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Why would they explain anything to anyone? Consumers continue to buy thier products no questions asked, expectations unfulfilled.Quote:
Originally Posted by gardibolt
This isnt the 1st title or 1st addon for them, they gaming business model has been working like this for sometime. Its customers like you who have chosen not to make the purchase based on this criteria, that, and only that is the method by which to expect change.
Eh? Rootkit with 1.2?Quote:
Originally Posted by gardibolt
I hope that isn't true ~:( (about the roolkit with patch 1.2 for M2TW)
No, since I scan for rootkits every 2 weeks, and don't have any on my pc.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerH
@Odin and Lancelot
Thanks for the vote of confidence in my opinions guys, but I would urge you to take a look at SecuRom's own site just to satisfy yourselves that my interpretion of the risks are valid.
http://www.securom.com/solution_market.asp
If you spend a few minutes just reading though the Optional Products list in the menu in the left hand margin you will see exactly what Sony are offering their customers as potential valued added benefits with SecuRom, and by implication what SecuRom must be capable of doing to your PC.
I was particularly concerned with the additional features being sold to customers under labels n-CD and Web-Link.
Yeah lol "Collect valuable customer data for 1 : 1 marketing activities" doesn't spyware do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Didz
Man, oh man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Didz
CA have totally dropped in my expectations and views:whip:
Well I that puts me off ever buying another one of their games for ethical reasons. :yes:
Too bad guys, I had mostly enjoyed you're games but oh well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
I didnt think so.
Exactly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Terentius Varro
Well to be fair the insertion of SecuRom on the kingdoms CD would not have been CA's decision it was probably made by Sega.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
Also as far as we know the option used is merely the basic CD encryption system, nobody has any evidence that it includes any of the value-added features offered by Sony. In fact, one of my biggest issues with this action by Sega is that it has been done in secret without disclodure to the customer and therefore the customer has not been given the option to make an informed decision on whether to accept the conditions imposed by Sega on the use of their software. I think if companies are going to use SecuRom or similar products then it should be their legal duty to inform the customer, before purchase, that their product includes invasive software which could compromise their privacy and system security.
The other thing we don't know, because it isn't explained to non-customers on the SecuRom site, is whether the basic SecuRom installation can be upgraded insitu. It would certainly make good marketing sense if this were the case...in other words....if the basic encryption programme could be used as a trojan horse to facilitate the download of other options like n-CD or Web-Link options at a later date when either Sega or another customer decided they wished to purchase the option. Also given the fact that Sony are offering to license out the SecuRom toolkit to their customers so that they can produce their own enhancements the ability to download such features onto pre-'infacted' PC's would make sense.
It's just sad that the paying customers are the ones most hurt. 99% of the pirates who get this game will already have had the copy protection removed before they get it.
I personally buy a retail copy of the games I want to support, sit it on my shelf, download and burn a pirated copy and use that for installations with my paid for CD key. It takes a few extra days for games to become available, cracks too...but it's well worth the hassle of completely avoiding any of this crap they try to put paying customers through.
Kingdoms is an excellent expansion, and I would highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys the series.
Hi All !
Sorry to butt in like this, but I have a question: Should I buy and install Kingdoms or not ? i.e what is the 'verdict' on Securom ?
Well to me it seems like this whole SecuRom thing has become more of a question of principle than anything else. At least, I haven't heard of any problems with it, and haven't experienced any myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
:balloon2:
To try to answer your question, Sinan, there are no current corporate exploits or known mass vulnerabilities in the version of SecuRom that is installed with Kingdoms. About 90% of the people who've bought Kingdoms seem to like it, and reviews are almost all positive. The risk seems negligible next to the reward, but...
1. You won't be able to uninstall SecuRom. No, not ever, not unless Sega decides to let you do it or you wipe your HD (Or some hacker comes up with a, no doubt, very technical and difficult procedure to eliminate it). No one has confirmed or denied that Sega could or could not update the SecuRom software remotely to incorporate additional features without your knowledge or permission, but that very possibility is one that the SecuRom people brag about on their website.
2. You'll be supporting a company (SecuRom) that is actively working to incorporate spyware into copyright protection schemes and thus into games.
3. It's obvious from an end user perspective that this copyright protection scheme is no more effective than older methods, just more invasive and burdensome for the purchaser.
This is an absurd and possibly offensive comparison, but Kingdoms is like a beautiful woman with herpes. You'll have a great time with her for awhile, but she's leaving something nasty behind you'll have for the rest of your (computer's) life even after you dump her.
I'm not buying it until the SecuRom issue is solved, and depending on how it's handled I may not buy it at all. There are a lot of good, clean games on the market right now competing for my dollar.
:egypt:
The problem for me is that that securom is a backdoor to my computer which someone can use to rob me and i won't be able to see it coming since securom disables Process explorer-yes you guessed it to hide securom
http://forum.sysinternals.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11000
I'm glad I found this thread. I was thinking about ordering Kingdoms, but I won't be now. Many thanks to all who've explained the ins and outs of the SecureRom installation here.
For my part....I have been assured by the techie guy that looks after my PC's that if I wanted SecuRom removed he has a tool that will do it. But that 'so far' nobody he knows has reported having any major issues with the software on their system, and so, he thinks that its benign.
The main storm of protest seems to focus upon Bioshock for which SecuRom has been used to impose a limit on re-installations. The customer was not made aware of this condition prior to purchase and I suspect that eventually this will result in a court case to test the validity of the Securom's presence. If so, we ought to get some clarification of our legal position.
Thanks for the replies!
I think I get it. Basically Securom will prevent you from launching pirated games or launching games without the CD. The latter case people often do with original purchased games just to save the hassle of finding the CD every time you want to play. Securom will also send data about the checks made to your system to the parent company.
Will it prevent you from having drive emulators installed as well ?
The fact that it was secret is why I'm pissed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Didz
It's what they can do without my knowledge.
I've been reading this topic a little, and i find that having the original CD can sometimes be a burden, ever since i wore out my old C&C:Red Alert CD thus making it impossible for me to play as Soviets (i had no idea there were such things as cracks in those days)
the highlighted part is what makes me most nervous. I don't want anyone to be keeping tabs on me without my knowledge. If i wanted someone to stalk me, i'd let that creepy guy with the binoculars keep gazing into my windows :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
Also, i'm not too computer savvy myself, but whats to stop someone from making some sort of virus to mod said program and rather then it send system checks to the company, it sends every password i input into my computer to some guy who proceeds to empty out every $ he can find in my name right into his wallet? (yes, i'm paranoid, but its better then being completely ignorant when your on unfamiliar ground)
edit: Oh, and also, if you go to a restaurant and order a steak dinner, wouldn't it make you mad to find out that they add in a hotdog to the meal? If it came with something i didn't want, at least tell me before you give it to me (sorry, i'm bad at metaphors)
I should point out; I wrote "I think I get it." That does'nt mean I DO get it. I was hoping someone would say True ! or False !
Anyway that's what I gathered from reading through their website. I don't like that idea either and IMO if you bought the game you should be able to have a way to run it without the CD. I'm 9000 kms from home right now why on earth would I want to pack yet another item into my already 20kilo bag ? I'd want to just boot my laptop and play without the frekin CD.
Well, the Bioshock guys said it was just mostly for the release and not for the lifetime of the product(as you make the most $$$ during the first couple months) and would later release a tool to remove securom from Bioshock. The Securom on Kingdoms isn't a big deal. Its like Safedisk with 200% more lame.
Edit- Atleast this is what I hear floating around.
Have a proper bought from amazon version of Kingdoms.
AVg anti-rootkit hasn't picked up the secuROm thing yet.
However I've already had one instance when the DVD drive failed to read the DVD properly and I got a snotty message from sceuROM.
So what's the position if our original DVD becomes unreadable - can't see SEGA sending us a replacement - and will be able to install a replacement bought second hand?
I simply will not install anything on my computer that I cannot later uninstall if I so desire.
Especially not a trojan horse information collecting program that tries to sneak it's way on without my knowing, and causes conflicts with other programs I use.
A couple of points I'd like to throw in just for discussion's sake.
1. Regarding "erasing" files. Simply sending a file to the trash bin in Windows and then emptying it will not actually erase the file. Unless the system re-allocates the space the file was in, it will remain readable. Hence why you often see those "undelete" programs that can recover data. Also, even if you reformat your drive when you reinstall windows, the data is still there because the WinXP until does not do a 'zero-fill' and rewrite everything. Indeed I've reinstalled WinXP before on an old drive and been able to recover data from the previous installation. The best way to ensure data erasure is to wipe it using a utility designed to do so, which basically overwrites the sections on the drive the file existed on several times with random data strings. Even then, it's not 100% perfect, hence why professionals can often recover things that have even been written over before.
You wouldn't be able to detect them anyway, if you are scanning within your installed OS (which I'm guessing is Windows). Rootkits hook the kernel and completely hide themselves from any detection methods from inside the OS, including hiding their system calls and the actual files themselves. Things such as Sysinternal's Autoruns can only do so much, and do not show any symptoms of the current batch of rootkits which are pretty malicious. The only way to detect them reliably is to use bootable cds that run specialized detection software (like some of the forensics specialized linux distros), or stick the drive in another PC that doesn't boot from it and run forensics that way. I had a rootkit infection last year that was incredibly nasty, and it took me awhile to finally cleanse my system before I could back everything up before I reinstalled. THAT was nasty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
If you already knew that, great, then this is more for other's benefits.
:balloon2:
Disclaimer - My job is IT security which includes forensics.
Whacker you've installed Kingdoms right ?
we all did despite the outrage methinks
Sure haven't my friend, not planning on buying Kingdoms or any future TW titles at the time being either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
Me thinks I'm glad I made the decision to never buy another TW game again until it hits the bargain buckets (after the M2TW debacle).
Looks like it has paid off, because now I can see how this pans out without being a guinea pig. :yes:
I am a pre-order victim however i installed it on my offline rig so there is damage control
My whiny 2-cents: just commenting in the hopes that CA/SEGA will respond to this matter if enough paying customers bitch about it. Having been burned for my early purchase of M2TW and it's retarded AI (I'm going bargain bin from now on) I have bought my last TW game until CA/SEGA addresses SecuRom.
Someone from CA please speak up.
The silence is deafening.