Multiculturalism is dead

Or at least, so thinks Merkel and the CDU/CSU.

Some interesting quotes:

"A recent survey showed that more than 30% of Germans believed Germany was "overrun by foreigners."

"Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German. "Anyone who does not immediately speak German", she said, "is not welcome"."

And so I don't have to go ahead and make the Godwin:

"Our correspondent adds that there also seems to be a new strident tone in the country, perhaps leading to less reticence about no-go-areas of the past."

Perhaps most significantly of all...

"Such recent strong anti-immigrant feelings from mainstream politicians come amid an anger in Germany about high unemployment..."

At least one good thing of all this could be that the ridiculous PC-ness that makes immigrants above criticism amongst any centre-right/left-wing politician may be coming to an end.

IMO one of the reasons for the lack of dialogue on this issue is that the lefties/liberals are far too sensitive and afraid to speak up on real problems, and so the only people that do are the far-right loonies, and then things get polarised and stupid and there is never any sensible discussion on the matter. Hopefully people can now start to get over their knee-jerk reactions.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

"Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German.

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I'm one of the three or four people on the planet who never had a problem with this kind of thinking. I wouldn't bar someone from entry into a country if they couldn't speak the native language, but it strikes me as astonishingly rude to not even try to learn it if you plan on living there.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Thoughts?

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Looking at the statements from Merkel and Seehofer you should keep the current polls in mind.

Our current administration (Conservatives + Liberals - hope that combination does not confuse our US patrons ~;)) is not looking very good in the polls, Socialists and Greens (especially the latter) are gaining ground again - so CDU and FDP are desperate for a topic that ight help them to recover.
Immigration is a welcome and classic topic for the CDU/CSU to turn to when the :daisy: hits the fan. Not surprising at all that they try to utilize the current rochus after Sarrazin published his book to gain a couple of percentage points.

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anger in Germany about high unemployment

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That statement strikes me as very odd (and somewhat uninformed) considering the current unemployment statistics and the trend.

NB: I would agree that learning the language is the minimum prerequisite when immigrating to another country - if you are not willing to take that step it tells a lot about the willingness to integrate. Nevertheless, the current discussion in Germany is too much about trying to get some easy points in the polls that about actually doing something constructive and tangible - hopefully this will change again.

I don't understand the whole "let's not learn the local language" thing. If I were relocated to Tunisia, I would consider learning Maghreb Arabic a top priority. If I hadn't learned it in a year or two, I would be very disappointed.

What is the logic (or even illogic) or not learning the most common local tongue? Can anyone explain this to me?

My thought is to look back through history. It shows that human cultures, once every 10 years have a minor panic about cultural and ethnic change, and once every 40 years have a major panic about it.

Go and take look. Any culture, any period, and it will be there. It's all rather tedious and unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

What is the logic (or even illogic) or not learning the most common local tongue? Can anyone explain this to me?

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It can be any number of factors. From a lack of money or time to pay for lessons or a lack of decent available lessons, right the way through to being lazy and never needing to because you can pay for others to do the translation stuff for you.

If people want to try and live in a foreign country without learning the language, then who really cares - that's their daft decision.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

If people want to try and live in a foreign country without learning the language, then who really cares - that's their daft decision.

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Well, it's not just daft; it's rude, as another poster stated. If I'm living and working in Germany, the least I can do is get passable in Deutsch. I don't need to be writing sonnets or sestinas, but I should be able to navigate the basics of life in the local lingo. That's so basic I don't even know how to argue the opposite side.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I don't understand the whole "let's not learn the local language" thing.

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It's slightly more complex than that. On the whole pretty much anyone will pick up the basics out of sheer necessity: chances are your life is too complex to define in point & grunt semantics, so you need the local lingo to help you out. But there are people who consider it not necessary or not sufficiently necessary to bother with actually learning the language. I guess because they tend to migrate to a place where they will be among other people of similar backgrounds who understand their native tongue well enough.

Anyway, Lemur, learning a language beyond the basics takes rather more than two years. Ten is nearer to the mark.

I have me doubts that there are really that many people as a percentage of any immigrant population who cannot speak whatever local language is required.

