Imperial Diet V

Duke Arnold,

I like how you laid out the problem. There is more to it however. With regards to nobles giving permission, we have a fairly new situation where some of us come of age in Outremer. Like myself. I feel no particular attachment to home or my house. What about us? We are the bastard children of the Crusades that our fathers went on. We were raised by the King and when we come back to the Diet, we are rabble rousers and not used to the authority and decorum in Europe. Jens Hummel, Wolfgang Hummel, Dieter Bresch, and myself are all examples of nobles who grew up in a different world than the rest of you. None of us seem to feel any sort of special affinity for our Dukes. Yet, Outremer only exists because the Duchies pool their money together and send it off to us where we can raise armies and build structures.

See where there is starting to be conflict? The nobles no longer all come from the Reich proper. Please forgive me, but let me diverge into a history lesson. The first and second Crusades were led by men with strong personalities that passionately believed in the cause. Also, there were few nobles to stop them so the legislation legalizing all of this went through. Left behind were their children and adopted sons who grew up here in Germany and eventually rose in rank. All four Dukes are men of this sort. Men who have never been to Outremer and have had to deal with the manpower shortage that the Crusaders created. Naturally, all four Dukes give priority to their homelands that they have had to defend shorthanded for years and who can blame them.

In the meantime, the Crusaders for the most part grew old out there and passed on. But in doing so, they created a very different kind of territory. It is a territory that is not like the Duchies, yet only survives because of the Duchies. We need to find some way to bind the Duchies to Outremer closer together like we need to find some way to bind the children of the Crusaders to the children of those who stayed behind to defend the homeland closer together.

I like where you are going with regards to future legislation Duke Arnold. But you can see my concern about the statement that nobles need to get permission from their Dukes before coming to Outremer. We need to go deeper than that. The Crusaders were great men with a great mission but I do not think they gave careful thought as to what would become of the Reich or their project. Outremer as it is in law can not stand. It needs to be remade into a way that makes the Duchies feel that they are included. I am tired of all of the animosity between the King and the Dukes and the Counts and the Crusader Counts. We're all German. I do not know yet what to do about it because I need to know what all of the Duchies want. If even one Duchy is hesitant of the mission, then we need to rethink the whole thing. Because I do not believe it is fair to force others to sacrifice for something they do not see the benefit of.

Last message of Ansehelm von Kastillien

For !@#$&% sake Jan, do you know why you are so irritating? I do.
Some time ago you send me a message, to which I answered that I didn't want to send anymore men to the Outremer as it's now.
In an answer you asked for Fritz to be send.

How !@#$&% stupid are you? Has the alcohol gone up your brain already?
A man who drinks should not lead. You should not lead, you are not only a danger to yourself, but to the entire Reich.


You say that a Duke cannot stop men going to the Outremer, shall we bet on that?

And don't you even bother to reply, it's not like I even make the time to send a message back to you.

This seems like a perfect time to ask you, Duke Ansehelm, what do you think of the Outremer mission? You certainly have voiced concerns. What do you want to do about it? Do you think the sacrifices that Franconia has made are worth it?

Matthias seems a bit alarmed about the rancor in the Diet.

In the past, a Duke has never forbidden one of his subjects from going to Outremer. In fact it was often encouraged, either because the Duke was a religious man or he wanted a supporter to have a little more influence due to being a Crusader Count. With the loss of that influence, now there is only piety to rely upon.

While a Duke can certainly use his power and influence to pressure a vassal to stay in Europe, I do not think he can force him to. There is nothing in the Charter that allows this. Usually the promise of a County or a threat of a loss of land or title would be enough. The choice has always been left to the individual. I went east when King Salier asked for a Bavarian to rule Adana. It was my choice, I was neither ordered to go or forbidden from doing so.

It is unfortunate that Duke Ansehelm has become hostile to Outremer, or at least it's King, as Franconia was a driving force in the creation of the Kingdom. Dietrich von Saxony, the first modern Duke of Franconia, was one of the first Crusaders, who marched the length of Europe and Asia Minor to reach the Holy Land, and he crushed a Jihad army along the way. Jonas von Mahren, who so recently left us, another Franconian, accompanied him as well. Fredericus von Hamburg stormed the walls of Damascus, bringing the Second Crusade to completion. It is a rich history, and one, I hope, that is not finished.

Times change, but I still feel the system established by Kaiser Henry can work. Most of us do not wish to abandon the Holy Land, and most of us do not wish a Fifth House formed, so what alternative is there? With the current system in place, we have weathered three Mongol invasions, an Egyptian seizure of Jerusalem and hostile neighbors, and the Kingdom thrives as well as the Duchies. I see no need to change the status quo.

King Jan,

I have one simply answer to your issue.

EVERY NOBLE IN this Reich, even those born directly in Outremer, belong by birth to one of the four Houses. There is no escaping the Families and Lineage of this ancestral tradition.

Zirn's children will be born into the House of Austria, no matter that their Father has lived decades in Outremer and that his son and daughter may never physically see Austria in their life time.

They are still Austrian.

The scribes keep note of all the Noble Births in this Realm, and which houses they belong to.

This is an integral part of the Reich and will never change.

The only TWO people who are asked to put this aside is the Kaiser and the King of Outremer.

Jan nods at the wisdom in Matthias's words. He then turns to address Duke Arnold.

Duke Arnold,

You are correct that nobles are born into a house and that can not be changed unless by the two exceptions you listed. But, what binds the noble to that house? Land, titles, family, friends, a purpose are all reasons to be loyal to your house. But, what if those things are not enough? I point to a rule in the Charter that is at the heart of the Outremer matter:

Quote:

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4.8 Dukes are expected to guide their families for the good for their Duchies. Members of a house do not have to follow their Dukes in terms of politics. However, the Duke can make players a Count by giving them a settlement (granting them +1 influence). Only the Duke of your House (not another Duke) can make you a Count. Houses will not be the only division in the Diet - chivalry, piety, strategy and other factors may also divide players. (OOC: I struck out the OOC part of the rule)

---

There is no law requiring us to actually listen to our Dukes. Yes, we can lose our land and become political lepers, but that is about it. In an extreme case, the Chancellor can decide to assign us a settlement for the next twenty years or wander the forests building watch towers. But we do not have to listen. And it is this rule in the charter that gives us the political space in Outremer to function. Once in Outremer, as long as you have the King's support, you can effectively leave your house like I did as Crusader Count. I think that is the real threat to the Duke's power and possibly behind some of the animosity they feel. Now, I do not want to eliminate rule 4.8 for it does show that we all have an element of free will. (OOC: I believe changing this rule would kill the game and make it very un-fun.)

But we need to find some way to reconcile this rule with the interests of the Dukes. Duke Ansehelm is upset that Franconians did not vote the way he wanted. But there is no rule stating that they had to vote the way he wanted. It is up to him to provide the "carrot and the stick" to influence behavior. My personal example of going rogue may have provided a precedent where Counts thought they could go their own way. But, the political space to go your own way has always been there because it is enshrined in rule 4.8.

This rule allows Outremer to function as a seperate political entity. But, Outremer can only survive with money and men from the Duchies. We need to find a way to make sure that Outremer and the Duchies can co-exist or the Outremer project is surely doomed.

I am afraid I leave us only with more questions for now but hopefully this can provoke more productive discussion.

I can see Jan's point here. There is a difference in the new generation, that is certain. They have never set foot on our lovely mountains, or waded through the rich fields, plucking wheat at harvest time. They do not know the thrill of sailing through waves in the Nordsee, nor have they traveled from Hamburg to Rome and seen the huge expanse of the Reich.

However, I can also see Arnold's point. The Reich exists because of the strength of its families. Without them, Outremer is nothing. Though nobles may be born there, the strength of our troops comes from the homeland, and without a doubt the gold needed to maintain the place comes from our four houses. And without strong, united houses, the Reich ceases to exist.

I have not participated in the debate thus far, seeing how contentious it has been. However, perhaps once the Kaiser returns we can begin this discussion anew, without rancor. Without his word and influence, I feel that we will only run in circles.

That is, if the Kaiser returns from his vacation amongst the infidels...

Helmut Von Hamburg enters the diet.

" I think that the issues with Outremer should be handled decisively. I am tired of people beating around the bushes. So here it is. I think we should get rid of the whole bloody outremer! Im sure that with my brother now as king of it, he will loose it anyway, but i say that lets save the lives of our countrymen and let the heathens fight each other over it. Its useless bit of desert that should be given back to the goat herders that live in there. Also we should bring papacy back to Europe by giving this very city to Holy father,who´s city this is. The Reich should be the leader of Europe. Europe,not some foreign far away lands that are completely useless.From Bosphorus to Gibraltar and from English channel to River Neva. Europe."

Helmut sits down with a challenging expression on his face.

Arnold

Yet again I'm not going to get into a long drawn out $^#@$#ing debate.

Technically you are correct King Jan.

However, what is not written and what should NOT have to be written are two things, fealty and blood!!

Standing now, pacing the floor the Duke is full of intensity and energy. The very strength of will can be heard in each word and downward chopping motion of his points by his black mailed hand.

Any and every noble of Austria, and any other House for that matter, is that way by BLOOD or by FORMAL adoption involving swearing allegiance to his Duke.

I'm not going to explain this or get involved in it any further.

...you might need some type of wording but I don't.

Arnold now begins to addess the rest of the Chamber, pacing back and forth, his voice cutting through the space with vigour and steel.

This is a process that is centuries old and will never require codification on some piece of paper in some scribes library for it to be real.

If any NOBLE of Austria wishes to TEST your concept practically Jan, the they are more than welcome to try...

If anyone wants to FEEL my power as a Duke then I'm more than willing to show it.

This is not about rules and words, it about our Empire and how it is run...and that is NEVER going to be written down word for word. What more critical is it doesn't have to be.

If anyone wishes to rebel against their Duke, or attempt to go against the Feudal traditions this Empire is built on then I DARE anyone...to go...%T$#$%ing...right...ahead.

AM I CLEAR HEAR!!?

DO WE NEED TO LEARN FEALTY, BLOOD and what that means to this REICH NOW?!!??

And before there is another %%@^#ing round of debate...I'd like everyone to know, I AM VERY CLEAR on what all this means and I'd suggest EVERYONE else tries to understand this, rather than trying to NOT UNDERSTAND.

Count Helmut,

While you are my brother, you are but a Count. I will hope that in the future, your demeanor towards one of your betters is more respectful. I will not "lose" anything. But I do welcome your thoughts and opinion on the matter. If more men believe as Helmut does, we need to re-think this project very carefully. Helmut's opinion is a perfect example of what I fear is a growing trend among the electorate.

Duke Arnold,

What you speak of is only possible because of your iron will as Duke. There is not law to back up what you are saying. You only achieve it by your own sheer will and determination. Other Dukes might not have your will therefore they need the Charter to backstop them. The Charter on this matter is quite clear.

Helmut stands up.

"Oh my little brother is roaring now! Should i bow down to the mighty King of Outremer? Mere count you say. I say you are mere rebel, with your lack of loyalty to your Duke.Duke of Franconia,who is your overlord whether you were King of Outremer or King of the Moon. You hold no authority over me,so you should speak to me like to your equal, unless you wish to challence me to duel, which outcome would be easy to predict from years of memories,little brother."

Helmut sits down laughing.

Count Helmut,

Your insubordination and lack of respect is only reflecting badly on yourself and your house. As King, I demand a certain amount of respect from counts just like Dukes and the Kaiser demand the same from me. This is a fuedal society, not anarchy...

"Little Brother."

Helmut says slowly and continues.

"Only authority you hold, is the authority in Outremer. I have no business in Outremer,thus i couldnt care less of your authority. In this feodal system,My supreme lord is Kaiser and my feodal lord is my Duke,the Duke of Franconia. You are just mere chieftain of crusaders, so basicly nothing but a wondering general of the Reich. I would bow to dog, before to you little brother."

*Fritz stands up, pounds on the table and bellows*

Is anyone in charge here? This is absolute chaos. With the Kaiser gone and no one seemingly to control the proceedings, this Diet has devolved into a morass of bitter recriminations and flippant outbursts.

I for one am taking my feet elsewhere until this chamber begins to resemble a Diet instead of a brawl.

*Fritz grabs his walking stick and quickly exits without looking back*

Actually Count Helmut,

CA 12.9 is about to pass and it codifies into law that the King of Outremer is above Counts. True, I am not your direct superior. But I am your better for as long as I hold this position. I am an agent of the Kaiser tasked with administrating the Reich's holdings in the Far East. You will treat me with proper respect or I will ensure that there will be consequences.

Arnold

My parting comment to this Chamber is as follows.

I'd suggest every noble here makes it his sole purpose to understand his Liege Lords intentions and beliefs.

If you don't...well then, you might find yourself in a predicament.

If the Kaiser has a point...I'll "GET IT", I assure you.

If my Nobles, CAN'T understand me, then they bloody well better, AND FAST!!!

With that the Duke strides towards the Chamber doors

GROM, BANE...SWORD PRACTISE IN 10 Minutes!!! And I want 5 opponents for this session...I NEED TO VENT.

His traditional lightning draw of his father's sword startles the the Guards to the point of battle readiness. With a sudden motion the Duke feigns a strike on the Guard. His reaction is quick and professional, but not enough for the Duke to disarm him immediately

Don't come to Austria boy...you'd be dead in minutes against the Hungarian's.

With a smile Helmut replies. After seeing the Austrian Duke rumbling out from the Diet.

"Little brother,the key word is: about to pass. Thus it has not yet passed. You can moan for your honour after the votes are closed,but i will be back in Russia by then. If you start making claims based on assumptions as King of Outremer like that, im afraid you wont have much of a kingdom soon. But then i sayed it already before and you are just making my point."

And again, my reply to Duke Arnold is this,

His people listen to him because he is a very effective Duke. He applies the carrot and the stick in a balanced measure. My dear friend Sigismund, may he rest in peace, spoke glowingly about Duke Arnold. The Duke demands loyalty but he gives it as well. He backs up his people. He shows real leadership. And for all of this, he has my respect despite our past differences.

But, what happens if there is a Duke that is not effective like Duke Arnold? Then, the law comes into play because there is nothing else. And the law provides the space for an elector to ignore a Duke. And that leads to the heart of the problem in Outremer. Outremer provides another political oppurtunity for an elector that is outside of the Duchies. And this political independence is alarming to the Duchies. This has to be reconciled.

Count Helmut,

Yes it has not passed yet. (OOC: only two more hours so every count should get his licks in on Jan now. :D )

But, as an agent of the Kaiser, treating me this way shows disrespect towards him. That can not possibly serve you or your Duchy very well.

Message from Russia

A Franconian is better than someone who's not Franconian, just as a Bavarian is better than someone not Bavarian, and the same goes for Swabians, Austrians, Byzantines, Mongols, even Russians.
If a Count wishes to shout at a King he can do that if he wishes, but he can see his County taken from him. However it is strange that a King, a King who shouted at a Duke, at the time he was not even a Count demands respect.
A King, who spends his nights drowning himself in Alcohol, someone who has nothing better to do, it seems, than getting drunk, demands respect from one of the bravest man in the Reich. Someone who voluntarely went on a Suicide Mission into Deep and Dangerous Russia. If someone deserves respect it is that man.

Being angry at the King of the Outremer shows no disrespect towards the Kaiser. Afterall the position is changed every other Diet Session, eventually someone will become King. Yes the Kaiser chooses him, but why would you disrespect the Kaiser if you disrespect the King?
I disrespect you, but I do not, I repeat not, disrespect my little brother, simply because he's a damn way better than you.
You should thank my little brother on your bare knees that you got this job, you shouldn't get drunk and hang around in every whorehouse in Rome. Do your duty as a German, if you are still worthy of bearing the German banner.

Elberhard:

I have been asked to bring the Diet to order. Count Fritz von Kastilien has a point - the current debates about disrespect and anger are not very becoming of this Diet. I suggest we take a short break and await the results of the elections in an hour or two. We can then return and hopefully focus more constructively on what is to be done.

Electors who still feel the need to vent are free to adjourn to the Tavern.

Elberhard: Well the results are in - congratulations to Matthias Steffen on his re-election. I am sorry I myself could not vote for him, but faced with the choice of him or my equally superlative brother Hans, I was like Burroden’s ass. You may recall the donkey - placed between two equally tempting piles of hay, the poor thing could not choose and starved to death. My only consolation is that at least I took Lothar and Anselhelm down with me.

And it seems that almost all pieces of legislation passed. Quite why we had such a fractious Diet session leading up to such a harmonious result, I am not sure. However, it is no surprise that the only piece of legislation that failed was one seeking to make us less fractious.

Now, I would like to address a couple of points of order. The first concerns the increasing amount of legal quibbling and introspection in the Diet. I suggest that when an Elector wants to raise a point of law, they first consult me privately before bringing it forward to be dissected by the whole Diet. If they do not get satisfaction or believe the issue deserves wider scrutiny, then they are entitled to present it publicly. But to streamline procedures, I would ask that they approach me first. I do not presume to be a great legal scholar, but I can consult with the Reich’s genuine lawyers - some of whom were around when our venerable Charter was drafted - and present their opinion.

The second is on etiquette and respect within the Diet. This is a rough place. Tempers get flared. Voices get raised. I do not propose to change that. Of course, we must have order and so I will insist that respect is shown to the Kaiser or whoever else is maintaining order in the Diet. But I do not see it as my role to demand Counts show respect to their Dukes or to the King of Outremer. If Electors wish to be wilful or disrespectful, so be it. They might ask themselves exactly what they seek to gain by that behaviour, but that is for them. I will draw the line at insults and abuse. But I confess that by my nature, I do not set that line very high. And sometimes I may be nodding off when one of you falls so low even a @#$%^&!!!ing @#$%^&!!!er would blush. So if anyone feels I am falling down on the job, again contact me privately and I will wake up… I mean review the matter.

Now, after that mouthful, I yield the floor.

Thank you, mein Prince.

Duke Ansehelm, I think by now it is clear that the Russian Crusade is not the suicide mission some feared. I direct the Diet to the Chancellor's Report here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=236

You have fought two battles so far, one against an force that was one third your size and a tenth-share of your strength. The other was a third you strength, and only slightly more than half your size. Between these two battles you lost an hundred and eight men.

What you and Count Helmut have done is quiet remarkable, but it is not a suicide mission. To call it such is innappropriate when there are other nobles who actually have died fighting more dangerous battles.

I justly ascribe the success of my brother's expedition thus far to the protection of God on Ansehelm's holy errand, and hope that this leads others to take greater stock of the power of sincere prayer and daily masses.

Arnold, fresh from a solid round of smashing poor Knights in the training yard, is clearly refreshed and in a much better mood.

King Jan, regarding your point about me being effective while other are less so...well that's just the spoon that stirs the pot isn't it.

Some men are better than others, some men do things differently than others.

There should be no "legislation" to fill this gap.

If you study the Roman's then their form of government evened the playing field with substantial representation of the the masses.

Feudalism does not do this.

Power is concerntrated in a few men. That, by design, means their abilities or lack there of, has a direct impact on the result.

Look at that French twat over the border for example, or the Danish Kings recently.

With great men, great things happen in Empires and Kingdoms, with weak men, then you get the opposite unfortunately.

Duke Arnold,

I agree with you wholeheartedly on your assement of Feudalism. The question becomes, how do we reconcile Feudalism with "free will"? Free will is enshrined in the Charter.

OOC: I have more ponderings on this in the OOC thread where it is more appropriate.

It's not a question of reconciling anything.

There has been "free will" in the past...there will be "free will" in the future.

This has occurred while the Feudal system has been in affect.

As far as I'm concerned we are finished with this matter.

Like all contracts gentlemen you only test them and their strength when required. If things are operating within certain limits then the legislation is merely a frame work for us to work with.

Now people need to work inside the system or use the current system to pass legislation and change it.

Talking about something will do only so much.

ACTION is ultimately required to effect change.

Stop talking take some action you you feel strongly enough about it.

But, excuse me if I have missed something completely obvious, hasn't the Diet and the whole Empire functionned quite capably until now? Has the Empire not expanded in a relatively safe manner? Has the Diet not made the good decisions concerning some matters?

*Fritz von Kastilien rises and raps the table with his knuckles*

Our good Friedrich has spoken correctly. The Reich has functioned very well for many, many years and there is indeed little need for change.

There is, however, trouble in one matter which continues to plague this Diet: the absence of our Kaiser. Now, we have here *Fritz gestures around the room* many good men, willing to give their lives in defence of all we hold dear. We travel here over many miles, or send speedy messengers, to discuss important matters of state. Our elections, just concluded, are a vital part of the Empire's continuance. And yet we are missing an individual whose importance is such that his title and the official title of the Reich are inseparable.

The Emperor, the head of the Empire! If he were to appear before us, transported as if by magic at this very moment, would we see an Emperor ready to defend the Reich and full of the strength of God? Would we find him an inspiring sight to behold?

I am not calling for legislation -- God forbid! But it is troubling, the absence of so necessary a personage.

That is all.

*Fritz nods to the other Electors and seats himself, rubbing a scar on his chin*

Duke Arnold,

I think you have eloquently laid out the impasse before us. And I agree that talking about the matter in here has reached the end of its usefulness and I believe action is needed. I do have an idea on how to solve this with legislation that would appeal to all sides. I am very reluctant to talk about legislation in the Diet when the Diet is not in session. But, I would very much like to work with you on this. Please let me know if you are interested and I will write to you my thoughts.

*gives a respectful head nod in the Duke's direction*

Athalfwolf stands, glaring at Fritz

Fritz, the Kaiser is absent, because he has things to do elsewhere. It is NOT our buisness to know where he goes! That is his! Or are you planning something...?

Athalfwolf squints at him, and murmurs
Treason? Murder? Betrayal of Trust?

I thinkyou should quite forget his absence, or I shall make you forget it.