Imperial Diet V

King Jan,

It wont take me very long to provide you with directions regarding Damascus should Lord Zirn not recover...god forbid that!!

I already manage four provinces myself. You are the adminsitrator and King of the region.

All would ask in the event there is no Count from Austria in Outremer is a briefing on the situation and a recommendation. You would get your response from me is short order as part of my overall adminsitrative responsibilities.

Duke Arnold,

I appreciate you laying out what you would want and need regarding this matter. I figure it would be better to provide an opportunity to get more information and have you simply disregard what you do not want to know at your whim. Better to provide too much information than too little. But now that I know your preferred administrative model, I will keep my reports to you to be short and curt in the event that there is no Austrian Crusader Count.

Jens Hummel:

Please, feel free to to keep your speeches in the Diet short and curt too, von Hamburg!

*He bursts out laughing for several minutes after this. The scent of alcohol is wafting throughout the Diet chambers.*

Jan smells alcohol.

A beer would be nice right now.

Wolfgang Hummel stands and addresses the Diet.

Mein electors, I will not delay you for long. But I would fain speak.

Many of you have rightly condemned me for mein actions in the Levant. However, I ask to not be tarred with the same brush as mein father, Chancellor Hummel.

I intend to fully listen to the Dukes if elected, and offend no House intentionally. Of course, I shall rule the gut of the Reich overall, but I will not favour or spurn any particular House.

Concerning foreign policy, I would take the sword to the Sicilians. They are weak and spread out, and crippling them now would save us much trouble later. They are also fighting the Moors, who are currently preventing the Spanish from crossing the strait of Gibraltar and thus into Africa.

The French are able to be held, thanks to the strenuous efforts of Duke Frederich of Swabia, and King Davy of England. The Scottish king also has landed on the continent, and I propose that we ally ourselves with the Scots.

Edict 12.4: "The Scots are to be approached with an offer of an alliance. No more than 5,000 florins may be exchanged in order to bring this about."

If I am elected, no direct invasion of Spain shall take place. The Iberian peninsular is too far away at this present time to mount an effective campaign.

I also intend to strengthen the eastern frontier against the Poles and Russians. Extra men, if needed, shall be speedily sent to Thorn where the Franconians shall decide where they be sent.

In Italy, I shall take steps to secure our lucrative cities of Venice, Genoa, Milan, and Florence, from Sicilian attack. Garrisons shall be strengthened, and walls kept in a defensible state.

In Saxony, His Holiness allowing, I shall launch excursions north right into the heart of Denmark. I will construct a fort blocking the shallows from Denmark into the land of Swedes, and blockade the Danish ports.

In the Outremer, I will coordinate greatly with the King and his counts to effectively manage the Mongol invasion. They are the ones who know the lie of the land, and are most able to defeat the Mongols.

I will also take steps to prevent our allies, the Portuguese, from succumbing to either the French or Spanish. Such allies are rare, and cannot afford to be abandoned.

I will also maintain an effective intelligence service, so that the Reich need not be suprised by any enemy. Spies shall be sent into all our enemies' lands that we may assess their strength and their weak points.

Finally, I will also build up our navies in both the Mediterranean and Baltic seas. We must not allow ourselves to be defeated at sea.

Thank you, mein electors, for your time.

Wolfgang bows to the Kaiser and resumes his seat.

Jan walks in and kind of just looks at Wolfgang with an amused smirk.

As a matter of book keeping, Acre no longer has a Crusader Count. Count Hans has expressed his wish to return to the Reich as soon as the war with the Mongols is stabilized.

Shaking his head in wonderment, the Duke of Austria leans foward locking a deathly gaze on Wolfgang

You there!!!??

The one over there talking about running for Chancellor!!

Pointing at Wolfgang directly

Are you forgetting something or do you simply want me to ensure you lose any chance you may have of giving a good account of yourself in this election!!??

Jan hears Duke Arnold. Curious, he goes over the transcript of Wolfgang's manifesto. Jan breaks out in laughter.

Wow, it would indeed be difficult to get elected when you ignore roughly a quarter of the Reich in your Election planks.

*A somber Fritz von Kastilien stands slowly*

Though discussion has died down, I must say a word on CA 12.2, in the hope of influencing some of the Electors present.

Although I agree in spirit with this motion, surely it will open up a huge new field for exactly what it is attempting to legislate against -- confusing the issue.

*Fritz holds up a piece of parchment and squints at it*

Who decides what legal matters are "simple" and which are complex? Who decides what "over-complicating" is, and when does it become "excessively over-complicating"?

Is any question against any law going to be found "excessively over-complicating"? Or are only certain laws complex enough to avoid this law's restrictions? Which ones? Shall we then pass more resolutions marking some laws as simple and others as not simple? And how will we contain the inevitably heated and dreadful discussions that arise from such decisions?

These are all rhetorical questions at this point, my friends, and none of us need answer them at this time. But if CA 12.2 passes, they will no longer be rhetorical questions. They will be questions this body has to deal with. And I for one would rather spend my time on other pursuits.

These are indeed good questions Count Fritz. I suspect one way to deal with the legislation, if it passes, would be to say "I'm sorry" after every single mention of legal matters. The law would say you would be banned until apologizing so that is one way around that.

*chuckles*

Jens Hummel:

I shall ensure that this is the last time you ever make fun of one of my legal proposals, sir.

You really need to grow a thicker skin Count Jens. Having your legislation nitpicked apart, disected, and ridiculed is part of our process. It happens to all of us to varying degrees.

And I wasn't totally joking. We do need to figure out how to deal with CA 12.2 if it passes.

While I would not support 12.2 due to its vagueness, I personally would support its inherent message.

Jens Hummel:

Legislation is not ridiculed, for that is a most unchivalrous thing to do, especially for one who is the King of Outremer. People simply explain the faults of it but they do not ridicule it. It is clear that you simply have it in for me, and this I will remember.

Count Hans,

I agree with you that its inherent message is good. But, as legislation, it is next to useless. Without the mechanics to describe what is to be punished and how, it will just kind of sit there. The way it is worded, the work-around I mentioned should be enough to get past it.

Count Jens,

Remember what you wish. I do not "have it in for you". I remember when I was young, outspoken, and brash in the Diet. It seems like it was only yesterday.... Wait, it was only yesterday.

Anyways, despite what you may think, nothing you said has actually hurt me. What you have said may not have presented you in the best light to the rest of the Diet however. I only hope you don't direct your misplaced aggression towards someone less patient than myself.

Jens if you cannot handle the mild and justified critiscism of your legislation made by King Jan and Count Hans then you are not ready to participate in this Diet. Just explain to them why they're wrong, don't threaten them.

*Fritz sighs heavily, and stands again*

I believe, friends, that the gentlemen *he nods at Jens* was not reacting to a criticism of his legislation. I heard him say nothing at all rebutting my words. Rather, he was reacting to the tone in which Jan chose to express himself. There is an obvious difference between criticism and ridicule. Criticism is centred on discussion of specific problems. Ridicule involves less... concrete, ah, details. I chose one route, Jan chose the other.

It would obviously be better if we simply let the matter drop and concentrated on discussion of the legislation rather than discussion of the Electors.

Count Fritz,

You speak wisdom my cousin. I will try to improve the discourse of the Diet by embracing healthy criticism and avoiding ridicule.

*nods his head to the Count out of respect*

I will also take this oppurtunity to publicly apologize to Count Jens for ridiculing his legislation. I will endeavor to threat him and his ideas with the respect they both deserve.

I will second edict 12.4 (the scottish alliance one), Although I have no strong feelings either way, I believe that all legislation deserves to be voted upon by the diet.

I don't think that we should risk our english alliance to accomidate the scots though.

I will follow my father's lead and also second Edict 12.4, if only to ensure that it is put to the vote.

Elberhard: All right, the polls are up.

I must express gratitude again to the industrious scribes of Matthias Steffen (Overknight :bow:) for keeping us up to date with the proposed legislation. All mistakes are, of course, his - I mean, mine.

This full session of the Diet is closed although Electors are free to continue to listen to the sound of their own voices as usual.

Message from Ansehelm von Kastillien, as literally spoken out by him

Meine Herren
I am extremely !@#$&% off by how Outremer thinks it can do business. It's King thinks it's an !@#$&% house and that he can take away nobles from proper Duchies. Let it be !@#$&% well known to him that Outremer is not a House and can and will never be one. Whatever he wants he is not taking away nobles from Franconia, whatever he wishes. A Franconian does not need to show his !@#$&% obedience to the Outremer, as it's merely a tool, and it's King should !@#$&% well realise that. A Franconian is a Franconian, not a citizen of the Outremer, I suggest the King of the Outremer stops thinking he has a proper house, let him !@#$&% realise that he's part of the entire Reich, that he's not on his own.
I did not came this !@#$&% way to Moscow for nothing, I did this for Franconia, for the Reich. And what do you see while you are away, !@#$&% briberies by the King of the Outremer so he can get his way in things.
The late Kings would turn in their grave would they here this, they realised that their job was only minor, that they ran a part of the Reich, but that they had to realise that they had Duchies to keep in mind. This King thinks he is above all Duchies, that he is a !@#$&% Duke.

I repeat, I did not fight my entire !@#$&% way to Moscow to see some low trick being pulled off.
I suggest that the King realises this, if he doesn't he might lose the support of one of the Reichs Duchies.

Duke Ansehelm, !@#$&% annoyed

After hearing the message, Jan looks puzzled.

I am surprised that Duke Ansehelm thinks I somehow stole his Counts. I am not even sure how I would be able to do that. It is true, I did contact a couple of Franconians. They are family after all. But they were already intent on voting the way they voted. Once I saw that they already were going to vote a certain way, I wished them luck and bid them farewell. I don't even have much to offer them.

There is one exception to this. And that is Dieter. I did specifically ask Dieter to vote a certain way. He is a Crusader Count and I did not mind telling him my opinion on certain legislation. Dieter has made his own choice to be in Outremer. I did not steal him. He can leave Outremer whenever he wishes as can any person out there. Yes, while they are out there, I do ask certain things of people. But once they are off my shores, my influence ends rather abruptly.

Yes, I did vote for the Vilnius edict so Peter would vote for CA 12.9. But, I am not sure how this is "stealing" people. Many of us "horse trade" our votes. As for offering Franconians anything, I can assure you that there are no new nobles coming to Outremer at this time. I wish this were not true, for I would love to have more people, but it is fact. I haven't even spoken to my brother since he appeared in the Diet so I have no idea why he voted the way he did.

I do not see Steward Hans, Duke Gerhard, or Duke Arnold having this problem with their Counts. Duke Ansehelm obviously did not convince his people to vote the way he wanted. Is this my fault? As for past Kings, I remember King Salier specifically asking us Crusader Counts to vote a certain way so its not some new idea.

I am sorry if Duke Ansehelm thinks that I am somehow usurping his Ducal authority but I do not even know how I can do that. Except for Dieter, I have no power to tell any Franconian to do anything. If I did, they would laugh at me and they should. This is a matter of free will, not coercion.

Gert von Runstede stands
If you, as Duke or King, for that matter, want support in your Ducal edicts you go to a Duke, you don't bribe just one person, as that is undermining Ducal power.
I for one thing know, by being close to the Duke, that this is not only because of this Diet Session, but also because of the fact that you consider yourself to be more loyal to the Outremer than Franconia. Even when you were just a CC.
Now as a King you can be that, but that also means you do not belong to the house of Franconia any longer.

I have said, what I can say. Duke Ansehelm is not here now to go in to your puny accusations, but if I were you I'd start preparing for his return instead of getting drunk in the Taverns of Rome. Being a King, or a Duke or a Kaiser, is a responsible job, one cannot drown himself in alcohol every night, one has to have priorities, called the Reich. They are more important than fun, that made me commander of Duke Ansehelms infantry force, I am not one of the most important men in the Teutonic Army because I decided to go drinking every night.

That all said, I'm leaving, some people do still wish to protect the Reich instead of going for their own personal glory

Gert von Runstede walks out of the Diet

I did not bribe anyone. And I write these people because they are family just like you are. I might not be part of the house, but blood is blood. I am not sure how I am "undermining Ducal power" by writing my cousins. Your their Duke. Its your job to get them to do what you want. I can't do it for you.

As for drinking, thats my business. Heck, most of us here get plowed.

Athalfwolf stands

I think he means, Jan, is that it is going to your head. That, can mean a few diffrent things in a way.

But please correct me if I am wrong, Duke Ansehelm, is not bribing a common thing in Rome?
Athalfwolf lets out a long laugh

Why, it is been a natraul thing in German and Roman politics for hundreds of years. And our, own buiness, is no longer our own, I think I can safely say King Jan. Anything you do from here on will be closely complained about.

Count Athawolf,

I have endeavored to not let things go to my head and I pray the good Lord for strength in that struggle. Am I perfect in that? Far from it. But what I do still fail to see, is what I have done wrong in this specific matter. The Franconians did not vote exactly the way Anshehelm would have wished. How much of that can really be my fault? I can offer people all I want but they could just as simply refuse. I could coerce until I was blue in the face, but without any power in the Reich proper to back it up, I would just be spinning my wheels. I think people voted for their own reasons and I do not know what those were.

Thank you for provoking these thoughts my Count,

*Jan nods in respect*

Arnold

Anshehelm is certainly a little upset it seems.

I'm wondering whether he is getting frustrated that the Dukes really have not ability to prevent their own Nobles from going to Outremer.

Duke Arnold,

And the whole Diet as well,

Do you have any thoughts as how the Dukes could assign people to Outremer yet make it where they are not truly gone? As it stands now, it is voluntary as to whether a noble wishes to leave for Outremer. As long as the King and Chancellor agree, there is little the Duke can do. Once in Outremer, the Duke can not do anything about the noble already there. Sure they can take their county back and complain in here, but that is about it. Unless the King and Chancellor agree to send the noble back.

If there is one common theme I have heard this Diet, it is that the Dukes are feeling like they are losing control of something they should not. I have not been sensitive enough to this. So, I will ask now, how can we send people to Outremer, yet make sure they serve their own Duchy. As long as we have a mission in Outremer, there will be a need for people. But, this comes at the expense of the Duchies as Duke Arnold knows full well. For his House suffers because of the lack of manpower.

Will it require legislation? If so, what kind? Do we abandon the Outremer project? I think we shouldn't but if the project has lost support among the Duchies, then we probably should quit. We can only keep doing this if the Duchies continue to pour money and men into that land. I believe we do have a mission in Outremer. And I need the Duchies to help me. I have tried to pretend I could do this without you. But, I have basically been beating my head against the wall. So, I need to do something different. I need to convince all of you that this is all of our project. For the florins that pay for the armies in Outremer come from the farms in Franconia, the ports of Bavaria, the mines in Swabia, and merchants of Venice. The men that fill up the armies come from all over the Reich. Every noble that goes to Outremer, makes it a little harder for those who stay behind.

While I fully admit my own responsibility for this situation, according to the Diet records, this debate has been going on for a long time. If, we all no longer continue to believe that this is our project, then why are we doing this? We either need to agree to continue on, and find a way to do it that satisfies the Duchies, or leave. But the divisiveness that has grown out of this is only hurting us. I would rather we give up and come home than let this argument tear us apart.

The Kaiser has appointed me but then abandoned me to be his lightning rod for criticism. I think he had hoped that I would be a strong bulwark against Ducal power. Or, he just didn't care and spun a wheel of cards with Crusader Counts written on them so he could pick at random. I have no idea. I am tired of being a bulwark against Ducal power because I keep needing the Duchies to do anything at all. So, it seems that the wheel has turned. While I am honored to serve the Reich and the Lord, I had to say all of this. If the Kaiser disapproves of what I am saying, then he can have my resignation.

Thank you

King Jan,

Your comments are timely as the recent round of discussions has certainly elicited a very strong response.

While I've never stopped anyone of my Nobles taking the Cross to Outremer, I believe there is no real way of preventing this.

As a noble that muist initially swear fealty to their Duke, the only recourse a Duke could take against a Count would be to clearly state that the Noble will be stripped of his titles (if bonded)...possibly removing the Knighting given to him by his Duke and ensuring that he would not be allowed back into the House until such time as the Duke is happy to do so.

Before ANYONE even thinks about legislation then FORGET IT.

My house and the Ducal authority given to me by my father is absolute in my mind when it comes to Austrian affairs of state. My only concern is with the running of my Duchy is if the Kaiser were to make comment.

Of course this is the most extreme "example" I can think of and no Duke has even gone close to taking any of these actions. This is main because to date the situation has worked well.

The simplest approach...AND I LIKE SIMPLE...is to have any Noble wishing to take up the Cross to Outremer first require the consent of the Duke in question. This would be fair and just in my view as the Duchy's are where all Nobles of the Reich originate from. No one swears fealty directly to the King of Outremer before that of their Duke.

I don’t think we should abandon Outremer. However, my comments concerning Outremer still hold. Outremer is not a House. It is, in fact, made up from all parts of the original Duchies.

I believe this concept should be strengthened with further wording.

The simply feudal hierarchy of Kaiser, Prinz, Duke, Count, Baron and Elector has been disrupted by the position of King. Therefore this position should be ratified further.

In my view most will agree that the position naturally between Dukes and Counts. The title could be changed and the relationship between the position of Dukes and Counts better explained.

One such mechanism is the approval of Dukes before a member of his house can take the Cross. This reinforces the hierarchy. And other such suggestions clarifying this would also be appropriate.

In the mean time common sense, agreement a civil discourse should get us through to the next Diet session on this topic.

With an evil glint in his eyes…the tone of Arnold voice goes from reasonable to chilling.

That is of course until someone pisses me off and tries to antagonise me. As a Duke, you can do that at your peril.