-
What a pathetic stooge
Talk about pissing what little crediblity you have left in the world away...
So former U.S. President James Earl Carter recently visited Israel, Palestine and Syria. The stated purpose of the trip was to 'engage all sides', but in reality, the purpose of the trip was for somebody in the West to engage Hamas in high-level talks.
The governments of Israel and the US patently asked Carter not to make the visit. Hamas is one of the leading terror organizations in the world. They are dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel, and they've made various statements on the right of Jews to exist anywhere.
So, Carter, the ultimate egomaniac, tells the State Department to pound sand. He goes anyway, and holds a meeting of equals with Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal. Carter then proceeds to announce about how he's made progress, and Hamas will now agree to recognize the right of Israel to exist, if it passed a referendum among the Palestinian people.
As if to give the final F-u to his little prison-ho, Meshaal held a press conference three hours later to say that Hamas would not recognize the right of Israel to exist.
Great peacemaker, or pathetic fool who doesn't realize his time has come and gone? Let's review:
Hamas got: A former president of the United States to come lick their boots in front of the world's media.
Carter got: :shrug: His name in the paper's again?
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Heaven forbid we try to engage in dialogue to end the constant slaughter, even if it doesn't get us anywhere...
Because obviously the only way to end the constant slaughter is turn Hamas into glass and let the Israeli government have their way.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
how dare he try to come up something that might actually turn out to be a solution?!?!?!?!?! :furious3:
the nerve of that man!! :no:
I mean...it´s obvious that the right solution for this problem is just for both sides to keep blowing each other's up in new and ingenious ways....I mean...that has worked in the past right? :oops:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
There's no way the violence will end as long as terrorists such as Hamas are the political mainstream among Palestinians. Carter attempting to lend political credibility to such groups is not helpful at all.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeus Caesar
Heaven forbid we try to engage in dialogue to end the constant slaughter, even if it doesn't get us anywhere...
Because obviously the only way to end the constant slaughter is turn Hamas into glass and let the Israeli government have their way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
how dare he try to come up something that might actually turn out to be a solution?!?!?!?!?! :furious3:
the nerve of that man!! :no:
I mean...it´s obvious that the right solution for this problem is just for both sides to keep blowing each other's up in new and ingenious ways....I mean...that has worked in the past right? :oops:
Did you guys read the article? The Palestinian foreign minister said the meeting did absolutely nothing. Meshaal went out of his way to hold a press conference to contradict what Carter said after the meeting. How is that making progress? How is that working out a solution?
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Did you guys read the article? The Palestinian foreign minister said the meeting did absolutely nothing. Meshaal went out of his way to hold a press conference to contradict what Carter said after the meeting. How is that making progress? How is that working out a solution?
Errrrrr...Don it was talks about talks , you know like clinton and Blair and Bush Reagan and Thatcher and Major all had with terrorists , denying all the time that they would negotiate with terrorists and all the time the terrorists straight away making claims that they were not going to compromise on their demands .
Meanwhile Isreal who doesn't talk to terrorists is talking to Hamas about talks through Egypt and America is talking through Egypt and Saudi Arabia to Hamas about talks .
Quote:
they've made various statements on the right of Jews to exist anywhere.
yeah yeah yeah and only the Mormons will exist at the end of days ..or was that Jews or Christians or pastafarians
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
I can't say that this is having less effect than the official US and israel policy has...
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Did you guys read the article? The Palestinian foreign minister said the meeting did absolutely nothing. Meshaal went out of his way to hold a press conference to contradict what Carter said after the meeting. How is that making progress? How is that working out a solution?
it´s called trying....nobody said he was successful.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Guys, guys, this is how American Christians treat eachother.
In another thread Dave wrote that Carter's volunteer building project was 'building homes for useless leaches'.
Now his effort to get talks about talks going (isn't that how the spiral of violence was broken in Northern Ireland?) is called 'pissing away credibility'.
Can't be long now before someone calls the Salvation Army a '******* waste of good money'.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I can't say that this is having less effect than the official US and israel policy has...
What bollocks, the Israeli policy has lead lead to decades of terrorism and countless dead bodies on both sides. It's pretty decent by sadist measures. :juggle2:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Guys, guys, this is how American Christians treat eachother.
In another thread Dave wrote that Carter's volunteer building project was 'building homes for useless leaches'.
Now his effort to get talks about talks going (isn't that how the spiral of violence was broken in Northern Ireland?) is called 'pissing away credibility'.
Can't be long now before someone calls the Salvation Army a '******* waste of good money'.
You know, I can understand ad hominem attacks from others in this thread, but frankly Adrian, I thought you were capable of better.
Last time I checked, Gerry Adams didn't make it a point hold a press conference to publicly call George Mitchell a liar 3 hours after George announced the results of the initial visit. And I'm pretty damn sure neither Warren Christopher nor Madeline Albright specifically asked George Mitchell NOT to initiate ex-partae talks.
If that's the best you can come up with, so be it. But you're slipping.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Carter also did wonders for the Iranian issues. This guys is as worthless a tits on a bull or Katrina "victims". My only wish is that either someone commits this old bird into an abusive old folks home or the next religion of peace home video releases this anti-Semite d-bag getting a Middle east shave job while the barber praising Allah.
Care to critique this statement my old friend Adrian? Good to see you y theway. Being quoted by you has always bben a secret sourse of pleasure for me.:laugh4:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
You would think that the pressure of actually having to govern something would mellow Hamas out a little bit. That's how it usually works. Unfortunately, they seem to be taking the Mugabe/Castro path of blaming everything on foreign powers while doing nothing productive.
Poor Jimmy Carter. You would think he would be savvy to how much lying and two-faced deception goes on in the Middle East, but I guess he's getting duller with age. According to the article, however, he managed to get a letter delivered. That's something to boast about! That letter would never have made it without Carter's intervention.
Don Corleone, I don't think Adrian's comment was so very ad hominem. In his silly way he was making a valid point; some right-wing rhetoric pretends that all charity is wasted and all peacemaking is foolishness. It's a profoundly un-Christian perspective, which is why it's legit for A2 to point out that the same right-wingers who rail on the poor and destitute are usually also in favor of Christian supremacy. Bit of a paradox there.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
I'm all for peacekeeping. I don't consider myself a hypocrite for being for a strong foreign policy AND a Christian, but hey, by all means Lemur, call me one. Last time I checked, I'm pretty generous with the poor, and I'd put my tax returns against yours or Adrian's to prove my charitable giving.
My point is there is a difference between being a George Mitchell and a Neville Chamberlain. Both had the same stated goal. One was wise about the way he went after his goal, one wasn't.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
My point is there is a difference between being a George Mitchell and a Neville Chamberlain. Both had the same stated goal. One was wise about the way he went after his goal, one wasn't.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Care to critique this statement my old friend Adrian?
It's crap. https://img166.imageshack.us/img166/...hruggifps2.gif
Quote:
Good to see you y theway. Being quoted by you has always bben a secret sourse of pleasure for me.:laugh4:
Frankly, good Sir, I've missed your unreconstructed self. Good to have you back. Yeeehaw!
https://img88.imageshack.us/img88/24...ssmileysn7.gif
So how come you're out of the can so soon? Picked up all the soaps for that nice warden? :jester:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
A little word of advice, my friend Adrian... Never ablidge someone in a steamy shower to pick up their liquid soap for them.
:yes:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
A little word of advice, my friend Adrian... Never ablidge someone in a steamy shower to pick up their liquid soap for them.
:yes:
I think that's what the guy in my sig did. His glasses are still steamed up..
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
You know, I can understand ad hominem attacks from others in this thread, but frankly Adrian, I thought you were capable of better.
Hominem shnominem, Don. I am defending a Christian against
the 'reproach of man' (Psalm 22:6) here.
Seamus Fermanagh gave a much more balanced evaluation of Carter in #93 of the 'Worst President ever' thread, something I would expect from a (fellow) Christian. Ironically it's not Carter who is burning credebility, it's his American detractors who brand him a loser, an idiot, even a traitor.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Hominem shnominem, Don. I am defending a Christian against
the 'reproach of man' (Psalm 22:6) here.
Seamus Fermanagh gave a much more balanced evaluation of Carter in #93 of the 'Worst President ever' thread, something I would expect from a (fellow) Christian. Ironically it's not Carter who is burning credebility, it's his American detractors who brand him a loser, an idiot, even a traitor.
Is there anything wrong with calling Carter a loser? He is welcome at my table and, if he needed shelter, food, or drink - he can count on me. However, he was a hack as the President just as he is now a senile old codger. I would defend him from harm, but c'mon - he is an abject political failure.
He should be the leader of students for 60,000.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Poor Jimmy Carter. You would think he would be savvy to how much lying and two-faced deception goes on in the Middle East, but I guess he's getting duller with age.
I prefer "crazier", but I guess "duller" is close enough. :yes: He's apparently been going out of his way to oppose US foreign policy interests for quite a while now.
Quote:
It's a profoundly un-Christian perspective, which is why it's legit for A2 to point out that the same right-wingers who rail on the poor and destitute are usually also in favor of Christian supremacy. Bit of a paradox there.
Who, DD? I like him, but I certainly don't consider him representative of "right-wingers" on this board. Seeing as how AdrianII was replying to Don and not DD, I think he was most likely having a bit of fun and taking some pot shots- which is his right, but I think the change of tone probably came as a surprise to Don. :shrug:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
He's apparently been going out of his way to oppose US foreign policy interests for quite a while now.
You may be right there Xiahou , but then again since much amrerican foriegn policy has been complete bollox for quite a while now it shows that he ain't stupid
Quote:
Last time I checked, Gerry Adams didn't make it a point hold a press conference to publicly call George Mitchell a liar 3 hours after George announced the results of the initial visit.
Oh so when Mitchell said he was getting the guns out of politics Adams didn't say his gunmen hadn't gone away you know .
Try again Don :dizzy2:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
If the goal is for simply one less act of violence to be committed, a true believer in peace will talk to anyone, anywhere, anytime.
It takes guts and I applaud anyone who goes against the grain and takes a chance.
Communication is the key. If it doesn't work, fine, then let loose the dogs of war. But never should rage and cowardice disguised as upstanding nationalism stop any one man from talking to another if there is even the smallest chance that the end result will be a reduction in the level of violence.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Oh so when Mitchell said he was getting the guns out of politics Adams didn't say his gunmen hadn't gone away you know .
Try again Don :dizzy2:
So close, and yet so far....Survey says... :thumbsdown:
Would you mind showing me the link where Gerry Adams got up and held a press conference and said "everything that man just said is bollox", which is basically what happened here?
Nobody ever actually fulfills the outcome of a series of peace talks, at least not the early ones. But it's a new kind of 'screw you too' to hold a press conference just to publicly disclaim what your 'partner in peace' just said, especially something so fundamental as a right to exist.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
If the goal is for simply one less act of violence to be committed, a true believer in peace will talk to anyone, anywhere, anytime.
Too bad he failed miserably. Hamas has held up his visit as a sign of their own importance and at the same time, completely disavowed any of the things Carter claims they have said. He was used as a PR tool for Hamas and made no meaningful progress otherwise.
It's almost like the exact same thing that the State Dept warned him would happen happened. :idea2:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Too bad he failed miserably. Hamas has held up his visit as a sign of their own importance and at the same time, completely disavowed any of the things Carter claims they have said. He was used as a PR tool for Hamas and made no meaningful progress otherwise.
In our present world of some six billion people, it would appear from all accounts that close to all of them are willing to kill the other guy on account of this reason, that reason, or perhaps even the other reason. There is no shortage of anger, weapons, money to finance anger and weapons, nor people susceptible to the joys that anger and weapons provide. That being said, if don't mind worth a shmoo's tuckus if one guy takes it upon himself to take the road less travelled and try as he might to sit and talk for a moment in hopes that during the five minutes he's talking to the other guy, the other guy won't be killing anyone. It would be, one might say, five minutes well spent.
To be honest, and this is just my mind, great doubts come to me about those with lots and lots guns who stand in fear and rage at those lone individuals who dare to sit and talk. It makes the people with weapons look weak and dishonest, and weak dishonest people with lots and lots of guns is a patently bad idea.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Would you mind showing me the link where Gerry Adams got up and held a press conference and said "everything that man just said is bollox", which is basically what happened here?
Well Don it might help if the people you are talking about had actually said that ..or anything remotely like it . As it certainly isn't basicly what happened , besides which you could follow the State Depts comments about Hamas follow up press statement for a little thought , because currently your reaction to Carters talking to Hamas is exactly the same as Al-Qaidas reaction to Hamas talking to Carter .
Quote:
Hamas has held up his visit as a sign of their own importance and at the same time, completely disavowed any of the things Carter claims they have said.
Another one that didn't follow the state dept .
Oh what was it exactly errr...public rhetoric , pinch of salt . :laugh4:
Now you could believe completey the public rhetoric of the Hamas , but it would be as wise as believing Charlie Haughey or Margaret Thatcher saying they doesn't negotiate with terrorists
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Well Don it might help if the people you are talking about had actually said that ..or anything remotely like it . As it certainly isn't basicly what happened , besides which you could follow the State Depts comments about Hamas follow up press statement for a little thought , because currently your reaction to Carters talking to Hamas is exactly the same as Al-Qaidas reaction to Hamas talking to Carter .
So basically, then, no? You can't think of a time when Gerry Adams held a press conference to announce the exact opposite of what George Mitchell had said 3 hours prior in wrap-up session of a series of talks? Didn't think so.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
I prefer "crazier", but I guess "duller" is close enough. :yes: He's apparently been going out of his way to oppose US foreign policy interests for quite a while now.
well...considering the route US foreign policy has taken for the last few years that can only be taken as a sign of good sense on his part.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
So basically, then, no?
errrr, when did you stop beating your wife Don ?
Quote:
You can't think of a time when Gerry Adams held a press conference to announce the exact opposite of what George Mitchell had said 3 hours prior in wrap-up session of a series of talks? Didn't think so.
Since that isn't what happened with Carter/Hamas your point is ?
Did Hamas publicly contrdict some of what Carter said afterwards :yes:
Did Adams publicly contrasdict some of what Mitchell said :yes:
So Don you is setting up one of them scarecrow thingies made of straw .:yes: well done .
As I said Don you are taking the same line as Al-qaida is taking in relation to this meeting , does that put you in good company ?
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Hamas has held up his visit as a sign of their own importance
Uhm. Hamas is important...
Like it or not.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Hmm, maybe, just maybe, giving a terrorist group dedicated to the destruction of a democrat state international recognition and legitimacy isn't such a great idea.
What did Carter gain, hmm, for his pandering to terrorists? Hamas was treated as though they were a legitimate state of sorts, and did they act anything like it, or just continue as the murderers they are?
Oh, but wait! They were talking, and talking is always good. Talk, talk talk, it's like a inherent good in itself. You're a morally better person if you talk. The actual results don't matter, heavens no. That'd be much to demanding. And we should never question if perhaps talking was counterproductive.
Like, by giving the impression a bunch of terrorists are some sort of partner in peace. Or if Hamas never really wants peace at all.
CR
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
God loves the terrorists as well. :shrug:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Talk, talk talk, it's like a inherent good in itself. You're a morally better person if you talk. The actual results don't matter, heavens no. That'd be much to demanding. And we should never question if perhaps talking was counterproductive.
I totally agree that too much peace talk is bad for your political health. Peaceniks and Christians in particular have a tendency to overdose on it. I don't think it hurts to negociate with anyone and everyone in a given conflict, though, as long as it's not being done from a position of weakness or with an eye to the appeasement of foces that, as a consequence of being appeased, become all the more agressive and greedy. Hitler became more power hungry for it, Sadat and Begin were brought together by it. It failed in Lebanon in the 1970's, it recently succeeded in Northern Ireland.
Where is goes wrong is when negotiation becomes an ideology in itself.
For professional reasons I have a lot of really crappy books, reports and related stuff in my personal library. Every now and then I get rid of a hundred or so, to make a clean slate. Some I keep. Among the worst (and worth keeping as a warning) is a booklet from the Nobel Foundation, The Words of Peace (2001). It contains extracts from the speeches of all Nobel Peace Prize winners since 1901. They're all in there, from Bertha Suttner to Desmond Tutu, Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama. And let me tell you, it's one huge load of vacuous, superficial, irresponsible, sentimental crapola. There is not one sensible viewpoint, well-wrought piece of analysis or interesting snippet of information in the entire booklet.
Not even from, say, an Andrei Sacharov, who apparently froze like a bunny in the headlights when he was awarded the Prize in 1975 and started blabbering about parallel universes and a 'community of hope'. Sacharov was a courageous man who suffered from a humongous lack of judgement during most of his adult life and tried to make up for it afterwards. He was a prominent scientist who helped develop the Soviet atom and hydrogen bombs before discovering his conscience. Yet even as a brilliant scientist he had nothing worthwhile to contribute to 'peace thinking'. What makes this all the more disappointing is that he could be truly visionary in other areas, as witness this passage from 1974: 'I foresee a universal information system that will give everyone access at any given moment to the contents of any book that has ever been published or any magazine or any fact. The UIS will have individual miniature-computer terminals, central control points for the flood of information, and communication channels incorporating thousands of artificial communications from satellites, cables, and laser lines. Even the partial realization of the UIS will profoundly affect every person, his leisure activities, and his intellectual and artistic development. But the true historic role of the UIS will be to break down the barriers to the exchange of information among countries and people.'
In short, I can recommend this booklet to everyone. :laugh4: :whip:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
If britian had decided to stop the peace talks becuase the IRA was part of the goverment the bombs would still be going off today, thank god at least someone is trying to talk to Hamas.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Well if he achieves nothing he still hasn't made the situation worse, so who cares?
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
I totally agree that too much peace talk is bad for your political health. Peaceniks and Christians in particular have a tendency to overdose on it. I don't think it hurts to negociate with anyone and everyone in a given conflict, though, as long as it's not being done from a position of weakness or with an eye to the appeasement of foces that, as a consequence of being appeased, become all the more agressive and greedy. Hitler became more power hungry for it, Sadat and Begin were brought together by it. It failed in Lebanon in the 1970's, it recently succeeded in Northern Ireland.
Exactly. Communication with a perceived enemy is not weakness, it is a powerful tool for change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Where it goes wrong is when negotiation becomes an ideology in itself.
Negotiation is certainly an art unto itself. And amongst those who practice it, not on behalf of the state, but simply for the sake of keeping the lines of communication open, it can be an ideology in itself and that is not a bad thing. In the same way, I think, that it is good to have avowed pacifists in society. When everyone seems on the verge of some form of antagonism, I like the idea that there is a man somewhere who, regardless of circumstances, says, "I will not kill another man."
It takes a lot of guts to loook like a coward sometimes.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
it´s called trying....nobody said he was successful.
Just like I'm trying not to laugh. :blank:
Beirut you're missing his point entirely. At best Carter is communicating from a position of weakness. Communication with an enemy can also be perceived as a weakness and the meaningless platitude for change sounds like an Obama speech. Change to what? It also makes you sound like the people Adrian sites in his last paragraph. If during a period of conflict you're able to force you opponent to the negotiating table, it is an admission of weakness on his part. I suggest you read about the negotiations between the US and Vietnam in Paris. The shape and size of the table matters.
Carter has noting to negotiate with other than goodwill.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Hmm, maybe, just maybe, giving a terrorist group dedicated to the destruction of a democrat state international recognition and legitimacy isn't such a great idea.
What did Carter gain, hmm, for his pandering to terrorists? Hamas was treated as though they were a legitimate state of sorts, and did they act anything like it, or just continue as the murderers they are?
Isn't Hamas the democratically elected majority party of the PA? Sure they're terrorists and all that, but aren't they the result of what we wish for in the Middle East?
Isn't there another democratically elected state in the region that certain members of our administration want destroyed? :inquisitive: So far, our Middle East democracy policy consists of not speaking to democratically elected governments. Doesn't sound very sensible, especially given our dependence on the region. If we spread democracy across the Middle East, we won't be able to get oil from anywhere! :thinking:
Carter probably is being taken advantage of, but at least he's making an attempt. He's probably not going to solve anything, but I don't expect much from a guy that dropped out of my alma mater. ~;)
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Carter has noting to negotiate with other than goodwill.
And so has George Bush, who is yet again made to look like a fool by Israel, in public, this time over a letter he sent. Or didn't, as the White House claims.
Or did, as the Israelis say.
'Didn't', says Rice.
'Did,' says chief of stafff Weissglas: 'and Rice even confirmed it'.
You know what I believe? I believe that Israel is speaking the truth, that George Bush is lying again, and that nobody cares anymore because nobody believes this guy anyway.
Speaking of pissing away credibility... https://img247.imageshack.us/img247/...lsmileytq5.gif
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Just a touch or hyperbole there. Currently he has over 100,000 things to negotiate with, and then some. Carter has...?
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
At best Carter is communicating from a position of weakness. Communication with an enemy can also be perceived as a weakness and the meaningless platitude for change sounds like an Obama speech. Change to what? It also makes you sound like the people Adrian sites in his last paragraph. If during a period of conflict you're able to force you opponent to the negotiating table, it is an admission of weakness on his part. I suggest you read about the negotiations between the US and Vietnam in Paris. The shape and size of the table matters.
If Carter was communicating from a position of weakness I doubt this kerfuffle would have erupted. It is precisely because his communication skills and openess are feared that people are ranting and raving. Personally, I think this is great. You've got the US and Israel, a strategic cross-ocean mega-nuclear superpower, and they're all a flutter because one guy is having tea and talking to another guy. It's like watching a dictator with a huge army and media machine (Hello? China?) tremble because one guy with a pen is willing to tell the truth.
I love guys who can do that. :sunny:
Nobody is being forced to do anything here. There is no table shape to hold a grudge over. Carter is talking to a group of people as an individual, not a state representative, and his only intention as far as I see is to determine if there is any middle ground that will lower the cycle of violence. You need to talk to do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Carter has noting to negotiate with other than goodwill.
I won't condemn a man for having goodwill. Goodwill saves lives.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Every time I read one of Beirut's posts, I get an urge for a holiday in Canada...
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Nobody is being forced to do anything here. There is no table shape to hold a grudge over. Carter is talking to a group of people as an individual, not a state representative, and his only intention as far as I see is to determine if there is any middle ground that will lower the cycle of violence. You need to talk to do that.
I won't condemn a man for having goodwill. Goodwill saves lives.
Whoa, stop. He most certainly is not talking to "a group of people" as an "individual." What is this group of people? Who is this individual? I know you're a big lumber, beaver eating Canuk but step back from that tree once in a while. We can also see what good has come out of the talks: Nothing.
Yes, it also paves the road to hell.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
We can also see what good has come out of the talks: Nothing.
What good has come from a decade of bombing?
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
What good has come from a decade of bombing?
Very shortsighted. They reason they resorted to suicide bombing is that they can't dislodge Israel by military force. These people are in it for the long haul. A decade is nothing.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Very shortsighted. They reason they resorted to suicide bombing is that they can't dislodge Israel by military force. These people are in it for the long haul. A decade is nothing.
And yet you don't think it's shortsighted to disregard talks because of a few failed attempts...
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
And yet you don't think it's shortsighted to disregard talks because of a few failed attempts...
Define a few. :inquisitive: And don't think that "talks" aren't held at less than official levels. Carter has nothing to add but words. No one supports him and it only serves as a political capitol for Hamas. People really overemphasize his contribution to the camp David accords. What is the guarantor of that treaty? The constant presence of American troops in Sinai.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Define a few. :inquisitive: And don't think that "talks" aren't held at less than official levels. Carter has nothing to add but words. No one supports him and it only serves as a political capitol for Hamas. People really overemphasize his contribution to the camp David accords. What is the guarantor of that treaty? The constant presence of American troops in Sinai.
Nobody supports him? What? A lot of europeans certainly support what he has done.
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Whoa, stop. He most certainly is not talking to "a group of people" as an "individual." What is this group of people?
Far as I understand the group of people is Hamas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Who is this individual?
James Carter, former President of the United States.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
We can also see what good has come out of the talks: Nothing.
Too bad. Don't care. Try again.
We celebrate the soldier who tries again and again and overcomes overwhelming odds to take the enemy postion and kill on behalf of the state. Fine. I am also willing to celebrate the person who tries again and again and overcomes overwhelming odds to reach the enemy's viewpoint and stop the war itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Yes, it also paves the road to hell.
Yeah, it might pave it. But the guys walking on it are the ones who are too afraid to talk and always go for the guns. They who paved it are sipping champagne with the gods. :angel:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
:shame: Dude, you missed my crude innuendo. :no:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
:shame: Dude, you missed my crude innuendo. :no:
I saw it. :sunny:
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Very shortsighted. They reason they resorted to suicide bombing is that they can't dislodge Israel by military force. These people are in it for the long haul. A decade is nothing.
Hold on there Vlad , wasn't Fatah big into the old suicide bombing thing ?didn't they want the destuction of Israel ?
They were talked to weren't they , and since they lost the democratic election they really have been flavour of the month for the democracy loving freedom mongers .
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Very shortsighted. They reason they resorted to suicide bombing is that they can't dislodge Israel by military force. These people are in it for the long haul. A decade is nothing.
Very shortsighted. The reason the IRA started bombing is that they can't dislodge Britian by military force. These people are in it for the long haul. A decade is nothing.
Well thankfully someone didn't think that and negotiations were allowed to continue with the IRA
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Oh dear , Bush is a pathetic stooge who has just pissed away all his credibility .
Yes indeed , he met the leader of a terrorist group and made some rather upbeat comments about what he had achieved in the talks and how it was going to be all OK .
Straight away Abbas contradicted everything he had said and said no progress was made and the sticking points are the same as they have always been and the US will not address them , also saying that when in the past they have said they will address them have done absolutely nothing about them .
So now then , is it worse when someone contradicts the "leader of the free worldTM" who is acting in his official capacity for his country or when someone contradicts an ex-leader who is acting as an individual ?
-
Re: What a pathetic stooge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Oh dear , Bush is a pathetic stooge who has just pissed away all his credibility.
You don't say. :mellow:
Quote:
So now then , is it worse when someone contradicts the "leader of the free worldTM" who is acting in his official capacity for his country or when someone contradicts an ex-leader who is acting as an individual ?
That's not a very tough one, Mr Tribesman. I'd say the first one since both Israelis and Arabs nowadays call him a liar to his face, which, as a matter of fact, he is - and not a very good one either, which makes him even less reliable as a partner in an sort of negotiation. All politicians are liars and have to be liars if they want to be successful, but when a politician's lying is at odds with the very negociations he is conducting and the very aims he pretends to be pursuing, I would say he is a total failure.
Hm, yes, I think that about sums it up. :coffeenews:
