A Discussion on the necessity of the Rebellion and portrayal of the Galactic Empire

I know it sounds nerdy/stupid, but hear me out. I was discussing this with my dad tonight and now I'm really interested and thinking about this.

Throughout the original Star Wars Trilogy, the Galactic Empire is portrayed as an evil, immoral, overall horrible force that must be destroyed by the Rebellion. However, is this the real case? It seems to me that neither side is inherently good or evil, with the only really bad part of the Empire being the Emperor and the Sith.

So, I'll start it off, and everyone please contribute everything you can. Keep it civil kindly.


So as I said, it is very subjective to say that the Empire is truly evil and the Rebellion truly good. It seems to me that the Empire is necessary to keep stability, security, good economy, and, to some extent, civil rights.

Stability.
The Empire is an enormous organization spanning (according to Wookiepedia) 1.5 million planets and 69 million colonies and protectorates. If left to their own agendas, the state of the galaxy would be total anarchy as a whole, with quadrillions or more sentient beings making constant war with one another and resulting in a continual state of primitive and static cultures.

Security.
As stated in this thread, we have examples from other canon associating a takeover by evil in order to do a greater good. Yes, how it is accomplished may be less-than-reputable, but is it not still the greater good and in the interest of the galaxy?
The same applies for the Empire and it's security. From without, there are countless numbers of unknown planets and confederations that would likely have a ball destroying a disunited galaxy. With the Empire and its incredibly strong military (larger, even, than the Republic's), the galaxy would be safe for, barring a rebellion from within, billions, even trillions of years.
From within, Crime would be soon entirely rooted out and put down with an iron fist. Yes, Imperial taxes are excruciating to traders, thus prompting smuggling and other illegal activities, but I believe that the taxes would level out and drop after the completion of the first Death Star, decreasing the need and demand for smuggling and crime. Either way, the Hutts and their crime empire would, in time, be destroyed and entirely wiped out. Petty crimes would likely continue to be treated with an iron fist, as they should be. I know it sounds crazy and idealistic, but I think with Imperial order brought in full force to the galaxy, crime could be, in time, phased out completely.


G2G, far, far more later.

I don't think the size of the empire matters, it was run as a republic prior to Palpatine's shenanigans. The evil comes from the centralized power the Sith Emperor possesses and uses to drive imperial policy.

Palpatine was the Star Wars equivalent of Chavez, slowly taking more power for himself and using that power to break down more legal barriers towards more power.

If you really want to talk about where Star Wars gets mucky in terms of good vs evil, let's discuss Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords and talk about how it was revealed that Revan simply pretended to fall to the Dark Side but instead controlled it to create his army in order to conquer the weak and corrupt republic to save the galaxy from the "true sith".

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Originally Posted by drone

I don't think the size of the empire matters, it was run as a republic prior to Palpatine's shenanigans. The evil comes from the centralized power the Sith Emperor possesses and uses to drive imperial policy.

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Simply going to add that the Galactic Republic was about 25000 years old, so hardly something unstable.

And the main oppression tool is a planet destroyer.

I think that classifies as an evil empire.

Revan choosed a dark side way and was the Republic's only hope against his own army. Grand plans that are complete failures in case of your death aren't really good plans.

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Originally Posted by Prussian Iron

1.5 million planets and 69 million colonies and protectorates.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

And the main oppression tool is a planet destroyer.

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This got me thinking...


The Death Star can vaporise an entire world in the blink of a second!
But....it needs to be real close. Right next to a planet. In the movie, Grand Moff Tarkin orders to 'set course for Alderaan'. It then takes them days to get there, perhaps longer. Let's say the Death Star can move from one planet to another every week. That's little over fifty planets destroyed every year then.

That's nothing! A mere fifty in 1.5 million mortality rate owing to 'killed by evil galactic empire'. Adding in colonies, a fifty in 70 million chance! In a galaxy far, far away and a long time into the future, on planet earth, one runs a risk of about 150-300 in 1.5 million, or 7000-14000 in 70 million, to die of a traffic accident. Including colonies, nearly 300 times higher mortalility rate for earth traffic than for Galactic Planet Destroyer! Yet these odds are considered acceptable. No reason at all to abolish traffic.

Why would anybody fear, never mind overthrow, a Galactic Empire who's main instrument of terror is a near negligable chance of dying from your planet being blown up?


I need to call George. He shall have to make new changes in the upcoming 3d version. I dunno, maybe six lasers shooting out of the Death Star in all directions or something, to make it more fearsome. Though he'll probably settle for 'Alderaan shot first'.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Why would anybody fear, never mind overthrow, a Galactic Empire who's main instrument of terror is a near negligable chance of dying from your planet being blown up?

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There's also a wast fleet capable of planetary bombardment. The planet destroyer is the main terror weapon, while the fleet is the more effective weapon (but it's old, so not as scary).

In general, the size of a huge galatic civilization is probably larger that what can be properly comprehended. A fleet of a few million capital war ships is small in a star wars universe.

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If you really want to talk about where Star Wars gets mucky in terms of good vs evil, let's discuss Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords and talk about how it was revealed that Revan simply pretended to fall to the Dark Side but instead controlled it to create his army in order to conquer the weak and corrupt republic to save the galaxy from the "true sith".

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Hahaha, I remember that. I love that game.

Also, Yuuzhan Vong everbody? Grand Moff Thrawn wondered if Palpatine's intention had been to form a strong force to be able to oppose the Vong invasion.

I have lost my nerd card since I have no idea what you are all talking about.

same...

This first (original) movie had examples of Empire's evil - the unnecessary murder of the Jawas and Luke's aunt and uncle. Also, in the conference room scene, Tarkin mentions that the governors will have free reign in their territories and that fear will keep the planetary systems in line. Fear as a tool is not something generally associated with the Good Guys. Then there is the killing of the Jedi - or at the very least the murder of the Jedi younglings. We didn't get all the details, but Lando wasn't too thrilled with the Imperial interference and Vader's further threats to his operation on Bespin. Lastly, if the soon-to-be-Emperor was such a saint, why was Jar Jar Binks not the first being killed during his power grab - even ahead of taking out the Jedi?

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

This first (original) movie had examples of Empire's evil - the unnecessary murder of the Jawas and Luke's aunt and uncle.

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That's just balls. The stormtroopers just wanted to question the Jawas about some stolen robots, and were doing the old routine of disbelieving the BS the Jawas were coming out with, probably culminating in banging them up in the clink for a week, when the Jawas made a run for it and forced them to shoot. If they'd just cooperated, they wouldn't have come to any harm, barring maybe a criminal record if the charges stick.

Also, the stormtroopers were called in to resolve a domestic dispute, where the Lars couple had been arguing, resulting in Owen receiving an injury to the side of the head. The stormtroopers did a good job of calming things down, advising Shmi to spend the night in the station while things cooled down. It's not their fault that, instead of packing for the night, Shmi took out a thermal detonator and blew up the farm.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Revan choosed a dark side way and was the Republic's only hope against his own army. Grand plans that are complete failures in case of your death aren't really good plans.

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The jedi's plan to rely on Revan to save them was a bad plan. Revan's plan to conquer the galaxy to save it from a future invasion wasn't. If he died, he knew that Malak would take over and continue the war. The Sith didn't rely on Revan, they relied on the Star Forge. Although Malak was actually a tool of the dark side, the point was that under the Sith the galaxy would still be inherently stronger from the more evil threat that lurked which possibly wanted the entire extinction of the galaxy. The perspective was trading one evil for another figuring that one allowed for it's own destruction while the other didn't. To quote one of the best conversations with Jolee Bindo:

Jolee: "Look, everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages. But tyrants and heroes rise and fall, and historians sort out the pieces."
Revan: "Are you saying what we're doing isn't important?"
Jolee: "Malak is a tyrant who should be stopped. If he conquers the galaxy, we're in for a couple of rough centuries. Eventually it'll come around again, but I'd rather not wait that long. So we do what we have to do and we try to stop the Sith. But don't start thinking this war, your war, is more important than any other war just because you're in it."

Imperial arguments are neatly summed up here (excuse the formatting, this website is nearly as old as Time Cube).

My own personal for/against arguments:

For:

• Okay, I hate the EU as much as anyone, but look at the amount of government changes we've had since the fall of the Empire. New Republic, Galactic Alliance, and whatever's in place now. This is all in the span of a little over 100 years, IIRC. Contrast this to the previous stability of well over 1,000 years.
• Jobs. Hey, somebody's gotta run that Imperial Navy.
• Efficiency. As with all autocracies, Palpatine delivers progress at the cost of comfort. However, progress is progress.

Against:

• Tarkin and the Tarkin Doctrine. Argue for efficiency all you want, but the Tarkin Doctrine and some of the actions undertaken in its name cross the line into sadism.
• Individual rights concerns. Ever notice how the Imperial Navy was staffed almost entirely by humans? Thrawn nonwithstanding, it was because Palpatine was a huge racist. One species prospered at the cost of thousands, if not millions of others.
• Unpopular rule. The penultimate scene in Return of the Jedi (the "revised" editions) show a montage of popular celebrations across several planets celebrating the fall of the Empire. This is obviously meant to imply that this sort of thing has happened galaxy-wide and proves that the Palpatinian Empire was, if nothing else, massively unpopular. At some point you have to have a government that the people do not outright hate.
• Superweapons. The Death Star was only one of Palpatine's many brainchildren. I mean, at some point, you have to say that all of this stuff is overkill if the Empire is merely only interested in stability and security and all of that good stuff.

