If the NY Times can't back up their smear on McCain, they're in for a world of well-earned hurt. I heard some gabbering today that this is the first of a series, but who knows if that's for real. Seems to me if they had hard facts and named sources they would have used them right away.
Personally, my favorite news item from today came straight from the Aspen Times: Don’t forget Angry White Men! It's just like The Onion, only for real.
-edit-
Why do I enjoy these cheesy campaign videos so much? This one isn't as wonderfully awful as the Hillary 4 U & Me, but it's got its own kind of cheesetastic charm.
Security details at Barack Obama's rally Wednesday stopped screening people for weapons at the front gates more than an hour before the Democratic presidential candidate took the stage at Reunion Arena. [...]
"Sure," said Lawrence, when asked if he was concerned by the great number of people who had gotten into the building without being checked. But, he added, the turnout of more than 17,000 people seemed to be a "friendly crowd."
And by the same logic, I'm sure that 99.99999% of the people in Dallas in 1963 were also friendly ...
Security details at Barack Obama's rally Wednesday stopped screening people for weapons at the front gates more than an hour before the Democratic presidential candidate took the stage at Reunion Arena. [...]
"Sure," said Lawrence, when asked if he was concerned by the great number of people who had gotten into the building without being checked. But, he added, the turnout of more than 17,000 people seemed to be a "friendly crowd."
And by the same logic, I'm sure that 99.99999% of the people in Dallas in 1963 were also friendly ...
:jawdrop: Wow. So much to say but no idea where to start.
02-22-2008, 19:03
Louis VI the Fat
Re : Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Personally, my favorite news item from today came straight from the Aspen Times: Don’t forget Angry White Men! It's just like The Onion, only for real.
Doesn't that article give a fairly acurate description of what the average American white male voter thinks?
What I read in it, was not an attempt at writing an accurate portrayal of contemporary America, but a portrayal of the minds and thoughts of a large mass of white male voters. In this respect, I have never fortgotten what Gawain once wrote: 'Me and Devastating Dave are stil the majority in America, and DD is making sure it stays that way'. I've always thought that Gawain was very right in that, certainly in the first observation of the two.
(Oh, and go Texas and Ohio! Do what's right for America!)
02-22-2008, 19:23
ICantSpellDawg
Re: Re : Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Doesn't that article give a fairly acurate description of what the average American white male voter thinks?
What I read in it, was not an attempt at writing an accurate portrayal of contemporary America, but a portrayal of the minds and thoughts of a large mass of white male voters. In this respect, I have never fortgotten what Gawain once wrote: 'Me and Devastating Dave are stil the majority in America, and DD is making sure it stays that way'. I've always thought that Gawain was very right in that, certainly in the first observation of the two.
(Oh, and go Texas and Ohio! Do what's right for America!)
This forum is literally chock full of that voting block. I think proletariat and Strike for the south (along with 2 other asian guys) are the only ones who it doesn't apply to.
02-22-2008, 20:12
Lemur
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Wow. So much to say but no idea where to start.
They're saying the order came from the Secret Service, which I find almost impossible to believe. The SS is known for excessive paranoia, not for bending the rules to fill a stadium more quickly. Bad bit of business, but at least it's come to light. I can think of many ways I would like to see people eliminated from the race for the Presidency, and none of them involve assassination.
In McCain-related news, his campaign's finances seem to be in a terrible tangle. The loan he took out with federal matching funds as collateral may be a real problem. Hate to see a candidate hobbled like this ...
McCain's attempts to build up his campaign coffers before a general election contest appeared to be threatened by the stern warning yesterday from Federal Election Commission Chairman David M. Mason, a Republican. Mason notified McCain that the commission had not granted his Feb. 6 request to withdraw from the presidential public financing system.
The implications of that could be dramatic. Last year, when McCain's campaign was starved for cash, he applied to join the financing system to gain access to millions of dollars in federal matching money. He was also permitted to use his FEC certification to bypass the time-consuming process of gathering signatures to get his name on the ballot in several states, including Ohio.
By signing up for matching money, McCain agreed to adhere to strict state-by-state spending limits and an overall limit on spending of $54 million for the primary season, which lasts until the party's nominating convention in September. The general election has a separate public financing arrangement.
02-22-2008, 22:48
Vladimir
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
The Secret Service would be a nice place to start but that opens up a whole new series of questions. Was there precedent? Who made the call? Was it against regulations? And many more.
If there is precedent and this happens often then forget what I said. I still don't like it :angry: !
2nd
I think McCain will get a good funding boost after this NYT, curiosity. His campaign already sent out e-mails to try to exploit it.
