Looting, cohesion & gun control

Louisiana Governor Blanco has announced that new National Guard troops are taking up stations in parts of New Orleans and that their M-16's are 'locked and loaded'. These troops apparently include 300 soldiers from the Arkansas National Guard who are 'fresh in from Iraq' and 'more than willing to kill if necessary'.

There will be sighs of relief from the 'it's-about-time'ers', but to me this sounds like a signal to the outside world more than to the looters, who are probably not listening to news reports anyway or only incidentally. And it would seem that these combat troops will have great trouble distinguishing between between looters and people who 'steal' in order to stay alive. Technically, the difference has now become very small and 'righteous looters' could soon be fighting Arkansas crack troops in the streets of New Orleans.

What are we to make of a situation where a government is forced to send in crack combat troops to control rescue operations and protect rescue workers from armed gangs and frustrated citizens taking potshots at them?

Until now I have refrained from comments about American gun control and gun culture, but it becomes more difficult by the day. Guns don't kill rescue workers, but their availability is a real plague on top of all the other issues in this situation.

As I said elsewhere, there is a marked difference between the reaction of the Turkish people to the August 1999 Izmit earthquake which destroyed entire cities and regions and that of Americans in the face of this New Orleans disaster. There was very little looting going on in Turkey and there were almost no fights between security forces and citizens. All efforts seemed to be geared toward rescuing and supporting the victims. It may have been quite important in this respect that the Turkish government immediately deployed 50.000 troops to prevent looting and black-marketeering as well as support the rescue operations. But I wonder if that explains everything. From what I hear from Turkish friends there was more cohesion than ever before in Turkish society, even between Turks and Kurds, not less.

Anyway, what do I know about New Orleans other than some things I saw on a visit years ago? Any Americans ready to face the gun control music at this stage?

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Any Americans ready to face the gun control music at this stage?

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Hi Adrian,

I was thinking along your line when I saw the news yesterday.
I assume that the pro-gun people won't change their stance.
And why should they? (I'm trying to play Devil's advocate here)
This is the catastrophe they waited for to prove that it is safer to be armed.
After all you wouldn't want to be unarmed when your house is being looted
or someone trys to rob you, would you? The guys shooting at the helicopters?
Criminals, of course. They even would have guns even when nobody else did.
I don't believe this will change anything.

From our European perspective this is absolutely unbelievable.
I can't imagine that anything similar could happen in the Netherlands, should they be flooded someday. (a large part of it lies under sea-level)

:bow:

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Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul

I can't imagine that anything similar could happen in the Netherlands, should they be flooded someday. (a large part of it lies under sea-level)

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We had a major flood risk in 1995. It was considered serious enough to justify mass evacuation. In a couple days 250,000 people, 300,000 cattle, a million pigs and millions of poultry birds were moved from an area bounded by the Lower Rhine, the Waal and the Maas. As it turned out, the flood didn't happen. In the (deserted) evacuation areas only some police patrolled, no army. There was no looting, no shooting.

But then, we are really a midget country compared to the United States. Everything is ten times bigger there, and not just fridges...

The reason there sending the troops is because there are now armed gangs committing acts of rape looting and in some cases murder. and I believe the troops will be able to tell the deference. As for everything thats going on down there its really not a reflection on americas culture if this happened say in Boston the looting would be allot less. There are 2 main reasons why looting is happening. The people who stayed behind are the poorest in america and many really don't have any sense of morals and they believe this is there chance to get back at the man so to speak and bad for every 1 looter there are probaly 10 people just trying to get out. As for gun control well if Im in NO and there armed gangs (90% of whom probaly purchased there weapons illegally) trying to break in to my home I should be armed as well

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

We had a major flood risk in 1995. It was considered serious enough to justify mass evacuation. In a couple days 250,000 people, 300,000 cattle, a million pigs and millions of poultry birds were moved from an area bounded by the Lower Rhine, the Waal and the Maas. As it turned out, the flood didn't happen. In the (deserted) evacuation areas only some police patrolled, no army.

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Ah, interesting. I had no idea, couldn't remember.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

There was no looting, no shooting.
But then, we are really a midget country compared to the United States. Everything is ten times bigger there, and not just fridges...

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Do you argue that it is a matter of size? (no pun intended)
I'd claim that it is a matter of mentality and culture.

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

There are 2 main reasons why looting is happening. The people who stayed behind are the poorest in america and many really don't have any sense of morals and they believe this is there chance to get back at the man so to speak (..)

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Point taken. So social cohesion was much less in New Orleans than in many other American cities to begin with.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Louisiana Governor Blanco has announced that new National Guard troops are taking up stations in parts of New Orleans and that their M-16's are 'locked and loaded'. These troops apparently include 300 soldiers from the Arkansas National Guard who are 'fresh in from Iraq' and 'more than willing to kill if necessary'.

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Is that a quote from the governor or is it embilisment on your part.

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There will be sighs of relief from the 'it's-about-time'ers', but to me this sounds like a signal to the outside world more than to the looters, who are probably not listening to news reports anyway or only incidentally. And it would seem that these combat troops will have great trouble distinguishing between between looters and people who 'steal' in order to stay alive. Technically, the difference has now become very small and 'righteous looters' could soon be fighting Arkansas crack troops in the streets of New Orleans.

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Technically speaking any looting is consider looting - be it for survival or profit. Since you used the word technically - one needs to be sure of thier word use.

From Webster's

a : to plunder or sack in war b : to rob especially on a large scale and usually by violence or corruption
2 : to seize and carry away by force especially in war
intransitive senses : to engage in robbing or plundering especially in war

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What are we to make of a situation where a government is forced to send in crack combat troops to control rescue operations and protect rescue workers from armed gangs and frustrated citizens taking potshots at them?

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That the government of several levels screwed up

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Until now I have refrained from comments about American gun control and gun culture, but it becomes more difficult by the day. Guns don't kill rescue workers, but their availability is a real plague on top of all the other issues in this situation.

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Gun control does not keep weapons out of the hands of people who are going to use them for criminal purposes.

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As I said elsewhere, there is a marked difference between the reaction of the Turkish people to the August 1999 Izmit earthquake which destroyed entire cities and regions and that of Americans in the face of this New Orleans disaster. There was very little looting going on in Turkey and there were almost no fights between security forces and citizens. All efforts seemed to be geared toward rescuing and supporting the victims. It may have been quite important in this respect that the Turkish government immediately deployed 50.000 troops to prevent looting and black-marketeering as well as support the rescue operations. But I wonder if that explains everything. From what I hear from Turkish friends there was more cohesion than ever before in Turkish society, even between Turks and Kurds, not less.

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Yep - however again shall I mention again that in the United States and several of the laws passed by Congress prevent such an action being done by the Federal Government here. I am sure some changes are coming to the Federal response system based upon this crisis.

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Anyway, what do I know about New Orleans other than some things I saw on a visit years ago? Any Americans ready to face the gun control music at this stage?

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Not at all - it seems again that weapons are being used by individuals who are either faced with desperation (to protect themselves in some aspects) or from those who have criminal intentions.

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Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul

Do you argue that it is a matter of size? (no pun intended)

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Yeah. If we had to evacuate an area the size of Northern France, we would have needed more than a few police patrols with a bull horn.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Point taken. So social cohesion was much less in New Orleans than in many other American cities to begin with.

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not as whole but most of the people that were left behind have nothing to begin with and social cohesion means nothing when these people see free things. sad really :embarassed:

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Point taken. So social cohesion was much less in New Orleans than in many other American cities to begin with.

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Lets put it this way - the city is somewhere close to 75% black when I last saw a racial makeup statistic.

It has a major history of corruption in the city law enforcement and even in its administration.

There is still a lot of racial tension between the whites and the blacks. From my experience its done at all levels of the society - not only the rich but the poor.

And coupled with the emotions of likely feeling abandoned by their government (and I do mean all three levels of government - city, state, and federal) which I would have to agree with them - some would have a tendency to go to an extreme in a crisis situation like they are facing.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Yeah. If we had to evacuate an area the size of Northern France, we would have needed more than a few police patrols with a bull horn.

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I agree. The number of people and the size of the area are an important factor.
Evacuating a third of Germany wouldn't be easy, too.
Of course we would need police and maybe even the BGS
but I doubt that we would see much armed looting in the process.
But then again, I don't trust my fellow citizens to be very relaxed about such a disaster.
:bow:

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Is that a quote from the governor or is it embilisment on your part.

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From Reuters:

"These troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded," Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said on Thursday night of one group of 300 National Guard troops being deployed here after recent duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."

I know 50.000 troops on hte ground could have made a huge difference, as it probably did in Turkey even though nearly all of them were employed in rescue and logistics operations there and practically none in policing, let alone 'combat'.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

From Reuters:

"These troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded," Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said on Thursday night of one group of 300 National Guard troops being deployed here after recent duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."

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So a little emblishment (SP) on your part it seems - that is a far cry from the orginal statement of

'more than willing to kill if necessary'

Put a nice attempt at spin toward your point.

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I know 50.000 troops on hte ground could have made a huge difference, as it probably did in Turkey even though nearly all of them were employed in rescue and logistics operations there and practically none in policing, let alone 'combat'.

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Considering that Lousiana has a enhanced Seperate Infantry Brigade (Mechinazed) the governor of the state had the option of activiting the Guard to prepare for the necessity of immediate response.

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

not as whole but most of the people that were left behind have nothing to begin with and social cohesion means nothing when these people see free things. sad really :embarassed:

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Well I guess that figures. And maybe the behaviour of looters and armed gangs wouldn't be much different from their usual routine, so what we are witnessing is not a breakdown in cohesion, just a breakdown in public order.

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Gun control does not keep weapons out of the hands of people who are going to use them for criminal purposes.

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Well, that's precisely the point. In France, and the same could be said in Germany or Spain I think, if someone attack me, there's always a (small) chance that I could kick his ass with a punch in the nose. Most of the gang do *not* have gun, except in a few places where no one (and not even the police forces) would go. I guess that's a cultural difference, but I still find it hard to believe the pro gun arguments.

As for what's happening in New Orleans, I think there are some factors that should be taken into consideration. From what I say on TV, almost all looters (I'd say among the line of 80%) are black people. I think there would be as much looting if some catastroph happened in a French city with 80% of black/muslim/rather poor population.

Btw, the images I see on TV are unbelievable : cops and gangs looting the same supermarkets, old people and babies almost dying because of the lack of supplies...

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Originally Posted by Redleg

So a little emblishment (SP) on your part it seems - that is a far cry from the orginal statement of 'more than willing to kill if necessary'. Put a nice attempt at spin toward your point.

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This is nit-picking at its worst, Redleg. I try to come to grips with a situation in New Orleans that largely eludes me. My choice of words may not be perfect, but I am not, I repeat not, putting a 'nice spin' on other peoples' misery.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

This is nit-picking at its worst, Redleg.

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Your choice of words to make a point was taking the governor's statement out of context. However if you chose to believe I am just nit-picking - that is fine but ask yourself this question.

'more than willing to kill if necessary'

or did she state

These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."



One statement implies that the soldiers are willing to kill their fellow citizens

the other states that they know how to fight and she suspects that they just might have to.

Notice the difference. Your making an assumpting that soldiers of the United States are more then willing to kill their fellow citizens - something that I doubt they are willing to do. Not nit-picking at all - but correcting your attempt use a diaster and spin it into an arguement for gun control.

Oh by the way I must correct myself

Considering that Lousiana has a enhanced Seperate Infantry Brigade (Mechinazed) the governor of the state had the option of activiting the Guard to prepare for the necessity of immediate response

It seems that the state does not have their Seperate Infantry Brigade - since its been deployed to Iraq. Which makes it a even bigger failure in coordination and response by not only the state - but the Federal Government since the immediate first response ability of the state was cut roughly in half when the unit was deployed to Iraq

My reactions to what I've read about the situation (sniping of evacuating hospitals, raping of children, street warfare)?

1) The US is not a civilized nation. It's barbaric.

2) We have created societies where psychopaths are not lone anomolies, but widespread...and we supplied them with a city full of guns in abondoned homes and department stores.

3) In actuality, there are few times when I person defending their business or home uses a gun successully to thwart a looter. Most likely the person will be killed themselves by the looter, they will kill inocent people in the crossfire, or they will shoot a looter who is a hungry, exhausted woman trying to feed her baby in a city with no operating stores. They ought to be out of the disaster area seeking aid, not standing waist-deep in water waiting to shoot a looter of water-damaged merchandise.

4) Wouldn't it be nice if the soldiers and supplies in Iraq were here on their way to the people of the hurricane-striken area? We cause chaos in another country and sap our resources for helping people in our own.

Americans should be seriously ashamed of the US. Bush should be imprisoned.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

My reactions to what I've read about the situation (sniping of evacuating hospitals, raping of children, street warfare)?

1) The US is not a civilized nation. It's barbaric.

2) We have created societies where psychopaths are not lone anomolies, but widespread...and we supplied them with a city full of guns in abondoned homes and department stores.

3) In actuality, there are few times when I person defending their business or home uses a gun successully to thwart a looter. Most likely the person will be killed themselves by the looter, they will kill inocent people in the crossfire, or they will shoot a looter who is a hungry, exhausted woman trying to feed her baby in a city with no operating stores. They ought to be out of the disaster area seeking aid, not standing waist-deep in water waiting to shoot a looter of water-damaged merchandise.

4) Wouldn't it be nice if the soldiers and supplies in Iraq were here on their way to the people of the hurricane-striken area? We cause chaos in another country and sap our resources for helping people in our own.

Americans should be seriously ashamed of the US. Bush should be imprisoned.

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I'm only ashamed that people like yourself are living in America.

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Gun control does not keep weapons out of the hands of people who are going to use them for criminal purposes.

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As Meneldil points out, this is flat not true. We have very tight, maybe too tight, gun control in the UK. Far far fewer of our criminals carry guns than in the states. Of course, you can believe those facts are unconnected if you like...

I do not belittle the difficulty of evacuating a city of, what is it, about a million people. If we had to evacute Birmingham, I dare say some people would behave badly and there might be some looting. The difference is they would not be able to shoot at helicopters and it wouldn't require troops with assault rifles to restore order.

On the relief effort generally, I am also almost reaching the end of the "oh well its all very difficult you have to make allowances" stage and almost at the "Is it just me or is this so called rescue and relief effort a complete and utter shambles".

I'm also thinking that these images of very poor black people wading through sewage and begging for food, water, and someone to restore order aren't exactly going to help race relations in the US...especially taken with the talk that all their homes may need to be bulldozed and then not rebuilt.

Tachikaze,
Do you have any data to support your hypothesis in point #3 or is it speculation on your part?

I am ashamed of President Bush's handling of this crisis, but he's halfway down a very long list. In order to say he ought to be in jail, so should the director of FEMA, the governor of Louisiana, whoever is responsible for emergency services for the state of Louisiana, the Mayor of New Orleans, the police commissioner & chief for New Orleans, whoever is responsible within New Orleans itself for emergency evacuations, and a whole hatful of other people that have betrayed the trust of their offices.

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I am ashamed of President Bush's handling of this crisis. But in order to say he ought to be in jail, so should the director of FEMA, the governor of Louisiana, whoever is responsible for emergency services for the state of Louisiana, the Mayor of New Orleans, the police commissioner & chief for New Orleans, whoever is responsible within New Orleans itself for emergency evacuations, and a whole hatful of other people that have betrayed the trust of their offices.

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Well DC its your country but I'd say, after following due process of course, that looks about right to me.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Tachikaze,
Do you have any data to support your hypothesis in point #3 or is it speculation on your part?

I am ashamed of President Bush's handling of this crisis. But in order to say he ought to be in jail, so should the director of FEMA, the governor of Louisiana, whoever is responsible for emergency services for the state of Louisiana, the Mayor of New Orleans, the police commissioner & chief for New Orleans, whoever is responsible within New Orleans itself for emergency evacuations, and a whole hatful of other people that have betrayed the trust of their offices.

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You could also have the arguement that the people that remained in the city after they were ORDERED to leave could be imprisoned as well. Personnal responsibility is in order as well...

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Bush should be imprisoned.

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Even I find that to be a little extreme. The problems here aren't just caused by Bush. It is a failure on the part of a lax administration, an area unused to storms, and a nation already involved in a war of occupation. Bush may - and I stress may - need to be reprimanded, but I personally think that more attention should be placed on saving the people in the disaster areas.

Besides, how can you stay angry at a cute little muppet like Bush?
(and thus begins the Righty crapstorm... better run through the jungle- whoa, don't look back!)

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Bush should be imprisoned.

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Let's start lower and work our way up. We don't want to overload the jails with too many prisoners. There are plenty of criminals in the White House, probably too many for one trip; and we need the buses in Louisiana.

Seeing them frog-marched in handcuffs out of where they've been squatting for the last 5 years sure would be an entertaining sight, though:

http://www.bushwatch.net/unknown-1.jpg

You make a very good point EA. I live in North Carolina which is 40% black, 40% white & 20% other. Trust me, it has not gone unnoticed by anybody what color the people in the Superdome are.

Honestly, you make some very good points about gun control in light of the situation. But let me just ask you this. Why haven't the media published a single story of somebody defending themselves from a looting mob through the legal & intended use of a firearm? Why aren't there any statistics published? Do you all really believe that anyone with a gun in the city of New Orleans immediately turned to mayhem? If not, why do we only hear one side of the story? Could it be that our media has a pre-planned story to tell? Hmm... ~:confused:

All I want to know is what took so long for them to do this?
http://boortz.com/images/1906_shoot_looters.jpg

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Let's take a look inside the Super Dome. They wouldn't let the media in. Why? Did they know what was going to happen there. You can't walk around in the Super Dome at night because you'll step in human waste. Women are being dragged into restrooms and raped. Fires are being started. Gunshots have been reported. Fights are commonplace. On day one helicopters could have landed outside the Superdome loaded with armed National Guardsmen with orders to treat predators harshly. Didn't happen. They searched everyone before they entered the Super Dome. No guns allowed. This left innocent people unable to defend themselves. Does it sound trite to say that an armed society is a polite society? Would the predators have been so eager to drag women off to rape them in the bathrooms if they thought that there was someone nearby with a gun that would step in?

We are reaping the results of a liberal culture that seeks to make excuses for violence and criminal activity.

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LINK

I believe many of these looters have stayed behind just for the purpose of looting.

Gawain, here is what your guy Boortz has been doing all week:

Yesterday afternoon and last evening I did what I have been doing most of the week ... I sat in front of the television watching the devastation and the dual nature of man unfold in New Orleans and the Mississippi Gulf coast.

And now he tells us exactly what went down in that Dome in NO, even though 'no media were allowed in' and Boortz himself wasn't anywhere near the place? That is about as selfdefeating as a blog can get.

By the way, I saw reports from local journalists and electronic media coming right from the heart of that dome this week. CNN had some of them. People behaved decently throughout the first 48 hours. It was only when the frustration, the dirt and the shortages made themselves felt that the veneer of civilisation peeled away.

Maybe Boortz has been watching the wrong channel all week? :mellow:

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We are reaping the results of a liberal culture that seeks to make excuses for violence and criminal activity.

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Weren't you people telling the leftists earlier not to bring politics into this?

You righties and the Democrats are all hypocrites. I am sick and tired of this. I am going to take a leave of absence from the backroom until this Katrina stuff blows over.

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You righties and the Democrats are all hypocrites

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Thats why I started the hypocrisy thread ~D