How do you defeat the Mongols?

This is a rather long post but please bear with me.

It's about turn 78 in my current English campaign (my first on M2:TW) and I am now experiencing the most annoying event yet. On a series of crusades and expansions, I have conquered ever territory from Antioch south to Jerusalem (in addition to my expanding European territories. Just as I drove off a Turkish Jihad and was preparing an invasion oh Egypt proper, I received a message informing me that the Khanate of the Golden Horde was on my doorsteps.

First of all, I thought this was very odd. Why did they come in around Bagdad, south of the Caspian? I am no expert on this area of history, but I had always thought that they conquered the Russian Steppe all the way up to Hungary. Is it historically accurate to have them enter that far south? I thought that perhaps several more armies would enter from north of the Caspian see and invade Russia that way, but I was immensely disappointed.

King Henry the Crusader, Honorable, or Just (depending on which of his many names you prefer to call him by) has 8 command, 10 chivalry, 8 authority, and 10 piety. His army consists of crusader knights, dismounted crusader knights, dismounted feudal knights, armored swordsmen, crusader sergeants/spearmen, longbowmen, Crusader Knights, Feudal Knights, Mailed Knights, and Knights Hospitaller. The core of his army that was with him from the beginning, when he came over nearly thirty years ago on his first crusade, has between 6 and 8 experience. The rest (mainly the newly recruited troops such as Knights Hospitaller and armored swordsmen) have varying levels of experience. They all have whatever armor benefits are granted by an armorer (heavy mail I think). As you can see, this is pretty much the ideal English army, especially when complemented by a few local horse archer mercenaries.

King Henry has not fought a battle in which he did not achieve an overwhelming victory with extremely few casualties (I fight almost all my battles, rarely auto-resolve). But now, on the eve of his invasion of Egypt, the Mongol Horde swarms in with about 4 full stacks after massacring about 2 full stacks of Turkish armies.

The worst part is that two over their commanders have almost 10 command and 10 dread. It is ridiculous. So I march Henry north and confront the weakest Mongol armies first.

After annihilating two stacks of Mongols (the weaker ones), I pull back into my fortresses to recruit new units and retrain old ones. My losses are heavy. This is not the type of warfare I'm used to. I am used to having the range on my foes with my longbowmen, I could force them to attack unless they choose to sit tight and withstand the barrage. Now, my longbowmen are massacred after only firing a few rounds. I am used to pinning my foe with infantry and enveloping him with cavalry. Now, I find myself enveloped by swift horse archers who prefer the "Parthian shot" to engaging my knights in melee. I am used to sweeping my foe aside with an implacable charge of heavy cavalry. Yet when I charge the Mongols, they swiftly dodge my charge until it runs out of impetus, and then slams into my cavalry (now separated from my infantry by this rash charge) on all sides with heavy lancers and bodyguards. When I manage to charge their cavalry, it's like hitting a brick wall. I can't rout the damn things, they don't die.

The entire Mongolian army is made up of archers, horse archers, and lancers! How on earth do you counter that with a high English army?

I massacred two full stacks, true, but with heavy casualties. When I finally engaged one of those stacks under those generals with 10 command and 10 dread, however, I found myself to be fighting for my life. I achieved a Pyrrhic victory, with about a 1.3-1 ratio on casualties, killing only slightly more than I lost. That would be disappointing but acceptable under normal circumstances. I had driven off 3 full stacks of angry Mongols, the best foes I have ever faced. But there is a little problem.

In addition to that one stack that is still remaining, FIVE MORE STACKS have entered the middle east, this time further south than before, and they are coming right at me. Thankfully I am economically prosperous, but I only have so much manpower. My veterans are almost all dead, so I will be dealing with a fresh batch of troops for my next battles.

Can someone please give me advice on fighting the Mongols? They will wear me out by attrition if nothing else, and King Henry will end up being killed on some foolish desperate attempt to break the enemy line. I am thinking of requesting a crusade on a nearby province just so I can get some friendly catholic armies in here to help me deal with these horsemen from hell.

