I have this bridge in Medemblik I could sell you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
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I have this bridge in Medemblik I could sell you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
When you've got some clown throwing Molotov cocktails at people and setting things on fire, the answer is simple: put a round through his head and any others that don't seem to "get it." Re-establish security. Protest is one thing, violent and dangerous attacks is another. This isn't protest, it is open revolt.
Great idea , there was a nice little example of that sort of attitude just over 30 years ago . Teach them a lesson they will never forget eh ?
I wonder how many billions in wasted money and how many thousands of wasted lives that cost .
Oh and they are still going through the courts 33 years later to see who made the balls up in taking that action .
The trouble with murdering people because "they don't seem to get it" is that a hell of a lot more people get exactly the opposite idea that you want them to get .
[B][LOL, the French treat everyone like shit. It does not give these people the right to riot. Get your head out of your little leftist fantasy world./B]
Whereas if it was Americans who were pissed at the governmnet and the police they wouldn't be burning things they would be shooting them , as that is their right with their amended constipation .
Well, I guess you don't really care about how life's going into my 15k inhabitants city, but let me tell you no policeman ever arrested someone for being black or arab. My former lycée is opened to all ethinicities. There are even some special classes for people who are failing the common studies.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
There's no low standard insalubrious HLM, no neo-nazi cops arresting people depending on their skin color. There's a poor neighborood, filled white whites, and a few arabs and black families. There's an important Cambodian community which causes absolutely no problem. Why are the Cambodians good and respectful citizens, while 70% of the trouble are caused by the arab community ? They aren't white, they came after a colonial war in which France burnt their country, bombed innocents, they got low paid jobs,they were sent in 3rd zone cities, but they're actually well integrated, well educated...
I seriously think we've done our best to integrate anyone into our society, yet these girls, although they looked integrated and enlightened, hate us, claim their god will burn us. What can we do here ?
There are sure a lot of issues. But understand me. I'm 19 years old. I don't feel I'm responsible for colonisation, for the Algerian war, for the torture. I didn't vote for Mitterand. I did not ask our previous Presidents to allow massive immigration. I did not ask them to put all the migrants into ghetto-cities. I did not ask them to set up a crappy integration system.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Now, we have a group of people rioting, claiming they can't find jobs, can't do that, can't do this, are too poors to do that. That's not surprising, knowing the social and economical gap existing between low and upper classes in France. Yet, oddly, although there's a crapload of people who have good reasons to riot, the rioters are actually people who are between 12 and 22 year olds, who did not fight during the Algerian War, who got access to a decent education system, who never had to find a job, who barely speak french and who don't give a f*ck about this country. And what are they doing ? Burning other poors' cars or schools, randomly molesting people in the street.
I *admit* a few people might actually have rioted because they are unemployed, or because they felt insulted by Sarkozy's speech. I *admit* life in Clichy-sous-Bois must be a real pain.
But what the hell, what are 14 year old scums doing here ? What are 18 year old wealthy b*tches doing here ? What are people claiming we insulted their prophet doing here ? People feel insulted when someone call them scums, and guess what, they prove they are scums by acting as such.
Your reasoning here is :Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
I don't like racist rioters = I'm a fascist ?
I don't like people who burn cars, schools and eventually, people = I'm a racist ?
I don't like people who spit on the few things I actually respect in my country = I'm a nationalist right-winger nutjob ?
I can't seriously understand you. A tiny minority of them *may* have reasons to riots, so we just wait until they calm down ? We send them flowers ? We politely ask them not to riot anymore, cause that's not really nice of them ? We tell the people whose cars and homes are getting toasted that the riot is legitimate and that they should just go to hell and forget about their home and the car they bought after hours and hours of hard work ?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
As for the Islamic nonsense, I had the same opinion, until I heard what I heard today. If girls dressed like the average 18 year old girl can say "My God will burn you", there's a serious problem IMO.
For years, I've been an anti-racist guy. 3 years ago, a friend a I worked voluntarily for SOS-Racisme. But now, I'm tired that each time I or a friend get molested, the agressor is an arab. I'm tired that each time I hear about drug dealing, the dealer is an arab. I'm tired by the way 12 year olds arab scums show absolutely no respect for anything, will call a girl 'bitch' because she's good looking, will make fun or retard people because they think they're smarter. I'm tired by the tone they use to sound more gang-ish, the way they'll reply "C'est bon !" each time they're told something they don't like. I'm tired by the way they'll all sit at the back of the bus and make fun of everyone who don't look gang-ish.
Right now, I'm tired by the fact I'm surprised each time I meet an arab who doesn't look like some rap singer, who speak french correctly or who bother about his studies.
And how many times has this sort of thing, at this intensity, has happened in the US recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
How you could twist this into a slam on the United States just shows your moronic view of the world and your utter hatred for my country. How about commenting on the issue the thread addresses instead of spreading your usual excrement.
It isn't murder. It is quelling a revolt. When they are committing a violent felony, their life is in danger. It is their own illegal act putting them in the position. Only a complete boob would call that murder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Well, there you go.:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
I'm rather convinced that the riots in France were being organized for some time.
The Turkish interviewer was told that it was not a Muslim riot in France as well. The guy wanted to be a French and not be discriminated in anyway. I want job was the other reason I heard.
Every country has such densities, however it blew up in France. I really think that this was an organized one. If not, these guys should have been discriminated in a Medieval Heretic way that such a riot took place. However I believe, our democracy tutors did treat them well..
It isn't murder. It is quelling a revolt.
Explain this bit then
put a round through his head and any others that don't seem to "get it."
Don't seem to get it ....get what , the fact that the police will kill you to teach people a lesson . Hey the French did that in the past , as did the British and countless other countries , it doesn't work .
In fact it turns out to be completely counterproductive .
Edit because some people just are not even worth a response
“LOL, the French treat everyone like shit.”
That is probably because France is the most racist state in the world that the biggest Muslim population in Europe is in France, and the biggest Jewish community in Europe lives in France. They like to be excluded, marginalised and ostracised.~:)
Unfortunately, the answer is a little bit more complicated… The riot started because a social economical problems.
BUT, I don’t think these rioters know what real poverty is. They burn the schools they didn’t intend to go. They blame others for their own incapacity to be creative and to work hard to escape from where they belong. They do not respect their parents, their faith or others social barriers.
I come from a low level of the French society. My ancestors were soldiers (by the way, most of my comrades in arm and NCO were from immigration Portuguese, Algerians, Moroccans, Austrians etc), farmers or workers.
My Grand-father was a Unionist when the police shoot for real on the crowd in 1933-1936. And he was not black or Arabs (by the way, the Chinese and Vietnamese aren’t in the riots, and they are for the immigration too). The police always work for the power… In 1954, the strikes were resolved by machine guns shooting against Renault workers… so give a break with this… It is not in France that people disappeared and the political opponents finished and are tortured in jail but in Algeria, Tunisia, Congo, etc. It is not in France that you are jailed if you eat during the Ramadan but in Algeria.~D
I was aware when I was 16 of the social “determism” ~:confused: (not an English word, but I can’t find the good one) and I found my way. I finished my baccalaureate, joined the army (5 years) then went back to university for 8 years. I am the only one of the 6 children to do it, but I did it. Yes, I had to work in night shift and week-end and during holidays. Yes, it was hard, but you know what you have to do if you want to succeed to escape from factories and unemployment.
As said by Meneldil, most of the pseudo revolutionaries have nice clothes and probably have Ipod and others luxuries…~D
But, as I said, the French have enough of this government which give to the rich, which ignored the populace, which cut all social expenses and want the “petits gens” poorer.
And these people are French. Give them that. The ancestors fought for that, came in France to work and did it. Some gave their lives for France. So, immigration isn’t the problem. The problem is the alienation of the workers (and most of their parents are or were workers) and the real frustration born from this situation. I know it, I had it. I remember what it is when you live in a perpetual humiliation.
Now, some “petite bourgeoises” want to be seen as revolutionaries… In 2 weeks, they will come back in a normal behaviour and will smoke, drink alcohol, were short skirts, kiss their boyfriends in the street and won’t wear the hidjab, protected from the so-called murder of honour or ritual mutilations by the police and the French laws they spat on yesterday…~:cheers:
And the car’s insurance will rise… Again~:)
LOL and some people don't have the stones to stand by what they say...:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Clearly the 18 year old girls just need sex.~:joker:
I joke because I haven’t a clue how to help. Thanks Meneldil for sharing your experiences I feel I have a better understanding of the situation because you have taken the time to share. :bow: I wish I could offer some genuine advice.