"Empire" suggests a hereditary ruler, which means an inbred ruler.

More than you'd ever need to rebel...

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Imperial arguments are neatly summed up here (excuse the formatting, this website is nearly as old as Time Cube).

My own personal for/against arguments:

For:

• Okay, I hate the EU as much as anyone, but look at the amount of government changes we've had since the fall of the Empire. New Republic, Galactic Alliance, and whatever's in place now. This is all in the span of a little over 100 years, IIRC. Contrast this to the previous stability of well over 1,000 years.
• Jobs. Hey, somebody's gotta run that Imperial Navy.
• Efficiency. As with all autocracies, Palpatine delivers progress at the cost of comfort. However, progress is progress.

Against:

• Tarkin and the Tarkin Doctrine. Argue for efficiency all you want, but the Tarkin Doctrine and some of the actions undertaken in its name cross the line into sadism.
• Individual rights concerns. Ever notice how the Imperial Navy was staffed almost entirely by humans? Thrawn nonwithstanding, it was because Palpatine was a huge racist. One species prospered at the cost of thousands, if not millions of others.
• Unpopular rule. The penultimate scene in Return of the Jedi (the "revised" editions) show a montage of popular celebrations across several planets celebrating the fall of the Empire. This is obviously meant to imply that this sort of thing has happened galaxy-wide and proves that the Palpatinian Empire was, if nothing else, massively unpopular. At some point you have to have a government that the people do not outright hate.
• Superweapons. The Death Star was only one of Palpatine's many brainchildren. I mean, at some point, you have to say that all of this stuff is overkill if the Empire is merely only interested in stability and security and all of that good stuff.

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Your arguments against undermine the arguments for. The rampant racism of Palpatine meant the empire was probably actually extremely inefficient for not utilizing the other species properly. In fact, the racism directly impacted efficiency by breeding traitorous aliens into joining rebel causes. It also meant that inherently those being discriminated against would hate the empire.

The fact that after the empire fell there was chaos is not a pro for keeping the empire but a con. The republic lasted thousands of years because of it's structure of peaceful transfer of power. By Palpatine implementing a new empire by force, he broke the cycle and instituted a new one for people to follow (power through violence). Otherwise, people who started up wars in the EU might have otherwise been peacefully whining for decades in the galactic Senate.

As for jobs, I doubt there was any rampant unemployment problems going on. Otherwise the smart thing for the Trade Federation and the Republic would have been to just recruit them. Instead we get robot made robots on one side and clones on the other made by a few Kaminos. From what I remember the only reason clones were abandoned by Palpatine was due to loyalty issues and not because there was too many people, not enough jobs.

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Originally Posted by Prussian Iron

It seems to me that the Empire is necessary to keep stability, security, good economy, and, to some extent, civil rights.

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No more mind probes for you. :grin:

Did you forget the thousand generations of peace and justice before the Dark Times, before the Empire?

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Originally Posted by CBR

No more mind probes for you. :grin:

Did you forget the thousand generations of peace and justice before the Dark Times, before the Empire?

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Justice? Perhaps. Peace? Nope.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Justice? Perhaps. Peace? Nope.

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Obiwan said so!

But he also told Luke that his father had been killed by Darth Vader.

The lies are strong in that one. :no:

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Originally Posted by Hax

But he also told Luke that his father had been killed by Darth Vader.

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So what? He could hardly tell the truth at that point as Luke was not prepared. The stakes were rather high. It is nothing compared to the lies and ambitions we see from Tarkin, Vader or the Emperor himself is it? It was not Obiwan who blew up a peaceful planet, or did Lucas make a new version where Alderaan shot first?

I was gonna write a reply....then I realized I didn´t need to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6lzEhoXads

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0VZj-85E5o

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Originally Posted by CBR

So what? He could hardly tell the truth at that point as Luke was not prepared. The stakes were rather high. It is nothing compared to the lies and ambitions we see from Tarkin, Vader or the Emperor himself is it? It was not Obiwan who blew up a peaceful planet, or did Lucas make a new version where Alderaan shot first?

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I thought the point was that Darth Vader did effectively kill Luke's father, as, in embracing the dark side to become Darth Vader, Anakin became someone else and renounced his former life and hence disowned his son.

I am personaly very glad that Hollywood is broadly liberal. If it was instead controlled by Tea party types and pedalled their values, I'd have far less tolerance for American films.

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Originally Posted by alh_p

I thought the point was that Darth Vader did effectively kill Luke's father, as, in embracing the dark side to become Darth Vader, Anakin became someone else and renounced his former life and hence disowned his son.

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Yeah, Obi Wan says it was the truth "from a certain point of view". So technically I guess he did not lie but neither did he tell everything.

He also left out the bit about Leia. There could have been some nasty brother-sister action if Leia hadn't preferred the bad boy instead. So maybe he should have told Luke about that...

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

That's just balls. The stormtroopers just wanted to question the Jawas about some stolen robots, and were doing the old routine of disbelieving the BS the Jawas were coming out with, probably culminating in banging them up in the clink for a week, when the Jawas made a run for it and forced them to shoot. If they'd just cooperated, they wouldn't have come to any harm, barring maybe a criminal record if the charges stick.

Also, the stormtroopers were called in to resolve a domestic dispute, where the Lars couple had been arguing, resulting in Owen receiving an injury to the side of the head. The stormtroopers did a good job of calming things down, advising Shmi to spend the night in the station while things cooled down. It's not their fault that, instead of packing for the night, Shmi took out a thermal detonator and blew up the farm.

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I Love You.


And anyway, let's stay away from non-Imperial political talk. The ethics behind Obi-Wan's semi-lie to Luke are completely unrelated.

So basically the generally main anti-Empire sentiment appears to be the violence/super weapons. As we have seen many, many times in our own world (most recently the wars in the Middle East), Soldiers tend to get a little antsy sometimes, and while they may at times commit atrocities, the media tends to far overemphasize on these incidents.

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Originally Posted by Prussian Iron

As we have seen many, many times in our own world (most recently the wars in the Middle East), Soldiers tend to get a little antsy sometimes, and while they may at times commit atrocities, the media tends to far overemphasize on these incidents.

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No. The rule to the exception is that soldiers commit atrocities. These then remain mostly underreported because the more brutal the regime, the more likely it is that the press is firmly repressed too.


Dictatorships exists because too many people fall for their promise of law and order, and reason away the atrocities. If one digs the order and stability of Galactic Empires, then become a commie and move to North Korea - it's the nearest thing on earth to the Galactic Empire, complete with some bizarre Sith Lords at the top.

However one big fact you are ignoring is that the populace creates the need for Imperial Occupation. If you recall, at the Congress of Vienna, France originally had very fair terms; No occupation forces and no reparations were going to be required. Napoleon came back and lost Waterloo, and France was then forced to pay huge amounts of reparations to Europe, as well as being occupied by foreign nations until such debt was paid.

Now, based on this, so long as those under Imperial rule will simply refrain from Rebellion or non-cooperation with the Empire, there should be no need for heavy occupation and thus far fewer atrocities comitted.


I think at the very beginning, the Empire and its policies are probably flawed for the situation, but given another 20-40 years and the Empire would have total subjugation and thus peace from within. After a solid foundation and stability is established, the Empire can turn its eye to other things, such as the reduction of crime and stability of economy I described above.

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Originally Posted by Prussian Iron

So basically the generally main anti-Empire sentiment appears to be the violence/super weapons. As we have seen many, many times in our own world (most recently the wars in the Middle East), Soldiers tend to get a little antsy sometimes, and while they may at times commit atrocities, the media tends to far overemphasize on these incidents.

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One thing is to have a super weapon, another thing is how it is used. Blowing up Alderaan was not because Tarkin was "a little antsy". That act, along with the Emperor dissolving the Imperial Senate, sets up the Empire to be a dictatorship that use total destruction at whim. Most people would consider that evil.

You Imperials got me thinking. We know from the movies that a stormtrooper could not hit the broadside of a barn door from 3 inches. Now in the Jawa incident Obi-wan points out the the precision of the shots and linking such precision to the stormtroopers - which we movie-goers can now recognize as a lie. Seems that only a Jedi could shoot with that much precision, and there seems to be only one Jedi around...a Jedi who knows that Luke's aunt and uncle are the one thing keeping Luke from galavanting across the galaxy with him. Old Ben Kenobi ain't so crazy after all...

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

You Imperials got me thinking. We know from the movies that a stormtrooper could not hit the broadside of a barn door from 3 inches. Now in the Jawa incident Obi-wan points out the the precision of the shots and linking such precision to the stormtroopers - which we movie-goers can now recognize as a lie. Seems that only a Jedi could shoot with that much precision, and there seems to be only one Jedi around...a Jedi who knows that Luke's aunt and uncle are the one thing keeping Luke from galavanting across the galaxy with him. Old Ben Kenobi ain't so crazy after all...

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Or maybe Lucas shows how he didn't know how to write a proper script since 1975.