but wiped out and it will take them many seasons to rebuild it. The enemy armies on those 2 islands can do nothing to us, and the islands themselves are sparsely populated and of little value.

If we are to win this war with Carthage whilst we are faced with so many other challanges, we must strike fast, strike hard, and hit them where it hurts!!. Landings on these islands will only further delay the main course, which is the taking of North Africa. Furthermore, it will whittle down our strength, requiring reinforcements (which will be needed elsewhere), thus causing even more delays.

No, I say conquer Africa first, then we can defeat these armies at out leisure.

In light of recent evidence and opinions, I must withdraw my support for motion 11.14 I see now that if we hit Carthage hard at her homeland, she will be crippled. The Carthaginian armies on Sardinia and Melite are there because Carthage wants to know of an invasion before it happens. We must fight them on our terms, right where it will hurt them most; Afrika.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: I am now closing this session of Senate - no more motions may be proposed or seconded. The results of the Consul elections and the voting will be announced in 24 hours.

It comes to me, as eldest living Male in my family to now speak in favour of Senator Servius Aemilius for Consul.

Long have our two families been at odds but, today this bickering feud ends.

I will be happy to serve under Servius Aemilius as a loyal member of the Republic and I will rebuild my family alongside the Aemilius's as the new Consul leads us into a new era of prosperity.

Granted, it seems a wild dream at this moment. Such talk of prosperity must appear at odds with our situation but I can see such a dawn if we are lead by this stout citizen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Braden

It comes to me, as eldest living Male in my family...

---

Hey! I'm not dead yet!

Conscript fathers,

I am placed with an impossible dilemma. Two members of my family, strong and proud men, who I am proud to be pater familias of, are both striving for that most exalted of positions, the position of First Consul.

As you can see, senators, whomever I will back as my choice, all I will achieve is a Pyrrhic victory here. I hope my family will see that my choice for first consul is not driven by a lack of respect for their skills, but for concern about the fate of our great Republic.

My son Marcellus is of course correct that Carthage is a formidable enemy and this is a very risky expedition. I have pointed this out myself, but I have also explained that our best long term strategy is the conquest of Carthage, no matter the cost.
Realize fully what I imply here, senators. We must succeed in this war of conquest against Carthage or perish as a nation. If this means starving our armies on our other fronts from reinforcements, then so be it. If it means losing territory in the east, or even the west, then so be it. We must succeed in bringing the sons of Dido into our fold !
The conquered cities must not be pillaged more than necessary (i.e. military and auxilia buildings and slaves) and then they will provide a vital boost to our economy. Initially I suggest only conquereing the Cartheginian heartland, as the desert villages are hardly profitable conquests, but then I advise destroying Carthage as a nation completely, to stop the inevitable endless desert raids from the south. Iberia should not be greatly troubled by this expedition, as we are attacking their enemy, and contrary to many reports I've heard there is no landroute at Gibraltar to my knowledge, so Iberia will not interpret this as a new threat to her border (and besides, we already share a border with Iberia).
My main concern, really my only concern is that this is a war of conquest which will remove an enemy and provide us with a profitable new province. As my son Marcellus, who I would have backed due to his experience and age, has not changed his views from raiding to conquest, I am left with no other option but to support my grandson Servius instead.

Lastly, I would like to point out that I never said two consular armies were underway to Carthage. I even stated that this was not the case, but clearly my messages to the senate have gone unheeded by some.

OOC : Rome was great.

Tiberius Coruncanius,
Greatest apologies Elder (OOC: Miss read the current .sav files family tree), but I am sure you agree that at this time our internal feud with the Aemilius’s should cease immediately. The Republic needs us united behind a strong Consul and as both were Aemilius’s we must support them as a family Elder.

Senator Lucius Aemilius,

I hope I did not imply that you had stated that two Consular armies were underway. I did not, to clarify for your honour you did not state that but neither did I state that you had. Rather only, that you had pledged that two such forces would be ready for that invasion but they are not ready whilst our future Consul is already on board ships and ready to strike.

Tis old news now and bares not taking further but I wished only to make you and the Senate aware that I would not slander you intentionally.

Carthage……now Senators, assuming that the predictions of their forces are correct that I have heard here, three perhaps four Consular armies, then it is very possible that we can defeat them.

However, we certainly DO need two Consular armies to do this. NOT because one Consular army plus the expanded Praetorian army are insufficient to destroy those armies in the field but it is rather a question of logistics.

Assume we land and immediately strike at Carthago, we take it with our usual efficiency, then we wish to move on to Hadrumentum which is now re-enforced. Do we split our Consular army significantly to garrison Carthago before marching onto Hadrumentum to face perhaps two Consular sized formations PLUS the city walls?

No, far more tactically sound to raise two Consular armies, invade and take both cities at the same time and then take apart the Carthaginian military in detail whilst safe in the knowledge that we can KEEP both cities both suppressed AND safe from a counter strike by the Carthaginians.

Currently, we do not have the coin, the population OR time to recruit that 2nd Consular army. We may have these requirements in 2 years time but not now.

We can strike against Carthage now, to a lesser extent, and keep her armies away from our own lands whilst we prepare for an invasion AND we can use the military might we have already in the Consular army I am with NOW to ensure security in the East.

All this talk of Carthage has lead us away from a more immediate problem, namely Selucia.

Ah, Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, it seems that these youngsters have forgotten the level of respect due to their elders. We of the old guard must make sure they remember the services of all those who came before them. Bah, there are some here today who never even heard the great Quintus speak! Children in the Senate...

Augustus,

I wish you great success on the battlefield in the difficult time to come but should your sword prove to be as sharp as your wit Sir, I have a butter knife you can borrow……

(OOC: :laugh4: )

You speak the truth, Augustus Verginius. It's funny how everyone is going on about the great 'crisis' Rome is in. Yeah, we have many enemies, but they are far away. Our many mighty armies have been handily defeating them in most engagements. And our terrible financial situation means that we're only making over 10000 denarii per year. Yeah, what a great crisis that is. I'll tell you what a crisis is. A crisis is when you peak over the walls of Rome and see Pyrrhus of Epirus (remember that guy?) sitting outside with an uncountable multitude of men and hundreds, maybe thousands of elephants! Well, my memory isn't what it used to be, but I think that's how it was. Sure, they read about the battle, and think, "ok, some guy named Quintus defeated some Greek army." Yeah, that's happened many times since. What they don't realize is what a weak state Rome was in, and how close it came to perishing completely! It's because of men like Quintus that a "crisis" can mean that we can only undertake one major invasion at a time! Not three, it's a crisis! Run for your lives!!

Senator Manius Coruncanius,

I am pleased to see our differences reconciled and I applaud your efforts to unite the senate behind the next first consul.
I am of course aware of the Seleucid threat, but we can gain no victory in the East. If the situation warrants it, I even recommend withdrawing from the East so as to concentrate on our offensive against Carthage. It is best to strike hard at the hornet's nest then to continue to swat at single hornets.
When Rhodes is taken, I recommend that the first consul makes peace with the Ptolemaic empire, and if possible, forges an alliance with them. It is clear that the Ptolemaic empire is losing ground to the Seleucid empire (sotto voice : as I predicted, Tiberius Coruncanius), and if they are crushed then the Seleucid empire will become nigh unstoppable.
I also recommend that the first consul orders Titus Vatinius to crush the numerous bands of brigands than are plundering our Greek and Illyrian provinces.

OOC : I see that I incorrectly blamed econ21 for using his auguries. My sincere apologies for jumping the gun there.