02-22-2008, 22:56
Zim
Re: Re : Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Grrr, I'm angry and white? :clown:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
This forum is literally chock full of that voting block. I think proletariat and Strike for the south (along with 2 other asian guys) are the only ones who it doesn't apply to.
02-23-2008, 00:32
Ice
Re: Re : Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zim
Grrr, I'm angry and white? :clown:
Apparently I am too whatever that means.
02-23-2008, 03:15
ICantSpellDawg
Re: Re : Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice
Apparently I am too whatever that means.
You aren't angry and white?
02-23-2008, 04:14
Strike For The South
Re: Re : Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
This forum is literally chock full of that voting block. I think proletariat and Strike for the south (along with 2 other asian guys) are the only ones who it doesn't apply to.
?:smash:
02-23-2008, 04:19
Evil_Maniac From Mars
Re: Re : Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
?:smash:
Well, I haven't seen you angry.
02-23-2008, 20:49
Ice
Re: Re : Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Sure, ruin a fine rhetorical flourish to accomplish ... nothing. Meanwhile, your favorite candidate's staffers are turning to drink.
Morale is low. After 13 months of dawn-to-dark seven-day weeks, the staff is exhausted. Some have taken to going home early — 9 p.m. — turning off their BlackBerrys, and polishing off bottles of wine, several senior staff members said.
Some advisers have been heard yelling at close friends and colleagues. In a much-reported incident, Mr. Penn and the campaign advertising chief, Mandy Grunwald, had a screaming match over strategy recently that prompted another senior aide, Guy Cecil, to leave the room. “I have work to do — you’re acting like kids,” Mr. Cecil said, according to three people in the room.
Others have taken several days off, despite it being crunch time. Some have grown depressed, be it over Mr. Obama’s momentum, the attacks on the campaign’s management from outside critics or their view that the news media has been much rougher on Mrs. Clinton than on Mr. Obama.
First your boy Thompson goes down leaving not even a ripple in the water, and now your BFF Hillary is on the rocks. I want to bet against you someday when there's money to be made.
02-24-2008, 18:59
Lemur
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Another comparison of Clinton and Obama in terms of how they run a campaign:
Clinton fans don’t see their standard-bearer’s troubles this way. In their view, their highly substantive candidate was unfairly undone by a lightweight showboat who got a free ride from an often misogynist press and from naïve young people who lap up messianic language as if it were Jim Jones’s Kool-Aid. Or as Mrs. Clinton frames it, Senator Obama is all about empty words while she is all about action and hard work.
But it’s the Clinton strategists, not the Obama voters, who drank the Kool-Aid. The Obama campaign is not a vaporous cult; it’s a lean and mean political machine that gets the job done. The Clinton camp has been the slacker in this race, more words than action, and its candidate’s message, for all its purported high-mindedness, was and is self-immolating.
The gap in hard work between the two campaigns was clear well before Feb. 5. Mrs. Clinton threw as much as $25 million at the Iowa caucuses without ever matching Mr. Obama’s organizational strength. In South Carolina, where last fall she was up 20 percentage points in the polls, she relied on top-down endorsements and the patina of inevitability, while the Obama campaign built a landslide-winning organization from scratch at the grass roots. In Kansas, three paid Obama organizers had the field to themselves for three months; ultimately Obama staff members outnumbered Clinton staff members there 18 to 3.
In the last battleground, Wisconsin, the Clinton campaign was six days behind Mr. Obama in putting up ads and had only four campaign offices to his 11. Even as Mrs. Clinton clings to her latest firewall — the March 4 contests — she is still being outhustled. Last week she told reporters that she “had no idea” that the Texas primary system was “so bizarre” (it’s a primary-caucus hybrid), adding that she had “people trying to understand it as we speak.” Perhaps her people can borrow the road map from Obama’s people. In Vermont, another March 4 contest, The Burlington Free Press reported that there were four Obama offices and no Clinton offices as of five days ago. For what will no doubt be the next firewall after March 4, Pennsylvania on April 22, the Clinton campaign is sufficiently disorganized that it couldn’t file a complete slate of delegates by even an extended ballot deadline.
Or as another columnist wrote:
Among her other cascading woes, it turns out that Hillary is not able to manage her political family’s money. Like a prudent housekeeper, Obama spent the cash he raised — including from his continuing relationships with small donors — far more shrewdly, on ads rather than on himself.
Hillaryland spent like a hedge fund manager in a flat-screen TV store. Her campaign attempted to show omnipotence by lavishing a fortune on the take-no-prisoners strategists Howard Wolfson and Mark Penn, and on having the best of everything from the set decoration at events to Four Seasons rooms. In January alone, they spent $11,000 on pizza, $1,200 on Dunkin’ Donuts and $95,384 at a Des Moines Hy-Vee grocery store for get-out-the-vote sandwich platters.
02-24-2008, 20:14
Crazed Rabbit
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Well, Hillary does have a lot of experience. Problem is most of it is from that healthcare debacle.
And does this mean I shouldn't hold out hope for a Hillary win March 4 that will prolong the democratic deadlock till the convention and result in a fractured party?
About the SS in Dallas with Obama - I visit a gun forum (big surprise!) - and a few of the members thought the end of checks on people at the rally was Obama trying to woo gun owners or show his trust in the American people. :dizzy2:
I really don't want a big government socialist like Obama to sweep to power with a democratic congress and start passing big increases in federal spending and permanent programs.
CR
02-24-2008, 21:32
Redleg
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
The recent news seems to demonstrate a crack in both the Obama and Clinton campaigns. Both are seemly now going for the throat of the other attacking character not policy or performance.
Should be interesting if they both self-destruct politically before March 4.
02-24-2008, 21:47
Crazed Rabbit
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
The Public Editor of the NYT comes out against the McCain story:
Quote:
“If the point of the story was to allege that McCain had an affair with a lobbyist, we’d have owed readers more compelling evidence than the conviction of senior staff members,” he [Bill Keller, Exec Editor] replied. “But that was not the point of the story. The point of the story was that he behaved in such a way that his close aides felt the relationship constituted reckless behavior and feared it would ruin his career.”
I think that ignores the scarlet elephant in the room. A newspaper cannot begin a story about the all-but-certain Republican presidential nominee with the suggestion of an extramarital affair with an attractive lobbyist 31 years his junior and expect readers to focus on anything other than what most of them did. And if a newspaper is going to suggest an improper sexual affair, whether editors think that is the central point or not, it owes readers more proof than The Times was able to provide.
...
But what the aides believed might not have been the real truth. And if you cannot provide readers with some independent evidence, I think it is wrong to report the suppositions or concerns of anonymous aides about whether the boss is getting into the wrong bed.
So they say the point was not that he behaved in a improper or inappropriate way, but that unnamed sources felt he might be? Wow.
CR
02-24-2008, 23:58
KukriKhan
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
So they say the point was not that he behaved in a improper or inappropriate way, but that unnamed sources felt he might be? Wow.
CR
We give stronger evidence than that in CapoII.
On the Dem side: on Russert's Face the Nation this morning, he ran side-by-side film clips of Hillary "borrowing" speech themes from Bill's stuff of 15 years ago (or whenever he still had dark hair). Funny stuff.
02-25-2008, 00:30
Geoffrey S
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Just some statements poorly concealed as questions for the American crowd more knowledgeable than me on such matters:
1. Both Obama and Clinton are extremely divisive. Whoever wins the primaries is going to have a hard time keeping fringes of the Dems in line?
2. McCain, if nothing else, has the potential to reach the middle ground and has largescale backing by the party base?
3. Nader will take an important chunk out of Clinton, at least?
4. The Dems appeal, as always, to mostly (sub)urban types. They're going to have plenty of trouble taking the rest?
The above makes me wonder, in total, if the Dems stand any realistic chance at all of facing McCain in the elections and winning?
02-25-2008, 01:05
seireikhaan
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
Just some statements poorly concealed as questions for the American crowd more knowledgeable than me on such matters:
1. Both Obama and Clinton are extremely divisive. Whoever wins the primaries is going to have a hard time keeping fringes of the Dems in line?
2. McCain, if nothing else, has the potential to reach the middle ground and has largescale backing by the party base?
3. Nader will take an important chunk out of Clinton, at least?
4. The Dems appeal, as always, to mostly (sub)urban types. They're going to have plenty of trouble taking the rest?
The above makes me wonder, in total, if the Dems stand any realistic chance at all of facing McCain in the elections and winning?
1. Obama is not divisive. Where do you get that? There are more "no party" voters going for Obama as opposed to McCain. Plus, the Dems are so far turning out record numbers for their primaries so far(with the exception of Alaska:sweatdrop: ), a good sign for them in the general election. Republicans are on status quo for the most part.
2. Possible, but it still seems that a lot of the hardcore, especially socially, conservatives still aren't buying into him. Although the NYT may have reversed that, possibly.
3. Nadar was a big influence. In 2000. Now, he's mostly a joke, and far fewer are buying his message. Plus, I haven't heard that he's running yet. Anyone have confirmation on that?
4. First of all, suburban types make up a pretty large chunk of population in America, though it'll vary depending on where you are. Thank the '50's for that. Additionally, they tend to appeal to inner city folks as well, and Obama particularly will appeal to this block. Rural areas probably will still go more Republican, though.
02-25-2008, 01:10
Evil_Maniac From Mars
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamikhaan
Plus, I haven't heard that he's running yet. Anyone have confirmation on that?
1. Obama is not divisive. Where do you get that? There are more "no party" voters going for Obama as opposed to McCain. Plus, the Dems are so far turning out record numbers for their primaries so far(with the exception of Alaska:sweatdrop: ), a good sign for them in the general election. Republicans are on status quo for the most part.
Well, put it this way. Those not taken in with his crowd-pleasing speeches haven't failed to notice he is offering no clear policy, and nobody can fail to notice his almost complete lack of experience. I could at least imagine a lot of people voting to prevent someone like him from taking office.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamikhaan
2. Possible, but it still seems that a lot of the hardcore, especially socially, conservatives still aren't buying into him. Although the NYT may have reversed that, possibly.
True. Also as you say, possibly media attacks would bolster his position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamikhaan
3. Nadar was a big influence. In 2000. Now, he's mostly a joke, and far fewer are buying his message. Plus, I haven't heard that he's running yet. Anyone have confirmation on that?
He's running. And he was a joke back in 2000; that didn't stop the left fringe from voting, and won't stop them this time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamikhaan
4. First of all, suburban types make up a pretty large chunk of population in America, though it'll vary depending on where you are. Thank the '50's for that. Additionally, they tend to appeal to inner city folks as well, and Obama particularly will appeal to this block. Rural areas probably will still go more Republican, though.
I should have been a bit more specific here. Urban areas tend to be far more evenly split between Republican/Democrats than rural areas, where the vote seemingly tends towards the Republicans. In that sense the Democrats are automatically fighting a slightly uphill battle, which I can't see being levelled by such characters as Clinton and Obama.
02-25-2008, 02:29
seireikhaan
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
Well, put it this way. Those not taken in with his crowd-pleasing speeches haven't failed to notice he is offering no clear policy, and nobody can fail to notice his almost complete lack of experience. I could at least imagine a lot of people voting to prevent someone like him from taking office.
Clear policy? Mayhaps you did not see his speech following the Wisconsin Primaries? He's put his positions and policy out there, and the only ones at this point who say he hasn't put it out haven't been paying attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
He's running. And he was a joke back in 2000; that didn't stop the left fringe from voting, and won't stop them this time.
I wouldn't quite say it was a joke back in 2000. You have to have some appeal to get about 3% of the voting populace in American to vote for you, especially considering how Dems and Reps have rigged elections in their favors. In comparison, look at how he did in '04 in comparison to 2000, and you'll see that he really didn't play a factor in it. Nadar had his year and his moment; now he's pretty much a relic of the past, and Dems are going to be especially wary of turning their vote to him after he helped Bush win the election in 2000.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
I should have been a bit more specific here. Urban areas tend to be far more evenly split between Republican/Democrats than rural areas, where the vote seemingly tends towards the Republicans. In that sense the Democrats are automatically fighting a slightly uphill battle, which I can't see being levelled by such characters as Clinton and Obama.
Not really. The uphill for Dems is more at a state level than anything else. They really need to win Ohio and Florida, though there are a few more swing states which can play a role as well. The thing to watch, imo, if Obama ends up with the nomination is possibly a few southern states switching sides, in the event that the black population finally actually turns out for the election, and in combination with social conservatives staying home because of dissatisfaction with McCain.
02-25-2008, 04:07
Crazed Rabbit
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
The problem for the dems, primary turnouts aside, is that the diehard supporters of Clinton and Obama don't like the other candidate. They're offering the same policies, for the most part, but very different charaters. I've heard of Hilary supporters saying they'd support McCain over Obama (exaggerated like GOP disdain for McCain? I think it might be deeper than that, considering McCain's broad appeal to independents).
And if Clinton pulls out a win, you can bet that all those enthusiastic Obama supporters are going to be apathetic.
CR
02-25-2008, 04:27
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I've heard of Hilary supporters saying they'd support McCain over Obama (exaggerated like GOP disdain for McCain? I think it might be deeper than that, considering McCain's broad appeal to independents).
With Nader in the game, now, they wouldn't necessarily "protest" by going with the GOP. Nader's very green, anti-corporate message would play well among the younger set of Obamites if Hil gets the nom and he'd be a non-GOP protest vote choice for hil lovers if Obama gets it. Nader may well siphon off 2-3 McCain votes (nationally) too.
