Will ETW retail be a standalone version (no Steam install)?

So I was doing some web searches on Steam, and it seems like a lot of people have problems with it (apparently, like Vista, it has some DRM features that can use a lot of CPU, and some games will not start/play if Steam's servers go down or are overloaded and can't confirm your subscription is active).

Example thread: http://www.hiddenpath.com/node/264

So I was wondering if all versions of ETW will require Steam, or if a retail version bought at the store will be standalone and allow singleplayer gameplay witout Steam installation.

Also, is it possible that a version without Steam would not require as much CPU as the Steam version?

Empire will require you to install Steam, if only for the initial activation. After that, however, you can keep Steam in offline mode.

Welcome to the Org, btw! ~:wave:

Despite the negative attention Steam has recieved, it is significantly better than alternative forms of DRM.

We could have ended up with SecuROM. Plenty of high profile games have used it recently and I am incredibly glad Empire was not another.

Steam is reasonably unintrusive. It does not 'phone home' like new version of SecuRom. There is no limited number of installs (as far as I know), and you do not have to have a regular internet connection to play Steam powered games.

All in all Steam is the best choice (other than no DRM at all.)

Unless your PC has no internet connection. Leaving you with no legal alternative to play the game.

Originally Posted by lars573:
Unless your PC has no internet connection. Leaving you with no legal alternative to play the game.

Agreed. It's a shame companies still use mthods such as this. Recent events have firmly established that even the most draconian copy protection does nothing to stop piracy. I wish more companies would follow the example of Stardock and remoe any form of copy protection from the game, it makes things easier for paying customers, and not particularly any easier for pirates.

Originally Posted by Sir Beane:
Agreed. It's a shame companies still use mthods such as this. Recent events have firmly established that even the most draconian copy protection does nothing to stop piracy. I wish more companies would follow the example of Stardock and remoe any form of copy protection from the game, it makes things easier for paying customers, and not particularly any easier for pirates.

O.K. Leave your car door and House unlocked at all times. Hey an experience person can take your car in 60 seconds so why not let them take it in less.

Originally Posted by Belgolas:
O.K. Leave your car door and House unlocked at all times. Hey an experience person can take your car in 60 seconds so why not let them take it in less.

Yeah why not? It would be mean to inconvenience them after all. :beam:

This isn't something that needs to be discussed here however. DRM is a sensitive topic best suited to discussion in the backroom, and not in the Empire Total War forum. It's best if we stick to talking about the game.

Having no internet connection at all is like having a computer that cannot run the game. Got to upgrade and go with the times or suffer the consequences, as bad as it may sound.

Originally Posted by Husar:
Having no internet connection at all is like having a computer that cannot run the game. Got to upgrade and go with the times or suffer the consequences, as bad as it may sound.

Well, it's not just an hardware issue as you imply, but yes I live with the consequences.
And, it seems there are alternatives to TW coming around the corner. ;)

Originally Posted by Husar:
Having no internet connection at all is like having a computer that cannot run the game. Got to upgrade and go with the times or suffer the consequences, as bad as it may sound.

As sad as it is for some people this has become the truth.

The industry expects you to have some kind of internet connection, just like many publishers ship games solely on DvDs now. It is an expectation that has been brought on by advances in hardware, the times, and the PC gaming community. Where ten years ago online support was an added bonus, now days you get a funny look from people if you tell them the game you just bought is single-player only.

For whatever reason there are people who are unable to obtain some kind of reliable net connection on the comp they play games on, whether because they cannot afford it or just simply their location. It's a crap situation to be sure. :shame:

I understand fully the complaints that people are raising with the Steam activation but I suppose I am just being an optimist when I say that SEGA/CA could have made things a heck of a lot worse than Steam. When things like SecuROM and the infamous SPORE DRM are out there, Steam can't help but look attractive to me.

