The Geert Wilders trial

Also, Wilders wanted a veil tax to combat the economic crisis :P

The guy's a nut, what did you expect

Also, I know plenty of "them" too and they don't hate me :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Subotan

wat

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you are being as dumbly obtuse this time as you were on the labour is authoritarian argument:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2420450

saying that however, Louis was just as obtuse:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2420527

maybe its just me, living in a fantasy reality disconnected from the rest of the real world........ oh no, wait, someone did cotton on to what i was saying:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2420631

but let me help you out again by bolding the important bits:

Geert Wilders is not 'far Right'

By Ed West World Last updated: January 30th, 2010

Like my colleague Douglas Murray, who has already written an excellent post on the show trial of the century, I’ve been surprised by the lack of British media interest in Geert Wilders’s martyrdom in Amsterdam. An American minor celebrity only has to fart to receive blanket coverage in the British press, but when a major politician next door faces jail on trumped-up charges – in a case that will have implications for our freedom of speech – there seems to be little interest.

For those who haven’t visited these parts, Wilders is a Dutch politician on trial for “insulting” Islam by comparing the Koran to Mein Kampf, and for saying that Moroccans commit many street robberies in the Netherlands. Yes, put on trial – not fisked or twitter-lynched or condemned by the Equality Gestapo, but actually brought to court. Wilders calls it “surreal”, and it certainly seems strange that in a city where a gentleman can smoke Morocco’s most famous export and view half-naked women in shop windows, he can go to jail for criticising a religion.

What Americans – or anyone else who’s somehow missed Europe’s slide towards diversity authoritarianism – will find so strange is that it’s not even the truth of Wilder’s statement on trial. Comparing the Koran to Mein Kampf is daft – the Koran can be used for evil intent, and does justify violence in many passages, but it can, and has, also inspired much good; Mein Kampf is just plain evil. But this is a country with a long tradition of robust public debate, often of a comically abusive nature, and especially so about religion. It is part of the Dutch tradition of freedom that makes it such a pleasant society.

As for what he says about Moroccans, it is factually correct, but as one of the prosecutors said before the trial: “It is irrelevant whether Wilders’s witnesses might prove Wilders’s observations to be correct, what’s relevant is that his observations are illegal”.

How can the country that produced Spinoza have become so retarded? It all began with the Nazis, or more specifically with Holocaust denial, which was criminalised by France in 1990. It was an absurdly stupid law, since the number of Europeans who don’t believe the Nazis murdered 6 million Jews could probably fit inside David Irving’s living room, but it was the thin end of the wedge. Laws gagging neo-Nazis were soon extended to views that were unpleasant, bigoted or, increasingly, just unfashionable and offensive, as the band of acceptable opinions in Eutopia became ever smaller. Wilders is unfashionable, certainly, but his ideas are not beyond the pale.

Alongside the criminalisation of thought crime, those within the consensus have made their opponents’ views verboten by labeling dissenters as “racist” or “Islamophobic” or comparing them to Hitler, as the Dutch media did repeatedly with Pim Fortuyn up until the day he was murdered.

Another abused term is “far-Right”, a label that the British and American media routinely apply to Geert Wilders.

The European far-Right has certain characteristics – as well as being obsessed with race, it is anti-big business, pro-state intervention, pro-worker’s rights but anti-Communist, nostalgic about the countryside and often sentimental about animals, politically paranoid and prone to conspiracy theories, anti-gay, anti-American and, most of all, anti-Semitic Zionist (just as it used to be against “cosmopolitans” and “foreign intellectuals”).

The British National Party, for instance, though not “fascist” in any meaningful sense, is undoubtedly far-Right, which is most clearly demonstrated by its attitude to America and capitalism. The extreme Right is economically closer to the Left than it is to the centre-Right, but, whatever several of my colleagues believe, it is still Right-wing (not that most BNP voters give a monkey’s either way).

Wilders’ Freedom Party is not in any sense ‘far-Right”, as its own policy statement makes:

The Party for Freedom combines economic liberalism with a conservative programme towards immigration and culture. The party seeks tax cuts (€16 billion in the 2006 election programme), de-centralization, abolishment of the minimum wage, limiting of child benefits and government subsidies. Towards immigration and culture, the party believes that the Judeo-Christian and humanist traditions should be treated as the dominant culture in the Netherlands, and that immigrants should adapt accordingly. The party wants a halt to immigration from non-western countries. It is skeptical towards the EU project, is against future EU enlargement with countries like Turkey and opposes the presence of Islam in the Netherlands. The party is also opposed to dual citizenship.

The ambiguity of the penultimate sentence is disturbing, but otherwise the party comes from the European mainstream, specifically the centre-Right tradition. Wilders simply believes that becoming a minority in one’s major cities because everyone is too embarrassed to offend anyone by raising the issue is taking northern European shyness a bit far.

Now even the Dutch establishment has downgraded him from “far-Right” to “radical Right”, barely less loony-sounding, but a start. According to Dutch News:

Geert Wilders’ political movement PVV is not an extreme right wing party but contains some radical right wing elements, according to a report into radicalisation in the Netherlands by Tilburg University research group IVA.

PVV statements on ‘islamisation’ and non-western immigrants appear to be discriminatory and the party organisation is authoritarian rather than democratic, the researchers say.

The researchers, who were looking into polarisation and radicalism across the Netherlands, describe the PVV as ‘new radical right’, a party with a national democratic ideology but without extreme right wing roots. In particular, the party’s pro-Israel stance shows it is not neo Nazi, the report states.

Nevertheless, the PVV has a preference for ‘the familiar’ and turns against things which are ‘foreign’ and its political opponents, the report said. This, coupled with an authoritarian tendency show it leans towards a national democratic ideology. And on the internet, for example, the party is a magnet for extreme views, the researchers point out.

Wilders himself called the new description “scandalous”, and I hardly blame him, since Encylopaedia.com describes “radical Right” in unflattering terms:

The radical right is a term applied in the United States to sociopolitical movements and political factions and parties that develop in response to supposed threats against American values and interests. Such backlashes usually stem from rapid social or economic change that sparks a reaction among groups seeking to maintain or narrow lines of power and privilege.

They justify their actions by discounting the legitimacy of their opponents, seeing them as agents of an un-American conspiracy not deserving of political respect or constitutional protection.

Discounting the legitimacy of their opponents and viewing them as not deserving of respect or legal protection – sounds awfully familiar from this side of the Atlantic.

Do ya get it now, well do ya?

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

Also, I know plenty of "them" too and they don't hate me :shrug:

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They are caught up in exactly the same thing, do you think it's easy to be a moderate muslim. It only is when it doesn't matter, but where the Islam settles it does, they don't have a real life anymore. The social control goes so far you wouldn't believe it.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

No, he doesn't. As I pointed out to Louis at length, there is very little reason to believe Wilders is strongly informed by a colonial background in his actions. By a Dutch nationalist background, yes, though, so I agree with the rest of that paragraph.

EDIT: And friend, he is not "integrated", as he was raised by a Dutch family in an overwhelmingly Dutch rural area. He is an ethnic Dutchman and is perceived as such by all Dutchmen. This is what informs him, regardless of whatever Louis and his anthropologist claim. Wilders is in no way comparable to a first-generation immigrant from a third world country.

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You have rather missed my point, Wilders may have been raised authentically Dutch, but he doesn't look authentically Dutch. Children being what they are he was probably bullied at school, which is why he dyes his hair and has an intense identification with "traditional" Dutch culture. Loius sees the resemblence and judges him acvcordingly which shows Wilders probably has reason to be senitive.

However, the fact remains that he does have non-Dutch roots in Indonesia and therefore probably thinks that those who come to the Netherlands should integrate regardless of being wholly European or not.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

You have rather missed my point, Wilders may have been raised authentically Dutch, but he doesn't look authentically Dutch. Children being what they are he was probably bullied at school, which is why he dyes his hair and has an intense identification with "traditional" Dutch culture. Loius sees the resemblence and judges him acvcordingly which shows Wilders probably has reason to be senitive.

However, the fact remains that he does have non-Dutch roots in Indonesia and therefore probably thinks that those who come to the Netherlands should integrate regardless of being wholly European or not.

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lolololol, please PVC, listen to the Wizard. Wilders is from Limburg, that is where we keep what we call 'spare-flemish'.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

lolololol, please PVC, listen to the Wizard. Wilders is from Limburg, that is where we keep what we call 'spare-flemish'.

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So he doesn't look at all Indonesian? He does, doesn't he? Loius clearly sees it, and he's not the only one.

I didn't see a need to mention the rest of the article, as my original post summed up exactly what I thought about it.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

For those who haven’t visited these parts, Wilders is a Dutch politician on trial for “insulting” Islam by comparing the Koran to Mein Kampf, and for saying that Moroccans commit many street robberies in the Netherlands. Yes, put on trial – not fisked or twitter-lynched or condemned by the Equality Gestapo, but actually brought to court

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The first is wildly inaccurate, and akin to slander. With regards to the second, he's either not on trial for saying that particular statistic, or that quote has been taken out of context.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

As for what he says about Moroccans, it is factually correct, but as one of the prosecutors said before the trial: “It is irrelevant whether Wilders’s witnesses might prove Wilders’s observations to be correct, what’s relevant is that his observations are illegal”.

How can the country that produced Spinoza have become so retarded? It all began with the Nazis, or more specifically with Holocaust denial, which was criminalised by France in 1990. It was an absurdly stupid law, since the number of Europeans who don’t believe the Nazis murdered 6 million Jews could probably fit inside David Irving’s living room, but it was the thin end of the wedge. Laws gagging neo-Nazis were soon extended to views that were unpleasant, bigoted or, increasingly, just unfashionable and offensive, as the band of acceptable opinions in Eutopia became ever smaller. Wilders is unfashionable, certainly, but his ideas are not beyond the pale.]

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There is a difference between saying
"Some of the immigrants who come into our country are radical Islamists"
And
"Islam is on par with Nazism, and should be restricted"
Wilders says both, and then tries to pass it off in court as if he only says the former.

Wilders is blatantly manipulative when he stresses the importance of freedom of speech when somebody accuses him of racism, prejudice, etc., yet throws that inherently Judeo-Christian Western value out of the window when it comes to the Koran. He's a hypocritical populist, not deserving of any attention he gets.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

Discounting the legitimacy of their opponents and viewing them as not deserving of respect or legal protection – sounds awfully familiar from this side of the Atlantic

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It does. "Lefties" are caricatured by the far-right as either sandal wearing, naive hippies who have no understanding of anything in the world or as Reds. Meanwhile, Wilders and his gangsters are portrayed as having all the answers, riding on (white) horses through Europe to save us from Islamofascism/J00s/Africans/Gypsies/Turks/etc.

EDIT: I can totally see the Indonesian resemblance.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

So he doesn't look at all Indonesian? He does, doesn't he? Loius clearly sees it, and he's not the only one.

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Maybe you are looking too hard for something that that just isn't there.

EDIT: I can totally see the Indonesian resemblance.

Perfect fit for the opinion, read the post the Wizard made, he is correct.

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Maybe you are looking too hard for something that that just isn't there.

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What is that supposed to mean?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

You have rather missed my point, Wilders may have been raised authentically Dutch, but he doesn't look authentically Dutch. Children being what they are he was probably bullied at school, which is why he dyes his hair and has an intense identification with "traditional" Dutch culture. Loius sees the resemblence and judges him acvcordingly which shows Wilders probably has reason to be senitive.

However, the fact remains that he does have non-Dutch roots in Indonesia and therefore probably thinks that those who come to the Netherlands should integrate regardless of being wholly European or not.

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Excuse me? He doesn't look Dutch? I'm Dutch, and I wasn't aware he had Indo ancestry till I read so on the English language page of a Dutch newspaper (NRC Handelsblad) some months ago, talking about the same "study" Louis beats you around the head with every post or so. So no, he does look Dutch. The vast majority of Dutchmen will tell you he looks Dutch and upon being questioned will likely say he's as much a cheesehead as the next Bergkamp.

The reason I replied to you in that way was because you uncritically took Louis's posts at face value, while they are largely untrue. Wilders is in all likelihood not strongly informed by his part-Indo background at all, as I argued at length and without rebuttal. Rather, he is strongly informed by his Dutch nationalism and narrow view of the Dutch nation, which is widely held amongst Dutchmen (something denied by our political elite for decades, with disastrous consequences).

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

The reason I replied to you in that way was because you uncritically took Louis's posts at face value, while they are largely untrue. Wilders is in all likelihood not strongly informed by his part-Indo background at all, as I argued at length and without rebuttal. Rather, he is strongly informed by his Dutch nationalism and narrow view of the Dutch nation, which is widely held amongst Dutchmen (something denied by our political elite for decades, with disastrous consequences).

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Well, Frag has now admitted he sees it. If you take another look at what I wrote you'll see that I only agree with Loius in so far as having Indonesian heritage will have somewhat shaped Wilders outlook. Let me break it down, he had an Indonesian Grandmother, who emigrated to the Netherlands and (presumably) integrated alongside her Dutch husband. He sees people emigrating to the Netherlands now, not integrating, and this causing problems and he feels that it should stop.

To me, his reaction seems somewhat oversensitive, but if one consider's his own immigrant heritage then you can see why he would be much less likely to sign up to multiculturalism than the avergae Dutchman.

This is not to suggest he has some massive racial complex, quite the opposite, if anything.

I don't see Frag agreeing to anything of the sort here...

Oh, and my point was precisely that the average Dutchman doesn't like multiculturalism quite as much as you may think, at all. It's that fact that Wilders draws from and it's at the heart of his populism.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

I don't see Frag agreeing to anything of the sort here...

Oh, and my point was precisely that the average Dutchman doesn't like multiculturalism quite as much as you may think, at all. It's that fact that Wilders draws from and it's at the heart of his populism.

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Right, fine. The fact remains, however, that Wilders is the one shouting about it, and given his fundamentally "integrationalist" approach, his indonesian aspect needs to be considered. What Frag said was that he could see the (purely physical) Indonesian resemblence in Wilders, which reinforces my point that he doesn't exactly look Dutch.

You know something's up when people are abandoning their heritage to play white.

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You know something's up when people are abandoning their heritage to play white.

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Even worse when they give it up to play black.


Been listening to any hiphop lately, Meth?

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

You know something's up when people are abandoning their heritage to play white.

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Thank you for the racist perspective, and helping to prove my point. Wilders is about 3/4 ethnic Dutch, probably less than 1/4 Indonesian, raised in the rural Netherlands and yet still there are those who will cast aspersions on the validity of his identity.

Gentlemen, no wonder he dyes his hair.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Even worse when they give it up to play black.


Been listening to any hiphop lately, Meth?[/INDENT]

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BURN....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Of course to assume hip-hop is simply a black thing is oversimplyfing things a bit, Then again MMs comment was equally as shortsighted.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Been listening to any hiphop lately, Meth?

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Sure, but this is 100x better. Anyways, I won't take the comment seriously, comin from a white buddhist and all.

EDIT: I actually got to see the Northern Cree Singers in person not too long ago. There was a big pow wow at my reserve. 'Twas awesome.

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Originally Posted by SFTS

Of course to assume hip-hop is simply a black thing is oversimplyfing things a bit, Then again MMs comment was equally as shortsighted.

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:smile:

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

I don't see Frag agreeing to anything of the sort here...

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Neither do I, wouldn't care anyway


edit, you tell them Geertje, not of word of Spanish in it.

(in Dutch) http://extra.volkskrant.nl/opinie/ar...usje_ter_Horst

that is why he is my boy

Thank you for the racist perspective, and helping to prove my point. Wilders is about 3/4 ethnic Dutch, probably less than 1/4 Indonesian, raised in the rural Netherlands and yet still there are those who will cast aspersions on the validity of his identity.

Gentlemen, no wonder he dyes his hair.

Can keep repeating it but that doesn't make it any more true. We don't give a :daisy:, Indonesians are as Dutch to us as tulips and windmills, we don't even give it any thought. You will just have to take The Wizard's (who detests Wilders for whole different reasons) and my word for it I guess. It is just a rumor in the henhouse that he actually dyes his hair by the way, in pictures from his teenage years when he hided his ancestry by being a punker he is blond as well, as well as pink (so I have heard) by the way but this is Holland, maybe he pretended to be a flaming homosexual just to fit in.


edit: http://sheikyermami.com/2010/01/30/t...s-inquisition/

EDIT SO YOU UNDERSTAND Judge: “Mr Wilders, I can see that you are listening very intently, but what are you feeling right now? I cannot sense any emotion in you whatsoever.”

Dear appointedforlife judge we call it the leftist church for a reason, we are rationalists.

What are you feeling. Dear god these goddamn idiots. FEEL guilty mr Wilders, believing is not enough you must KNOW that the left is right. That is a given, it can't be negotiated, they have claim on TEH TRUTH and you will just have work with it.

NO.

That is what some would call guilty before charged, see it's a show not a trial.

The Judge addressed Wilders and asked him how he was feeling.
The Judge addressed Wilders and asked him how he was feeling.
The Judge addressed Wilders and asked him how he was feeling.
The Judge addressed Wilders and asked him how he was feeling.
The Judge addressed Wilders and asked him how he was feeling.
The Judge addressed Wilders and asked him how he was feeling.
The Judge addressed Wilders and asked him how he was feeling.
The Judge addressed Wilders and asked him how he was feeling.
The Judge addressed Wilders and asked him how he was feeling.
The Judge addressed Wilders and asked him how he was feeling.

etc.

not guilty, except for making a list of everyone involved in this farce

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Originally Posted by Subotan

What is that supposed to mean?

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Nothing, nothing at all. Come back when you are ready for debate.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Thank you for the racist perspective, and helping to prove my point. Wilders is about 3/4 ethnic Dutch, probably less than 1/4 Indonesian, raised in the rural Netherlands and yet still there are those who will cast aspersions on the validity of his identity.

Gentlemen, no wonder he dyes his hair.

Can keep repeating it but that doesn't make it any more true. We don't give a crap, Indonesians are as Dutch to us as tulips and windmills, we don't even give it any thought. You will just have to take The Wizard's (who detests Wilders for whole different reasons) and my word for it I guess. It is just a rumor in the henhouse that he actually dyes his hair by the way, in pictures from his teenage years when he hided his ancestry by being a punker he is blond as well, as well as pink (so I have heard) by the way but this is Holland, maybe he pretended to be a flaming homosexual just to fit in.

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Oh he's Dutch, I get it; but I would be worried if he completely ignored the fact that his Grandmother was from Indonesia, that would be unhealthy. I flat out don't agree with Loius, but I [i]do/[i] think there's something in what he says because the Dutch left has tried to use it as a stick to beat Wilders.

Also, I think the hair is dyed, in some photos I think you can see roots. On the other hand, he may have that peculiarly Germanic hair that goes from brown to blond depending on the amount of sunlight it is exposed to.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I flat out don't agree with Loius, but I [i]do/[i] think there's something in what he says because the Dutch left has tried to use it as a stick to beat Wilders.

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That is because the left will try anything to avoid any serious debate about very real issues, they will always play the person, never the ball. The left used it as a stick to beat Wilders because the left is clueless and desperate, they know they don't have the answers so they do what they do, DDR style.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Right, fine. The fact remains, however, that Wilders is the one shouting about it, and given his fundamentally "integrationalist" approach, his indonesian aspect needs to be considered. What Frag said was that he could see the (purely physical) Indonesian resemblence in Wilders, which reinforces my point that he doesn't exactly look Dutch.

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I disagree with the claim that he merely seeks "integration". He wants assimilation, just like most of these conservative right-wingers screaming about an "integration crisis" that simply isn't there. They want all those ugly brown people evil Muslims to get back in line and act like proper whites Dutchmen, just to make them feel right again.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Nothing, nothing at all. Come back when you are ready for debate.

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I say he looks slightly Indonesian. You try to me that I actually cannot see Indonesian characteristics. If you think that is debate, then it's no wonder that Wilders is making headway with his illogical rants.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

That is because the left will try anything to avoid any serious debate about very real issues, they will always play the person, never the ball. The left used it as a stick to beat Wilders because the left is clueless and desperate, they know they don't have the answers so they do what they do, DDR style.

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I think Furunculus' article put it best.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

The radical right is a term applied in the United States to sociopolitical movements and political factions and parties that develop in response to supposed threats against American values and interests. Such backlashes usually stem from rapid social or economic change that sparks a reaction among groups seeking to maintain or narrow lines of power and privilege.

They justify their actions by discounting the legitimacy of their opponents.

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Hmmm......

You can't read his illogical rants because you don't speak dutch.

You are welcome to tackle what he throws at you in English though.

Trust me though, they are pretty freaking illogical.

Sorry Frag, was too easy ~;)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...-geert-wilders

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[Islam] is not a religion, it's the ideology of a retarded culture

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"Islam is something we can't afford any more in the Netherlands. I want the fascist Qur'an banned. We need to stop the Islamisation of the Netherlands. That means no more mosques, no more Islamic schools, no more imams

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They are illogical and racist, regardless of the language that they are translated into.

Not racist, but definitely discriminatory. And crazy.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

Trust me though, they are pretty freaking illogical.

Sorry Frag, was too easy ~;)

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psssssst behind you

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Originally Posted by Subotan

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...-geert-wilders




They are illogical and racist, regardless of the language that they are translated into.

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Depends on what you think of Islam, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi7GdviIsjQ