Casse/Catuvellauni?

Ok so I felt interested about this tribe, especially when I searched it up on Google and practically found nothing. Some better sifting revealed only very little about the Catuvellauni, especially the Casse in particular. Apparently the Casse were only a 'subtribe' of the Catuvellauni, and there is very, very little information about them on the web at least.

Can anyone tell me were the EB team got their info from? I looked at the bibliography thread but there wasn't anything directly related to the tribe. Thanks and sorry if this has been asked before.

The poison tree bears more fruit.
:wall:
As you have discovered, the Cassi are mentioned once in Caesar's Gallic Wars, as one of five tribes or septs who surrender to Caesar when he is fighting the Cassivellaunus, leader of the Catuvallauni. Someone suggested, because of the similarity in names, that Cassivellaunus was actually from this tribe (I can't find any reference to who first suggested this, or how they explain why the Cassi would be stabbing their own king in the back and telling Caesar how best to burn down their own homes)

Anyway, the person who was put in charge of all things Celtic at EB further elaborated on this, saying that the Cassi were precursors of the Catuvellauni and may have attempted to unify the Britons before all the trouble with Caesar, Cassivellaunus and the Trinovantes started. He also changed the name to "Casse" for no apparent reason.

EB Team: DO SOMETHING. Admit you have been landed with a problem and you won't keep getting a post a week like this from puzzled Celticists!

Hehe, so it's been discussed before?

Ok, as a matter of fact, like you said I just found that they were Cassi and not Casse. There is obviously quite some more information about Cassi than Casse :)

Perhaps the EB team can enlighten us as to why the e and not the i?

I did find that they might have been precursors to the Catuvellauni somewhere, btw.

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

EB Team: DO SOMETHING. Admit you have been landed with a problem and you won't keep getting a post a week like this from puzzled Celticists!

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Firstly, it has been admitted there is a problem with the Celtic quotations, but this is the first time that I see any doubt cast on the name of the Casse.

Secondly, it's their mod so they don't have to do anything. Demanding it in the way you do is not likely to win them to your view.

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

The poison tree bears more fruit.
Anyway, the person who was put in charge of all things Celtic at EB further elaborated on this, saying that the Cassi were precursors of the Catuvellauni and may have attempted to unify the Britons before all the trouble with Caesar, Cassivellaunus and the Trinovantes started. He also changed the name to "Casse" for no apparent reason.

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Was this Ranika?

I presume it was "Ranika", I can't think anyone else did it. And, Ludens, I'm afraid there more than just doubt on the Celtic translations... while it is "their mod" it began as a complaint of a lack of historical accuracy in RTW and continues to pride itself on accuracy. If historical accuracy remains the goal of the mod, then the damage which has been done needs fixing as soon as possible and as far as the language side is concerned, it can be done without too much difficulty if we start to work together.

Well I can certainly answer the first part, Cassi is a Latin noun plural, like Tullii or Jullii, or Hastati. That has no bearing on the British pronounciation at all.

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

And, Ludens, I'm afraid there more than just doubt on the Celtic translations...

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So far, it's just Riadach's word against Ranika's. Whom should we believe more?

As for working together, demanding things from the team is not the way to go.

Forget the quotes. They are gone. Don't worry yourself or us with them. You won't get a release with the changes until 1.1 is done though.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

So far, it's just Riadach's word against Ranika's. Whom should we believe more?

As for working together, demanding things from the team is not the way to go.

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There exists reason to believe the guy was a complete fraud.

Erm - excuse me, but what particular reason does anyone have to take your word on it at face value ?

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Originally Posted by Metalstrm

Ok so I felt interested about this tribe, especially when I searched it up on Google and practically found nothing. Some better sifting revealed only very little about the Catuvellauni, especially the Casse in particular. Apparently the Casse were only a 'subtribe' of the Catuvellauni, and there is very, very little information about them on the web at least.

Can anyone tell me were the EB team got their info from? I looked at the bibliography thread but there wasn't anything directly related to the tribe. Thanks and sorry if this has been asked before.

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Ranika's direct answer to this question more than two years ago was this:

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Originally Posted by Ranika

Actually the king of the period is speculation. I didn't say we 'knew', but rather, there is reference to a king much later, who lived around the time, and attempted to expand his lands and engage in trade; it's an assumption, but it's as much as we have for 'specifics', and does fit with material evidence from the period (grave finds with plenty of apparently war dead, a lot of trade evidence, including foreign records, etc.). The name of the tribe locally would be rather unknown, though they are generally refered to as the Casse or Cassi today (the proto-Belgic tribe that inhabitted their region and began their conquest). They more or less morphed into the later Casse, and then the Catuvellauni. We do know their land was rich in trade, with copious finds of objects from foreign lands, and many foreign references to tin trading with the king of the region. It was likely this trade that funded their earliest ambitions, helping to form them into the body we'd later recognize as the Casse. This, being the first recognizable name of the tribe that become overlords of the region, was the best we could do for the name. The only alternative would be a far too generic name, such as Pretanne or something similar. Since it was the Casse who eventually exercised the most power of the pre-Roman tribes and kingdoms, they seem to be the most reasonable selection. Clearly though, yes, there is conjecture. There is conjecture with all factions, even those that wrote extensively. Without a time machine, conjecture is inevitable. However, we try to make the most reasonable assumptions as best we can.

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It was a good thread, with someone who was an ex-archaeologist and reconstruction historian in Ireland and Scotland doing the question asking and Ranika and Psycho responding. Nothing like the way some of the people now seem to conduct themselves.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

So far, it's just Riadach's word against Ranika's. Whom should we believe more?

As for working together, demanding things from the team is not the way to go.

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You should obviously believe Riadach, because what he said was right. Curiously, in a discussion on a mod called Europa Barbarorum, people seem to be almost behaving like Barbarian tribes and believing the word of their "trusted kinsman" over that of a stranger, rather than using reason. Do some searching. It's not that hard to find plenty of stuff which shows Ranika had been making stuff up and Riadach was speaking with authority and could back up his arguments. It was a shame, because he could have helped, but he was driven off.

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

EB Team: DO SOMETHING. Admit you have been landed with a problem and you won't keep getting a post a week like this from puzzled Celticists!

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Very seriously, self-righteous outrage does absoutely nothing to further your case. You have succeeded in invalidating your entire argument with two sentences. The EB team neither condones nor respects angry ranting. We owe you, Elmetiacos, absolutely nothing. Loudly indulging in an inflated sense of entitlement does nothing to change this. If you have additional criticism, share it constructively or expect to be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Erm - excuse me, but what particular reason does anyone have to take your word on it at face value ?

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Don't take lobf's word, don't take my word. Examine the facts. For instance, let's look at the archives - way back when this forum was on another forum:
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-t...p?t-16757.html

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Since I joined Europa Barbarorum, I have gotten access to the skills of Raighnigha. Ranika is a simpler way to spell his name I suppose. He lives in the Aran islands outside Ireland, and grew up on an island called Dungalloigh. He didn't have TV, cinema etc. There was a monestary there from old times. So aside from the usual activities of kids, playing physical games, he also read a lot inside the monestary. He learned a Celtic language before learning English. He is right now working for the catholic church, translating old documents from the monestary that nobody has gotten around to yet.

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"Raighnigha"... the name does not exist. Go search. Of all the millions of people whose names are on the web, there is no other "Raighnigha" anywhere. Moreover, the name can't be Irish anyway; its spelling is wrong. In Irish orthography there's a rule called caol le caol agus leathan le leathan which divides vowels into broad (a, o, u) and slender (e and i) and which forces consonants or clusters to only have one group on either side - so you could have *Raighniagha or *Raighnighea but not Raighnigha. Only someone who doesn't speak Irish would miss this. Someone who, for instance, would cut and paste their Irish sig from the Guiness website, complete with spelling mistake...
The island he was supposed to grow up does not exist:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~daraoc/A...anIslands.html
There are three Aran Islands, Inishmore, Inishmaan and Inishere (in Irish Inis Mór, Inis Meáin, Inis Oírr) plus two little atolls called the Brannocks. There is no "Dungalloigh" on these islands or anywhere else. The monastery on the Aran Islands he's supposed to have hung around in as a boy has been in ruins since the early 15th Century.

I'm sorry to be a bearer of such bad tidings, but this has been a big confidence trick! Now we have to move on and start to fix things.

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

I'm sorry to be a bearer of such bad tidings, but this has been a big confidence trick! Now we have to move on and start to fix things.

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Lol this make me laugh a lot ! :laugh4:

"Now we have to move on and start fix things" In what aspect did you ever contribute except some useless and aggressive criticism ?