As for the issues brought up with Steam in this thread, I can only say I haven't even had the majority of them in the last two years. When Steam came out with Half-life 2 it was a mess, but since then the team behind the service has really upped their game. The only time steam seems to suck up CPU power is when it's first initializing, after that it's fine from my experiences. The Steam servers aren't nearly as unstable as they used to be. I don't think i've been kept from playing a game I wanted to play with Steam since the weekend hl2 was released. That's just me though, and my experiences do not equate to the experiences of others. Take the words as they are. :yes:

Originally Posted by :
SecuROM and the infamous SPORE DRM

I really don't see a difference, I own spore. I had go through the same obstacles, finding internet, activating, etc. I see no difference between steam activation and DRM activation honestly, other then the fact one has a account and one just requires you to be online. Infact I'll say that DRM was far far easier to activate because you didn't have to set up an account.

With steam of course your not getting a program installed in the backround I suppose, but steam's program I always found bugs, glitches and hassles with. When I uninstalled spore I just read the drm stuff online and removed the drm stuff like they said.

The true annoyance with steam for many will be you can't just get online and "activate it" you have set up an account, which means your going to have to find some quality internet time somewhere.

It may be a sign of the times, espically with 12-30 million people playing MMORPG's, next time your in the store ask your clerk you are looking for a turn based strategy game, and be amused by the puzzle look he will give you. He will probably direct you to Red Alert 3

People always assume such things, still even I who does not have a solid internet connection prefer the one time activation over a constant online activation.

Though make no doubt, even though they constantly say the studies show however many gamers dont' have net, sooner or later you will have a full online webscreen pop up in every game. Much like other franchises there will be a launch window showing news, updates and instant patches. Just way games are going sadly.

Though just like DRM and SecuROM, there will be write arounds and loop holes for steam with in the first day. It's just nature of the beast. Pirating is as likely as net activation requirements.

Originally Posted by Polemists:
I really don't see a difference, I own spore. I had go through the same obstacles, finding internet, activating, etc. I see no difference between steam activation and DRM activation honestly, other then the fact one has a account and one just requires you to be online. Infact I'll say that DRM was far far easier to activate because you didn't have to set up an account.

We'll just have to agree to disagree there. :yes:

Originally Posted by :
People always assume such things, still even I who does not have a solid internet connection prefer the one time activation over a constant online activation.

Though make no doubt, even though they constantly say the studies show however many gamers dont' have net, sooner or later you will have a full online webscreen pop up in every game. Much like other franchises there will be a launch window showing news, updates and instant patches. Just way games are going sadly.

I didn't realize just how many people lack a solid internet connection until about a month or so ago. It really surprised me, and made me a bit sad that DRM and activation software doesn't really taking them into account. Unfortunately DRM is a really tricky issue. You can't do one thing without upsetting one group, so they try to take it in another direction to appease that group and you inadvertently upset another. :dizzy2:

Originally Posted by Monk:
As for the issues brought up with Steam in this thread, I can only say I haven't even had the majority of them in the last two years. When Steam came out with Half-life 2 it was a mess, but since then the team behind the service has really upped their game. The only time steam seems to suck up CPU power is when it's first initializing, after that it's fine from my experiences. The Steam servers aren't nearly as unstable as they used to be. I don't think i've been kept from playing a game I wanted to play with Steam since the weekend hl2 was released. That's just me though, and my experiences do not equate to the experiences of others. Take the words as they are. :yes:

I was using Steam before that. The final release of steam is an excellent piece of software. Most people who have an issue with it I think used one of the beta versions. Which made Windows ME look stable by comparrison.

Originally Posted by :
Having no internet connection at all is like having a computer that cannot run the game. Got to upgrade and go with the times or suffer the consequences, as bad as it may sound.

My options are spend a few hundred dollars I don't have (for gear that may not work), or carry my tower across the yard. Which is covered in 10cm of ice. Concievably until late March.

so, I have no idea what steam is. Long story short, will I be able to buy Empire at a store and possibly have to set up an account on steam to install ETW? Also, I often go places without internet, after installation will I be able to still play singleplayer without an internet connection?

Originally Posted by peacemaker:
so, I have no idea what steam is. Long story short, will I be able to buy Empire at a store and possibly have to set up an account on steam to install ETW? Also, I often go places without internet, after installation will I be able to still play singleplayer without an internet connection?

yes i believe that is the general idea.

my understanding of steam is kinda just like an online server, u can buy games and download them legally of the server. and i think it also may help in match makin for multiplayer games although i honestly dont know that much about it so dont take my word.

From what they are saying it seems to me that you will have to make an account and register online probs with ur cd key to try and avoid piracy.

pls forgive me if im wrong :)

Cheers Knoddy

Originally Posted by peacemaker:
so, I have no idea what steam is. Long story short, will I be able to buy Empire at a store and possibly have to set up an account on steam to install ETW? Also, I often go places without internet, after installation will I be able to still play singleplayer without an internet connection?

From my understanding Steam will require a one-time activation of your cd-key, which occurs on installation. After that you will not require constant contact with the steam server if you wish to play offline.

out of curiosity i assume u have to install some form of steam client in order to validate ur copy and link it with ur steam account. will the game come with this steam client or will we have to download it. or is it all done online via web browser?

ive only encountered steam once at the net cafe i used to work at and it was a program on the PC's u just run it and pick which game u wanted to run.

cheers Knoddy

Originally Posted by knoddy:
out of curiosity i assume u have to install some form of steam client in order to validate ur copy and link it with ur steam account. will the game come with this steam client or will we have to download it. or is it all done online via web browser?

ive only encountered steam once at the net cafe i used to work at and it was a program on the PC's u just run it and pick which game u wanted to run.

cheers Knoddy

Games normally come with a Steam client out of box. It should install before Empire does.

Originally Posted by Monk:
As for the issues brought up with Steam in this thread, I can only say I haven't even had the majority of them in the last two years. When Steam came out with Half-life 2 it was a mess, but since then the team behind the service has really upped their game. The only time steam seems to suck up CPU power is when it's first initializing, after that it's fine from my experiences. The Steam servers aren't nearly as unstable as they used to be. I don't think i've been kept from playing a game I wanted to play with Steam since the weekend hl2 was released. That's just me though, and my experiences do not equate to the experiences of others. Take the words as they are. :yes:

The thread I referenced in my first post is dated Dec. 2008, and has complaints from Steam users about CPU utilization of 50% - 60% while Steam client is running, so it seems like there are still a lot of problems with Steam.

The fact that it will apparently be required to install the Steam client in order to install ETW indicates that Steam will be doing something other than just being used for "activation" of ETW. There are more straightforward ways of doing activation without mandating the install of third-party software. Probably it will be required to have the Steam client running in the background eating CPU while playing ETW.

And probably, setting up a Steam "account" will involve giving credit card and other information to Steam. ~:rolleyes:

Personally, I think it is kind of short-sighted of CA to partner with Steam, since Steam is owned by Valve, which is a competing game manufacturer. Even if Steam is paying CA some sort of spiff or kickback for every Steam account created in conjunction with an ETW purchase, the creation of a Steam account gives Valve the entire customer list for the Total War franchise. If Valve ever decides to market their own strategy game, they will have all of CA's customer information, including credit card information for all of CA's customers (which CA itself may not even have). Who knows what additional information will be obtained by Steam regarding usage patterns of CA's customers? What if Valve gets bought by EA or Microsoft? What will happen to this information?

Originally Posted by Martok:

Welcome to the Org, btw! ~:wave:

Thanks for the welcome! ~:wave:

Originally Posted by BeenPlayingSinceRTW:
The thread I referenced in my first post is dated Dec. 2008, and has complaints from Steam users about CPU utilization of 50% - 60% while Steam client is running, so it seems like there are still a lot of problems with Steam.

The fact that it will apparently be required to install the Steam client in order to install ETW indicates that Steam will be doing something other than just being used for "activation" of ETW. There are more straightforward ways of doing activation without mandating the install of third-party software. Probably it will be required to have the Steam client running in the background eating CPU while playing ETW.

And probably, setting up a Steam "account" will involve giving credit card and other information to Steam. ~:rolleyes:

Personally, I think it is kind of short-sighted of CA to partner with Steam, since Steam is owned by Valve, which is a competing game manufacturer. Even if Steam is paying CA some sort of spiff or kickback for every Steam account created in conjunction with an ETW purchase, the creation of a Steam account gives Valve the entire customer list for the Total War franchise. If Valve ever decides to market their own strategy game, they will have all of CA's customer information, including credit card information for all of CA's customers (which CA itself may not even have). Who knows what additional information will be obtained by Steam regarding usage patterns of CA's customers? What if Valve gets bought by EA or Microsoft? What will happen to this information?

CA are not the only company to partner with Steam. Many manafacturers have chose than route recently due to Steam being an excellent platform for online retail and multiplayer support.

You do not have to provide any kind of credit card, debit card or any other financial information to create an account. I don't even own a credit card, and I have an account.

Valve are not really a 'competing' game manafacturer. CA do not make FPS games, Valve do not make strategy games. This is unlikely to change in the forseeable future. Even if they did come into competition CA will not be at any paticular disadvantage because of using steam as a distribution platform.

As for 50% - 60% CPU usage? That is quite a figure, and one I can only see happening in extreme circumstances. I run steam constantly when playing game such as Half Life, and I doubt it uses even 5% of my CPU.

I can understand your concerns with Steam, but most of the problems you have given are based on paranoia rather than legitimate problems. Millions of people use Steam's service every day, and it wouldn't be that succesful if it wasn't doing something right.

Originally Posted by Sir Beane:
CA are not the only company to partner with Steam. Many manafacturers have chose than route recently due to Steam being an excellent platform for online retail and multiplayer support.

...so since everyone else is doing it it must be good? You're not serious are you?

Originally Posted by Sir Beane:
You do not have to provide any kind of credit card, debit card or any other financial information to create an account. I don't even own a credit card, and I have an account.

Well that's good to know, thanks.

Originally Posted by Sir Beane:
Valve are not really a 'competing' game manafacturer. CA do not make FPS games, Valve do not make strategy games. This is unlikely to change in the forseeable future. Even if they did come into competition CA will not be at any paticular disadvantage because of using steam as a distribution platform.

Sure, they only make FPS right now, but the game software business is very volatile. Once they take a look at the size and buying patterns of RTS gamers, they may decide to get into the business. You are dreaming if you don't think that CA giving away THEIR ENTIRE CUSTOMER LIST to a third-party company doesn't put them at a competitive disadvantage. Anytime Valve wants to get into the RTS business, they can do so easily because they will have a ready-made database of existing RTS gamers. Not only will they have a list, but they will know which gamers are hardcore players, which are popular with other gamers, which are the best players, etc. Valve will know more about CA's customers than CA does itself.

And what if Valve ever gets bought by Microsoft (who make AofE)?

CA are clearly only thinking about the short term and getting an extra few dollars per ETW customer, IMHO. And next year, where will ETW customers go for information about the new Total War version - to message boards like this one, or to Steam's user forums?

Originally Posted by Sir Beane:
As for 50% - 60% CPU usage? That is quite a figure, and one I can only see happening in extreme circumstances. I run steam constantly when playing game such as Half Life, and I doubt it uses even 5% of my CPU.

If you clicked through on the thread link I posted there were several different people posting about their own bad experiences with Steam CPU usage, including one guy with a 3ghz dual core having problems. That's not my number, it's what someone else posted on another board.

Originally Posted by Sir Beane:
Millions of people use Steam's service every day, and it wouldn't be that succesful if it wasn't doing something right.

Millions of people use Windows, that doesn't mean there aren't problems with it. What is your point? Just because something is popular doesn't mean it isn't problematic.

@ BeenPlayingSinceRTW

You make some good points.

Originally Posted by :
...so since everyone else is doing it it must be good? You're not serious are you?

Yes I am. Games companies are businesses. They are more often that not run by businessman as well as game developers. They have people who have been trained and are paid to make the company money. And that usually means that if enough companies are doing something there must be some advantage to it.

I'm not saying Steam is good because it is popular. I'm saying it is popular because it is good. When it first appeared Steam was an experiment that no one had to use. Now it has grown and is used by many millions of people, that doesn't happen to products with fundemental flaws.

Yes, Steam has it's problems. Pretty much everything does. Steam works well for the majority of people and for the majority of the time.

You can quote examples of people who have had a lot of problems with it, but there are also many people who have had no problems (myself included.)

This isn't really something I want to make a detailed argument for really. I'm not a Steam employee, and I'm not a representative of CA either, so I don't have a reason to defend either company's business decisions.