Which reminds me--do the Mongols actually ever take a settlement, or do they just wander around massacring armies whenever they see one?

Thanks for bearing with me here, sorry if I am a tad long winded. :smash:

Riding out and meeting the Mongols head on with an infantry and knight based army can be suicide. It sounds like you got in a few good shots though and that's good! I think though, you're discounting a good tactic by focusing on fighting them in the field. My advice is you should let the Mongols come to you, force them into siege battles and make them throw their horsemen against your castles and such. They will likely still plow through your cities so try to defend those as best you can, but against your castles they will suffer huge loses from your defenses.

Though from the numbers you're reporting it sounds like you just won't have the troops to fend them off for long. One of the other members around here might be able to help you with more advice, I don't have much experience with the Mongols in M2TW.

Oh, and yes the Mongols do take settlements, but normally (in my experiences) they wait until they take something profitable like Antioch to settle down.

Calling crusades on nearby settlements is a useful thing. The other catholic nations might (probably will) lose their armies, but that will give you enough time and also weak your european enemies.
You can also use assassins to kill their best generals and lower their morale.

Other thing: Since you are using England, then get those longbows to wreak havoc on them! Place stakes, use loose formations and protect them with your spearmen! I also found ballistas very useful when they get at close range.

But the main thing you should worry about is that, as an englishmen, your troops are not as mobile as theirs. You should deny them this advantage by choosing your battles well. Try to fight only behind walls or at brigde crossings. That way you can use your superior archers advantage. One other place to fight is to fight on high places such as hills.

Oh, you can also recruit some mercs to fill your weak spots, such as cavalry and light infantry.

BTW, in what dificulty are you playing?

When the Mongols land (ahum) near Baghdad they always head to Antioch. they may sack a city or two on their way but Antioch was coded in their DNA.

How to defeat them? This is depending on your own strenght, so i'll give you two basic tactics used by me or other Orgahs.

1. Your position is weak because you can't reinforce your depleated armies. Let them siege you and defend the gate with stakes. This requires an army of longbows, spear militia and armored swords. Since they will be attacking Antioch it is a good idea to have a reserve army near by (on a ship) to reinforce the city. The Mongols will always attack with at least two armies.

2. You have plenty of reserves. Fight them in the open. You will need two armies with seven or eight yeomen (or better), armored swords and some heavy cavalry. Deploy your army on a hill or a ridge and deploy the stakes some 50 meters in front of your frontline. Once the battle starts retreat your archers to your frontline. Since your longbows out range their HAs you can win. The Mongol heavy cavalry is neutralized by your stakes. If done correctly you can defeat two stacks per battle losing some 30% to 40%. That is why you should bring two stacks so you have a fresh one for the next two stacks.

Don't be afraid of the dreaded Mongol generals. Your goal should be to kill them at all costs.

Thanks for the help everyone, good tips all around. Though I have a question regarding one of your tips:

Some of you advise sheltering in my castles and fortresses. From my experience, the AI doesn't storm settlements, it just besieges them. I've been afraid to take shelter in my settlements because I fear being starved out, which usually results in losing a massive ammount of men without killing any of the enemy. Do the Mongols actually attack?

Get ready for the big WWII war of attrition. When I face the Mongols I spend ridiculous amounts of my total TW time (eg 80% fighting them). Spam assasins, hold river crossings, get duel archer/melee troops if you can. Plus anything with stakes. The best way to beat them is at range, as that way even if you lose in the end you won't face an early rout and are guaranteed to severely weaken them.

Yes, the Mongols will assault besieged settlements when they think they've built up a suitable amount of siege equipment. Note that I said "think" because in my experience the Mongols will underestimate the amount of equipment it takes to get into a city defended by ballista or cannon towers. Don't worry about being starved out;it hasn't happened to me yet and I'm in the late 1500s on normal time settings. In fact, the nomadic factions like the Mongols have a tendency to spontaneously abandon sieges and move in another direction. A good strategy is to amass spearmen in your cities and let the poor horsemen ride straight into them as they try to squeeze through chokepoints in your walls. They don't charge and tend to take overwhelming casualties.

The Mongols will go after Antioch when they spawn in the Levant, but first they have to gather their Horde. Since there are three waves, and the AI is rather stupid, that involves a lot of wandering back and forth doing pretty much nothing in between the arrival of waves.

Since you're the English you have the easiest time crushing the Mongols of any other faction. All you need are longbowmen of any flavor. Bring a full stack of Longbows, build a stake fort with a protected line of retreat, and sit back to watch the carnage. The AI always attacks if you have something like 1.2 times as many archers has it has, so they'll always come to you. Mongol melee cavalry can't get through the stakes, so they just sit there and die. Mongol horse archers get owned by your foot archers. Your foot archers outnumber and outrange theirs. Your Yeomen and Retinue longbows are better in a melee than any of the Mongol infantry, while your regular longbowmen are about even but they'll have numbers on their side.

You literally cannot lose. Worst case scenario you run out of arrows and have to retreat, but since you didn't bring a general, who cares? No bad traits will accrue, and as long as your line of retreat is secure you just march off the field in complete safety after pinning a few hundred losses on the Mongols. Rinse and repeat. You can reinforce, they can't.

You absolutely do not need spearmen, which are just a poor man's replacement for stakes. Having some light cavalry might help if you want to chase when the Mongols retreat, but I'd rather have more hands on bows, plus you run the risk of smacking your own cavalry into your own stake line.

:egypt:

Yeoman Longbows may actually be better against the Mongols than the Retinue's since their AP hammers come in handy if they are caught in melee. Also English Knights are much better than Feudal Knights since they have AP axes.

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

The Mongols will go after Antioch when they spawn in the Levant, but first they have to gather their Horde. Since there are three waves, and the AI is rather stupid, that involves a lot of wandering back and forth doing pretty much nothing in between the arrival of waves.

Since you're the English you have the easiest time crushing the Mongols of any other faction. All you need are longbowmen of any flavor. Bring a full stack of Longbows, build a stake fort with a protected line of retreat, and sit back to watch the carnage. The AI always attacks if you have something like 1.2 times as many archers has it has, so they'll always come to you. Mongol melee cavalry can't get through the stakes, so they just sit there and die. Mongol horse archers get owned by your foot archers. Your foot archers outnumber and outrange theirs. Your Yeomen and Retinue longbows are better in a melee than any of the Mongol infantry, while your regular longbowmen are about even but they'll have numbers on their side.

You literally cannot lose. Worst case scenario you run out of arrows and have to retreat, but since you didn't bring a general, who cares? No bad traits will accrue, and as long as your line of retreat is secure you just march off the field in complete safety after pinning a few hundred losses on the Mongols. Rinse and repeat. You can reinforce, they can't.

You absolutely do not need spearmen, which are just a poor man's replacement for stakes. Having some light cavalry might help if you want to chase when the Mongols retreat, but I'd rather have more hands on bows, plus you run the risk of smacking your own cavalry into your own stake line.

:egypt:

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Lmao, that sounds like a rather cheap--but effective--tactic.

You just need to beat them at their own game...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...oors150tv0.jpg
https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...f4e40d4118.jpg

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Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr

You just need to beat them at their own game...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...oors150tv0.jpg
https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...f4e40d4118.jpg

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:jawdrop:

You can try this, https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79195 it is a prety god post on the topic. Also search the forums, there is a countless amount of posts about the mongols. But if you are going to fight the mongols you have to conquer entire Palestine AND Egipth before that. O and you need god spears. A lot of them. An dwith England you dont have them. So it is going to be fun.

I'm doing an SP game as the English right now and the Mongols are pathetically easy.

Put a few longbows in every settlement in their path. When they assault, set up the longbows down by the gate and set up stakes. When the battle starts, run the longbows up to the walls. The mongols will break the gate and charge in. And you will then see a huge pile of horsey-kabobs form.

You can do the same at river crossings.

You can try it on the open field if you have 8-10 longbows but watch your flank. I was surprised to see that the AI was smart enough to try and flank me and I had to quickly bolster one side before they rolled me up.

In unmodded M2TW, you can usually crush them by overwhelming force, say 10+ stacks with cavalry etc thrown at them.

In modded M2TW, its usually more difficult.

Either way, as England, you are probably playing one of the easiest factions to beat the Mongols with.
Your army composition should be as follows:

1 General
7 Retinue Longbowmen
6 Mercenary Spearmen (the best spears you can get as England)
4 Dismounted English Knights
2 Mailed Knights

What you basically want to do is entrench your position with a ring (not wall) of stakes and have your spearmen right behind your longbows in a thin row. DEK at the flanks behind the spearmen.
Mailed Knights behind your DEK and your general at the very center back.

You shouldn't be able to lose in a field battle like ths unless you place yourself at the bottom of a canyon.

If you don't mind exploiting the AI, lay the stakes in a wall / row a far way ahead of your intended position with the rest of your army already placed. Then start battle and move your longbows back to your army. The AI does not consider undefended stakes (stakes without troops nearby) and tends to run into them if your longbows can fire at them.

If you don't like field battles, ford (not bridge) battles are to your advantage and citadel battles obviously because the AI generally doesn't manage to storm further than wall 2 due to bad coding that even us modders cannot fully fix.

Why not bridges? They work pretty well for me.

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Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry

Why not bridges? They work pretty well for me.

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I've had problems placing stakes on the road. With some bridge maps, I have to place my men further back and make a staggered wall of spikes with men in the gaps. It still works but it isn't as pretty or effecient.

Plus units walk faster over bridges than over a ford, giving you more time to pick them off. Besides, ford means you have a slightly higher ground and your units won't randomly march forward trying to get onto the bridge during battle and thus getting themselves killed.

The problem is that they have hundreds of stacks, all with 6-9 experience and 8-10 dread/command generals. It's bloody impossible to contend with that.

I kept training armies of knights, armored swordsmen, and longbowmen and sending them out under my best generals. I would attack the Mongols and kill as many as possible before doing the same thing again. It just got old after a while. Virtually all the tactics mentioned above require DEFENDING, but no matter how many stacks I sent out and placed right in the path of the Mongols, they would never bite. They would besiege settlements but never attack. Because of this, I had to attack, and there is simply no way I can beat them when attacking. Plus, I couldn't call a crusade on the Mongols (and get some assistance from fellow Catholics) because they didn't have any provinces. The nearby Turkish provinces weren't a choice on the list, heck, there weren't any Muslim on the nations, just Catholic nations. His holiness went and excommunicated half of bloody Christendom!

So I quit my campaign. I'm trying a Spanish campaign now, it's lots of fun! When the Mongols take Antioch, I'm going to request a crusade there and send all of Christendom's might down upon those barbarians. My Spaniards will revenge my Englishmen...hopefully.

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Originally Posted by TWFanatic

The problem is that they have hundreds of stacks, all with 6-9 experience and 8-10 dread/command generals. It's bloody impossible to contend with that.

I kept training armies of knights, armored swordsmen, and longbowmen and sending them out under my best generals. I would attack the Mongols and kill as many as possible before doing the same thing again. It just got old after a while. Virtually all the tactics mentioned above require DEFENDING, but no matter how many stacks I sent out and placed right in the path of the Mongols, they would never bite. They would besiege settlements but never attack. Because of this, I had to attack, and there is simply no way I can beat them when attacking. Plus, I couldn't call a crusade on the Mongols (and get some assistance from fellow Catholics) because they didn't have any provinces. The nearby Turkish provinces weren't a choice on the list, heck, there weren't any Muslim on the nations, just Catholic nations. His holiness went and excommunicated half of bloody Christendom!

So I quit my campaign. I'm trying a Spanish campaign now, it's lots of fun! When the Mongols take Antioch, I'm going to request a crusade there and send all of Christendom's might down upon those barbarians. My Spaniards will revenge my Englishmen...hopefully.

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Really? They attack me all the time. They assault my settlements constantly and I'm always able to chew up at least 2 of their stacks every time they do it. I once ate up all 3 waves in one turn because they kept coming across the river crossing one stack at a time. (I'm not bragging or anything because it's just a matter of laying stakes. It's just to show that I find them to be very aggressive which helps me because I find them easy to defend against.)

What patch are you running?

Even if you're technically the attacker as long as you have somewhere around 1.2 times as many ranged units as they have, they will come after you once the battle begins. Even at river crossings. So attack away, make your stake fort per my suggestion, and tear them apart. :yes:

:egypt:

I found one thing you do not want to do. Do not attack the Timurids with an all cavalry army and autoresolve. I suffered my worst defeat ever; 450 some to 54 for the Timurids. (I bet an all peasant army would do better even without a general.) Then the Timurids attacked a small stack of mine which had a mix of unit types and they did much better - but still got trashed.

I find the AI is much more willing to attack river crossings than cities, especially with a full stack defending, and for some reason it always does attack one stack at a time a Privateerkev mentioned. If you have at least 4-5 stake-laying archers holding a river crossing against the Mongols is easy, but even without stakes I much prefer defending a bridge to defending a castle.

Like most ppl, Ill try to get the Mongols to attack a settlement or bridge.
Other than castles bridge defense is the easiest form in MTW2 at least compared to MTW1 w/ multiple crossings available. Plus you can position siege engines and missle troops to maximum effect as opposed to stringing them out over a series of walls.I have trouble placing stakes on the roads though,(and rarely seem to play a faction with stakes available)so Ill usually try to block the entrance with a siege engine on 1 side which works pretty much the same if you have pikemen to throw in the hole.

If you have a upgraded citadel or fortress it is rare the AI will EVER be able to take it over, even with 3 stacks against 1 and the 1st walls taken it is highly unlikely that any AI force would suceed. They are simply to incompetent. Simply withdraw most of your forces to the 2nd/3rd layer and wait for your towers and missles to slowly destroy em all.

I have also tried to wear down the stacks as they appear b4 they all have entered the campaign map, attacking is abit easier against multiple stacks than defense because the AI usually dosent charge at you straight away, so you can wear em down with large missle stacks and withdraw them once missle-less or threatened. In all honesty tho, the Mongols never give me much of a headache... in any of the preset defensive scenarios listed above victory is nearly certain. The Mongols for all their bluster and fancy horses are entirely useless when it comes to sieging a city and their inf are a bad joke, so long as you are not trying to defend against them on open ground you should be ok.

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Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry

I find the AI is much more willing to attack river crossings than cities, especially with a full stack defending, and for some reason it always does attack one stack at a time a Privateerkev mentioned. If you have at least 4-5 stake-laying archers holding a river crossing against the Mongols is easy, but even without stakes I much prefer defending a bridge to defending a castle.

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The only catch is that some Mongol stacks have rocket launchers and trebuchets so you need some trebuchets of your own for counter-battery fire. If you have no artillery, and are attacked by one of these stacks, you need to do something else. Which is, lay stakes at the crossing, but then put your archers on loose formation and along the banks of the river. Also, pull the rest of the army way back so they don't get bombarded. Your longbows' arrows should reach to the other side of the river. Once you cause enough casulties, the AI finally attacks and impales itself on your stakes. You'll lose a lot of archers doing this but it's safer than charging across the crossing yourself into a barrage of arrows, boulders, and rockets.

Ive yet to see a Mongol stack with either a trebuchet or cannon unit (or any seige engine for that matter). Assume you mean Timurids?

Mongols have trebuchets and rocketlaunchers in their later stacks.

I have foot-in-mouth disease :help:

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Originally Posted by Eikon the Magistrate

Ive yet to see a Mongol stack with either a trebuchet or cannon unit (or any seige engine for that matter). Assume you mean Timurids?

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Nah, as FH said, the later waves of Mongols have artillery in some of the stacks.

The Timurids are another matter. I have a much harder time taking them as the English because;

a.) They have long range artillery (Panzerphaunts)

b.) I've seen Elephants trample stakes. (though the stakes might still be there, the image dissapears. Regardless, the Elephants don't seem effected.)

So, I try to take them by building Cannon towers in every settlement and just wait for them to assault me.

I can take them in the field (especially if I have cannons and merc Panzerphaunts for counter-battery fire) but I take major casulties.

Ballistae are great for elephant killing. One shot, one kill, plus the added bonus of amok :grin:

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Ballistae are great for elephant killing. One shot, one kill, plus the added bonus of amok :grin:

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Yeah but the range stinks. They can just destroy my ballista before they get in range of my stuff.

So, I hire all the merc Panzerphaunts I can and recruit a few cannons. I make their Panzerphaunts my priority and try to knock them down before they do too much damage.

Meh, those elephants need a direct artillery hit to die and afaik serpentine doesn't kill them on impact, only a flaming ballista does (or for that matter, a flaming catapult or trebuchet or bombard). Still ballista is the most accurate and isn't all that easy to hit for them I think. But then in my more recent games I just swarm the elephants with 2H and spears.

I find in vanilla the Timurids (not the Mongols) seem to be very prone to the passive AI bug when attacking river crossings. Thus, you can just fill half your stack with cannons and pound them from across the river while they just stand there if you fancy a really boring way of beating them.

But otherwise I would generally recommend to take them on in sieges instead. Or even in the field, by the time they show up you should have essentially unlimited resources to fight with.

As for Mongol siege weapons in bridge defense, why not just hang back out of range until they start to cross? Especially if they will be forced to charge through a nice stake obstacle to get at you.

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Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry

I find in vanilla the Timurids (not the Mongols) seem to be very prone to the passive AI bug when attacking river crossings. Thus, you can just fill half your stack with cannons and pound them from across the river while they just stand there if you fancy a really boring way of beating them.

But otherwise I would generally recommend to take them on in sieges instead. Or even in the field, by the time they show up you should have essentially unlimited resources to fight with.

As for Mongol siege weapons in bridge defense, why not just hang back out of range until they start to cross? Especially if they will be forced to charge through a nice stake obstacle to get at you.

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Whenever I've tried that, the Panzerphaunts nail my cannons from accross the river. And their Elephants come over, go right through the stakes, and trample my Retinues. I can win but I take more casulties than I'd like and I am usually in no shape to face another stack.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Meh, those elephants need a direct artillery hit to die [...]

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Which is why you shoot a whole lot of arty at them. :D

8 Culervins and 30 Panzerphaunts (2 cannons and 15 elephants per unit) tend to throw enough junk their way that something is bound to hit them. :yes:

Elephant cannons don't count as true artillery in that a direct hit won't kill. Only some artillery can kill a unit that as more than 1 hitpoint in 1 shot.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Elephant cannons don't count as true artillery in that a direct hit won't kill. Only some artillery can kill a unit that as more than 1 hitpoint in 1 shot.

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Their really really long range and they knock stuff down so they are good enough for me. :2thumbsup:

If 30 rounds are flying at once at the same unit, it will rack up hits soon enough.

I love Panzerphaunts... :yes:

Bah! Cannon towers stink! Force those smelly Timurids to cross the river to get at you and you'll tear those elephants apart. The best way, IMHO, to deal with Timurid elephants is to hire the Mongol style mercenary rocket launchers in the Sarkel-ish area. A couple of shots, even if they don't hit, will drive the elephants amok. If your faction has musketeers they can do a decent job as well, all predicated on defending a river.

Also massed arrow fire, non-flaming, tends to do it as well. Once the elephants are amok, you just have to hold the line and let them do half the work for you. See the end of my TE AAR for an example.

Oh, and I rarely find the Mongol artillery to be any sort of threat. Just like your own artillery, most of the time it misses, only the AI is too stupid to figure out any system like 'aim for the middle of the largest concentration of troops.' Send down a weak company to soak up all those shots and otherwise ignore them.

:egypt:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

Bah! Cannon towers stink!

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I rather enjoy cannon towers. They punish the stupidly passive AI as it just sits there and refuses to move. :2thumbsup: