Pedites extraordinarii are champions!

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ites_extra.gif

I didn't have any in my 1.1 Romani game until the Polybian reforms came around, and I had more money. I attach a single unit of them to every consular army (I currently have three such armies, one in Spain, one in Italy and one in Sicily), to be directed by the general himself.

Several times they've won the battle for me, or otherwise just been heroes who never broke and stood firm even when massively outnumbered.

Against the Gauls, they broke the Gaesatae. In a battle against the Arverni, they killed one of their chiefs. In another battle against Gauls, they took fire from archers and slingers, standing firm and acting as cover for my own slingers. Then held against four or five times their number of the enemy while the rest of the army outflanked the mob. In a recent battle, they held the left and lost only a handful of men, despite being in contact with the enemy the entire time.

They're heavy infantry with AP weapons and solid morale, which means that should be expected, but they still surprise me.

They're truly champions, and worth every penny.

Of course they are. Just like all the other romans :2thumbsup: .

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Originally Posted by Jaume

Of course they are. Just like all the other romans :2thumbsup: .

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Strictly speaking, they're Italians rather than Romans.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Strictly speaking, they're Italians rather than Romans.

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Yeah sure, and Seneca, Hadrianus and Traianus were all born in Hispania, but it makes no sense to affirm that they were Spaniard.

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Originally Posted by Jaume

Yeah sure, and Seneca, Hadrianus and Traianus were all born in Hispania, but it makes no sense to affirm that they were Spaniard.

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Which is a long time after all of Italy was finally given the full citizenship, and even then extended to other regions.

At the time of most of the game, Romans were very particular about who had citizenship, and until the end of the Social War, neither Italians nor those from communities with the Latin Rights were considered "Roman".

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Which is a long time after all of Italy was finally given the full citizenship, and even then extended to other regions.

At the time of most of the game, Romans were very particular about who had citizenship, and until the end of the Social War, neither Italians nor those from communities with the Latin Rights were considered "Roman".

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I didn't know that. Anyway, I mean just like all the roman army remaining, which is more correct, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Jaume

I didn't know that. Anyway, I mean just like all the roman army remaining, which is more correct, isn't it?

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Again, no. Half of a proper consular army was composed of the socii or allies, it was one of their duties in being part of the Roman confederation to provide soldiers. The pedites extraordinarii were the best troops from the allied part of the army.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Again, no. Half of a proper consular army was composed of the socii or allies, it was one of their duties in being part of the Roman confederation to provide soldiers. The pedites extraordinarii were the best troops from the allied part of the army.

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?

Even if the army is composed by strangers, it is the roman army.

Quintus, I think he's just talking about the Roman unit set- as in, the units that Romans can recruit in their factional MICs.

Meh. You'd be surprised as to how champion like Belgae Milnaht can get. I was seriously impressed with their abilities; and that for someone who's been spoiled with quality Greek Infantry like Hypaspistai. They are deceiving, those Belgians - on first sight you wouldn't give 'em half as much credit as they deserve...

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Meh. You'd be surprised as to how champion like Belgae Milnaht can get. I was seriously impressed with their abilities; and that for someone who's been spoiled with quality Greek Infantry like Hypaspistai. They are deceiving, those Belgians - on first sight you wouldn't give 'em half as much credit as they deserve...

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I suppose that's just the way Belgians are...



:clown:

As long as they stick to supplying beer and choclate that is. :clown:

Nice post and I agree.

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Originally Posted by Jaume

?

Even if the army is composed by strangers, it is the roman army.

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They're not Romans, though. That's the whole of the point. That's why the Social Wars were fought, because the allies sweated and bled and died for the Republic, yet were treated like second-class citizens. It took their willingness to fight Rome for them to eventually get the same rights as Romans enjoyed.

All being in service of the Roman Republic isn't the same as all being Romans.

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Originally Posted by Chaotix27

Quintus, I think he's just talking about the Roman unit set- as in, the units that Romans can recruit in their factional MICs.

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Even so, those troops, if you've got a historically-accurate composition, should only make up half of your force. So the distinction does matter, because they're not the majority. If your army is only or mostly composed of those specifically Roman troops out of your factional MICs without any Samnites, Bruttians, Lucanians, Campanians or others, it's not a realistic one.

Right, I use them as an early mini Marian Reform.

Pseudo-Marian/Gracchian Reform? I have that too when holding about 35 provinces: no more Velites, Accensi, Equites Romani and Hastati are recruited. Hastati are replaced by Principes, the rest by foreign auxilia. Very helpfull when you use houserules to limit recruitement according to the towns' size.

.....

On topic: Pedites Extraordinarii realy rule. Recent results form the African front:

- One unit of them was able to cut its way through the Sacred Band when assualting Karthago and still had some 90 men standing.

- The same unit (after beeing reinforced) stormed the walls of Atiqa and took a unit of elite Lybians (the green guys) on its own. In the meantime a second unit of those Lybians beated the hell out of three units of Princpes and was only defeated by two units of Triarii joining the show.

And that was just the green Extraordinarii who was fresh raised in Rome for that campaign, not the double silver-chevron unit that is fighting in Spain for now 15 years.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

I attach a single unit of them to every consular army (I currently have three such armies, one in Spain, one in Italy and one in Sicily), to be directed by the general himself.

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You have three Consuls? :oops:

Two are with proconsuls, rather than the actual consuls of the day.

Talking of which, I have a lot of them in my game. The majority of my family members over 40 have been consul, of late it seems almost everyone is being elected to office in their year, even the plebians.

Are the Native versions of these good enough?

Have had some interesting times with both the Pedites Extraordinarii & Milnaht in my Aedui campaign.

3 Units of Milnaht did most of the work of conquering the British Isles with only one fairly minor retraining & some helping hand from the javelins of a bunch of other units.

AI keeps sending mini-armies (~8 to 12 units) at my cis-alpine cities, with an average of about half the units being PEs. Mediolanium got down to about 800 citizens left at one point from having to replace so many diced Botroas :ahh:

Pressure only really eased off when I got some Gaesatae & Solduros around.

Something I think I'll have to try is to send some Milnaht down for the pending Italian campaign & see how they go toe to toe with the PE :beam:

How do the Milnaht compare to Bataroas? Are they worth the extra cost and hassle?

Oh, and Pedites Extraordinarii NEVER tire when you use guard mode. It's eerie to see them outpace your exhausted Leves during a chase.

Heh.

Sreni Pattya Yoddaha. They will mince your beloved Belgians and Pedites Extraordinarii.

Look scary! Never been in that part of the map myself, perhaps its about time I tried my hand at a Baktria campaign...

My experience in the field is that yes Milnaht are significantly better than Bataroas.
Looking at the stats its not so clear except for the skill which has a pretty big effect on survivability in a sword fight.
Milnaht also have advantage in & mental/discipline/training.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Meh. You'd be surprised as to how champion like Belgae Milnaht can get. I was seriously impressed with their abilities; and that for someone who's been spoiled with quality Greek Infantry like Hypaspistai. They are deceiving, those Belgians - on first sight you wouldn't give 'em half as much credit as they deserve...

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I use them in my Casse and Aeudi campaigns, and whilst their good, I'm certainly not overly impressed by them, because they take to many casualties in combat.
I like heavy inf with heavy armour, that is more likely to be still standing on it's own two feet, after a hard scrap.

The Pedites extraordinarii have that heavy armour which makes them harder to kill/break. The AI seems to favour them, as 2 of my Seleukid armies had to kill alot of them to gain Italy.

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Originally Posted by Olaf The Great

Are the Native versions of these good enough?

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You mean Samnitici Miltes? They are excellent stormtroopers themselves but won't win when facing Extraordinarii on a fair footing. I use the Samnitici very much in Epeirote campaigns, and they are good against everything. But when facing Extraordinarii one-on-one the Extraordinarii usually have the last 20 or so men standing.

In one game I had the PE against spartans, the elite's of both armies charged each other.

The PE won because I sent triarri to join them.

Pedites are trully great, I must admit. They can be a real pain in the @$$, especially when you play with phalanx-based factions. They are very flexible and extremely good and efficient swordsmen. When I conquer Italy, I alway include Samnites for their flexible formations and create pseudo-legions with Thureophoroi and the like. Really amazing what such an army can do:yes:

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Originally Posted by konny

You mean Samnitici Miltes? They are excellent stormtroopers themselves but won't win when facing Extraordinarii on a fair footing. I use the Samnitici very much in Epeirote campaigns, and they are good against everything. But when facing Extraordinarii one-on-one the Extraordinarii usually have the last 20 or so men standing.

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According to the unit cards thread stickied (which are from 0.81, granted) Saminitici Milites are better; 4 points more armour and an additional 0.01 on lethality. The only thing pedites extraordinarii have better is 2 points of morale.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

According to the unit cards thread stickied (which are from 0.81, granted) Saminitici Milites are better; 4 points more armour and an additional 0.01 on lethality. The only thing pedites extraordinarii have better is 2 points of morale.

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That was a statting error. I mean, how on earth could a simple pectorale provide more protection than a full breastplate? According to the old 1.0 recruitment viewer (which can still be downloaded from the EB website), the extraordinarii now have 12 armour, compared to 9 for the milites. The milites still got a slightly higher lethality (0.11 to 0.10), though.

Yep these are my favourite shock troops while playing the romani. I have 3 units in each army.

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Originally Posted by Digby Tatham Warter

I use them in my Casse and Aeudi campaigns, and whilst their good, I'm certainly not overly impressed by them, because they take to many casualties in combat.
I like heavy inf with heavy armour, that is more likely to be still standing on it's own two feet, after a hard scrap.

The Pedites extraordinarii have that heavy armour which makes them harder to kill/break. The AI seems to favour them, as 2 of my Seleukid armies had to kill alot of them to gain Italy.

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I've pitted Milnaht with great success against Aedui Solduros; Roman Pedites Extraordinarii and Roman Camillan Triarii. In my Casse campaign. You shouldn't use them as infantry of the line due to their somewhat limited numbers but you can make more than excellent use of them as alternative Gaesatae; however Gaesatae with more armour and AFAIK less cost as well as wider AOR...

It's of course how you employ them; but they really make short work of all the aforementioned troops in a well coordinated charge against the enemy line. The key is to make them run until they are *inside* the enemy formation then alt+right click at the unit you want to litterally decimate. And decimation it shall be... :skull:

Let's say that Sweboz bodyguards were seriously not amused when they encountered my somewhat seasoned (+2 exp; +1 armour) Belgae Milnaht... Especially not when it also turned out that I had Iosatae and chariots for support.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Heh.

Sreni Pattya Yoddaha. They will mince your beloved Belgians and Pedites Extraordinarii.

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Well they might; but there are some issues with Sreni vs. Milaht:
1) The use of their AP sword-axe is somewhat limited by the lack of armour on the Milnaht;
2) Where are you going to get Sreni from in Milnaht country (and vice versa) ?
3) AOR is roughly equal; but the Sreni cost a heck of a lot more than Milnaht do AFAIK;
4) While both troops don't have great armour; the Milnaht at least get a very trustworthy shield somewhat lacking on the Sreni there;
5) The Milnaht get javelins which makes them slightly more useful when deployed as alternative Gaesatae (i.e.: shock troops in reserve to deliver the crushing final blow).
6) On the upside however the Sreni do get that AP attribute and higher attack (dunno actually never payed much notice) ...

However I would prefer the lighter bow-armed Indian infantry: same sword; but *with* a large fair-range bow as well as bigger numbers AFAIK. Considering both won't last too long under heavy missile fire; at least the lighter ones can return the favour a bit...

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2) Where are you going to get Sreni from in Milnaht country (and vice versa) ?

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Hey, I've shipped them to Demetrias, Gallia isn't that much further!

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Originally Posted by Hax

Hey, I've shipped them to Demetrias, Gallia isn't that much further!

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Wow, must have been a hell of a long journey... I wonder how an Indian would react in such cold climats as the heavily forested lands of Gallia:laugh4:

It wasn't actually that hard. I just built a ship at Patala, ported them to Charax Aspinou, then a march past Seleukeia and Syria until I reached Antiocheia, took another ship from there to Sardis, where they meeted up with the rest of my elite army.

Yeah I've done similar: once or twice, when my armies were done conquering the Indos valley (or what little thereof lies on the EB map) I found myself thinking 'nice, but what am I to do with them now?'. To which I answered myself 'well, I was planning on that invasion of Greece anyway; and I can do with some seriously mean archers and elephants... off you go lads; the pirate hunters will take you to Charax...'. :juggle:

I like doing that aswell, marching a kickass unit across the world for a battle:yes:

And then having to retrain them after that...the horror.

Well, usually after a year of ten I just edit the export_descr_buildings and make them a regional unit for Antiocheia only, to represent that the elite training of those soldiers has been taken over in Antiocheia.

Can't say I ever bother with retraining, not worth the hassle of trying to shuttle troops back to wherever you recruited them. Easier to just draft in replacements by merging other units. Besides it's highly unrealistic.

I like the PE's. . . only they and the Lugian swordsmen have been able to stand up in a 1v1 with my Elite Thracians.
The PE suffered a bit from their low lethality (compared to falx), but they made a game of it before their witless Roman (AI) commander got his empty head cut off by a different falx.

All in all a very good troop type, but I prefer elites to have a bit more punch.

I just had another battle where they were badass. Send them to protect my cavalry as I drove off about four units of skirmishers, who having run out of javelins charged. They didn't kill more than a handful of the extraordinarii in the minutes of contact before support arrived, and lost a sizeable chunk of their own number too.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Can't say I ever bother with retraining, not worth the hassle of trying to shuttle troops back to wherever you recruited them. Easier to just draft in replacements by merging other units. Besides it's highly unrealistic.

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Depends. It could represent better organized recruitment - either the warriors are trained in India, and step in service, so to speak, in Antiocheia as planned, OR, the would-be-warriors travel to Antiocheia to be trained there, perhaps in a colony of Indian subjects of the Seleukids.

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Originally Posted by The General

Depends. It could represent better organized recruitment - either the warriors are trained in India, and step in service, so to speak, in Antiocheia as planned, OR, the would-be-warriors travel to Antiocheia to be trained there, perhaps in a colony of Indian subjects of the Seleukids.

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Ive always felt retraining in EB works rather well. I mean its also unrealistic for many factions to recruit a group of soldiers of exactly the same size on each occassion. Surely for example when the sweboz chiefs called the tribes to war they just all rocked up, got divided into rough companies and headed for the battlefield. Its a very Roman invention to standardise the number of troops in each army so precisley. And Im sure even then, there was considerable variation. The call up for the wars vs Hannibal for example.

especially when fighting in home territory it seems very realistic that factions would fill out the ranks with new recruits quite often.

The better argument against retraining for the human player seems to me that the AI doesnt do it. But then again the AI gets considerable advantages in other areas. :juggle2:

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Originally Posted by Cambyses

Its a very Roman invention to standardise the number of troops in each army so precisley.

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Oh hoh hoo, just wait until TPC gets here... :>

Now I'm no expert, but considering how many thousands of years of history came before the Romans, i's silly to assume they made the first standardized army. There was the Persian Ten Thousand Companions, for one thing. Not to mention the ~7000 years of fighting in Mesopotamia before Rome ever showed up.

What makes it more ironic is his username. :wiseguy:

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Oh hoh hoo, just wait until TPC gets here... :>

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Yeah ,He will come with his new friend ,That Pahalav warrior (Statue) :wink:

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What makes it more ironic is his username.

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:laugh4: