dropping rocks...ridiculous things in battle

Playing as the Byzantines, I recently managed to kill a Sicilian king during a fight for Naples by dropping a catapult stone on his head...lucky me, i thought.
Last night, the French invaded Naples as well, with a jaw-dropping (by my standards anyway...) 7,500 men. Ah well, says I, i never liked Naples much anyway. Too hot.
My 800-odd Byzantines did have the significant advantage of being led by a 9-star Jedi Master with the Field Defence Specialist virtue, and no unit had a valour rating of less than 5, but even so, fatigue would surely win eventually.

Found a nice hill to sit on, lined up my 4 catapults, unfurled the Curious Purple Standard of Byzantium and passed round the pre-fight humous. Catapults are a battlefield affectation of mine that i can't get rid of, people say they're a bit rubbish, you'd be better off bringing more archers or something. Sure enough, vast hordes of French poured on...handily marching in column. Since my artillery was all valour 5, their first volley was dead on. And their second. And nearly all subsequent volleys too. Horrid carnage among the tight-packed French, feudal sergeants lying squashed everywhere, yet still they advance.
It looks grim...i'm going to have my armour all dirty and everything, maybe even use some arrows. And then...'the enemy king has been slain!' growls Sean Pertwee's voice. They've done it again! All glory to the rock-chucking guys.

The rest of the battle was a succession of routs that went on and on and on...final enemy casualties; 1129 killed, 3133 captured. My own casualties were a laughable 153 dead, and my two Pronoi Allaigion captured over 700 enemy apiece.
Now, this isn't intended as a 'I'm great, look what i did' piece...low morale armies, once the leader is dead and the first wave seen off, are not really difficult to chase off if your troops are fresh. The sheer scale of the French effort, the crushing ease of their defeat and most of all the joy of artillery taking out the enemy king with a big rock on the head for the second straight battle just struck me as worth writing about...I'd love to hear about battles of similar ridiculousness. apologies for the length of this post!

Thats why i dont like to use catapult things.
They tend to make the game a bit to easy cos the AI Really dosent understand its dying when its being hit by ranged units.

This is even More true with NTW.
With the 1st Cannon you can build bing a HIGHLY mobile howitzer.
That thing can moove like any other unit, so no worrys about needing to Make sure you have it pointing the right way.
It alos Showers about 5 bolders on to the selected unit from A Really impressive distance,
And even when its a totaly basic off the shelf moddle. Its near enough 100% accurate.

I really beleve the AI is Oblivious to Atilary attacks,

For instance in NTW. i simply build 3 howitzers. a couple of mounted horse rifle guys.
and a few infantry units 2 or so.

And thats basically all you need to Win the game.

No matter Howmany enemy units arive on the battel feild, So long as My howitzers are As far away from them as i can be and Still hit them
They will all die.

And Attacking the AI is even worse,
Remember I said there oblivious to atilary attacks?
This is why i say that.

the Ai Are defening and i arive with my 3 howitzers 2 infantry units and 2 horse units,
I set up my howitzers Place my infantry infront of them.
and my horses on there flanks.

I then tell 1 howitzer to target the front most central columb of hostile units.
And the other 2 the ones farther out on either flank

Then you sit and wat there numbers.

100.. (5 rocks bouce about) 80.... (5 rocks bounce about) 63,, (another volley) 48....
And they jsut stand there as Each and every unit is decimated by either direct hits or bouncing bolders.

That kind of makes it a bit Easy.
so i tend not to use atilary any more.

wow, that sounds like fun!
to be honest, i though people disliked artillery for its battlefield ineffectiveness and tactical inflexibility, not cos the AI doesn't know what to do about it...i assume NTW is the Napoleonic mod? this thing could happen in that period, troops would stand in formation for hours under heavy bombardment. the AI might be dumb, but real historical generals have often been even dumberer (?). or even dumber, maybe.

i experimented with organ guns in a custom battle the other day...6 against 600 pikemen..end result, a lot of dead pikemen! still, cavalry would've minced me and who the hell's gonna field 6 organ guns?

Um, I dropped a rock on the Pope's head once, which was certainly memorable. But it is fairly rare (only happened once to me that I recall). I used to like catapults for the "shock and awe" factor (even more so with firey onagers in RTW) - they certainly seem impressive. But when I look at the post-battle casualties they often kill very modest numbers - far less than a vanilla unit of archers in my SP games. I've heard they get much better with high valour generals, so that may be a factor.

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I've heard they get much better with high valour generals, so that may be a factor.

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this is most definitely the case...i really only use them with Byzantines cos they have generals who give huge valour bonuses, which makes them astonishingly accurate. i think my 4 killed around 40-50 guys each before running out of ammo, a similar return to a unit of archers (although archers, particularly the Trebizond archers i had, can obviously scrap much better). in sieges under low valour generals artillery can be the most frustrating thing ever, as it can repeatedly miss a large and obviously somewhat stationary castle...

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

wow, that sounds like fun!

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Oh il admit The 1st time I used them.
I was giggeling like a little school girl, And was Extreamly pleased that the 1st volley had done so much damage (lucky hit i thought)
second Was just as acurate
so was the 3rd
Even if the ai are marching Quicky They dont miss.
So the novelty soon wore off.

And yes NTW is napolionic Total war.

Its A great mod,
I rate it at 9/10

would have had 10 out of 10 but its a Little bit easy Even with the time limit.
Also The time limit prevents you playing a nice casual game of camp and build,
So it forces you in to Playing agressivly.

My favorite memory of artillery on the battlefield has to be blasting my general with a culvern:laugh4:

your General? whoops. :laugh4:

perhaps it was a classic management 'and what does this button (or fuse, if you will) do' moment...
or 'no, no, Sire, don't stand THERE...<BANG>'

Catapults are really good for general/king killing as the rocks seem magnetically attracted to them.

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

Catapults are a battlefield affectation of mine that i can't get rid of, people say they're a bit rubbish, you'd be better off bringing more archers or something.

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Although my passion for catapults dosent seem to be as strong as yours I seem to find a place for them in my armies on a regular basis.

Particularly when defending, there is nothing quite like sitting on a hill lobbing rocks at people far away and knocking them off. A guilty pleasure perhaps, but its fun to watch, particularly the Naptha catapults.

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Originally Posted by Odin

A guilty pleasure perhaps, but its fun to watch

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exactly. i'm a sucker for stuff like that. lining up spears and archers and then sitting on my arse waiting for the enemy to get there is so dull sometimes!

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Catapults are really good for general/king killing as the rocks seem magnetically attracted to them.

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weird but true. that's 2 out 2 battles where rock meets general. i'd have got the French general in a third battle as well, but he took an arrow first...good way to get around their multiple lives/jedi status. the only historical example i can think of was Simon de Montfort the Elder, who had a terminal encounter with a big rock during the siege of Toulouse...

also works well in VI against hordes of Irish, as they seem to approach in depth, kerns/bonnachts in front then gallows and spears. can get a lot of kills on the bounce, so to speak...

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

your General? whoops. :laugh4:

perhaps it was a classic management 'and what does this button (or fuse, if you will) do' moment...
or 'no, no, Sire, don't stand THERE...<BANG>'

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lol


General Loyalty Management?

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Originally Posted by Lanemerkel1

General Loyalty Management?

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what, don't betray the empire or you too can have a completely innocent-looking accident with some artillery...! :laugh4:

i think one of the Scottish kings managed to blow himself up too...James IV maybe.

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

I've heard they get much better with high valour generals, so that may be a factor.

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Doesn't seem to help that much. Catapults led by 9 star generals miss quite alot. Combat valour on the other hand. :2thumbsup:

Starting the battle with 10 culverins pounding on the enemy is great fun anyway. ~D

Reminds me of the time I killed the leader of the Golden Horde with a single cannonball from a tower of my castle, after he died I sallied out against his 10000, outnumbered 2:1, and managed to rout them. Not suprising though really, seeing as these were hardened troops from the Polish, Hungarian, and Byzantine campaigns, and I don't think the Mongols had quite so much valour as them. :book:

Had a similar experience in terms of catapults, there I was with a meagre force of 650 Byzantines against 1700 Spanish Crusaders, I thought to myself "Find a hill, hold it aslong as I can, do as much damage as possible" simple, lose but make them pay for it.

I had 1 catapult team, that had killed squat in the 2 previous battles they had been in so I vengefully put them at the back of my army, the battle starts and the map turns yellow as a load of Spanish come towards me.

First thing I do is click on my catapult and order it to fire, randomly clicking into the mass of Spanish, first boulder goes absolutely miles away from where I clicked bounces over the Feudal sergeants crashing into a unit of Royal knights killing 1 man, who happened to be the enemy general. :2thumbsup:

Laughing hysterically at the joy of such absurd luck I ordered my trashed units of treb archers to fire down at the Spanish, within a few minutes the crappy units of the Spanish army are running for their lives and the better units can't withstand the charge from my 2 full Varangian units who whilst outrageously outnumbered piled into the Spanish routing the lot of them. I then unleashed my fierce -1 morale horse archers units to chase them down. After about 20 minutes of chasing, routing chasing the stats were 400 Spanish killed and 900 captured to a wonderful 87 Byzantines. The most ridiculous thing i've ever seen. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

exactly. i'm a sucker for stuff like that. lining up spears and archers and then sitting on my arse waiting for the enemy to get there is so dull sometimes!



weird but true. that's 2 out 2 battles where rock meets general. i'd have got the French general in a third battle as well, but he took an arrow first...good way to get around their multiple lives/jedi status. the only historical example i can think of was Simon de Montfort the Elder, who had a terminal encounter with a big rock during the siege of Toulouse...

also works well in VI against hordes of Irish, as they seem to approach in depth, kerns/bonnachts in front then gallows and spears. can get a lot of kills on the bounce, so to speak...

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I've named it the Jedi Attraction Postulate and it states that Jedism's warping of 'da force' causes large flying objects to alter their trajectory to bend into the spacial curvature around said jedi.

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

what, don't betray the empire or you too can have a completely innocent-looking accident with some artillery...! :laugh4:

i think one of the Scottish kings managed to blow himself up too...James IV maybe.

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James II in 1460 during the seige of Roxburgh. He was only 29 years old, and the first Scottish king to adopt cannon for siege warfare. He died when his wife came to visit the siege: he was personally firing a cannon in her honor and it blew up on him. Ah the dangers of trying to impress womenfolk.
:oops:

Ajax

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

I've named it the Jedi Attraction Postulate and it states that Jedism's warping of 'da force' causes large flying objects to alter their trajectory to bend into the spacial curvature around said jedi.

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Good one, ASM. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

But yeah, it's pretty thoroughly documented that artillery crews have an absolutely uncanny ability to knock off generals--both the enemy's and your own. At least this phenomenon doesn't discriminate, as it seems to happen to the AI as often as it does to us! :dizzy2:

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I've named it the Jedi Attraction Postulate and it states that Jedism's warping of 'da force' causes large flying objects to alter their trajectory to bend into the spacial curvature around said jedi.

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roflmao
brilliant!

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James II in 1460 during the seige of Roxburgh

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thanks Ajax, i can never remember which one blew himself up and which one died at Flodden.

i prefer to keep my general away from ballistas...they appear to be useless for anything except neatly turning him into a kebab wrapped in expensive tinfoil...

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

I've named it the Jedi Attraction Postulate and it states that Jedism's warping of 'da force' causes large flying objects to alter their trajectory to bend into the spacial curvature around said jedi.

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~D . I heard there is a bug in the accuracy calculation that made catapults as accurate against generals as they are against walls. Cannot confirm it though, other than that artillery does seem to have a propensity to hit the general.

While we are on the subject: is there any one that uses trebuchets/mangonels? I find them far less useful than catapults. Yes, they do more damage but they seem unable to reliably hit anything, even a caste wall. Ballistas are even worse: no accuracy and almost no damage when they do hit. Never even managed to hit the enemy general with it either (but they did once kill my own general :oops: ). Can anyone provide some pointers to using them or should I just go for catapults?

I believe that trebuchets and mangonels have a longer range than catapults, so they are useful when fighting against more advanced castles, especially if those castles have ballista/catapult towers that could destroy a close range catapult.

I like the catapults because they can rotate themselves(I believe) so they aren't like "Dude, they... are going really really right... that means... RUN AWAY!"

I like using trebuchets, although that's partly just because I like the word. ~:joker: Serously, though....

Like CosmoSteve, I do find them useful against the larger castles. I've also discovered they can be quite handy when you're fighting defensive battles--there's a lot to be said for artillery that can start flinging rocks at the enemy before they're even close enough to bring their archers to bear. ~D

Regardless of what you're using them for, however, the biggest key to employing trebuchets successfully (for me, at least) is numbers. Ideally, you want to have at least 2 of them in a battle (sometimes even 3 or 4) to be truly effective. Having multiple trebuchets helps make up for their lack of accuracy, plus it keeps up a relatively sustained rate of fire (which is another key to employing them effectively).

With Ballistas, I've found them to be far more limited in their use, although I still build a few now and then. Ballistas are actually pretty good for breaking down the gates to forts and even keeps, as it reduces your "regular" units' exposure to the castle's automated defenses. Like other artillery pieces, they can also be useful in defensive battles, although their relatively short range and piss-poor accuracy makes them less effective than the others. So while Ballistas do have their uses, I generally don't use them nearly as much.

When it comes to pre-gunpowder artillery, trebuchets, catapults, and naptha catapults are pretty much all I use.

Balistas break gates and shoots the people bbehind them....
So i like them,

trebuchays need to be prety much as far away from the wall they can be and still be able to target it,
you tend to hit something then.

If its 2 short you get a lucky bounce at times.
2 long and the back wall or keep exetera get it,

There handy as they can be out side of arrow tower range,
Where as my catapults usualy cant be.

nothing like a good culverin :burnout:

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Originally Posted by Ludens

~D . I heard there is a bug in the accuracy calculation that made catapults as accurate against generals as they are against walls. Cannot confirm it though, other than that artillery does seem to have a propensity to hit the general.

While we are on the subject: is there any one that uses trebuchets/mangonels? I find them far less useful than catapults. Yes, they do more damage but they seem unable to reliably hit anything, even a caste wall. Ballistas are even worse: no accuracy and almost no damage when they do hit. Never even managed to hit the enemy general with it either (but they did once kill my own general :oops: ). Can anyone provide some pointers to using them or should I just go for catapults?

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I always thought it was a feature. Its one of their only redeeming field battle features. Being able to literally lock onto enemy generals and 1 hit KO him is sweetness.

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Originally Posted by Just A Girl

trebuchays need to be prety much as far away from the wall they can be and still be able to target it,
you tend to hit something then.

If its 2 short you get a lucky bounce at times.
2 long and the back wall or keep exetera get it,

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Interesting. My biggest problem with Trebuchets/Mangonels is that they sometimes manage to shoot all their without damaging a wall enough to actually knock it down. Which rather defeats the purpose of taking them.

Anyway, thanks for the advice CosmoSteve, Martok and Just A Girl.

BTW I also consider artillery on the field overpowered, especially against the A.I. who seems clueless on how to either use or counter them.

I just played a custom battle where I was playing the Swiss with the Pope, Italy, and HRE as my allies, French, English, Spanish, and Byzantines as my enemies.


each faction had the same army same men same units and same bonus level

10 Arquebusier Units per army (each armies general having full valour weapons and armour)
6 Culverin Units per Army


I killed the byzantine and French generals whom I was facing at the time right off the bat, the Germans killed off the Spanish General, and I got over to that side of the field in time to help out in 24 gun crushing of the English general




I have to give props to the English though, even though they took the brunt of my allied force they stayed in the battle the longest.

I dont bother with balistas (total waste of money) and all other non-gun powder seige engines except for catapults, which can turn so makes them far more effect in tracking enemy movements.

Nothing better than being on a flat landscape watching an enemy army march towards you while your cannons blast nice clear pathways through their units. Hopefully by the time they get close you have used most of your ammo and you can retire you artillery units for some reserves.