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

Don't take lobf's word, don't take my word. Examine the facts. For instance, let's look at the archives - way back when this forum was on another forum:
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-t...p?t-16757.html

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That's really funny, Elmetiacos - this is very nearly identical to a PM sent to me by a person who has been active in these specific threads. It's almost enough to think there has been some kind of behind-the-scenes collaboration on all of this.

By the way, congratulations on hitting a post count of 27 - you seem to have had a very strong, coordinated opinion on all of these things since you appeared three weeks ago.

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Now we have to move on and start to fix things.

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Here you seem to have come to a conclusion on behalf of the EB team. I find this very interesting.

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Originally Posted by blacksnail

Very seriously, self-righteous outrage does absoutely nothing to further your case. You have succeeded in invalidating your entire argument with two sentences. The EB team neither condones nor respects angry ranting. We owe you, Elmetiacos, absolutely nothing. Loudly indulging in an inflated sense of entitlement does nothing to change this. If you have additional criticism, share it constructively or expect to be ignored.

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Let us put aside egos and ad hominem attacks. You indeed owe me nothing, howbeit that the nothing you owe me is still more than what you owe someone who has deliberately deceived you. I am not interested in what debt is owed (we are not really iron age warrior chiefs, after all) but in the truth. This issue keeps coming up. You can lock and delete threads, ban people from the forums, put up a wall of silence, but this issue is not going to go away and the longer it is ignored, and the material left uncorrected, the more word will spread and the more it will look bad for the EB team, and the more their frankly astonishing hard work and skill will be debased, because it does seem to be human nature to pick up on the bad rather than the good. I am not even making a demand - as I've said, I've picked up a great deal in my 20+ years of studying things Celtic and when and if the team decides to act, I'll type up the few pages of notes I've scribbled and give them to you. You can check them out for veracity - I'll post some helpful links and cite some helpful books.

But blacksnail, with the quotes removed, it's soooo much easier to attack the person than it is to point out other actual things in the mod that are wrong! Plus it's adhominemy delicious!

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

Let us put aside egos and ad hominem attacks.

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I can't agree that "we" have had egos and ad hominem attacks involved. The only ego I have when it comes to this mod is making the technical end support the historical end, and even then I'm the first person to state both publicly and privately that the EB1 1.0 recruitment system is the best of a bad technical situation. If you wish to put aside your ego and your ad hominem attacks, by all means go ahead. I am no historian, I have never attempted to present myself as a historian, and I cannot speak to the veracity of anything historical in nature.

What I can speak to is a poisonous environment in the public forums which I do not appreciate. It turns EB team members away from answering public posts and it turns fans away from the forums who think it's becoming a cesspit, as I have stated before.

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You indeed owe me nothing, howbeit that the nothing you owe me is still more than what you owe someone who has deliberately deceived you.

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It's interesting that you bring up deception. Please speak to the nearly identical post you have made compared to the PM I recently received. I would like a reasonable explanation on how two different people would be parroting the exact same points, links, and urging the same outcome without some kind of coordination. If there was coordination, please speak to it directly.

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This issue keeps coming up. You can lock and delete threads, ban people from the forums, put up a wall of silence, but this issue is not going to go away and the longer it is ignored, and the material left uncorrected, the more word will spread and the more it will look bad for the EB team, and the more their frankly astonishing hard work and skill will be debased, because it does seem to be human nature to pick up on the bad rather than the good.

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Please clarify exactly what you mean here. Define what word will spread, who will spread it, and who will be doing the debasing.

Let's look at the history of this particular situation. The issue recently came up. We said "we are looking into it." The issue came up again, in a thread started by you (as your second post to the ORG, no less), and we said "we are already looking into it." You stated that you weren't aware of the other threads, had said your piece, and would have no more to say on the matter. Then in this thread you seem surprised and frustrated that we have not rushed a patch out to address your concerns. If I am somehow misrepresenting this course of events, please show me where I am wrong.

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

Let us put aside egos and ad hominem attacks. You indeed owe me nothing, howbeit that the nothing you owe me is still more than what you owe someone who has deliberately deceived you. I am not interested in what debt is owed (we are not really iron age warrior chiefs, after all) but in the truth. This issue keeps coming up. You can lock and delete threads, ban people from the forums, put up a wall of silence, but this issue is not going to go away and the longer it is ignored, and the material left uncorrected, the more word will spread and the more it will look bad for the EB team, and the more their frankly astonishing hard work and skill will be debased, because it does seem to be human nature to pick up on the bad rather than the good. I am not even making a demand - as I've said, I've picked up a great deal in my 20+ years of studying things Celtic and when and if the team decides to act, I'll type up the few pages of notes I've scribbled and give them to you. You can check them out for veracity - I'll post some helpful links and cite some helpful books.

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have you also studied years how to behave in internet discussions? Look, I don't know anything about this celtic stuff, but what I do know is that if someone who no one has ever seen before comes in and present itself as the bearer of the Truth and treat the team as a bunch of fools, he can't have better reactions than the ones you have get.

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Originally Posted by blacksnail

What I can speak to is a poisonous environment in the public forums which I do not appreciate. It turns EB team members away from answering public posts and it turns fans away from the forums who think it's becoming a cesspit, as I have stated before.


It's interesting that you bring up deception. Please speak to the nearly identical post you have made compared to the PM I recently received. I would like a reasonable explanation on how two different people would be parroting the exact same points, links, and urging the same outcome without some kind of coordination. If there was coordination, please speak to it directly.


Please clarify exactly what you mean here. Define what word will spread, who will spread it, and who will be doing the debasing.

Let's look at the history of this particular situation. The issue recently came up. We said "we are looking into it." The issue came up again, in a thread started by you (as your second post to the ORG, no less), and we said "we are already looking into it." You stated that you weren't aware of the other threads, had said your piece, and would have no more to say on the matter. Then in this thread you seem surprised and frustrated that we have not rushed a patch out to address your concerns. If I am somehow misrepresenting this course of events, please show me where I am wrong.

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The poison is not of my making, nor is it of the making of anyone else who has been critical of this aspect of EB. Whenever it has been raised, the debate has gone in the same direction, that direction in which you are now seeking to move it. The hard facts raised by the critic are totally ignored and instead, they are subject to an immediate ad hominem attack, whether in the form of "How dare you insult our friend, Ranika" or "Oh no, not not this one again" The valid points raised don't seem to matter. You've ignored the irrefutable facts I've presented to you: that Ranika's little biography is utter rubbish: his name is mock Irish, he grew up on fictitious island and studied in a ruined monastery. Therefore, the basis on which you were taking his information on trust is completely undermined. Someone conned you.

But you don't seem to care about that. You only want to slate me for getting annoyed with the way objections are continually being raised and continually being ignored. And from the outside, it does look as if they are being ignored. It's more than 6 months since Riadach brought all this up, and I gather this wasn't the first instance.

The explanation for the link, which again, I must point out, you seem to be wilfully ignoring in favour of a veiled accusation of sock puppetry, is that I sent it first in a PM to someone else a few days ago. It's that simple. It also means you have been in possession of the information which discredits "Ranika" as a source and yet you have ignored it. You seem to think, like the board of Enron, that if you don't talk about a problem, it goes away. The more people you shout down, the more people will take a dislike to you. It's therefore only a matter of time before word gets out what is going on - unless you grow up and stop spitting in the faces of the people who are trying to help you make EB better.

Urrr... I didn't know my question would end up this way. Hope I offended nobody. Still I think it should be Cassi and not Casse correct?

I'm sorry, too. Not your fault, it's probably mine for jumping in, it's just I'm getting impatient. Cassi is Latin, yes. IMHO, either Cassi or Cassoi would have been the Brythonic and Gaulish as well, but in EB Casse was chosen.

Should would we just cut off parts of the map that people have problems with for theoretical 'what ifs' even when based on evidence? oh wait, that would be ridiculous. thanks for coming, friends.

many people in the world and life might be able to say true things, but not always be right. having said 1 aspect which is valid does not make following aspects equally so. for instance, Riadach's words about the LACK of information was correct- DUH! that's why we all don't know it by heart like Greco-Roman. Seriously now, that ain't special. He was right that in a void of information, some recreation is theoretical- such as the recreation of Indo-European language... HELLO- there was NO written Proto-IndoEuropean language, but we use it and Academia uses it, even though many scholars look down upon such since it's not founded in 10 layers of authority.

we have removed quotes which are naturally theoretical in nature, which we cannot find sources upon, because Raidach and others have been helpful and pointed out that this stuff is TOO theoretical and concerning. That doesn't mean they were made up- or anything else was. It also doesn't mean they're truth either. They were damn good quotes regardless, but you don't see Old Norse in EB for the obvious reason, despite some nice lines [see my sig].

So, we look into some things that are hard to research which some fans have brought up without concrete evidence and find out they might have a point- remove it, and you guys are still pissy? that is not the way to act with people who want to do the right thing. that kind of thing makes me want to keep whatever you don't want just to spite you. if you get an attitude YOU DESERVE IT AND MORE because of your own inappropriate attitude. it is a fact that it is not good to reward bad behavior, so we shouldn't even tell you guys we took the quotes out ~:) at least in my opinion

It's unbelievable how much smack is talked on this, having no proof of anything or than rhetoric- and internet sources on Medieval Irish don't really mean anything concerning language ca. 270BC. i suppose i am just lucky to not have people saying 'any German student who has learned Middle High German would know these rules' which i would have to laugh my ass off about... it's akin to 'any English student who has learned Middle English would know these rules'... and so on.

I suppose some might believe the Swēbōzez (the correct form of the name, btw, to be ensurably enacted in EB2) should be called Swebi, some kind of fake wannabe accurate language based in Latin? It's all or nothing. Proto-Germanic has an -ī ending (usually feminine īn-class) based in Indo-European too which potentially brought about the Latin versions, but it's hardly accurate to use the Latin.

what is proof? at a bare minimum, a quotation and CITATION in a scholarly article or book... this is not hard at all. you see, the great things about books is that it is much harder for little children and people off of the street to publish their whim as fact, because it takes money. whole establishments have been built so that one can trust what is written even if money is aquired for publishing. EB never just trusts some strange people who loudly proclaim their expertise, thus why Raidach and others who outright make insulting remarks about things they have no clue, get the reaction they do.

ps- you won't find blitzkrieg80 in any German dictionary ~:) and there's a rule where names don't have numbers which come before or after them- or even in the middle. but believe me, i have a real name, and it's really derived from a Germanic language.

Not to be dismissive, yet this was an issue I noticed a ways back. Still, decided a discussion of Cassi vs anything was at best non sequitur as it can not be demonstrated that these Belgo-Canninefate tribes (Atrebates, Catuvellauni-Cassi, Cantiaci, and others) had even established themselves in southeast Britain by the middle of the 3rd century BC. To this point I cite the late up tick of the Latene in the southeast. To some extent, all very similar to the Swabo issue in Germania, for very different reasons. In this case, as is my nature, I for one let sleeping dogs lie, till disturbed by an unruly racket. Without doubt I file this thread under, a rose by any other name.

Who else here thinks that we should just let the EB team deal with this internally? *raises hand* It's clearly a sensitive subject, and I must say, the accusations do make valid a more thorough investigation.

That being said, in order to make this game work, inferences have to be made at some points. The situation with the Casse is no different than various aspects of just about every faction.

Aye, for one.

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Originally Posted by cmacq

Not to be dismissive, yet this was an issue I noticed a ways back. Still, decided a discussion of Cassi vs anything was at best non sequitur as it can not be demonstrated that these Belgo-Canninefate tribes (Atrebates, Catuvellauni-Cassi, Cantiaci, and others) had even established themselves in southeast Britain by the middle of the 3rd century BC. To this point I cite the late up tick of the Latene in the southeast. To some extent, all very similar to the Swabo issue in Germania, for very different reasons. In this case, as is my nature, I for one let sleeping dogs lie, till disturbed by an unruly racket. Without doubt I file this thread under, a rose by any other name.

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See, this is a good post. I agree. And I appreciate your other posts toward quotes and such, btw, Cmacq. The Belgic invasion is theoretical. I currently and am always going to annoy EB and say the Celtic ethnicities should say something to that effect as if it is not fact - recently I suggested that the Iverni trait and others say 'They believe themselves to come from Ibera' as the Irish legend goes, because we all know Wessex nobility thought they were descendants of Odin, rather than that being the case, and the Romans similarly thought they came from Troy. I feel inclined to pester because it is my nature and because i have done some amateur research into Celts, being a wannabe 'Barbarianist' with more of a focus on Northern Europe. It cannot be proven that the Iverni did NOT come from Iberia, but the theory is too much for my taste.

While the idea that the Suebi were as expansive as represented in RTW by the vastness of Germanic tribes is unrealistic, there is no alternative (well, at least not recorded by Rome or in use at that time), esp. for a name. It would be very boring to have no faction in Northern Europe (or the British Isles for the matter). The term IE*sue and its deep connotations is widely attested and the Germanic usage was very similar to later confederations and what is the self-identity of many modern Germanic lang. speakers (Deut). In my mind, it is simply a self-designation rather than any political hegemony. Of course, i joined EB to help recreate the Proto-Germanic Voice Mod, much later than the creation of EB, so I had no input on the formation of the faction. Although I have been doing my best to justify what is in-game, using real information and expertise, based on my delvings into a VERY theoretical and unknown past. I did an all-nighter last night revamping the barrack/MIC so the 'Army-Fence' concept no longer annoys me past endurance, and I am quite happy with it. Similarly, the 1.1 GOVT and other buildings and aspects are quite lovely with accompanying language, reconstructed past Early Proto-Germanic which is still too late for EB. I am looking foward to releasing the Proto-Germanic Voice Mod so that the Swebōzēz are complete and can enjoy their full glory ~;) btw, it's amazing how weird it looks- just you wait.

ps- cmacq, i will some day answer your Consonant Vowel Shift interesting question/contextual delving- sorry i have been so busy with other stuff- like complaining about fans :grin:

Right,

thats a hoot, indeed,

I've always wondered why, that on the English branch of my family tree, the Wessexers claimed decent from a person called Woden, while the Kentsters picked a nameless prince of Troy. Possibly due to their long honeymoon with the Italics, no doubt?

Not to be even more obtuse...
as there also may be a certain logic why some Roman families believed a decent from the Trojans. However, I don't want to stir that particular pot of beans on an open flame, if you get my drift. I will hint, that this has something to do with the nature of what is Greek and nonGreek-Greek; as well as the native name and words of the Etruscans, with whom some prominent Latins intermarried.

Maybe its like the man says; 'have you ever wondered why the murder rates so low, but the accident rates so bloody high???'

PS. don't rush, I understand.

Ummm... Couldn't you simply mod the faction name to Cassi if it really bugged you? Or would that cause some internal gameplay problems? Maybe you could edit the faction description for yourself as well and just roleplay that the Casse are some other tribe. Obviously this is a game first, and a history lesson second. I hardly think that playing EB is going on my resume for my next teaching job interview... But I will it play for fun over the next two hours - my point is keep this game in perspective, enjoy it, mod it to your own tastes...
And show appreciation for the passion of the people who made the mod and the game engine happen.

Is the show over already? I just got some more popcorn...

IMHO, and yes my HONEST opinion, anyone that has any complaints about a mod such as EB and are THAT impatient (not metalstrm, welcome to the Org friend ~:wave:) to publicly argue with the developers should stop WAITING for the fixes and...drum role please..

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

DO IT YOURSELF.

Sorry, reading this post upsets me that someone can be so critical because they think they are right...

EB team, I thank you for the great mod. I could care less if it was Casse or Cassi, seeing as I speak English and not Latin/Celtic. The point of the matter is that if you are going to download a mod created by other people...don't complain about it please. For all they care, they didn't even have to release it. You should be thankful that you have the privelage to play such a wonderful mod.

And forum mods, note I didn't name anyone besides metalstrm, so there are no personal attacks in this post.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

The poison is not of my making, nor is it of the making of anyone else who has been critical of this aspect of EB. Whenever it has been raised, the debate has gone in the same direction, that direction in which you are now seeking to move it. The hard facts raised by the critic are totally ignored and instead, they are subject to an immediate ad hominem attack, whether in the form of "How dare you insult our friend, Ranika" or "Oh no, not not this one again" The valid points raised don't seem to matter.

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I am not sure how I can make "we are discussing this internally" any clearer than I have made it, but I will try if you do not understand what this means.

I am absolutely serious. I am not slating you. If you do not understand this, please let me know now so I can explain it.

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You've ignored the irrefutable facts I've presented to you: that Ranika's little biography is utter rubbish: his name is mock Irish, he grew up on fictitious island and studied in a ruined monastery. Therefore, the basis on which you were taking his information on trust is completely undermined. Someone conned you.

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I know of no Incendiary Lemon on the EB team. I have been a member since January of 2006. Perhaps he left the team prior to my arrival?

That said, you have pointed to an archive post on a board from three years ago written by somebody about Ranika and are holding that up as irrefutable fact that Ranika doesn't exist. I am no historian, as I have said, but it seems to me that you are basing your refutation upon something that one person said about another person on the Internet rather than what one person stated themselves. Is this the case?

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But you don't seem to care about that. You only want to slate me for getting annoyed with the way objections are continually being raised and continually being ignored. And from the outside, it does look as if they are being ignored. It's more than 6 months since Riadach brought all this up, and I gather this wasn't the first instance.

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I don't want to slate you for getting annoyed. I also don't comprehend why you are getting annoyed or why you are taking this so personally. I find it surprising you seem to think you have a greater personal investment in the mod than those of us who are working on it, but to each their own, I suppose. I don't hold that against you, it just confuses me.

Can you please explain to me why you feel the concerns you raised 19 days ago are being ignored?

Regarding Riadach, I invite you to read the original thread where this first came up. It really didn't matter how much he knew, because he presented it in a manner that seemed like he had never spoken to anybody online ever before. I cannot imagine a better example of how to sabotage your own point, or how to get the team to categorically ignore you.

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The explanation for the link, which again, I must point out, you seem to be wilfully ignoring in favour of a veiled accusation of sock puppetry, is that I sent it first in a PM to someone else a few days ago. It's that simple.

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Over the past six months we have had someone create multiple sock puppet accounts and post in various threads attempting to discredit Ranika or to raise doubts about the entirety of Ranika's work. These attempts have absolutely not been in an effort to help the mod, but to specifically target Ranika, with whom this person had extensive personal and professional disagreements.

You have been here for less than three weeks, so you can't be expected to know all that, but we are a bit sensitive to brand new accounts that pop up, start very similar threads, and spout extensive knowledge of things that occurred six months ago. It tends to set off warning bells.

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It also means you have been in possession of the information which discredits "Ranika" as a source and yet you have ignored it.

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Please explain what I have done to "ignore it."

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You seem to think, like the board of Enron, that if you don't talk about a problem, it goes away. The more people you shout down, the more people will take a dislike to you. It's therefore only a matter of time before word gets out what is going on - unless you grow up and stop spitting in the faces of the people who are trying to help you make EB better.

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I thought you were planning to put away the ad hominem attacks. I'm not certain how comparing me to the worst stewards of corporate malfeasance since the Savings & Loan scandal advances your case in any way.

Is it your position that I am not discussing this issue internally?

I might add that the first element of the confederation name, Catu-vellauni appears to be very similar to Cathu (as in Cathu-bodua or the Irish Badb Catha/Battle-Black Bird) and the Gallic, Catu meaning battle. Meanwhile, the first element in the personal name, Cassi-vellaunus (note the similarity of the second element to vellauni) seems very much like the Cornish Cas, again meaning battle. Also Vellaunas may be a reference to the capital of the Catu-vellauni, called VERVLAMIVM or CATVVELLORVM.

Hope this will help?

Despite the brickbats which are flying, it seems we are reaching a situation where we are close to agreement about the facts. I'm not going argue any more. What I am going to do, over the next few days, is post in a new thread the notes I've made about things Celtic in the game and suggestions as to how things that are way off could be corrected. The team, or anyone else who wants to mod stuff, can ignore or make use of these as they see fit. Some of what I suggest will no doubt be a load of crap. I hope you get someone good enough to spot any such errors; as I said, I'm not an emeritus professor of Celtic at anywhere, nor am I one of the Tuatha de Danann, but I have been a dabbler for 25+ years. So in the hope of providing something constructive, here we go...

P.S. cmacq - Catuvellauni seems to mean something like "Foremost in battle" or "Best in battle". Rather than an actual tribe, I wonder if it wasn't a big confederacy formed to either drive out conquerors from Gaul or Caesar himself.

I'm a bit lost here.. What is this argument all about, about those quotes in the loading screens? I didn't read all the posts in so much detail. It's not about Cassi vs. Casse I hope.

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Originally Posted by Metalstrm

I'm a bit lost here.. What is this argument all about, about those quotes in the loading screens? I didn't read all the posts in so much detail. It's not about Cassi vs. Casse I hope.

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No, it's about another issue concerning the region that has been raised frequently, prominently by Riadach and Elmetiacos. Unfortunately your thread was hijacked.

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Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80

we have removed quotes which are naturally theoretical in nature, which we cannot find sources upon, because Raidach and others have been helpful and pointed out that this stuff is TOO theoretical and concerning. That doesn't mean they were made up- or anything else was. It also doesn't mean they're truth either.

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Why sugarcoat things? There's a difference between the 'theoretical' - possible scenarios based logic, and things which are completely fabricated, coming straight out of someone's imagination, which was the charge being made against some of the quotes.
As I've said on previous threads, I cannot understand why people are being denounced as aggressive or arrogant simply because they genuinely see a problem in the mod.
I know this problem has already been dealt with, Im just questioning the reaction again being shown in this thread.

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Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80

It's unbelievable how much smack is talked on this, having no proof of anything or than rhetoric...

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There were several links produced to back up the points made.

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Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80

...and internet sources on Medieval Irish don't really mean anything concerning language ca. 270BC.

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I believe the point being made was that if someone claiming to be a scholar of Irish used an inaccurate Irish name, there is good reason to question his expertise.

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Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80

what is proof? at a bare minimum, a quotation and CITATION in a scholarly article or book... this is not hard at all. you see, the great things about books is that it is much harder for little children and people off of the street to publish their whim as fact, because it takes money. whole establishments have been built so that one can trust what is written even if money is aquired for publishing. EB never just trusts some strange people who loudly proclaim their expertise, thus why Raidach and others who outright make insulting remarks about things they have no clue, get the reaction they do.

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If scholarly citations havn't been used, its because it dosnt take a scholar to tell you basic, foundation level rules of Irish; or that a certain work (or island, or monastery for that matter) simply does not exist.

No-one is trying to insult the team. Mistakes happen, that's completely understandable.
But let me put it this way. If you had something hanging out of your nose, you'd want someone to tell you, wouldnt you? Or would you prefer people said nothing and let you go in to work with it?

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If you had something hanging out of your nose, you'd want someone to tell you, wouldnt you? Or would you prefer people said nothing and let you go in to work with it?

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Apparently you would have to ask very politely, preferably backing your request with a citation, that it would be in the best interests of said person to remove it.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius Nero

Apparently you would have to ask very politely, preferably backing your request with a citation, that it would be in the best interests of said person to remove it.

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:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

Despite the brickbats which are flying, it seems we are reaching a situation where we are close to agreement about the facts. I'm not going argue any more. What I am going to do, over the next few days, is post in a new thread the notes I've made about things Celtic in the game and suggestions as to how things that are way off could be corrected. The team, or anyone else who wants to mod stuff, can ignore or make use of these as they see fit. Some of what I suggest will no doubt be a load of crap. I hope you get someone good enough to spot any such errors; as I said, I'm not an emeritus professor of Celtic at anywhere, nor am I one of the Tuatha de Danann, but I have been a dabbler for 25+ years. So in the hope of providing something constructive, here we go...

P.S. cmacq - Catuvellauni seems to mean something like "Foremost in battle" or "Best in battle". Rather than an actual tribe, I wonder if it wasn't a big confederacy formed to either drive out conquerors from Gaul or Caesar himself.

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Words are not my strong suit, nor are the Tuatha de Danann, and thats good as I assume the fay have their proper place, and where I'm from nowadays that might be prancing near Buttass-naked, in the streets of the city by the bay. Still, I've noticed that on occasion the names applied to some Gallic, Belgic, and Germano-Keltic tribes and confederates may contain an element that suggests an important deity related to the possible controlling faction du jour. Also, you don't think that Catu- and Cass- may mean the same thing, in slightly different yet related languages?

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Originally Posted by Tiberius Nero

Apparently you would have to ask very politely, preferably backing your request with a citation, that it would be in the best interests of said person to remove it.

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That's right. Not ask- just state, politely... and if you had a mirror, it would help, esp. since so many people are immature (in the world- nobody being attacked here) and known to play jokes to amuse themselves. Who doesn't look, if it's possible, before trying to better their appearace? Seriously, 'made you look' and if there is something, we naturally get rid of it.

What the hell is wrong with people that they think they don't need to be polite? Just because bad behavior has begun to destroy the world, that doesn't mean it's ok. If laws didn't reward disrespectful people, then there would be much more politeness, because if someone pisses me off- i can kill them (or attempt it and get killed ~;p)- therefore people would make an effort to not be targeted by aggression... that's why there are still problems today even in a BS law system like that in the USA. the only thing stopping anybody is consequences, so I suppose that's good, but these consequences reward the shallow who are disrespectful, and they cannot remove the impetus for aggression.

We should be bring back the formal full bow :bow: Wesaþ ġē hāle

blitzkrieg, lets be honest please; first, I don't value politeness more than accuracy of information, not nearly half the way and neither should anyone being primarily concerned with approximation of the truth. And yet here we are disputing etiquette over facts; Riadach was pointing out mistakes (yes, "mistake" is not a swear word, as it is thought) which you wouldn't have to consult dusty tomes of knowledge to verify, the kind of mistake of one telling you that "dadragargalich" is a German word; you don't need to consult anything to tell that this is not so, if you know German, and you would know it cannotbe a German word either. And yet what happens in Riadach's thread? He points out a series of mistakes and is told that, although no one around has the first clue about Irish he won't be listened to, because he is, presumably, rude and abrasive (lol?).

Second it is well observed on my part that certain EB members (not to mention numerous fans) have a Pavlov's dog reaction when it comes to anything resembling criticism. I remind you of that thread with the guy 3-4 weeks ago who came saying that there were grammatical, vocab, and syntactical mistakes in some Greek phrases and had the bad idea to mention he was Greek; what happens? For two pages he is being e-lynched because everyone (and I mean everyone) was thinking he was here to dispute about the tired subject of Greek pronunciation, until I posted something along the lines of "HI HE IS NOT SAYING THAT CHECK 1ST POST PLZ" and some mistakes were indeed spotted thereafter and corrected. If that is not classic Pavlov's reaction what is? The process: a) he is Greek b) complains about Greek in the mod (looks like a complaint at least)----> ergo he must be here about the pronunciation, oh jeez not this again, roflcopter etc.

That's all I had to say, kudos if you removed the suspect quotes, but you guys really have to work on your tolerance levels; if you think e.g. that Riadach's way of presenting his criticism was impolite, take some unfavorable academic and article reviews to read (because it is the same field) and make your own comparisons.

The problem with that old can of worms called the quote threads, is, well, very simply put: the linguistic 'evidence' is taken from Irish which is way AFTER the EB timeframe. It is exactly the same way of reasoning as what we get with that other beloved can of worms: the Greek Voicemod sounds wrong.

Similarly, people have seriously debated here that the only proper way of doing a Greek Voicemod is to have it being pronounced as if it were modern Greek. For nobody actually knows how to pronounce the classic Attic, much less those who have studied the sources and the transcriptions of the sources and the other languages and the dynamics of the language etc. etc. to provide us with those neat books about something called 'Grammar' which contain those sections on pronounciations...

Also, I should note that he was dismissed about the quotes & Ranika being a fake; but was granted on the names which were A) Conceptual, and B) conjecture (wanna know how many Greek names are in fact conceptual and conjecture?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

nearly every single one of them: there's simply not much information which gives us ready to use unit names...

). Same thing goes for the Proto-Germanic Voicemod.

Just as an aside: I managed to competely botch the name of the Seleukids, as you rightfully pointed out. Does that mean I am a fake and don't know what on earth I am talking about? To know a language is one thing; to have a certain talent for the flow & structure is another - but even if one posesses both mistakes can and will creep into your work on a more regular basis than one would assume from an 'expert'. If you want to know more about this kind of issue, or you don't believe me I refer you to keravnos - who, though he is a native speaker of Greek himself; actually has made just like me very elimentary mistakes.

Finally: even the ancients themselves botched it completely on more than one occasion. That is pure conjecture but also the only real fact we have.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Just as an aside: I managed to competely botch the name of the Seleukids, as you rightfully pointed out. Does that mean I am a fake and don't know what on earth I am talking about? To know a language is one thing; to have a certain talent for the flow & structure is another - but even if one posesses both mistakes can and will creep into your work on a more regular basis than one would assume from an 'expert'. If you want to know more about this kind of issue, or you don't believe me I refer you to keravnos - who, though he is a native speaker of Greek himself; actually has made just like me very elimentary mistakes.

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Not on the same boat; you made a mistake or two or three, this is completely understandable; nobody came to tell you "this doesn't look like Greek at all, where the hell did you get this" as happened multiple times with the Irish in question (and Riadach was talking about Old Irish as well). Also you are quick to recognize mistakes, from what I have seen, an admirable quality and don't take it to a personal level.

And btw keravnos is not a native speaker of Attic Greek, no one is, not even I, an Athenian by birth :p. Attic Greek is a foreign language to Greeks as to anyone else, it is just that Greeks understandably get through the early stages very quick (not all of them by any stretch of the imagination, ancient Greek is considered a very difficult subject in schools).

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Originally Posted by Tiberius Nero

That's all I had to say, kudos if you removed the suspect quotes, but you guys really have to work on your tolerance levels; if you think e.g. that Riadach's way of presenting his criticism was impolite, take some unfavorable academic and article reviews to read (because it is the same field) and make your own comparisons.

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If EB were academia or for profit, I would agree. It is neither and I do not. If somebody does not have the basic social skills to get their point across, we are under no obligation to listen to them. We have no use for would-be martinets. It kills team interest in the public forums, which I can only see as a bad thing - it means we miss the many threads that actually improve the mod.

One of the common misconceptions about the EB team is that we are on call to answer any question at any time about anything in the mod. The reality is that the EB team has been a rotating collection of people across multiple years. When somebody asks a question that can't immediately be answered, the first thing we do is try to get in touch with the member who has the most knowledge on the subject. Usually the person is around but occasionally someone with expertise is no longer with the mod and we just can't speak to it. In this instance we would note the question and pass it along when somebody with the knowledge was able to answer.

The biggest problem, I think, is that behind the scenes we have nearly 5000 threads that occasionally go as high as 1000 posts per thread. I would not be surprised if we have around 750,000 posts behind the scenes alone. Back in 2005 the early members were primarily historians and were able to navigate the digital rat warren of sources, but now it's three years later and with the number of posts an team turnover it becomes increasingly difficult to know exactly where to look. We are instituting a better system for EB2 because we simply can't have things like they are with EB1; it leads to the occasional situation where the team can't directly answer for the work for a former member because we don't have the comparable levels of expertise.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius Nero

Not on the same boat; you made a mistake or two or three, this is completely understandable; nobody came to tell you "this doesn't look like Greek at all, where the hell did you get this" as happened multiple times with the Irish in question (and Riadach was talking about Old Irish as well). Also you are quick to recognize mistakes, from what I have seen, an admirable quality and don't take it to a personal level.

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Correct, but the problem is, here, that Greek vs. Greek is an entirely different matter (most Attic being retained in modern Greek one way or another; some important shifts in grammar but actually noting too serious considering we talke 2000 years of evolution...); compared to say Dutch vs. Dutch (heck Dutch vs Belgian already reveals some striking grammar shifts). This is even more prominent in the much older languages spoken in Ireland and Brittain. There simply much more change & migration have taken place; at least their impact on the language as a whole has been much more substantial.

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And btw keravnos is not a native speaker of Attic Greek, no one is, not even I, an Athenian by birth :p. Attic Greek is a foreign language to Greeks as to anyone else, it is just that Greeks understandably get through the early stages very quick (not all of them by any stretch of the imagination, ancient Greek is considered a very difficult subject in schools).

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I meant modern Greek since, I was exclusively referring to choice of words & recongition of others. We both have made pretty elimentary mistakes there. Ask him about koine/byzantine Greek and he'll start banging his head against the proverbial wall, spontainously. ~;) (Hyperbole intended.)

EDIT: It's Seleukeis now, btw.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Correct, but the problem is, here, that Greek vs. Greek is an entirely different matter (most Attic being retained in modern Greek one way or another; some important shifts in grammar but actually noting too serious considering we talke 2000 years of evolution...); compared to say Dutch vs. Dutch (heck Dutch vs Belgian already reveals some striking grammar shifts). This is even more prominent in the much older languages spoken in Ireland and Brittain. There simply much more change & migration have taken place; at least their impact on the language as a whole has been much more substantial.

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Ok, perhaps I have misunderstood something profoundly here, but I was under the impression that the quotes in question from the circles no one has ever heard of were in fact quotes, not reconstructions (reconstructed quotes?!), that is someone is supposed to have seen them written; and then you have every single person here who has knowledge of Irish and Old Irish and tells you that under no circumstances is this recognizable as any kind of Irish they have ever seen and some give you linguistic reasons for this. It isn't really a defendable position that the quotes could be in fact Irish that old or mixed up with other dialects that no one recognizes, as that would have been of tremendous linguistic importance (we are talking a previously unknown language or dialect here!) and immensely unlikely to not have come to anyone's attention.

This common sense fact is what people have been calling attention to, that's all, at least to my understanding; to each his own, but unless someone is being arrogant or obnoxious in a truly cinematic-villain-type way, I am not annoyed at all by directness of presentation, if you lot require a pound of honey coating for someone to point out anything, I think you are missing out on several people who would gladly help with the project.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius Nero

Riadach was pointing out mistakes (yes, "mistake" is not a swear word, as it is thought) which you wouldn't have to consult dusty tomes of knowledge to verify, the kind of mistake of one telling you that "dadragargalich" is a German word; you don't need to consult anything to tell that this is not so, if you know German, and you would know it cannotbe a German word either. And yet what happens in Riadach's thread? He points out a series of mistakes and is told that, although no one around has the first clue about Irish he won't be listened to, because he is, presumably, rude and abrasive (lol?).

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You're very wrong. You might get an ignorant German-speaker to agree with you because that word doesn't fit into their small frame of knowledge, esp. concerning modern language- but I could truly find a way to explain that word you just made up- seriously. So your argument is totally flawed and so is Raidach's- because modern Irish has nothing to do with Proto-Celtic other than a language family basis- and of course a perspective of how things developed uniquely far into the future. The VERY assumption that there is some rule-system (a 'Celtic' rule system instead of IE) on a theoretical language only available because of knowledge of PIE shows your ignorance and others'. Sorry, that's just fact, as you say, which you prefer over politeness. I am sure you know other things quite well, and the same for all other modern Irish linguists... I'm not saying anyone is wholly ignorant, btw.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius Nero

This common sense fact is what people have been calling attention to, that's all, at least to my understanding; to each his own, but unless someone is being arrogant or obnoxious in a truly cinematic-villain-type way, I am not annoyed at all by directness of presentation, if you lot require a pound of honey coating for someone to point out anything, I think you are missing out on several people who would gladly help with the project.

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Politics my fellow forumer, politics. Dirty word perhaps but in my book (or at least how I was raised) when someone is giving of their time and effort for FREE you point out where you perceived they made mistakes in a polite fashion if you actually want your point listened to. Paid for products - maybe not so much if something doesn't deliver as advertised but that's not the case here.

Elmetiacos may be right - but he/she seriously needs more alcohol or more sex to lighten up a bit. What part about them discussing it internally didn't he/she get?

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Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80

You're very wrong. You might get an ignorant German-speaker to agree with you because that word doesn't fit into their small frame of knowledge, esp. concerning modern language- but I could truly find a way to explain that word you just made up- seriously. So your argument is totally flawed and so is Raidach's- because modern Irish has nothing to do with Proto-Celtic other than a language family basis. The VERY assumption that there is some rule-system (a 'Celtic' rule system instead of IE) on a theoretical language only available because of knowledge of PIE shows your ignorance and others'. Sorry, that's just fact, as you say, which you prefer over politeness. I am sure you know other things quite well, and the same for all other modern Irish linguists... I'm not saying anyone is wholly ignorant.

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Explain it, I am very interested.

And are you saying that the quotes are Proto-Irish or Proto-Celtic? That is we have an unattested language in quotations?

dadragargalich
ok let's deconstruct it:
dadrojanan (PGmc)- verb 'to shake' and accounting for gerundized form with the various stages of Germanic Mora / Nasal loss on unstressed word-finals, cognate to Norweigan dadra, G tattern
χarugaz (PGmc) < IE *kar 'hard' seein in Continental Celtic *karrikā 'stone' [thought to be borrowed from a non-IE source] as in OHG harug, OE hearg (where we see another loss of unstressed word-final)
-līk (PGmc) 'like' < IE *leig + adjective/noun/verb=> adjective, as in OHG dagalich 'daily'
which might possibly account for that- but i admit it's hardly conclusive, but as far as i want to go for something made up ~:) the timeline of various elements of Proto-Germanic of course cannot be explained since there is no point


the quotes were taken out, because we don't have a source- i cannot comment on something i can't look at ~:) but I could guess theres some reconstruction done on it as has been done for the Gallic voice mod.

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Originally Posted by Starforge

Elmetiacos may be right - but he/she seriously needs more alcohol or more sex to lighten up a bit. What part about them discussing it internally didn't he/she get?

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Believe me, those are the last things I need more of right now...
:dizzy2:
I don't want to keep this argument up, but the point about Riadach and his argument is this: the material Ranika (or whoever) created looks like Irish at first glance: it's got lots of bh's dh's ae's and -aigh's. But it isn't Irish. There are also bits of Welshy-looking spellings thrown in, like W as a vowel. So someone who actually speaks Irish would immediately smell a rat. Everyone who's pointed out that Primitive Irish (before c.600AD) doesn't resemble Modern or Middle Irish (or even Old Irish much) is perfectly correct. However, Riadach pointed this out anyway and whatever it does look like, it most certainly doesn't resemble mock Irish with Welsh bits. Here's a small sample:
MAGLICUNAS MAQI CLUTARI
It doesn't look Irish. If anything it looks more like Latin and that's no coincidence. The Celtic languages have changed tremendously in 2000 years; back then, Primitive Irish, Brythonic and Gaulish were flexional, with all the declensions and verb conjugations and adjectival agreement that you get if you try and learn Latin or (foolishly) Russian today. Written only in Ogham, it certainly didn't have all the bh's, dh's and -aigh's. What Riadach was picking up on was the failure to look like Irish at any stage, ancient or modern.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius Nero

Ok, perhaps I have misunderstood something profoundly here

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Bet you do. ~:) Because that's not what I meant...

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, but I was under the impression that the quotes in question from the circles no one has ever heard of were in fact quotes, not reconstructions (reconstructed quotes?!), that is someone is supposed to have seen them written; and then you have every single person here who has knowledge of Irish and Old Irish and tells you that under no circumstances is this recognizable as any kind of Irish they have ever seen and some give you linguistic reasons for this. It isn't really a defendable position that the quotes could be in fact Irish that old or mixed up with other dialects that no one recognizes, as that would have been of tremendous linguistic importance (we are talking a previously unknown language or dialect here!) and immensely unlikely to not have come to anyone's attention.

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What I mean is that the quotes were as far as I understood not written in OLD Irish, but in something called PRIMITIVE Irish. Old Irish is something from the (early) Middle Ages, AFAIK. For a quick reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Irish

So what I meant to say is that people who comment based on a (apparently rich) understanding of old Irish; are like people who comment based on a (rich?) understanding of modern day Greek when they talk about Linear B. I guess I don't really need to explain why any points made are hardly conclusive or irrefutable for that matter; and why I would think that it's a matter of One word vs. another.

at 280BC there is no Irish or Welsh and therefore the Proto-Celtic language would be a conglomeration, similar to how ProtoGermanic at 270BC cannot be East Germanic or NWGermanic.. in fact, ProtoGermanic doesn't even really describe the language I have been reconstructing, which is actually a little frustrating.

Now, the main problem is that we are not Celtic linguists so we can't agree with you and we ARE way too busy to become ones... so it's completely possible Ranika did not reconstruct properly- hell i am sure I am still making mistakes, but I keep going back to hammer them out, esp. if someone can bring my attention to something i have looked at for too long and missed and yes, it's a problem he is not here... so we're not closed to other peoples' expertise and linguistic evidence that something can / should be changed... but we would need some actual evidence... using IE and Primitive Irish / Ogham, even modern languages, as long as we're looking at the inbetween point with IE... i can't speak for EB of course, but trust me, nobody has a problem with corrections- it IS the reason the quotes were taken out.

About the quotes, here's some wiki-results. I know Wikipedia IS hardly anything to go by as absolute proof etc. etc. but it gets pretty interesting nonetheless:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_mythology
http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/cycles.html
http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-613340/Ulster-cycle

I find it interesting that blacksnail's posts are pretty much ignored, as is the one I posted that referred directly to Ranika's and Psycho's earlier responses to almost the same question as the initial one. It's far easier to jump on other team members' statements I suppose instead, which might be revealing in itself.

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

Despite the brickbats which are flying, it seems we are reaching a situation where we are close to agreement about the facts. I'm not going argue any more. What I am going to do, over the next few days, is post in a new thread the notes I've made about things Celtic in the game and suggestions as to how things that are way off could be corrected. The team, or anyone else who wants to mod stuff, can ignore or make use of these as they see fit. Some of what I suggest will no doubt be a load of crap. I hope you get someone good enough to spot any such errors; as I said, I'm not an emeritus professor of Celtic at anywhere, nor am I one of the Tuatha de Danann, but I have been a dabbler for 25+ years. So in the hope of providing something constructive, here we go...

P.S. cmacq - Catuvellauni seems to mean something like "Foremost in battle" or "Best in battle". Rather than an actual tribe, I wonder if it wasn't a big confederacy formed to either drive out conquerors from Gaul or Caesar himself.

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Here my knowledge is indeed limited and I do have a simple mind, thus I'm not actually sure how you arrived at 'Best in battle,' for Catu-vellauni? Yet, if one takes the possible first element of Veru-lam-ium, one may find (I) fearr or air [as in Fer-gus], (OI) for, ferr, or vers, (OW/OB) guor, (Breton) voar and oar, (Gaulish) ver, vero, and viro, (Welsh) goreu, (OP) wirst, (Lithuanian) wirzus all meaning; top, raised up, better, best, foremost, most high, and/or of superior standing. The second element is also of some interest as it appears similar to (I) lamh, (OI) lam, (Welsh) llaw, (Cornish) lof, (OB) lau, lama, or plama meaning hand. Now, there is air-lamh; literally high-hand, to-hand; meaning ready. So, Veru-lam-ium may mean 'place of high authority?' Then by extension a possible Catu-verulamus could mean 'Best in Battle' or better still 'Battle Ready.'

Unfortunately, I'm no closer to how you arrived at 'Best in battle' for Catuvellauni. The only possibility I can see for the second element in Catu-vel-laun-i is (OI) fail, fel, fil, with a root of vel or val; meaning to wish or prevail. Now, the Old Irish fail or foil can mean a ring or circle, again from the vel root, which also can mean a circle or ring, as well as to cover or encircle. Here, we also have the Welsh gwal. The third element laun may be related to Ian, (OI) lan, (Welsh) llawn, (OW) laun, (Cornish) leun or len, (Breton) leun or lano meaning full.

I'm sure I've made a great mistake somewhere, but the name Catu-vellauni seems to mean something like 'battle drawn full circle?' Again, If so, I may suggest this could apply to a certain aspect of the patron deity [possibly The Battle Ender] of a given ruling faction within this polity?

And...
Elmetiacos this is me setting on a fence I see no need to cross. From what little I do know, I fully understand and agree with the merits of your argument, yet I wholeheartedly disagree that they apply to this particular topic. The reasons are firstly, as I pointed out above there is no good evidence that these Belgo-Canninefate tribes had even crossed over until the mid-2nd century BC. Secondly, this issue is not about Old Irish or Goidelic in any form. More to the point, by the late 1st century BC it remains very unclear what particular form or forms of Kelt were actually used in southeast Britain. Not to sound a daff, but it could have been some archaic type of Old Prussian, for all we truly know.

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

Believe me, those are the last things I need more of right now...
:dizzy2:
I don't want to keep this argument up, but the point about Riadach and his argument is this: the material Ranika (or whoever) created looks like Irish at first glance: it's got lots of bh's dh's ae's and -aigh's. But it isn't Irish. There are also bits of Welshy-looking spellings thrown in, like W as a vowel. So someone who actually speaks Irish would immediately smell a rat. Everyone who's pointed out that Primitive Irish (before c.600AD) doesn't resemble Modern or Middle Irish (or even Old Irish much) is perfectly correct. However, Riadach pointed this out anyway and whatever it does look like, it most certainly doesn't resemble mock Irish with Welsh bits. Here's a small sample:
MAGLICUNAS MAQI CLUTARI
It doesn't look Irish. If anything it looks more like Latin and that's no coincidence. The Celtic languages have changed tremendously in 2000 years; back then, Primitive Irish, Brythonic and Gaulish were flexional, with all the declensions and verb conjugations and adjectival agreement that you get if you try and learn Latin or (foolishly) Russian today. Written only in Ogham, it certainly didn't have all the bh's, dh's and -aigh's. What Riadach was picking up on was the failure to look like Irish at any stage, ancient or modern.

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The team here has done an excellent job putting out a mod that is far more historical, enjoyable, and playable than the original. I'm sure that well thought through information would likely be well received as long as you don't do what Riadach did by calling past team members liars :yes: People working for free and willing to look at updated information in an effort to make your gaming experience better and historically more accurate deserve more respect than that.

Right,

I see now its from proto-kelt???

better-wello which in turn we have the root vel?

So MacBain's no good anymore?

I have other questions for those that call themselves Elmetiacos; that suggest they are Cymraeg, call themselves the Elmetian, and give a location in the Arthurian Roestoc? Why not call yourselves Coel Hen or Gwallog? To me using proto-Kelt in any historic or archaeological issue (actually any issue) is a bit akin to talking to the crazy friend that's expecting to win the lotto on Saturday night.

Also...
as never-written reconstructed lingoes go, how relevant would common-Kelt be, by the middle of the 1st century AD? Let the brickbats fly.

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Originally Posted by Irishmafia2020

Ummm... Couldn't you simply mod the faction name to Cassi if it really bugged you? Or would that cause some internal gameplay problems? Maybe you could edit the faction description for yourself as well and just roleplay that the Casse are some other tribe. Obviously this is a game first, and a history lesson second. I hardly think that playing EB is going on my resume for my next teaching job interview... But I will it play for fun over the next two hours - my point is keep this game in perspective, enjoy it, mod it to your own tastes...
And show appreciation for the passion of the people who made the mod and the game engine happen.

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Irishmafia

You're Tod&#237;neeshzhee, Hopituh, or Biligana?

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What I mean is that the quotes were as far as I understood not written in OLD Irish, but in something called PRIMITIVE Irish. Old Irish is something from the (early) Middle Ages, AFAIK. For a quick reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Irish

So what I meant to say is that people who comment based on a (apparently rich) understanding of old Irish; are like people who comment based on a (rich?) understanding of modern day Greek when they talk about Linear B. I guess I don't really need to explain why any points made are hardly conclusive or irrefutable for that matter; and why I would think that it's a matter of One word vs. another.

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Ok so the quotes are primitive Irish, which is known, at least according to the article, only from very fragmentary inscriptions, which most often than not consist of personal names alone, and yet someone possesses whole collections (the circles in question) of short poems in it (the quotes in question), which no one has seen before or requested to see! I leave it at that, it is more likely than not that something fishy is going on.

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dadragargalich
ok let's deconstruct it:
dadrojanan (PGmc)- verb 'to shake' and accounting for gerundized form with the various stages of Germanic Mora / Nasal loss on unstressed word-finals, cognate to Norweigan dadra, G tattern
χarugaz (PGmc) < IE *kar 'hard' seein in Continental Celtic *karrikā 'stone' [thought to be borrowed from a non-IE source] as in OHG harug, OE hearg (where we see another loss of unstressed word-final)
-līk (PGmc) 'like' < IE *leig + adjective/noun/verb=> adjective, as in OHG dagalich 'daily'
which might possibly account for that- but i admit it's hardly conclusive, but as far as i want to go for something made up the timeline of various elements of Proto-Germanic of course cannot be explained since there is no point

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Well done, but still probably can’t account for the fact that it can’t mean anything or that this is probably a singular case of compounding of words, not to mention how easy I made it by not using sounds inexistent in German (Hochdeutch, not Germanic as a whole), like the |th| in English “think”; then you would have known for sure it can’t be German; just as if I saw a noun or verb ending in any consonant other than “n”,”r”, or “s” I would know it can’t be Greek, or that the form “makhā” (battle) cannot be Attic, because long a (ā) does not occur in such an environment in Attic, or that “thithemi” cannot be Greek, because aspirates (“th” here) do not occur in consecutive syllables, or that an –os nominative ending can’t be classical Latin, or that an |e| or |o| in Sanskrit cannot be original PIE etc.

As you of course know, there are laws that govern what goes and doesn’t go in languages, that is attested languages; of course there aren’t for Proto-languages reconstructed from PIE, but that was my whole point the quotes are not (cannot be) from a Proto-language because by their very virtue of being attestations of a language, they would place the language in question in the attested, not reconstructed language group! Primitive Irish is attested then, very poorly, and still the quotes don’t look like Primitive Irish, but I leave the specifics to others who have already pointed them out.

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Originally Posted by cmacq

Here my knowledge is indeed limited and I do have a simple mind, thus I'm not actually sure how you arrived at 'Best in battle,' for Catu-vellauni? Yet, if one takes the possible first element of Veru-lam-ium, one may find (I) fearr or air [as in Fer-gus], (OI) for, ferr, or vers, (OW/OB) guor, (Breton) voar and oar, (Gaulish) ver, vero, and viro, (Welsh) goreu, (OP) wirst, (Lithuanian) wirzus all meaning; top, raised up, better, best, foremost, most high, and/or of superior standing. The second element is also of some interest as it appears similar to (I) lamh, (OI) lam, (Welsh) llaw, (Cornish) lof, (OB) lau, lama, or plama meaning hand. Now, there is air-lamh; literally high-hand, to-hand; meaning ready. So, Veru-lam-ium may mean 'place of high authority?' Then by extension a possible Catu-verulamus could mean 'Best in Battle' or better still 'Battle Ready.'

Unfortunately, I'm no closer to how you arrived at 'Best in battle' for Catuvellauni. The only possibility I can see for the second element in Catu-vel-laun-i is (OI) fail, fel, fil, with a root of vel or val; meaning to wish or prevail. Now, the Old Irish fail or foil can mean a ring or circle, again from the vel root, which also can mean a circle or ring, as well as to cover or encircle. Here, we also have the Welsh gwal. The third element laun may be related to Ian, (OI) lan, (Welsh) llawn, (OW) laun, (Cornish) leun or len, (Breton) leun or lano meaning full.

I'm sure I've made a great mistake somewhere, but the name Catu-vellauni seems to mean something like 'battle drawn full circle?' Again, If so, I may suggest this could apply to a certain aspect of the patron deity [possibly The Battle Ender] of a given ruling faction within this polity?

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The people at L'Arbre Celtique agree with you about Verulamium:
http://www.arbre-celtique.com/encycl...tones-5593.htm
"La main large (la g&#233;n&#233;reuse)" - "The great handed (the generous)"

*Catu- for battle is widely recognised; it's the source of Irish cath and Welsh c&#226;d which both mean "battle". There are lots of Gallo-Roman names with this element - Catumandus, Catuvolcos, Catumaros, Catugnavus, Catunectus, Caturonus. *Wello- is cognate with the English word well and gives us modern Welsh yn wella 'improving, getting better' (and Irish fe(a)rr 'better'?) and the n is some kind of substantive affix before the plural -i. This is just my reading, apart from the *catu- bit, which is AFAIK universally acknowledged. Others have suggested "Battle Leaders" for some reason. You won't find much support for "full circle" because that would be pushing a contemporary English idiom onto 1st Century BCE Brythonic.

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And...
Elmetiacos this is me setting on a fence I see no need to cross. From what little I do know, I fully understand and agree with the merits of your argument, yet I wholeheartedly disagree that they apply to this particular topic. The reasons are firstly, as I pointed out above there is no good evidence that these Belgo-Canninefate tribes had even crossed over until the mid-2nd century BC. Secondly, this issue is not about Old Irish or Goidelic in any form. More to the point, by the late 1st century BC it remains very unclear what particular form or forms of Kelt were actually used in southeast Britain. Not to sound a daff, but it could have been some archaic type of Old Prussian, for all we truly know.

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I've said this! Unless your one of these weird Celto-sceptics, you have to admit that what was spoken was a form of Celtic - we have Celtic personal and place names far away from anywhere conquered by Belgic invaders.

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as never-written reconstructed lingoes go, how relevant would common-Kelt be, by the middle of the 1st century AD? Let the brickbats fly.

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Not relevant as a direct source, but still of some use. Curiously, what EB has currently is several proto-Celtic roots simply cut and pasted...

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

Wello- is cognate with the English word well and gives us modern Welsh yn wella...

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I assumed that this wello/vella/wella thingy had made its way back into Welsh (and Irish I may add) via the anglais or norvege, thus possibly not entirely IE. I did note it in Norse as vella? In this case doesn't well mean not 'better,' but rather 'bubble, boil, to raise up,' or 'swell' as in the Deutsch wellen or 'bubble?' Also, as in gaelic we have the use of fail, again from the vel root (circle), here for the Norse vella, no doubt to mean 'corrupted, putrefy,' and 'parboil.' Still, I thought ver was the root used for 'better' and vel for 'circle?'

Also, for lan, instead of 'fill/full,' it can mean 'a point, a blade,' or 'a sword?' Thus, Catu-vel-laun-i as 'Battle-prevail-sword,' or 'of the battle winning sword,' or again 'the battle ender/the thing or personage of discission,' no?

The problem with splitting it all up is that the element "Vellaun-" appears in lots of names. Cartivellaunus, Dubnovellaunos, Vercassivellaunus are all personal names in addition to Mr C. himself, and we also have the Catuvellaunes in Brittany (which basically wrecks my hypothesis by showing it can be a plain, ordinary tribal name... :shame: ) as well as another tribe, the Segovellaunes. Note the different plurals, though, -i versus -es: does this tell us something about declensions in Brythonic and Gaulish? Hmm...

Right, (not Latin nor Greek as almost if the recorder went native to indicate how uncouth they were?) I've seen that with tribal names a bit more in Britain, thoughout France/Belgium, and west/south/northwest Germania; and may I say of your above post, all very good points. Yet, from your list of male Britons we find Vellocati/Vellocatus. The possible second element of Vel-locat, looks a bit like the Irish clag or clog (bell), Early Irish clocatt (helment), Old Irish clocc, Welsh and Cornish cloch, Breton kloch, klokko, or kloggo, Lithuanian klage; with a possible root of klog or klag/clag? Still, I'm not in love with this wella, but you do have a very good point about Vellaun.

How is a user name significant anyway? It is a made-up handle to identify someone on the internet, and in no way requires any etymology or qualifications to back it up.

I do like reading all this information and discourse (a new name for the Sweboz?). I only wish it didn't take accusatory posts to elicit them.

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Originally Posted by Maeran

How is a user name significant anyway? It is a made-up handle to identify someone on the internet, and in no way requires any etymology or qualifications to back it up.

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Not for any edification, Elmetiacos' nom de plume is significant only in its obscurity, geo-temporalnicity (right), and ethno-consistency. I assume that he of course, knows this better than anyone.

Guys, something important just came up;

Do you think I have any time to grab some popcorn?

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Originally Posted by Hax

Guys, something important just came up;

Do you think I have any time to grab some popcorn?

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Fly away little Staring...

...fly, fly, fly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBLh...eature=related

And...

I just noticed the Catalauni, from the vicinity of Chalons en Champagne. Here, do we have Cata-laun-i (strangely similar to Catalan?) or is this not in anyway related the possible segmenting of Vellaun (Vel-luan-i)? I agree my retort remains very slim, so pardon as I digress.

Both Dumézil and MacCana have even suggested that the root wello- actually means "fish". So the tribe would be "battle fish".

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

Both Dum&#233;zil and MacCana have even suggested that the root wello- actually means "fish". So the tribe would be "battle fish".

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Was that MacCana or McCann? Not altogether sure if I'd want to swim with these fish/sharks as theres a sorted bit of history here? I'll give them wello for 'fish' after it was cooked in a 11th century water-filled pot, but that would make or take a lot of gall.

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Originally Posted by cmacq

Irishmafia

You're Todíneeshzhee, Hopituh, or Biligana?

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Biligana of course, one of the many hired educators who live out here teaching European and American history to disinterested and slightly annoyed Navajo kids. They pay attention when I teach basketball though! I hope that I wouldn't choose "Irishmafia" as an American ethnic pride nickname if I were Dine' :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by cmacq

Was that MacCana or McCann? Not altogether sure if I'd want to swim with these fish/sharks as theres a sorted bit of history here? I'll give them wello for 'fish' after it was cooked in a 11th century water-filled pot, but would make or take a lot of gall.

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That would, of course, make the well known French dish Poisson d'Avril.

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Originally Posted by Irishmafia2020

Biligana of course, one of the many hired educators who live out here teaching European and American history to disinterested and slightly annoyed Navajo kids. They pay attention when I teach basketball though! I hope that I wouldn't choose "Irishmafia" as an American ethnic pride nickname if I were Dine' :laugh4:

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One never knows; given the here and now, it did sound strange?

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

That would, of course, make the well known French dish Poisson d'Avril.

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Never heard this dull fish called a dish, and if so one boldly better served cold, no doubt. Overall, its too fowl and bony for my raw and totally unrefined taste, a bit like stalking off in a huff in search of untamed gawk. Although, in my vastly limited experience, both sad xenomorphs remain far too easy, to snag with the ill-tossed net.