English Invincible

As the title says, I have been finding the English to be invincible. I form a stack of 1 General, 2 Spear, 2 Fast Cavelry and the rest Longbows of some sort or another. I put the longbows in a line not too long about 6 units wide, the spear in a schinton at their sides and the cav at the back waiting for the rout.

Every single AI army I face is utter toast with me taking usually less than 50 casualties. The stakes make the english invincible. OFC with 15 units the AI is always going to attack. Even up against 2 or 3 full stacks of Mongols whom I consider the most overpowered in the game I win. I just sit there shooting all my opposition to death. Their is absolutely no tactics at all. Anyone else discovered this?

Right now I have an army sitting outside Constantinople - they have been on 3 crusades never lost a battle and each unit is 3 gold chevrons. The speech the general gives is briliant because he says something along the lines of "your bravery gentleman but the enemy to shame, they must fear your superiority."

I decided not to attack the portuguese or spain and let them get Citadels and full stacks of troops. Well to cut a long story short this unit of longbows cuts down 2 stacks of Aventurors, knights, templors, canons, etc with the loss of 15 men.

At first I just enjoyed mowing down the opposition, but now I am thinking are longbows overpowered?

I find the english very strong near invincible when defending, but less so when in the role as an attacker especially against a highly mobile army of calvary / calvary missiles. The longbows themselves are not overpowered but the denfensive stakes they deploy can be considered overpowered.

England aren't especially overpowered; if you fight against them as another faction, you'll find them easy enough to beat. And you'll probably find it's possible to get similar results against the AI playing as any faction.

The English do have a unique advantage against the Mongols, though, since they are the only faction which can field plentiful, powerful, stake-equipped foot archers. These are pretty much the worst nightmare of horse archer/heavy cavalry factions. I find they don't tend to fare so well against the Timurids; elephants don't care about stakes!

So I wouldn't say they are overpowered, merely powerful. They will be beaten by the heavily armoured genoese crossbows after all, and I suspect also by musketeers. In fact considering that England has only mediocre cavalry and its infantry are mostly of the bugged 2-hander variety, longbows are really the only thing England has going for it.

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Originally Posted by CynicalP

I find the english very strong near invincible when defending, but less so when in the role as an attacker especially against a highly mobile army of calvary / calvary missiles. The longbows themselves are not overpowered but the denfensive stakes they deploy can be considered overpowered.

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The AI will always attack you if you outnumber it by 1.2 to 1 with archers. Trust me with 15 archers - there is never a situation where you need to attack the AI. So the AI has to charge a barrage of highly lethal long range arrows just to get into melee range with the enemy. Once it gets there it the takes a huge hit from the Longbowmen and Yeoman AP maces. 1 on 1 Yeoman archers will take out any unit in the game in a fontal attack. take 60 knights and 60 yeomen for example on an open plain. By the time they reach the Yeoman they will be at 40/50% of their original numbers. As soon as the maces hit they rout.

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Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry

So I wouldn't say [longbowmen] are overpowered, merely powerful. They will be beaten by the heavily armoured genoese crossbows after all, and I suspect also by musketeers.

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That's what I thought before running tests; i.e. that Milan had the SAS of missile units with her Genoese Crossbows. Pitted against each other one-on-one however, Longbowmen will massacre the Genoese simply by their devastating shooting rate.

Having seen this in effect I get really irritated when fielding my own crossbow units because of how long it takes them to reload. Crossbows are accurate and highly damaging, yes; but when it comes down to brass tacks you need a unit that'll actually have the speed to loose off the majority of its ammo, cutting the enemy down before they can shoot back. That's why I love longbow units.

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Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry

In fact considering that England has only mediocre cavalry and its infantry are mostly of the bugged 2-hander variety, longbows are really the only thing England has going for it.

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Don't forget Armoured Swordsmen - 1/3 cheaper upkeep and slightly better armoured than DFKs. Aggressive sieges are much easier to execute when you can afford enough decent heavy infantry to do the job properly.

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Originally Posted by Vikingmad

The AI will always attack you if you outnumber it by 1.2 to 1 with archers. Trust me with 15 archers - there is never a situation where you need to attack the AI.

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That's a very interesting piece of information. I've always read players' accounts of how devastating stakes can be. But I've found the AI is hardly ever on the attacking stance in battles - probably because my armies are cavalry and infantry heavy. I'll try this tactic out.

It seems to me that to make the longbowmen effective you need to take them off of skirmish mode and micromanage their targets, concentrating fire on certain threatening AI units. Otherwise, I have found that they will run out of arrows. The ones that can use fire arrows should be useful at making elephants rum amok, but I can't remember doing such because it has been so long that I had such a battle, if ever, because it is so easy for England to win way before the Timurids show up.

I seem to remember them being depressingly ineffective against elephants, generally I find that unless I have something that is causing casualties to the elephants they will never panic. The only thing I find that really works well is javelin cavalry, with artillery a very distant second.

Though, I should point out that I did my England campaign when I first got the game, before patching at all. Thus, I mostly remember fuming at the screen as a single unit of Mongol bodyguard chewed its way through three units of "good against cavalry" heavy billmen without a single casualty. England might have improved a bit since then.

I can't imagine using billmen against the Mongols. Perhaps peasants would be less effective. Elephants really, really hate flaming ballista bolts. Most artillery is so inaccurate that using it against elephants just becomes a matter of luck. I so vividly remember having 2 of my rented elephant units go amok in about 20 seconds of combat when they go too close to ballistas. I've never had much luck with cannons hitting elephants. The culverin and serpentine do get some hits at times. I once got them to go nuts by charging into their posteriors with some Hospitalers who were able to kill a few.

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Originally Posted by Old Geezer

rented elephant units

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LOL, that made me laugh...

I did the same recently just to see what they can do, I've never played with elephants before. I charged them into a few units of spearmen, and the darn wusses route, the elephant not the spearmen. They didn't go amok, they just routed.

In my first campaign ever, as Spain (which turned out to be easily the most enjoyable), I had a fantastic war with the English in northern france. It was really epic - there were about 7 or 8 stacks involved in total, and I had some desparate moments with reinforcing garrisons in the face of yet another english army. It wasn't a gradual victory where I slowly pushed them back, it was a back-and-forth conflict which ended climactically with me invading Britain itself. So yeah, England are tough to play and excellent opponents if they develop well:D

My current game as Milan, I'm fighting the english right now. They seem to love making demi lancers and armored swordsman. After destroying many of their stacks, I haven't seen a single unit of longbowmen. When they have archers in the stack it'll be some peasant archer unit. Needless to say my army is rolling over them without much of a resistance.

Here's a question, if I run my cavalry around the stakes, and hit their archers in the back. Their archers in turn runs to the other side of the stakes, will my chasing cavalry be hurt by the stakes? Now logic will say no, since the cav is not coming in through the pointy end of the stake, but does the game make that distinction?

No, cavalry will not be harmed by charging over stakes "the wrong way". I think it will disrupt their charge somewhat, however. In addition, they can even cross stakes from the front so long as they slow to a walk to do so.

regarding your tact... what if ...

a. your attacking your oppenents?!?! and thus without a protection of your stakes??

b. if your oppenents have even a couple of catapults / ballistas to force you out of your position?!?!

c. you only have two cavs, even if they're high level knights they will still be overran by multiple stacks of other cavs as long as the quality isn't too far off.

d. longbow's effectiveness against engaged enemies is much less obvious. they still have the same issue as other bows /x-bows that if fired in the upward arc instead of direct line their accuracy goes to hell.

against such tacts, in multiplayers , I'd just try to go for infantries with good shield bonus and a lot of cavs (perferablly some of them javlin variety) I will move my entire line against you at the same time, with all my infatries in loose formation, since i out Cav you by a mile I have no fear of your cavs running through my loose formation. so now you'll be choosing to shoot at those loose formation high shield infantry comming right at you, or shooting at the fast moving cavs who'll probably close the gap before you can get more than 2-3 vollies off. once your cavs is beaten. your two group of merc spear or spear milita does nothing against 6-8 stacks of horses. I'd either just completely ignor your spears until my infantry get there or I'll just blast them to shreads with javlins.

that or I go for 2 stacks of catapults and simply force you out of your stakes. then head on cav charge your bows long bows are good. but its not going to devastate a similar / superior stacks of heavy (or even light) cavs coming your way in two volly or so , which is about how many it can get off before a fullspeed horse close the gap.

almost any faction can make the AI look stupid in this game if you been playing for awhile, the English's biggest advantage isn't the longbow, it's their starting position and situation. they always have a homebase that's basically immune to assaults while their oppenents faces multi front battles.

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Originally Posted by Lord Fluffy

Here's a question, if I run my cavalry around the stakes, and hit their archers in the back. Their archers in turn runs to the other side of the stakes, will my chasing cavalry be hurt by the stakes? Now logic will say no, since the cav is not coming in through the pointy end of the stake, but does the game make that distinction?

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Just give it a try. I defended a city with stakes behind the gate and when the enemy routed I ordered my general and cavalry to charge the enemy. When they passed the gate their numbers decreased like hell and I lost my general, who was my king with lots of stars, dread, authority and whatever. Stakes are deadly to cavalry running through them, but not to cavalry marching through them.

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Originally Posted by Monsieur Alphonse

Just give it a try. I defended a city with stakes behind the gate and when the enemy routed I ordered my general and cavalry to charge the enemy. When they passed the gate their numbers decreased like hell and I lost my general, who was my king with lots of stars, dread, authority and whatever. Stakes are deadly to cavalry running through them, but not to cavalry marching through them.

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hah yeah that works wonders in seiges. in tough onces if i'm defending a multi walled castle i always start by having my longbows stake very vital pass / gate in town! it is annoying when your cavs gets completely annihilated by that though.

stakes + a merc spear group at the gate is fairly close to invunerable unless the oppenent have 0 cav. otherwise the moral effect from all those cavs dieing at the same time pretty much breaks any army.

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Originally Posted by Vikingmad

The AI will always attack you if you outnumber it by 1.2 to 1 with archers. Trust me with 15 archers - there is never a situation where you need to attack the AI.

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This actually makes sense in terms of the AI tweaks that were made. A problem in the past was the cheese tactic of exploiting a passive AI when you had plenty of archers.

Basically when you were on the attack and had plenty of archers you could shot the enemy to pieces without them responding. This was one of the bug 'fixes' and so it seems that if the ai realises it's outnumbered in terms of archers (1.2 to 1 as you say) it will automatically go on the offensive.

Now against non stake deploying archers this would probably be a reasonable tactic, especially if the ai army was cavalry heavy, but against longbows it's pretty suicidal. Especially considering the ai's general inability to attack well.

In this case then I think the English are overpowered. I can only suggest you impose some house rules on your game to the effect that your army is more balanced, and contains fewer longbows.

Frankly though I find having to impose house rules to counteract game balance issues a little frustrating...

Invincible, the English? Just like true life :o)

Henri

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Originally Posted by Vikingmad

The AI will always attack you if you outnumber it by 1.2 to 1 with archers.

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How do you ensure that you don't outnumber them by higher than 1.2? I am fielding almost all archer armies in my welsh campaign right now, and I can hardly get the AI to go after me. I've resorted to keeping extra spearmen in the stack to act as my movable stakes!

Yesterday fought a battle: 5 units of welsh longbows, 2 spears + general vs 2 english generals, 1 feudal knights, 4 hobilars, 2 units of peasants, and 4 spears and 1 longbow.

I had to march my longbows up just out of shooting range and then bait the enemy with my general to have them come into range.

This had happened to me also when I have superior number of archers. In the pre battle screen what kind of odds was the computer giving you? If the odds are heavy on your favor, then the AI will probably go on the defense.

Do stakes at least slow down elephants? or do they just trample right through it? I would think that they need to at least go to a slow walk, the stakes are long enough to hurt them if they run through it.

My current English army must be invincible beacuse so far nobody has dared attack me!

I'm afraid elephants simply roll over the stakes as if they weren't there. In fact, not only that, they actually crush the stakes so that they will no longer harm cavalry. Thus the AI can use them to clear a path if you have blocked off a gateway/river crossing.

The AI just does'nt know what to do with cav. It always charges ged on, and as a resold gets dead. O if i have a penny for all the times i killed the enemy general and cav just after the battle has started... Even on VH/VH, the only exeption are the Mongols and the Timurids. So having stakes guaranties that the AI loses his cav. AND general right at the start, and all you have to do is to kill the infantry with your longbowmen, exelent armored swordsmen and even your miserable cav. And that is hardly a problem for enyone.
Now i will tell you something dangerous. Watch discovery chanel's "battlefield detectives" and national geographic "stories of the bow", made by english. In short what they PROVE is that bodkin arrows can not penetrate 14th or 15th century plate armor. So i thing the longbows have always bean overpowered, in just about any game i have played. By the way, if enlish were so powerful why did France kicked their :daisy: so many times? I mean ho rules Normandy for more tan five centuries now?

I would not believe anything put out by Discovery or National Geographic.

Indeed, I saw a documentary a while back in which a team attempted to build and fire a medieval trebuchet (afraid I can't remember what it was called, I think it was on channel 4); in it a guy demonstrated firing a longbow at an iron breastplate at point-blank range - the arrow went straight through the breastplate and out the other side of the dummy wearing it.

there is a smalllllll difference between firing at point blank range and firing at a moving target a few hundred yards away no ? ;)

Yes, but if it can easily penetrate at close range with some energy to spare, I would imagine it would still have a chance of penetrating at long range. And besides, it still proves that a longbow can penetrate plate armour, even if only under ideal conditions. (I think they demonstrated it at long range and it still penetrated the armour, it was a long time ago that I saw it though so can't remember for sure.)

This is going to be fun. Both TV programs where made between 2003 and 2006. You have have in mind that metallurgy greatly advanced in 15 century. The armor become much stronger. In ''stories for the bow'' they had experiments shoing that it is possible to penetrate large plates with longbows from a small distance(hardly, but possible ), but it is not possible to do it with the smaller armor shaped plates. Battlefield detectives used precised scientific tools to prove that. History is full with propaganda, so be more careful what do you accept for a fact. And after all even english used crossbows and plate armor all the way to the renaissance. The thing that replaced them wasn't longbows but gunpoweder. What is the point of heavy armor if it so easy to beat. I don't remember hordes of longbowmen conquering Europe- do you.

Ah, the classic longbows AP-ability debate.

And to the poster who called English cavalry miserable - shame on you!

English Knights are fantastic, basically Feudal Knights with extra armour and a wonderful AP axe. How can you not love them?

Please stick to the original topic, folks. If you wish to debate the longbows' ability (or lack thereof) to penetrate armor, then it should be done in the Monastery. ~:)

By the 16th century the armor was becoming much thicker in order to withstand gunfire. Longbows had their heyday in 14th-15th century.

Moved to Monastery