If you revolt against the existing authority, you should expect that the existing authority will seek to retain control and that they may use violent means to do so. Phrasing it as "a round in the head" may be a touch crass, but is graphically accurate. Heavens, the Chi-comms would even charge the deceases rioter's family for the bullet used. ~:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Historically speaking, you are also incorrect. Most revolts have been quelled by violence and violence can often end practical opposition. Very few revolts have succeeded compared to the number attempted. Napoleon's "whiff of grape," A British Empire governor "reading the Riot Act," etc. all clearly underline the efficacy of the violent response. :knight:
Feel free to argue that such government crackdowns cannot address the antecedent causes of a riot/rebellion, or even that governmental violence against its own citizens is inherently immoral, but please try not to fly in the face of facts. :trytofly:
Because there are far fewer of them, the majority were originally Catholic anti-Communists who 'knew' their place in French society and they were met with far less hostility than immigrants from the Maghreb. Even so, although the 13e is still nice, the 11me seems to have its own problems since the advent of many Chinese...Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Anyway, I understand that you are upset and I do not want to belittle that sentiment, but the spitting has been mutual for a long time. You may not have witnessed it in your neighbourhood, but I have seen too many instances of (both young and old) Arabs being abused by police, shop-owners, etcetera. I am not in the business of justifying riots or murder, but this is not exactly a surprise, is it. It has been predicted for all of twenty five years. If you lump so many social and economic problems together in drab housing estates with virtual fences around them and allow criminals to take over the street, you should not be surprised and cry: 'Oh look, criminals are taking over!"
Oh yes! ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Guess who else are making money again? ~;)Quote:
And the car’s insurance will rise… Again~:)
They were met with far less hostility than immigrants from the Maghreb”: That is right, and also they come as victims of an invasion, not after having rage a war to become independent then, 5 years after, come to the Oppressor to find a job. So, the feeling toward both communities is rather different.~D
If you lump so many social and economic problems together in drab housing estates with virtual fences around them and allow criminals to take over the street, you should not be surprised and cry: 'Oh look, criminals are taking over!" Completely agree!!! But it isn’t specific to the immigration… The poor French are in these Ghettos and are denied of equal opportunities… A friend of mine, lawyer now, was the only workers’ family origin in his university who succeeded. They were 5 at the start (more than 500 candidates)…~:)
And yes, the laws of the Republic should apply to all, in protection as in repression. But Chirac is still not in jail…~D
A British Empire governor "reading the Riot Act," etc. all clearly underline the efficacy of the violent response.
Ever heard of Amritsar ? Did it produce the "necessary moral and widespread effect" (nice line that one isn't it) that was intended to stop the protests and riots or did it mark the beginning of the end of the established rule ?
Historically speaking, you are also incorrect.~D ~D ~D
but please try not to fly in the face of facts.
Yeah right, facts speak for themselves Seamus .
Would you like a pile of other examples ? There are plenty to choose from .
Oh, écoutes.. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
But back to my question: who else is making money?
Mr Kärchner. Ouais!
How far would you go? 1992?Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Define intensity? is that damage caused? people dead?
Because on many criteria, beside making good picture and being a good example of some real, actual problems we face (but that noone cares about here), it's rather low intensity.
When you count burnt cars for a "riot", it's actually a good news...
Louis,
You're living in the past, Adrian. Did you fail to notice the extreme reluctancy to use force against the rioters? Do you not see that it is that racaille shooting at the police, and not the other way round? That it took two weeks before a curfew was imposed?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
All that to prevent further escalation. Rightly so, I guess. But you now what? By now my intrinsic French law and order obsessed fascist side is gaining the upper hand. The party is over.
Like a general, you're fighting the previous war. The barbarians are within our gates indeed. But - for once - it's not the dormant French authoritarian undercurrent.Quote:
The barbarians are already within the European gates. They have been there all along and they are awaiting their next chance.
Yes, well note my sig <-Quote:
I know all the ins and outs, man, of Paris.
You're no doubt aware then that Saint Denis harbours the largest Muslim community of France. Having shared a house with some Jews and even a gay, I know who the fascists will be next time. I respect Muslims, but I'm no fool. This time, it's their youth running around in brownshirts, with identical haircuts, frustrated and angry and looking for scapegoats to take the frustration over their miserable little lives out on.
I hear is so bad that Bush is going to send in the Marines. A fireteam leaves for France tommorow. That should put an end to it.~D
The US marines! At last! :jumping:
Why does it always take you guys so long to come bail us out?
*hurries to Normandy to see the show*
No. But I did notice that Sarkozy had not enough police personnel to deal with the fall-out of further escalation. In that case he would have been forced to leave the initiative to De Villepin, backed by Chirac and the army, and this would have made him look like a failure. And there are, after all, presidential elections ahead... These guys were so busy politicking that they missed out on their own riots for seven days and only woke up when their own cars and homes inside the Peripheral Boulevard came under threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat
For a moment, I thought you were going to say 'take power'. Anyway, Le Pen has been awfully silent, hasn't he?Quote:
This time, it's their youth running around in brownshirts, with identical haircuts, frustrated and angry and looking for scapegoats to take the frustration over their miserable little lives out on.
I'm assuming you are referring to the Rodney King riot in LA. Provides a very marked contrast to France's pathetic response to this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
1. Guard was called up on Day 2, arrived Day 3.
2. The riot was quelled, essentially over by Day 5 which was quiet except for one shooting by Guardsmen.
3. Individuals prevented the spread of the rioting and protected their own property with personal firearms.
4. There was very little spread of the rioting to other cities.
5. We didn't agonize over the civil rights of rioters. We dealt with the riots, then we dealt with the issue that had prompted them.
The sad thing is that the King rioting was poorly directed because it merely destroyed the neighborhoods of those who had a valid beef. Had they marched on the police station and burned it down/etc. then it would have been an appropriate "tit for tat" response and going right to the heart of the problem. Instead it was general wanton destruction.
The riots also happened after justice had "run its course" and failed miserably. It wasn't a quick reaction to an incident, but a long building response to an incident.
Stronger the central government, stronger the response, and stronger the repression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Weaker the central government, later response, tough the response could be strong too.
Yes but America is a highly federalized state, France as centralist as they come. Let's swap 'stronger' for 'competent'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
If only it were that simple. The police and firefighters were nowhere to be seen for two days. Two days of open gun battles left over 50 people dead and over a 1000 buildings burning. And this in only one part of only one town. The planned redevelopment of the area had to fold within five years due to lack of funds. And by the way, you forgot to mention the Harlins shooting which explains the black-Korean confrontation in the midst of the Rodney King riots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Wow, the few, the proud, the Marines! The best soldiers in the world! ~:thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Oh, they can all forget about the presidency. Bunch of incompetent fools.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
No, they're not going to take power. Not power as in taking over the government. But they do have the power to decide who goes where, where you can walk late at night, to make Jews, gays and women stay out of many public spaces, the power to make a bus full of passengers shut up.Quote:
For a moment, I thought you were going to say 'take power'.
Oh, and to decide who is allowed to make what kind of movie in the Netherlands as well...
The FN is having a ball. They're sitting back quietly, feet on the table, going like this:Quote:
Anyway, Le Pen has been awfully silent, hasn't he?
~:rolleyes:
God forbid this racaille seizes power or it will be my turn to set a few cars ablaze.
And yet it was contained far quicker than in France. More severe form of rioting, and contained more quickly. Tells you something about the way Americans do things compared to the French in this case doesn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
The poor redevelopment actually sent the right message: Don't tear up your own neighborhood and expect someone else to fix it.
What message has France sent? "Please don't hurt us. We don't know what to do." ~:rolleyes: That invites more trouble and France can probably expect wider adoption of the same tactic in the future. We'll see how it works out for France long term. I could take a lot of gratuitous cheap shots at France here, but that is not why I'm posting. I'm posting because weakness in the face of aggression is foolhardy.
And so what about the Harlins shooting? Doesn't really matter much to the scheme of things other than increasing the intensity. I didn't forget it, it just doesn't add anything to the point.
It had to be, because it grew far worse than in France due to LA police incompetence. The Chief of Police couldn't be bothered, he was too busy attending political fundraisers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Reminds me of Sarkozy, sort of. ~;p