Kingdoms unit profiles at the .com ?

I've just been browsing the official website for Kingdoms, hoping there were more videos where the first two came from. Sadly, no, but there ARE a bunch of unit previews, some of which look damn cool, and some are just... weird. To me anyway.

For example, the Byzantines are apparently going to get a sort of primitive flamethrower unit. Basically a guy with a big sack of Greek fire strapped to his back and a handpump. Do you guys know if there's any historical basis for those ? I know the Byzantines loved their Greek fire, but I thought it was only used in naval warfare, and maybe the odd siege machine ?

What's the link? Also, can you post some screenies?

Yeah i think those dudes look a bit fictional i cant see why they didnt go for a siege engine which would have the potential to be much cooler imo.

To my knowledge, they only mounted them on towers in addition to ships.

But hey, there's been a dozen threads asking for such a unit, so I won't complain. There are clearly a bunch of people who wants this unit, who am I to deny the people their opium?

www.totalwar.com, obviously, but the whole thing's in Flash, so I can't post a better link than that, nor a link to the exact unit either :/


EDIT : gah ! Seems they've added one since last I came : Mayan Hornet Throwers !. So yes, naked guys who throw... hornet nests. :rolleyes: I understand that "a guy with a sword and a shield" gets repetitive, but come on... War Beekeepers ?

Well I think it said on Wiki(not the best source but always something) that they did have a hand-pump that would shoot out the greek fire.
It was mainly used during seiges tho to burn the enemy as they approached the walls.

For those that don't believe this unit actually existed, check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aph-3zEacuw
:book: :yes:

Hahaha, anyone else seen the mounted peasants/'dievas guard'?

@Joshwa : yeah, my OP originally mentionned the FEARSOMENESS of a "war pitchfork", but apparently they did exist and were not only popular but very usefull.

Still, those pagan cav. with pitchforks go well with the beekeepers, in a sort of Agriculture : Total War concept :]

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Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

@Joshwa : yeah, my OP originally mentionned the FEARSOMENESS of a "war pitchfork", but apparently they did exist and were not only popular but very usefull.

Still, those pagan cav. with pitchforks go well with the beekeepers, in a sort of Agriculture : Total War concept :]

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They defend their settlements with massive, oversized turnips instead of walls!:laugh4:

Well did you see the Britannia video?

Well we do understand that CA does put some things in simply for fun. Hungarian 'battlefield assassins' are a perfect example. You would not go back in time and find a medieval battlefield where a field army is fighting a bunch of 'battlefield assassins' everywhere. It is simply for people's enjoyment. I must say that if I were Hungarian and played Hungary, I would be quite pissed at CA making such a goofy special unit for my country instead of something based more upon reality.

Tschüß!
Erich

@alpaca : what about it ?

Almost nothing about the America's campaign is going to be realistic whatsoever.

The total war model just doesn't work well when applied to the conquest of Americas, as you didn't have huge armies clashing in wonderful linear formations in brutal melee combat.

WARBEES! New damage type! Anaphylactic shock!! :skull:

God help anyone fighting the Aztecs who is allergic to bees... :inquisitive:

Tschüß!
Erich

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Originally Posted by Fußball

God help anyone fighting the Aztecs who is allergic to bees... :inquisitive:

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Ehhmm those are Mayan units.
Are Aztecs even in the American campaign ??
I thought they were destroyed.

kingdoms will be fun!

i just hope they will find some place to incorporate an armored battlewagon.

:laugh4:

Indeed the conquest of the americas didn't include that many battles anyway. The enormous success of the conquest was mainly based on the European diseases that the American population were not resistant to, causing them to be decimated in a few years.
Unless you count Pizarro's conquest of Cajamarca, when 37 horse bested 80,000 (I kid you not, eighty thousand!) foot. (described in Jared Diamond's classic book Guns, Germs and Steel http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/show/episode2.html).
Now that would be a weird and somewhat disappointing Total War battle, and everyone would scream at the AI...

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Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

I've just been browsing the official website for Kingdoms, hoping there were more videos where the first two came from. Sadly, no, but there ARE a bunch of unit previews, some of which look damn cool, and some are just... weird. To me anyway.

For example, the Byzantines are apparently going to get a sort of primitive flamethrower unit. Basically a guy with a big sack of Greek fire strapped to his back and a handpump. Do you guys know if there's any historical basis for those ? I know the Byzantines loved their Greek fire, but I thought it was only used in naval warfare, and maybe the odd siege machine ?

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the chinese had a primitive flamethrower, maybe byz imported it, or maybe it came free with 5 orders of silk, the picture i saw even had that dragons head on it, but it was connected to a big barrel, dont see how it would be carried by one man, or with any speed. i read it was mostly used in castle defense

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Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

www.totalwar.com, obviously, but the whole thing's in Flash, so I can't post a better link than that, nor a link to the exact unit either :/


EDIT : gah ! Seems they've added one since last I came : Mayan Hornet Throwers !. So yes, naked guys who throw... hornet nests. :rolleyes: I understand that "a guy with a sword and a shield" gets repetitive, but come on... War Beekeepers ?

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lol i think someones been watching Apocolypto :D

i dont know the history of battles around greece and if that fire spraygun was that affective it would be prevelant in the records of the byzantians and any enemies they had where it wasused. also it never mede it to the west after the fall of contantinople so i would think although it existed it probably had too many drawbacks to be used large scale in battles.

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Originally Posted by crpcarrot

lol i think someones been watching Apocolypto :D

i dont know the history of battles around greece and if that fire spraygun was that affective it would be prevelant in the records of the byzantians and any enemies they had where it wasused. also it never mede it to the west after the fall of contantinople so i would think although it existed it probably had too many drawbacks to be used large scale in battles.

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yeah, like what if the wind blew the wrong way?:dizzy2:

Ditto with modern flamethrowers, really, but with the added bonus of bullets...

What bugs me is that while they are mentionned in many sources, none have been found as far as I know. Whereas we found countless swords, shields, helmets and so on. Even the guy from the video essentially said "well, assuming they had them, this is what they could have looked like and how they could have worked", which isn't exactly the same as saying "They existed", and another leap away from "They were in wide use in the armies of Byzantium".

I'm convinced there existed siege engines and wall defenses and so on using the flamethrower principle, since those were used on ships, but that's quite a leap to go from there to individual devices. Or individual AND SAFE FOR THE USER devices :grin:. I mean, modern flamethrowers operate on the same basis but with much improved tech, and still they're very hazardous so...

The TW games have always included a few gimmicky units, personally I just ignore them. I think the only ones I used with any frequency were war dogs and even then I was puzzled hoow a dog managed to tell friend for foe.

Perhaps there should be any option to switch the novelty items off though. Obviously you can refuse to use them yourself but the AI might still produce them.

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I was puzzled hoow a dog managed to tell friend for foe.

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Easy ! Spy-planted steaks in the pockets of enemies before every battle :grin:

As to your suggestion, well you can always remove them from the descr_buildings.txt file I suppose.

(EDIT : but that reminds me of a (possibly apocryphal) WW2 anecdote. See, the Russians had this idea that, since the German tanks were hard to knock out using conventional means, a good idea would be to train dogs to run under them. Said dogs would obviously be strapped with explosives. But since they didn't *have* panzers, they trained the dogs using their own tanks. And when the dogs were eventually deployed in battle, they usually raced... right under Russian tanks. Boom. :grin:)

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Originally Posted by Didz

The TW games have always included a few gimmicky units, personally I just ignore them. I think the only ones I used with any frequency were war dogs and even then I was puzzled hoow a dog managed to tell friend for foe.

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Usually by the smell. I figure a German tribal would smell completely different compared to a Roman legion footsoldier. Even more so when you figure the smells from cooking fires and food tend to linger in clothing.

But that's a rationalization. War dogs were fun for a few battles, and then they went extinct thanks to the modding community. :)

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Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

What bugs me is that while they are mentionned in many sources, none have been found as far as I know. Whereas we found countless swords, shields, helmets and so on. Even the guy from the video essentially said "well, assuming they had them, this is what they could have looked like and how they could have worked", which isn't exactly the same as saying "They existed", and another leap away from "They were in wide use in the armies of Byzantium".

I'm convinced there existed siege engines and wall defenses and so on using the flamethrower principle, since those were used on ships, but that's quite a leap to go from there to individual devices. Or individual AND SAFE FOR THE USER devices :grin:. I mean, modern flamethrowers operate on the same basis but with much improved tech, and still they're very hazardous so...

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think about all the helmets that were never found, now think of the ratio of medieval flamethrowers to the number of helmets

it doesnt seem odd to me there were these devices, yet none have been "found", but i do not disagree that to have a recruitable flamethrower unit is pretty inane in the ideas department

just give them some stupid guns or a ribault, to say "they didnt historically have many firearms so we arent giving them to byz, but what the heck....lets give them a flamethrower" is rather umm silly :inquisitive:

honestly i find archers outperform guns anyway but i like the noise and smoke, i bet this unit will be a novelty and have little practical use

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Originally Posted by sabutai

think about all the helmets that were never found, now think of the ratio of medieval flamethrowers to the number of helmets

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Which is, kinda, you know, akin to my point. If we did find lots of Byzantine helmets, but no Byzantine Flammenverfer Mk. IV, I think it's safe to assume that if they indeed existed, they at least weren't a significant part of their war machine, and not so common that they'd warrant being included in M2:TW when skutatoi (Byzantine "pikes", a significant part of the Byzantine army) aren't.

But flamethrowers are fun, so I'll shut up now :laugh4:

See, the problem with Byzantine flamethrowers is that they're all in my basement. Archaeologists never find them because archaeologists don't pay enough attention to eBaY!