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Let's not forget this gem from May: "No deal is better than a bad deal." You voted for Brexit without a manifesto to be held to (eg. Farage touted Norway as a good model). And now we're getting Brexit. Own responsibility for it and its consequences. This is nowt to do with Remainers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
No deal IS better than a bad deal.
There is no logical link between what I have said and your rince cyle repeat claim that Remainers have no blame and that "I must own" brexit.
It was an acceptable deal, we should vote for it.
I will hold parliaments face to the grindstone until I get what I want, even if that means no deal.
But I have without fail defended and advocated on behalf of the deal.
you will get no mea culpa from me.
Is the current deal we have within the EU a bad deal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
Sounds familiar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
It's not amusing, conservatives. :worried:Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
FWIW, I think that anyone throwing stuff at politicians deserve on the spot retaliation. It was the case with John Prescott, it's the case now. However, Prescott did not blow himself up to be a macho militant. That's why people sympathised with Prescott when he punched the egg thrower. He's just an ordinary bloke who had an egg thrown at him, and he reacted understandably. Farage, OTOH, ramped up the language, saying that he'd bring a rifle to enact Brexit if necessary (remember Jo Cox MP, a Remainer, was shot dead in the original referendum campaign). Then when someone threw a milkshake on him, he pressed charges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
I don't mind that much when politicians make mistakes, or do stuff I disagree with. They are decisionmakers, and when you make decisions, sooner or later one of them will be wrong. But hypocrisy is unforgivable. That's do as I say, not as I do. That's Farage acting militant, then taking offence when someone does a very mild version of what he's advocated to him. That's Redwood saying that Brexit will benefit the UK, then advising his rich friends not to invest in the UK because Brexit will be bad for the economy. That's Farage saying that he will fight for Britain, but never bothering to turn up to any of the votes involving British issues. That's Farage not doing any of the work as an MEP, yet claiming all the salary paid to an MEP for doing that work. That's Farage saying that a 52-48 victory for Remain will not be the end of the argument, yet claiming exactly that when his side won by that exact margin.
Why do I quote all these examples of Brexiteer politicians? Because Brexit has normalised the corruption of UK politics, and Leave supporters will praise it nonetheless because they are on the winning side. I support moderate politics that takes the losing side into account, accepts opposing views without vilifying it as treason, and I support arguments based on evidence and reason. Because of that, I hate Corbyn. But Brexit is a much more extreme version of all Corbyn's faults.
"Leave supporters will praise it nonetheless..." And you support moderate politics after branding everyone that disagrees ipso facto an extremist... Personally I would say I am a Globalist and I am against the UK being forced into one clique at the expense of all other important power blocks.
For Corbyn, Brexit is only the prelude before he really destroys the country. I don't know how far he'd get before they'd be an uproar and the pound massively devalues.
~:smoking:
to what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
it was unnacceptable before the renegotiation .Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
it was unnacceptable after the renegotiation .
i want the deal, but ill have no deal rather than remain.
i believe we have covered these points on a number of occasions.
Moderate politics is politics that takes the views of the minority into account without deeming them traitors. Moderate politics is politics that respects unwritten but well-established custom. The vast majority of politics before Brexit could be described as moderate politics. Brexit politics has become what people can get away with.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Here we go. This is what Brexit is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBqfuUiBpXsQuote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
What I quoted there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
Yeah, There's also the Chretien incident in Canada, though the protester wasn't even doing anything in particular. When I first saw the video many years ago, all I perceived was the comedic and ridiculous aspect of a head of government going Mr. Hyde on a random schlemiel. It takes a more ominous cast these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Mmmmmmm - can we at least agree that staining someone's jacket is not an "attempted assassination" deserving of violently forceful retaliation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Anyway, it appears Farage is attempting to enforce a milkshake-prohibition zone within his vicinity.
Or is it the British police being proactive? Definitely a very British form of prohibition.Quote:
Police asked a McDonald's in Edinburgh not to sell ice cream or milkshakes during a rally run by Nigel Farage.
As hundreds of Brexit Party supporters joined a rally led by Mr Farage at Edinburgh's Corn Exchange, the nearby branch of the fast food chain avoided selling the products - to prevent a repeat of recent dairy-based attacks.
I dont see the parallel between objecting to an assault, and some tangent to far right politics. the act itself is apolitical .
You can talk to him about it at the annual Margaret Thatcher Conference soon: https://www.facebook.com/CentreforPo...type=3&theaterQuote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Debate the pros and cons, read some think tank studies about the wonders of privatization.
As the EU has demonstrated, just because one side wants to negotiate something doesn't mean the other side has to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
A healthcare system where the state and private providers also are involved?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Like the service in France, Germany and Italy - y'know, most of the countries in the EU.
Oh, yes and of course as is already the case in the UK - almost all GPs are private companies under NHS contract.
~:smoking:
Post-Brexit, we will have a Tory government backed (driven?) by the Brexit party. Most of the decisionmakers, such as the favourite to be PM post-May and the head of the Brexit party whom people like IA adore, are firmly in the Trump camp. So when we lose our bargaining power due to exit from a powerful bloc, and the decisionmakers are inclined to support the above, why do you think we won't negotiate with the US on those terms? Farage, likely to be kingmaker, actively supports dismantling the NHS in favour of the US model. Johnson, likely to become PM, is the favoured candidate of Trump. They're the people who will be in charge of Brexit after May goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Although the USA hasn't managed to get any other country in the world to use a system as bad as theirs and the UK is in the top 10 of the biggest economies, we'll clearly adapt the least efficient one on the planet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Your ability to see the future when it comes to poor outcomes of Brexit is amazing.
~:smoking:
Remember whne David Cameron wanted to sell off all those forests and then had to agree not to after the public outcry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
We live in a democracy - if the NHS gets privatised it will ultimately because those supporting the public sector option have lost the argument - and that's a fair-ways off.
Unless you no longer believe we are a democracy, in which case maybe you should be fleeing to somewhere like France or Germany.
Mission creep. During the referendum campaign, the talk of Brexit was a Norway type solution. After a few years of trying to implement Brexit, the next PM will be a no dealer (most of the Tory candidates and in particular the favourites are competing for the no deal Tory member vote). And now you're rationalising selling off the NHS as democracy in action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/...pg?imwidth=480
Trump has openly backed this guy, the bookie' favourite, to be the next PM. Trump has openly said that the NHS will be part of any future US-UK trade deal. The kingmaker, Farage, has said that the UK should follow the US model of healthcare.
All the evidence of mission creep will be dismissed as Campaign Fear until they're actually here, and then the arguments will change to will of the people. And Leavers will still blame the EU and tell Remainers to go and live in France and Germany.
The main concrete example of mission creep I've seen so far has been the last 30 years with the EU.
~:smoking:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Told you Leavers would continue to blame the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
An example of what Trump wants to do with the NHS.
If we get this post-Brexit, will Leavers own responsibility for this? Or will it still be the fault of the EU?Quote:
Donald Trump is ready to use trade talks to force the National Health Service to pay more for its drugs as part of his scheme to "put American patients first”.
Mr Trump has claimed that the high costs faced by US patients are a direct result of other countries’ health services “freeloading” at America’s expense.
Alex Azar, the US Health and Human Services Secretary, has said Washington will use its muscle to push up drug prices abroad, to lower the cost paid by patients in the United States.
"On the foreign side, we need to, through our trade negotiations and agreements, pressure them," Azar said on CNBC.
"And so we pay less, they pay more. It shouldn't be a one-way ratchet. We all have some skin in this game."
He continued: "The reason why they are getting better net prices than we get is their socialised system."
Any bilateral trade deal would take months to negotiate. We are currently at an impasse over chlorinated chicken -- I think you can safely rest on your government's negotiators not selling off the NHS for beads and wampum in any kind of a hurry.
BTW chickens washed in what is, essentially, pool water, does not strike me as much of a health risk. I'd be far more concerned over the possibility of shoddy personal sanitation and cleaning efforts at the chicken processing plants (we never have enough inspectors to watch over everything) than I would be about the chlorine water thing.
It is not really about chlorine, all the drama is really about animal welfare. in theory the eu regulatory model aims to keep animals disease free throughout the life cycle, where the us regulatory model aims to ensure that meat is disease free beyond the point of processing.
both result in safe chicken drumsticks - anyone telling you otherwise is mistaken - but the objectors cant frame the debate on grounds of animal welfare because nobody really cares. give people a choice and they'll buy the cheaper (us) chicken.
... which would lead to aneurisms of moral outrage.
It wasn't blame. It was a fact. A fact you seem to be extremely reluctant to face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
~:smoking:
Chlorinated chicken is an issue because, in the US, it's the sanitation catch all at the end of a production process where large parts fail current UK regulations. The chlorine isn't the issue. The reason why chlorination is required in the US is the issue. As an example, there was an investigation last year after salmonella caused 300 cases of sickness and 1 death in the UK. In the US, around 450 die each year from salmonella. No chlorination, and bad production processes is harder to hide. US production methods reduce costs by around 20%. AFAIK one of the US demands is that location of origin is not mandatory labelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
On the unlikelihood of the UK government selling off the NHS: this is what Trump wants. The most likely next PM, Boris Johnson, is Trump's favoured candidate. The man who has influenced the Tories on Brexit more than any other, Nigel Farage, has Bannon's and Trump's support, and is on record as saying that the UK should adopt the US healthcare system. In short, May is going soon (this Friday), and the next government will likely look favourably on Trump's ideas for the UK.
So are you going to be demanding a vote on the US-UK trade deal? Are you going to be demanding a vote on NATO and Five Eyes membership as well? If not, why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
[Sigh]Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Because these two entities - along with NATO amongst others - the ability to have judicial supremacy over UK courts.
Every time I say the same thing. And every time you ignore it since it doesn't fit your narrative.
~:smoking:
we've been over this, yes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian