Test Game

Most of the rules discussions seems to have boiled down to balancing the ranks. Since that's an area that would take too long to test anyway, I would be comfortable starting up a test game with the new rules. Specifically, I think we should test out the Civil War rules.

It doesn't really matter if the test game uses a mod or anything, but I would suggest creating an 'advanced' scenario to play it in. Pick a faction in unmodded vanilla M2TW, have someone play the game forward a while until there are perhaps 15 avatars, then group the avatars together into 3 artificial families and assign players to them. 2 of the families go to war against each other a couple turns in, and we see how the whole system works. All battles would be fought as AI Battles to keep it moving.

At the same time, we can keep discussing the rest of the rules, particularly the rank system. Opinions?

i like.

Sounds good.

I suggest either France or the HRE.

Spain would be good also...(or Crown of Aragon if SS 4.0)

It would provide some change in army composition. Plus it had at the time a feudal system much like the French one...

If someone feels like doing the work of advancing a faction to a good spot for the test game to start, I'm happy letting them pick the faction. I would recommend that we simply use the pre-existing KOTR installation version, since we know everyone already has that working properly. For the test it doesn't really matter what faction or mod we play with, since it's the basic mechanics we're looking at, not the campaign map, units, etc.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

It doesn't really matter if the test game uses a mod or anything, but I would suggest creating an 'advanced' scenario to play it in. Pick a faction in unmodded vanilla M2TW, have someone play the game forward a while until there are perhaps 15 avatars, then group the avatars together into 3 artificial families and assign players to them. 2 of the families go to war against each other a couple turns in, and we see how the whole system works. All battles would be fought as AI Battles to keep it moving.

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I have an SP game going right now you guys can use. It's an England Grand Campaign game, no mods. I'm at 1280, have 16 avatars spread all over the map, and have territory in England, Outremer, Tunis, and an army marching on Timbuktu.

Just say the word and I'll upload the save.

Turkey would be a good choice as well. Not sure if I still have a save from my old Turkey game, but it wasn't done using KotRfix.

I have an England save similar to PK's, also without KotRfix, but it's my 'only archers' game so all my generals have no combat traits. :laugh4:

I'll use KotRfix to advance France to a decent state today, assuming no one jumps up excitedly waving their hands in the next few hours. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

It would be best to have a save where there were a large number of provinces clustered together (i.e. all of France conqured or British Isles + parts of France). This will allow for a better civil war simulation, as a war between two Houses with provinces on opposite sides of the map would be very slow. I expect any mod we pick will have more provinces than vanilla, so this kind of expansion will be easier, but for the test game it might require tripling or quadrupling the starting provinces, depending on the faction chosen.

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

Turkey would be a good choice as well. Not sure if I still have a save from my old Turkey game, but it wasn't done using KotRfix.

I have an England save similar to PK's, also without KotRfix, but it's my 'only archers' game so all my generals have no combat traits. :laugh4:

I'll use KotRfix to advance France to a decent state today, assuming no one jumps up excitedly waving their hands in the next few hours. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

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Applying KotRfix to my save shouldn't be hard. I used to have it but I've unintalled/reinstalled M2TW a few times trying to get patch 1.05 to work.

Like I said, it's available and would require no extra work.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

It would be best to have a save where there were a large number of provinces clustered together (i.e. all of France conqured or British Isles + parts of France). This will allow for a better civil war simulation, as a war between two Houses with provinces on opposite sides of the map would be very slow. I expect any mod we pick will have more provinces than vanilla, so this kind of expansion will be easier, but for the test game it might require tripling or quadrupling the starting provinces, depending on the faction chosen.

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I have 21 or so provinces, but they are spread around. I have all of the British Isles and Caen (8 provinces) with 4 or 5 generals. An army with a general in Africa. Tunis with no general. And then Outremer. Which is pretty much all of it south of Turkey. And there, there are the rest of my generals from a few different families.

It's not ideal but it could be interesting. There are enough generals in Outremer to form two factions. And the third faction would be sitting off in England itself.

It's an option.

I agree with TC and think it would be best to have all the provinces close together so that the game can be quick. We don't want to have to wait for years before some of the factions can even get involved.

What about Kingdoms?

If we only use it as a test game it'll be fine and pretty much any faction in the Brittannia or Crusades campaign would work. Plus it's already sort of established.

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

What about Kingdoms?

If we only use it as a test game it'll be fine and pretty much any faction in the Brittannia or Crusades campaign would work. Plus it's already sort of established.

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England in the Brittania campaign would be perfect for what were doing.

I have a vanilla save game as France with 13 provinces and 11 generals, and all the territories are in France and Germany/Switzerland. We could use that?

I'm at 18 provinces with France, all of them connected except the ones on the British Isles, but only 10 generals so far. They'll come along soon, and I'll start manipulating them in via MoH. I should have this ready in just a bit.

:egypt:

The game stopped throwing me MoHs for some reason, so I had to go ahead until the two youngest French sons grew up. 16 avatars and 20 provinces. Here's the situation and save:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/NBTest1.zip

There are two nobles who are just about to return from going on Crusade and they possess the only dismounted knights in the realm. Their return would make a good trigger for the civil war. The King, his two sons, and one other general are on the British Isles, and would be a good third faction. Prince Louis and two or three other generals are in the south of France and northern Spain, making up another good faction. The middle nobles stretch from Rennes to Bern and could make up a good third faction.

Of course there are plenty of other ways to split it. Papal relations are near perfect, and we're only at war with the Reich, who won't accept a ceasefire no matter how many times I smash them and release the prisoners. I guess I could add money and buy them off, but it didn't occur to me before I uploaded.

:egypt:

If you need someone to play a lowly knight for one of the sides, I'm happy to volunteer. :yes:

I'll check the save later, but for now it sounds perfect.

I'd be happy to chip in as well.

We'll need 16 players, so I'd like people to volunteer. It doesn't matter whether you played in KOTR or not. Once we get the needed number, I'll assign people to particular avatars and tell them their rank and House structure. We can go from there. I will personally take a minor noble, probably in the House that starts off neutral, simply because I know the system better than anyone and it would be a better test if other people were King, Chancellor, and heads of the various Houses.

Current Volunteers (assuming everyone who has posted in here is volunteering):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

gibsonsg91921
GeneralHankerchief
Tristan de Castelreng
Privateerkev
Ramses II CP
Elite Ferret
Zim
Cecil XIX
OverKnight
TinCow

Still needed: 6

oh I suppose, if I must.

:inquisitive:

Don't know if I need to confirm that I am indeed volunteering, but I am.

Yep, I'm in, happy to play any role necessary.

:egypt:

I'll help.

woot!

Count me in. :2thumbsup:

I'd be happy to volunteer! It'd give me experience before the real thing!

Count me in also

Count me in if you still have room left.

Like TheFlax, if you still need spaces filled, I can step in.

I didn't play in the KotR, but I'd like to try this if I can.:egypt:

Wow, this is proving popular. We have exactly 16 with me. If one more person wants to join, I will drop out of the game as a player to make room for someone else. though I will monitor it closely and be available for questions. I will close recruitment after one more person volunteers or we reach Saturday morning, whichever happens first. The list of confirmed players, not counting me:

gibsonsg91921
GeneralHankerchief
Tristan de Castelreng
Privateerkev
Ramses II CP
Elite Ferret
Zim
Cecil XIX
OverKnight
deguerra
Ichigo
The Lemongate
TheFlax
rossahh
PrinceofTroy

I'm particularly pleased with the mix of new and old players. That should give us a good feel for how well it will work and whether people understand the system.

I am busy tonight and tomorrow night, but I will set up the game on Saturday and it should start then or Sunday at the latest. It will work as follows. I will take the save and use the console to arrange the avatars and armies into a situation that more closely mimics the start of a Civil War. Each avatar will be given a rank and told their House structure and who they are at war with, if anyone. I will assign the avatars to the various players, with a mix of veteran and new players at all levels except Chancellor. The Chancellor spot I will give to an experienced KOTR player simply for efficiency. Private and Royal Armies will be identified on the map, as well as owned provinces for each avatar.

I will create three separate Houses, which will contain all of the players. Two Houses will be at war, with one likely larger than the other. I will give a short IC explanation as to why the two Houses are at war. The third House will be neutral and will control the Chancellorship. The Faction Leader will also be neutral. After the game starts, everyone should simply play it as they want to. Neutrals can enter the Civil War if they wish and the Civil War can even be ended if one side wins or both agree to a Peace Treaty. It doesn't really matter to me. The game will last for 10 turns and we'll skip the Governing Body Session at the end. All Civil War battles will be fought as AI Battles and I will take care of that. Everything else will go according to the rules.

*phew* lucky you assumed I had volunteered otherwise I wouldn't have gotten in...

I would volunteer but unfortunately our computer's recovering from a virus, so I can't access MTWII for a couple of weeks.

Edit: Actually, I am able to participate in the test, as our PC died this morning, and my dad bought a Mac. So with the aid of an emulator, I'll now be able to play MTWII properly.

Just use bootcamp to put XP on your Mac. You didn't get the itsy HD didja?

:egypt:

Just thought I should bump the thread so everyone could see Ignoramus is now able to participate. :yes:

Sorry I dropped the ball on this over the weekend. I blame two unexpected nights of drinking, one partially-expected hangover, and a shiny new copy of EU3. I'll try to get it ready tonight.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Sorry I dropped the ball on this over the weekend. I blame two unexpected nights of drinking, one partially-expected hangover, and a shiny new copy of EU3. I'll try to get it ready tonight.

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Hey, one has to have priorities in life. I would have chosen the drinking too... :yes:

Ha, and here it was the mention of EU3 that caught my attention. How is it, Tincow?

Would very much recommend the Magna Mundi Mod (and its soon to be release Gold 2 Version) after you've played EU3 a little.

In itself, it is a fine game, but lacks charm after a while, because the game systems do not actually allow for very many actions.

With Magna Mundi, the whole thing becomes a lot more complicated, but you can also actually DO a lot more, plan a lot more and screw up a lot more. That, and they have done well at implementing features that direct the game towards plausible outcomes, which to me strikes a good balance between "historical events" that force the player down one path and the completely freeform vanilla EU3.

Granted, it will not be everyone's cup of tea, but I would def. recommend trying it out!

Oh dear, I'm afraid I've digressed from the purpose of this thread quite unexcusably :D

Very good so far, though I'm not sure if that's just because it's different. I love how open it is and the almost limitless possibilities that you have before you. The diplomacy system is great as well. I'm just playing on normal difficulty and it's not easy either. I've grown pretty large (as Genoa) and am trying to unite all of Italy, as well as conquering most of Central America, but I've lost two wars along the way. The first was right at the start of the game, when I lost my starting Crimean provinces which were too isolated to be able to support in a war. The second was an unintentional and very much unwanted war with France that happened when tiny Sardinia declared war on me and dragged France into it. I conquered Sardinia, but had to give France a province to get peace.

Right before I came to work, France declared war on me again and I'm probably going to get my butt whooped. They massively outnumber me and their units are of higher quality than mine. Fortunately, I managed to get an alliance with Castille recently and they have joined me in the war. Castille is about as strong as France, so my strategy is going to be to try and stay alive and hope that Castille will divert a lot of the French attention. It's going to be bloody, though, and I'll be very happy just to get a white peace.

So, yes... I like it.