What is far more likely is that the ones who cannot speak the lingo for a variety of reasons are the one who we remember the most.


However I would agree that if they spend a long time there and don't learn the lingo then it is like given the locals the two fingers

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

I have me doubts that there are really that many people as a percentage of any immigrant population who cannot speak whatever local language is required.

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Well for some purely anecdotal evidence, even since I started my new job I've served a good few customers who could barely speak English. Doesn't bother me at all but it would surely help their own prospects a lot if they learned it.

Minimum wage dead end jobs have a lot to do with it too the owners like hiring foreigners even when the people who frequent the service find it annoying having to explain what a plate of spuds is.

The service jobs in pubs clubs shops etc employ these people and we deal with them every day reinforcing the idea none of them can speak the lingo.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Well for some purely anecdotal evidence, even since I started my new job I've served a good few customers who could barely speak English. Doesn't bother me at all but it would surely help their own prospects a lot if they learned it.

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There is a new factor at play here too the world has got far too small nowadays technology and modern communications allow us to live our own life separate from the vast majority of the people we live beside.

Hence even in smallish size towns in Ireland now there can be what everyone calls Polish Shops in reality there selling more than Polish stuff. You can come from Warsaw work as a housekeeper in a hotel eat your own food read Polish newspapers speak to a lot of people from home in the local Polish bar and with the sat dish on the roof you can watch the news from home even.

I don't really mind it so much i mean everyone gets homesick but I do feel these people are missing out on an entire experience of living in a different country and that is kind of sad.

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Anyway, Lemur, learning a language beyond the basics takes rather more than two years. Ten is nearer to the mark.

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But don't you also agree that it kinda depends on the relationship between your native language and the language spoken in the country you're living in? I mean, German would be a lot easier for the English to learn than say Russian, Arabic or Farsi. Same with Japanese and French, for example (the horror..).

I'm with Idaho, although I do believe that learning the language of the country you've moved to is something the government should enforce. Either fining or subsidizing people that respectively don't and do try to actively learning the language is very important. It'll help to close the gap between immigrants and the native population.

On the other hand, especially with the immigrant laborours, who do not wish to stay very long, speaking your own language is a natural thing; the farther people get removed from their roots, the stronger their resolve will be to get back to those roots. Language, religion(!), food and such things are all parts of their culture they've taken with them and wish to cling to as well.

I think the real death knell of multiculturalism is the backlash building over relativism between cultures and ideas even when one of the two is obviously moonbat crazy people try to draw an equivalence thats wrong.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

It can be any number of factors. From a lack of money or time to pay for lessons or a lack of decent available lessons, right the way through to being lazy and never needing to because you can pay for others to do the translation stuff for you.

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I think the courses should be free and probably are already, they're also not too lazy to go to the government to try and ask for money, which then takes ten times as long because the civil servants will have to try and extract all the necessary info out of them without a common language. And the same happens in shops as well, it's kinda annoying when five customers have to wait just because it takes me five minutes to solve a minor misunderstanding with someone who doesn't get my simplest explanations.
It doesn't happen often though, but I've had some truck driver lately who had to do some toll collect stuff or whatever, well, I think he did, he kept saying "vignette", I shook my head, told him we don't sell vignettes but he kept wanting one, spoke no german, no english, had no idea what to do with the toll collect machine (they offer several languages including polish, english, german etc.). In the end he seemed to have given up after I left him standing there serving other customers while I was wondering what kind of company sends a truck driver to Germany who cannot communicate with Germans at all???
Maybe he wasn't an immigrant but the problem is the same, no communication, no cooperation. :shrug:

Kinda odd as she tried to destroy Sarazin in a policor-craze a few weeks back. What caused this U-turn? His book being a huge hit of course. Pure politics she knows that the populist-right have enourmous electoral potential just like here so she takes a more popular stand. Very hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

I think the real death knell of multiculturalism is the backlash building over relativism between cultures and ideas even when one of the two is obviously moonbat crazy people try to draw an equivalence thats wrong.

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This.

Multiculturalism is dead? Meh, I'm sure it's the same all over the world. There's always a handful of people in every country who manage to shamefully publicise their zero-tolerance-integrate-100%-or-GTFO stance toward immigrants.

I'd always thought that the idea of multiculturalism is that it has multiple cultures. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Raz

I'd always thought that the idea of multiculturalism is that it has multiple cultures. :shrug:

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No it's an genuine ideoligy, the idea is to destroy nationalism with diversity, ultimately to prevent armed conflict. It's a real political theory.

Reality, importing votes

Well Merkel raised some basic points really. It isn't "multiculturalism" if your an immigrant living in a country, making no effort to speak the native language or to mix with the native population. In that case your basically a squatter, by choice.

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Originally Posted by Hax

But don't you also agree that it kinda depends on the relationship between your native language and the language spoken in the country you're living in? I mean, German would be a lot easier for the English to learn than say Russian, Arabic or Farsi. Same with Japanese and French, for example (the horror..).

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That's mainly the initial learning curve being less steep as you pick up the basics.

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

Well Merkel raised some basic points really. It isn't "multiculturalism" if your an immigrant living in a country, making no effort to speak the native language or to mix with the native population. In that case your basically a squatter, by choice.

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Thats actual an excellent point the immigrant bringing their own culture to wherever the locals imbibe bits of it but the immigrant also should reciprocate from whatever is the native culture.

To often I feel the whole debate on Multiculturalism is driven by people who wish to somehow legislate and control actual culture. How we could actually control culture is a bit beyond me I don't think you can but the quango types end up increasing the budgets they get by trying to implement it which is probably half the point anyway for them.

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

To often I feel the whole debate on Multiculturalism is driven by people who wish to somehow legislate and control actual culture. How we could actually control culture is a bit beyond me I don't think you can but the quango types end up increasing the budgets they get by trying to implement it which is probably half the point anyway for them.

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Oh really do they.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Oh really do they.

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Eh??

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Eh??

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You seemed to agree that the multicultist want to control

Then I think you meant to say

"Oh they do really" what you said put the inflection of your statement on me more than them.

I do believe the Multicultists think that way but I also think that the whole the foreigners are here not integrating is slightly overblown by the media.

The OP is not against a country having multiple cultures in it but the idea that is foisted on people that we must somehow create special spaces for culture in society.

This idea is really dangerous and I think it actually reinforces the differences and barriers between people.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

It can be any number of factors. From a lack of money or time to pay for lessons or a lack of decent available lessons, right the way through to being lazy and never needing to because you can pay for others to do the translation stuff for you.

If people want to try and live in a foreign country without learning the language, then who really cares - that's their daft decision.

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Seems that the locals actually care.

On topic, multiculturalism is indeed dead except in the head of a few hardcore leftist carebears. The bad news is that the other side of the coin (ie. "Integrate 100% or leave") doesn't work either in a democracy.

100% is arguably meaningless as of course there is no one way in any country.

But getting rid of leaflets in several languages / free translation services would be a good place to start.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

It's slightly more complex than that. On the whole pretty much anyone will pick up the basics out of sheer necessity: chances are your life is too complex to define in point & grunt semantics, so you need the local lingo to help you out. But there are people who consider it not necessary or not sufficiently necessary to bother with actually learning the language. I guess because they tend to migrate to a place where they will be among other people of similar backgrounds who understand their native tongue well enough.

Anyway, Lemur, learning a language beyond the basics takes rather more than two years. Ten is nearer to the mark.

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I don't think this is true, if you have a basic grounding in a language (very basic) and are then immersed in the culture and forced to speak it every day you will reach fluency somewhere between 6 months and a year. If this was not so we wouldn't be able to send in English students to France or Germany and dump them into the Universities there, which we do.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I don't think this is true, if you have a basic grounding in a language (very basic) and are then immersed in the culture and forced to speak it every day you will reach fluency somewhere between 6 months and a year. If this was not so we wouldn't be able to send in English students to France or Germany and dump them into the Universities there, which we do.

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For the immigrants who do not learn the language: they are not immersed in the culture, nor forced to speak the language every day. Otherwise they would learn it.
For the rest there is more to a language than being able to do shopping, day to day communication etc. You become fluent in a subset of it, but not necessarily competent with the whole framework of syntax, grammar, idiom etc.