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Well King Kurt, it appears you were right, though in the end option 1 didn't turn out to be as bad as you predicted.
Kraxis, this is a masterpiece. Very well done! I hope there will be many more Interactive Histories. ~:thumb:
I second this request. I searched on both the Org and the Com, but I couldn't find them.Quote:
Originally Posted by kommodus
I may be alittle off topic,but i would like to make a question here since its the only place where matters about WW2 are discussed.
Can anybody know why Germany did not attack Turkey ?Doing so it may have been easier to reach the natural resources(oil etc.) of Iraq and Kaspia?It would be easier because Turkey was no match to the army of the Reich.Attacking Russia was a huge blunder.
Thank you for your excellent Interactive History.
It has been great fun for me to participate in the decision making. :bow:
Victory!!:knight: I salute all off you armchair generals, who contributed to this decisive victory.~:cheers: And to Kraxis, Amazing work mate! I followed this Interactive history from the beginning to end and i cant do anything else but say thank you Kraxis,for this adventure in history.:bow:
Thanks all...~:)
I must admit that this has possibly been the most problematic and stressful of all the stories so far, by a great deal I think. Which is possibly why I had so many breaks in the latter choices.
In answer to what I think most people think, or at least will think after these few lines, yes, I have a plan for a new Interactive History. But it will be different in that it changes a few things in history. So in effect I doubt it could have happend, or even begun to happen. Lets call it Interactive Story instead. But mind you, I might never get it started as I lack the info needed.
The infantryline had quite a few tanks and armoured vehicles, but the formations themselves were either depleted or lacking in mobility, so they couldn't move on. Such formations were still formidable on the defensive, but would have suffered greatly if they had attacked, which could still have lead to a total defeat, more complete than the one Germany suffered in reality. So it was a number of the latest choices that lead to victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
Russian forces were notoriously bad when encircled, initially in the war they didn't even try to get out and were easily captured when supplies ran out (which they did quite fast due to the limited stockpiles they usually held at the front). In 42 they had learne the lesson well enough and now sought to escape encircling actions by any means, this in turn often resulted in routs, though the Germans couldn't always take advantage of that. This time The Russians saw the trouble arriving and tried to flee out rather than fight their way out. So when the final battle for the pocket was made they were in disarray and already low on supplies. Basically they had shot their chance at actually fighting their way out.
I'm sorry to say that they are likely lost for eternity. I wrote them more two years ago if not even longer, I can't remember now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
The basic outline is given in the Antiochus history.
Oh, and get Hoth drunk. He needs it.
Wow. It's over. "We" won.
Wierd.
WOOHOO!!!
VICTORY!!!
I can't believe this thread, and von Manstein's exploits, would finally come to such a glorious ending. The greatest military victory ever achieved in terms of scale... Thanks to von Manstein, all's quiet on the Eastern Front. ~;)
Even though the issue that the armchair generals of the .org were leading the Nazis to victory might disturb some, I recognize the sheer fictional scenario we are in; human lives, in the military campaigns, are pure numbers. Stalin hit the nail in the head for the generals, even though he's completely, utterly wrong in personal levels. Besides, who knows what Manstein will do? Rommel is defeated; I'd say that no one in the entire German High Command could compare to Manstein's shining glory after his successful Kursk campaign. He might as well returned a war hero and delivered a successful coup in which he took over the Third Reich and made peace with the allies...or he might not. Tomorrow's not ours to decide.
CONGRATULATIONS!!! ~:cheers:
Even though I, unfortunately, was out of the war for the later stages, I thank you all generals and observers alike, and especially Kraxis. You have been a wonderfully masterful narrator and coordinator of the Interactive History efforts. This campaign is a masterpiece: despite the fact that most people here would find the details of tactical movements by the World War 2 generals far from interesting compare to the set pieces tactical battles of Alexander the Great, you've managed to keep us all on our toes, wondering what the Russians still had up their sleeves, and how far could we pushed forward "today." Congratulations, again, and thank you.
~:) ~:) ~:) :bow: :bow: :bow: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:grouphug: ~:joker:
Signifer,Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA
why don't you start a new thread for this topic?
Great story, Kraxis! And very in the could-have-happened limits...
Well done Kraxis - this "what if" style of history is great - because it is what if!! everybody has their own idea of what might have happened, so there will always be debate, which is good for examining the heart of what happened as opposed the sketchy surface. I still believe my version of events are just as likely, but we could argue about that for ever.
One thought to ponder at the end of this story - what would have happened if the Eastern front had been "won" in some form by the Germans? Faced by with the whole of the German Army, you must assume D Day can not happen. Conversely, with Allied sea and air power, the Germans can't invade Britain. So what happens - I can't see the Allies coming to a peace with the Germans because if Germany dominates mainland Europe who can the allies trade with - their economies need the European markets. The rise of the USA as a superpower since WW2 shows the economic power Europe brings. So that begs the question of does the war continue into the late 40's as an air/ naval blockade war with nuclear weapons being used by the Allies as an alternative to invasion - it was what they did to Japan, after all - that seems a frightening scenario - fortunately it is precisely that - just a scenario.
I look forward to the next interactive history and hope to be part from the begining~:cheers:
Kurt,
Let us go on dreaming for a while. What if Germany had won in the East. Occupied Belarus and Ukraine? That would have released a lot of very experienced divisions, but it would also have created a big industrial potential.
So the Germans could have used their armies to prevent immidiate landings of the remaining allies. In 1943 the US airpower was not so strong, but strongly coming up. Concentrating the efforts on air defense the Germans would have stopped the bombings, I believe. I think most of the fighter squadrons fought in the east.
The US would have introduced the long range fighter escorts, just like they did. The Germans would have introduced the Me262 in big numbers to stop them. And they could have shipped all sensitive industry in the east.
Germany also would have increased the efforts in building the new Walter sub. This would have been a new chellange for the allies.
But in the end, there would have been nuking! ~:confused:
So scenario 2. Germany proclaims that the crusade against communism is over. It installs pseudo independant satelites all around Germany (Poland, Belarus, Baltic States, CSR, Croatia, Serbia, France, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Benelux ...). There is a peace conference. The nations agree on a trade unit and a political pact to prevent communism for all times. How would the US and GB have reacted then?
Franconicus
This one could run and run!
Your points about a "technology war" - Me 262, new U Boats etc - are well made. I still think that the allies would have won such a war - while Germany had an excellent collection of scientists, you always felt that the bureaucracy of the 3rd Reich coupled with the interference of Hitler would have held it back. Also moving the industry to the east might have protected it, but surely the target of nuclear weapons would have been the German people. The concept of Bomber Harris attacking Germany at night with nuclear weapons is horrifying. In the scenario we have just done,I wouldn't think the technology drive would have got going much before the end of 1944 - the men would help, but you need to set up infrastructure etc and that still would have to be done in occupied territory with all the security implications.
As for scenario 2, very difficult to tell - I think peace with Hitler still in control would be very unlikely - ignoring the feelings about what he had done, how could you trust him? - he had invaded most of europe, often attacking countries he was nominaly at peace with, so you would feel that peace was only possible once he had gone - would that have happened when it appeared that Germany was winning? The 1 attempt to get rid of him was when things looked black - and that failed.
The other untouched area is what about Japan? With no D Day do the Allies concentrate on knocking out Japan then turn their forces - particuarly the air and naval forces - on Germany? You could see a scenario with japan neutered by blockade and air raids being left to wither on the vine and it is Frankfurt and Munich that replace Hirosima and Nagasaki.
The trouble with "what if" history is there are too many "what ifs"!!! there is enough controversy over actual history, so this sort makes even more!! - still, nothing better than a good debate - especially as the result doesn't matter.~:cheers:
Kraxis, there is still one question open. What did we do wrong, or at least what would you have done in a different way?
Alrighty... rest up, fuel up, and gear up.
Get ready to launch an overwhelming offensive in Italy and Sicily to kick the allies out. Then relaunch an offensive into the Caucasus region in Russia to get at the oil fields.
I think the next best move would be to call out Hitler to the front to witness this great victory. Have a cup of tea or coffee in your personal quarters with him.grab your side arm,and put a bullet in his head.
And then maybe end this bloody war.~;)
Ohhh there were several mistakes, but unlike the more tactical decisions of Antiochus' Dilemma they could be corrected by the correct or neutral decisions after them, which was what happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
One point where it nearly went completely wrong was when the initial attack was made. I cost a lot of tanks initially, limiting the offensive in its first days. Had the wrong decision been taken after that it is not unlikely that it could have ended right there.
A point about nuking Germany.
I don't think so. Nukes were weapons of threat since so few were available for years to come. Had Germany with Hitler in control been nuked it would have responded with a massive nervegas strike on London, Birmingham and every other large city in the hands of the Allies that could have been reached. The Allies knew this, and I'm sure they wouldn't have risked it. Japan got the bombs because she couldn't respond with anything but token attacks (at best a few subs could have gassed a few villages), so in that case it was a safe approach for the Allies.
Even 'Bomber' Harris wasn't that cynical, or even Curtis LeMay for that matter. They were not about to risk allies or own citizens.
A strong Germany nuked would also have screamed for revenge rather than give up, a weak Germany might have caved in and deposed Hitler and his cronies.
Kraxis I am not so sure about the nuking. The attack of Hamburg was not so different. They tried to destroy the whole city and kill as many civilists as possible. And they were damned successful. Germans did not react with chemicals. So why not use nukes if you have them?
kagemusha
Do you think that a German officer could have / should have / must have killed his Führer?
If yes, he should have done before, not after a successful battle!
Kraxis
Once more your interactive history is an excellent piece of work. And what is more - it is big fun to follow it. You really have the feeling that you are doing history. And learn a lot. Do you intent to make money out of it? Think about it. There will be many willing to buy this game!
posted by Franconicus:
kagemusha
Do you think that a German officer could have / should have / must have killed his Führer?
If yes, he should have done before, not after a successful battle!
The few assasination plans against Hitler,were conducted by the German Officers.The most high ranking officer who was suspected of trying to kill Hitler was Rommel,and he died becouse of that.Won Mannstein was not a nazi.He is one of the most highly respected German General war Marshalls.And i believe he didnt like what was happening in The Reich.After such a victory he would have such a popularity among german people and army,that i think he could have overthrown Hitler.The same reason is why the conspirators wanted Rommel to be a part of their plan,was becouse he was so popular,that if he had overthrown Hitler people could have accepted it.Sadly the plan went wrong like we all know it.
Officer should be officer,not a dog.:bow:
It was a psycological barrier. Germany didn't respond with gas as officially the allies were still 'only' bombing the industry, a nuke can't be disguised as such. Besides, a gas attack on Britain would mean a gas attack in the other direction too. But if faced with a one bomb strike such as a nuke Germany would in terms of power have no option but to strike back with what she had... in this case nervegas and perhaps mustardgas (if the nervegas was expended), and I believe Germany was quite advanced in bloodgasses as well (quite possibly the nastiest of them all).Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
A nuke outside Wilhelmshaven would pehaps have made the Germans want peace, while a direct strike would urge them on instead. Remember that Japan was already on her knees with no possible chance of retaliation. If Germany was still strong and could strike back she would. I have no doubt. And in Hitler's mind the western allies were civilized, so if they so blatantly broke that image, he would stop at nothing to get revenge. Remember that he already did get his revenge for the bombing with the V1 and V2. The proportions were far from the same but he felt that he was striking back. A nuke would up the stakes a whole lot and Hitler would look for possibilities to hit back with equal power... And gas would be the answer.
You know, I have actually thought about it, but honestly I can't find the venue for it. Would you guys have paid to participate? No. So an internet version is out of the question, besides I would at best get something like 50$ from a story like this one. Far from the worth it is in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Bookform you say? Again not much of an answer. It would be extremely big (all choices and results must be included), and it would smell far away of those fantasy go-to books. I doubt it would survive...
Books are no good idea. Computer programs are ideal media for this kind of choice driven stories. I think you have two options:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
1. An internet site were people get access with a paid code. Then they can play. You could even take money for every single story. If it works for porn why not for history ~D
2. Or you sell it on CD ROMs. Same setup. Then however you need somekind of distribution. Guess someone in the org can help.
There were also civilists trying to kill A.H.. However, they failed and he survived. ~:mecry: Confirmed him that he was the chosen one.Quote:
Originally Posted by kagemusha
Of course military was the only org to start a putsch.
If memory serves well then Manstein said after the war that he did not do anything against Hitler because this would have resulted in a civil war. I think the end of WW1 and the myth that Germany lost just because of the riots stopped many military persons from acting against Hitler.Quote:
Originally Posted by kagemusha
The question is why should anybody follow a Manstein putsch after an outstanding military success. The Russians are defeated. Fine! Hitler's concept works. Why worry about the west? And the holocaust? You can hardly believe it today!
No, a putsch was only possible when Germany faced desaster. Manstein needed a victory after the putsch.
But this is a very interesting topic. Maybe we should start another interactive for a Manstein putsch?
Good idea Franc!~:) Kraxis how would you like about thatkind of subject?:jumping:
kagemusha,
I already received a license from Kraxis. So maybe I'll do it!
Go ahead i think it would be very intresting.~:)
Yup... It is good to outsource... Nice income... $$$~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Mannstein loathed Himmler and Goering, and made fun of Hitler where it was safe, he taught his dog to sault on the command "Heil Hitler," but he was no Yorck. The only Marshal willing to resist Hitler was Kluge, but he lacked the prestige and power to stand against Hitler. Only Mannstein had the clout. Mannstein, when asked by a young aide planted by Tresckow, asked Mannstein who should save German in the event of defeat. Mannstein's reply was 'certainly not me.'Quote:
The few assasination plans against Hitler,were conducted by the German Officers.The most high ranking officer who was suspected of trying to kill Hitler was Rommel,and he died becouse of that.Won Mannstein was not a nazi.He is one of the most highly respected German General war Marshalls.And i believe he didnt like what was happening in The Reich.After such a victory he would have such a popularity among german people and army,that i think he could have overthrown Hitler.The same reason is why the conspirators wanted Rommel to be a part of their plan,was becouse he was so popular,that if he had overthrown Hitler people could have accepted it.Sadly the plan went wrong like we all know it.
Officer should be officer,not a dog.
After reading these pages over and over there is only one question left: Kraxis, on which side did you fight?
Mine...~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
But honestly what did you mean by that?
Well it is clear that you do not know this by reading books. Guess you have been there, maybe even in a general's staff. So- on which side did you fight?
Yes, I'm 112 years old now. I was a young colonel on Manstein's staff.~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
You can go a long way with imagination and a few good books as well can years of infohunting in general.