My point really is that Steam isn't all that bad, and it shouldn't be a reason to not purchase the game unless you have some kind of serious technical reason not to (for instance no internet connection).

Originally Posted by Sir Beane:
@ BeenPlayingSinceRTW

When it first appeared Steam was an experiment that no one had to use. Now it has grown and is used by many millions of people, that doesn't happen to products with fundemental flaws.

But why is Steam used by so many? Is it because they want to use it, or because they are forced to use it? (as CA is forcing ETW customers to use it)

Valve's strategy with Steam is the same as Microsoft's was with it's OS - to force-bundle the software with purchases of other products.

If Steam truly provided benefits to users, Valve wouldn't need to pay off game developers to bundle Steam with their products and force game buyers to install it and set up Steam "accounts". There's no need for every ETW buyer to set up accounts with Steam, when the multiplayer version of ETW will not even be in beta by the time the product is released (unless Steam is providing some sort of DRM)

Originally Posted by BeenPlayingSinceRTW:
But why is Steam used by so many? Is it because they want to use it, or because they are forced to use it? (as CA is forcing ETW customers to use it)

Valve's strategy with Steam is the same as Microsoft's was with it's OS - to force-bundle the software with purchases of other products.

If Steam truly provided benefits to users, Valve wouldn't need to pay off game developers to bundle Steam with their products and force game buyers to install it and set up Steam "accounts". There's no need for every ETW buyer to set up accounts with Steam, when the multiplayer version of ETW will not even be in beta by the time the product is released (unless Steam is providing some sort of DRM)

Steam is used by so many for two reasons.

1) It offers stable servers and useful matchmaking abilities for multiplayer games, as well as Steam achivements.

2) Companies like it because it provides unintrusive (mostly) DRM in the form of online activation.

Buyers of the game are forced to set up a steam account in order to stop them from being able to copy the game and give it to a friend. Steam has the advantage over other forms of DRM out there (such as Star-force) because it is not overly draconian and it does not spy on your PC.

Sega are making CA use DRM, so CA chose Steam, which also gives them a useful platform for multiplayer. Personally I think it was the best decision they could have made. I'm really just glad that CA didn't go with Star-force. If they had then we would have seen limited numbers of installs, spyware and rootkits and many other significant problems.

Originally Posted by Martok:
Empire will require you to install Steam, if only for the initial activation. After that, however, you can keep Steam in offline mode.

Can the game still be played if I un-install Steam after the first activation? Or is it required to be on the computer in offline mode? That might be a deal-breaker for some of us.

Originally Posted by Monk:
The industry expects you to have some kind of internet connection, just like many publishers ship games solely on DvDs now. It is an expectation that has been brought on by advances in hardware, the times, and the PC gaming community.

Of course the industry expects it, and it's not just for the DRM. It means they can hand off the bulk of "tech support" to user forums. They no longer have to wait until games are actually finished before release ("we'll fix it in a patch!"), and they no longer have to ship the game with a complete, in-depth manual.

Originally Posted by Sir Beane:
Millions of people use Steam's service every day, and it wouldn't be that succesful if it wasn't doing something right.

It's successful because millions of users have accepted that particular deal with the Devil, in order to play certain games. Not all of us will do that. Invasive DRM places an extra barrier to purchase in front of the customer. It's no longer -- "Is this game good, and will I enjoy it?". Now it's -- "Is the game good enough to accept invasive DRM along with it? What am I willing to put up with?" If game developers think they're not losing at least some potential sales from that, they're crazy.

Can the game still be played if I un-install Steam after the first activation? Or is it required to be on the computer in offline mode? That might be a deal-breaker for some of us. [/QUOTE]

Steam is required to be on the PC after the first activation. To play the game you boot up Steam in offline mode, and then run the game through it.

Originally Posted by Zenicetus:
Of course the industry expects it, and it's not just for the DRM. It means they can hand off the bulk of "tech support" to user forums. They no longer have to wait until games are actually finished before release ("we'll fix it in a patch!"), and they no longer have to ship the game with a complete, in-depth manual.

Releasing games unfinished and in some clases near unplayable has sadly been the way of PC gaming for a very long time now, depressing as that is. I think the industry expects most users to have an internet connection mostly because most users do have an internet connection. It's similar to all modern games requiring a user to have a decent graphics card or the correct amount of RAM.

Originally Posted by Zenicetus:
It's successful because millions of users have accepted that particular deal with the Devil, in order to play certain games. Not all of us will do that. Invasive DRM places an extra barrier to purchase in front of the customer. It's no longer -- "Is this game good, and will I enjoy it?". Now it's -- "Is the game good enough to accept invasive DRM along with it? What am I willing to put up with?" If game developers think they're not losing at least some potential sales from that, they're crazy.

It isn't just succesful because it has been forced on people. Like I said earlier Steam offers very stable and versatile mulitplayer capabilities. There are many people who would use it regardless of whether they had to or not.

And I agree with you about DRM. I hate it and I don't belive that it has any affect on piracy at all, whilst still inconveniencing users.

Sega however probably require that CA have some form of DRM on their games, so CA chose to use Steam. Steam is probably the least invasive form of DRM around at the moment (other than plain old CD keys) and it comes with strong multiplayer support to boot.

CA went with the lesser of many evils, which is more than many developers are choosing to do.

But in the end it is your choice. It would be a shame if you let Steam stop you from enjoying Empire, but no one can force you to purchase something you are apposed to.

And I'm going to say this again, an in depth discussion on DRM does not belong in this thread. I'm sure if we keep going off topic like this that the thread will eventually be locked or moved. Let's stick to direct questions about Steam, and leave the discussion of in-depth stuff for somewhere else.

Originally Posted by BeenPlayingSinceRTW:
And probably, setting up a Steam "account" will involve giving credit card and other information to Steam. ~:rolleyes:

Personally, I think it is kind of short-sighted of CA to partner with Steam, since Steam is owned by Valve, which is a competing game manufacturer. Even if Steam is paying CA some sort of spiff or kickback for every Steam account created in conjunction with an ETW purchase, the creation of a Steam account gives Valve the entire customer list for the Total War franchise. If Valve ever decides to market their own strategy game, they will have all of CA's customer information, including credit card information for all of CA's customers (which CA itself may not even have). Who knows what additional information will be obtained by Steam regarding usage patterns of CA's customers? What if Valve gets bought by EA or Microsoft? What will happen to this information?

I never gave any financial information to Steam in the account process. Nor have I been asked for it since I've had my account active. You can give them that stuff if you wish to buy games through them, but since I don't want to do that I'm not required to.

Also a lot of game companies have partnered with Steam. For example, Relic is offering the Dawn of War 2 beta through it. This is nothing new.

Originally Posted by BeenPlayingSinceRTW:
Sure, they only make FPS right now, but the game software business is very volatile. Once they take a look at the size and buying patterns of RTS gamers, they may decide to get into the business. You are dreaming if you don't think that CA giving away THEIR ENTIRE CUSTOMER LIST to a third-party company doesn't put them at a competitive disadvantage. Anytime Valve wants to get into the RTS business, they can do so easily because they will have a ready-made database of existing RTS gamers. Not only will they have a list, but they will know which gamers are hardcore players, which are popular with other gamers, which are the best players, etc. Valve will know more about CA's customers than CA does itself.

Dear friend, I think you are missing the point of human choice?

If a FPS company suddenly comes out into a field they have no experience of, just because we all may be using steam, does that mean every single one of us is going to go out and buy their new game?

They don't have a readymade database, they have a group of users that play Empire: Total War. Valve cannot go "Buy and play our RTS or we won't let you use software that isnt ours like steam."

Can Valve go through and see private details? You are kidding yourself, dear sir.

Let's all be calm.


I don't even like steam, just read my posts, but there is no evidence you have to keep the client running to play the game. So far, all CA posts have indicated you set up a account, log in once to register it/activate it, then you can close it and play offline. It's a one time online activation. So if you want you can keep steam running but you don't have to. It's no different then logging onto EA and registering a account and activating your game, except that this one requires it and has a program to do so.




That said.


I think to better understand steam and help the fan community a



DEMO



Should clearly be released :smash: