Open challenge: Duel to the Death

Current challengers:

UPDATE!

Ignoramus, France, versus ATPG, Turks (Vanilla 1.3) Waiting on Challenger

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Status: France has crusaders nearing our capital, but we have far more jihadis nearing what remains of France. Turks have a large territorial lead and a much larger standing army. Edge: Turks

Monk, Jerusalem, versus ATPG, Ghorids (BC 1.5) Waiting on Challenger

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Status: Jerusalem has conquered two factions, while the Ghorids claim 6. Ghorids have decisive leads in all categories. Edge: Ghorids

Elite Ferret, Khwarezm, versus ATPG, ERE(BC 1.5) Waiting on Challenger

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Khwarezm appears ready to defend, having accomplished their objectives. Meanwhile, Rome has taken out the Turks, crippled Armenia, Jerusalem, and hurt the Ayyubids, while boxing in the Georgians. The Romans have also launched a deep penetrating offensive against the Caliphate, who is nearly destroyed, with Baghdad captured and huge amounts of mercenaries roam Abassid lands. Due to size of lands and forces, Edge: Rome

Byblos, Spain, versus ATPG, Scotland (Vanilla 1.3) Waiting on Challenger

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Scotland has destroyed England and a Spanish invasion force left by ship to go deal with internal matters. We have declared war on France and joined a crusade that was in-progress. Spain lags behind in all categories. Edge: Scotland

Grog, Turks, versus ATPG, England(LTC 3.1) Game In Progress

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

England is off to a promising start...

Finished Games:
ATPG (Ayyubids) versus Monk (Georgia) Win: Ayyubids
ATPG (Moors) versus Ichigo (England) Win: Moors
ATPG (Scotland) versus TheFlax (England) Win: Scotland
ATPG (Oman) versus TriforceV (Jerusalem) Win: Oman
ATPG (Russia) versus AndyNgFL (Scotland) Win: Russia
ATPG (Moors) versus AntiWarmanCake88 (HRE) Win: Moors
ATPG (Egypt) versus Ibn-Khaldun (Sicily) Win: Egypt
________________________________________


A Junior Member with only one post asked The Ultimate Question; If two players could campaign against each other, who would win, The Turtle or the Hare?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=89140
The famous original thread is in the link.

As the self-parodying and self-proclaimed "Blitzmaster", I've waged the war of words and argued endlessly that the Blitzer would win all one on one confrontations, barring some really bizarre circumstances like the Turtle starting with half the map already under his control.

Now that I've experienced multiplayer mode in games with up to 16 players, and gotten a feel for how humans behave and what the new strategies required are, I have decided to set aside some time to publicly challenge anyone who wants to play any kind of "slow expansionist/true turtle" game against one of the more infamous blitz players to a one-on-one duel to the death.

Name your faction and version.

1. Medieval 2 Total War; Vanilla, version 1.0, 1.2, or 1.3
2. Medieval 2 Total War; Lands to Conquer
3. Medieval 2 Total War; Broken Crescent 1.5 with quickfixes
4. Medieval 2 Total War; Stainless Steel (with 4.1 patch)

I'll agree to rules that ban exploits, and I will reveal all my movements and publish my save files. I'll agree to host and I'll disable the console. This could be a lot of fun.

I will even agree to take on multiple challengers. Just give me at least 48 hours or more to play my turn, and I'll do the same. It will be like a mini-hotseat. I will also consider duels with other blitzers...

Raise thy sword. You are hereby challenged.

:knight:

This could be interesting :2thumbsup:

But question - If someone wants to play the 'blitzer' side .. would you take the challenge to play the 'turtle' side??

If you can win as a 'turtle' then you really deserve the title "Master of M2TW" :yes:

So, a PBEM? Or is there some other way to do this that I'm not aware of...?

Sounds like fun. Question, though: How will you define "blitz" and "turtle"? Seems like the "rules" for the different playstyles would have to be made explicit.

Is the turtler allowed to take nearby rebel provinces? Can he initiate wars, or only respond once attacked? Is there any limit on the turtler's rate of expansion -- one new province acquired every 20 turns, for example?

How much is the blitzer allowed to tech up? Must he play the entire game only with units initially available?

Essentially, at what point in the game do you stop being a "blitzer" and start being a "turtler", and vice versa?

Ultimately, I see turtling as a way to allow the AI to tech up -- turtling is a way to purposely make the game *harder*, whereas blitzing is a way to make the game faster and easier. My money's on the blitzer, even though I find that style less enjoyable when playing against the poor AI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

This could be interesting :2thumbsup:

But question - If someone wants to play the 'blitzer' side .. would you take the challenge to play the 'turtle' side??

If you can win as a 'turtle' then you really deserve the title "Master of M2TW" :yes:

---

I would not choose to play as a turtle, no. But I would accept challenges from other blitzers.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CountMRVHS

So, a PBEM? Or is there some other way to do this that I'm not aware of...?

Sounds like fun. Question, though: How will you define "blitz" and "turtle"? Seems like the "rules" for the different playstyles would have to be made explicit.

Is the turtler allowed to take nearby rebel provinces? Can he initiate wars, or only respond once attacked? Is there any limit on the turtler's rate of expansion -- one new province acquired every 20 turns, for example?

How much is the blitzer allowed to tech up? Must he play the entire game only with units initially available?

Essentially, at what point in the game do you stop being a "blitzer" and start being a "turtler", and vice versa?

Ultimately, I see turtling as a way to allow the AI to tech up -- turtling is a way to purposely make the game *harder*, whereas blitzing is a way to make the game faster and easier. My money's on the blitzer, even though I find that style less enjoyable when playing against the poor AI.

---

There will be no real rules restricting play styles, just ones restricting exploits.

I would ask that those who accept the challenge declare that they are turtle, blitz, or moderate, as I have declared a blitz strategy. There are no other house rules.

Basically the idea for the Turtle is to focus on defense, while the Blitzer focuses on offense. The turtle can expand of course, but if they overextend themselves they will be sacrificing defense and the "turtle" strategy. They typically focus on teching up, expanding their trade, creating defensive choke points and preparing to deflect what an invader can throw at them.

If this is not your style, then just declare what you'd prefer. But a while back I debated a great number of people who insisted that turtles had some kind of advantage. Now is the chance to prove which is more powerful. I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

Blitzers tend to go for the high risk, aggressive, quantity of troops strategy. Check out my signature for links to two of my noted campaigns as such. Turtles tend to go for safe, defensive, quality of troops strategy where there are defensive garrisons and watchtowers and navies and merchants and assassins, etc.

Some people tend to balance.

This will be basically a two-person hotseat game, play by email. We can hide our movements or write up the events of our turn as they happen. It could be a spectator sport or a simple private duel, like a chess game.

En garde...

What happens when the irresistible force meets the immovable object?

I like this, be sure to keep us all up to date when/if this happens. I'd be very interested to see how a turtle fairs against a blitzer invasion. :2thumbsup:

It all depends on Geography, eg. a turtle Scotland couldn't survive vs a blitzing England but a turtle Scotland may well survive against a blitzing Byzantine, no helpful crusades for them either...

All we need is a volunteer. Where are all those emphatic turtle supporters?

:grin:



Also, I have reconsidered. I will also gladly take up the role of a moderate Turtle versus a Blitzer, assuming I can't find anyone brave enough to Turtle. I'm feeling my oats today... who wants a war?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

All we need is a volunteer. Where are all those emphatic turtle supporters?

:grin:

---

If after a couple days you don't get any volunteers I'll square off with you AtPG. I'm not hardcore turtler, and i'm not the best around, but I can put up a decent fight. :laugh4:

We can go BC 1.5 with hotfixes, the AI spawn won't be too bad since there's just two of us to police. What will the rules for this deathmatch campaign be? No console is quite self explanatory, will we have battles fought by the attacking player as in the BC2 hotseat? I'd be fine with that, though it may favor the blitzer I think I can put a dent in your forces given the chance. (I don't trust my armies to the number crunch of an auto-resolve...)

To be fair, there will be no forced auto-resolve.

I stated at the beginning of the BC2, and a number of hotseats, that auto-resolve kills the tactical part of the game. A smaller defending force needs to be able to actually USE walls and troops to defend, not have them sitting ducks as numbers to calculate unfairly.

I accept your challenge Monk, as well as any others.

ATPG versus Monk

Broken Crescent Hotseat Duel, VH/VH (or your preference), AI spawn intact except for human players, fight battles enabled.

Name your faction.

Georgia.

The hotseat has really given me a chance to look at their strategic position. Grab three nearby provinces and you can really start to turtle up effectively, along with a good map position in the middle of mountains it's got a good chance of bottling up invaders. At least.. in theory.

I challenge you! My choice depends on yours.

My money is on the AtPG. If battles aren't auto resolved then the person who attacks will hold the advantage of brain over AI. The Hare will be the attacker in almost all cases. AtPG is too good to lose more than 1 or 2 battles while he is in control of the tactical element.

Not necessarily true, Woad and Fangs. You need to be careful about leaving your troops exposed, yes, but inside settlements or forts means that you can sally if surrounded. Properly prepared, a defender actually has the advantage over the attacker.

If it were auto-resolved the defender would really be hurting. Walls aren't taken into account, horse archers are worthless, etc.

-

Elite Ferret:

Do you prefer Vanilla, LTC, or BC?

-

Excellent choice, Monk. I will pick a suitable faction to take on Georgia... I'm thinking...

do you prefer a short or long game?

I'm looking at.... the Ayyubids. I'm actually tempted to pick Oman though. :laugh2: THAT would be a challenge. But I'm going Ayyubids here I think.

Since turtling is rendered completely useless if it's faced by a human brain, the blitzer will win. Creating choke points is impossible for a number of reasons (Concentrated, repeated attacks on a bridge, or why not just land your troops with navies and the turtles shell crumbles), and teching up takes too long. I think most people that argue for a turtle-like playing style do so not because it's more powerful or has advantages, but because they like to extend their campaigns and don't want to conquer the world with spear militia. It's like a zerg rush, effective but, in my opinion, boring. Just like civ, a game against a human requires a completely different approach.
You have learnt how to play the game the way you want to, and you've gotten very good at it. I'm very good at turtling, not because I conquer the world, but because I enjoy playing a long campaign with small but elite armies.

I don't mean to spoil your fun, and I hope I don't come across as such =) I guess I'm getting all defensive for some reason because I'm sure I've argued for turtling before :p My point is I haven't said it's more effective, perhaps someone else has.
Enjoy your challenge! I hope it does get interesting, and may the best quadraped win.

:skull:

I'd be interested, but I only have vanilla M2TW patched to 1.3, but I can download a mod if you'd like. I'm fine with anything really.

I've learned from playing Hotseat campaigns that if you don't blitz then you'll end up surrounded by much larger factions with no room to expand, except for maybe overseas.

I'd also accept your challenge Ichigo. Would you care to pick a faction for vanilla 1.3?

I can even begin playing tonight. I have 3 days off.

I'll take England if that's alright.

Somehow I thought so... It's the navy defense for the win.

Ok... I'm going to go with something that can face off against england.


Quick question though... Should we ignore crusades/jihads? Methinks I could gain an army too quickly that way.

It doesn't matter to me.

This looks like it will be a fun game to play in and to watch, but there are a couple of things which I think negate its value as a true test of turtle vs hare.

- the AI presents too random a variable; in a repeated test the AI factions would likely behave and react in different ways to each player. If the turtler gets blitzed by the AI due to silly AI diplomacy he will stand at a disadvantage to the blitzer who will simply crush all the nations around him.

- this 1v1 test ignores the effect of other human players in a collaborative multiplayer environment. In a proper hotseat with other human players, I contend the turtle has a massive advantage if he is skilled at human diplomacy. A good player who is blitzing presents a threat to the other human players and will find himself ganged up on, while a turtle will find it easier to secure alliances against the blitzer.

I don't think anybody seriously doubts that this 1v1 challenge will ultimately be won by the blitzer one way or the other due to his quick accumulation of resources vs the turtle, and the AI's incompetence in failing to see him as a threat and ganging up to neutralise him.

It should be fun though, and I wish Ichigo the best of luck in proving me wrong.

having intimate experience of Oman, I would truly be beyond impressed if you managed to blitz effectively with them. I mean I was reasonably happy with the expansion I managed in 14 turns, but I have reached the point where either I wait and tech up or my garrisons start costing more than I make.

In SP deguerra (or if there is no player controlling the Abbasids), run up to Baghdad and sack it. Then enjoy your 20k florins to build up your towns and run around sacking more towns... like Rayy.

Note that if you ally the Seljuks and Ghaznavids in SP, you tend to manage to get a large swath of Persia which makes a lot of money compared to Arabia.

Oman is not that hard on the blitz actually.

I've yet to try the Seljuks, but apart from them, the Kypchacks really look like the ultimate blitzing faction. When those 4 uber stacks appear, nothing can stand in their way... especially not Georgia :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash:

Oh I would've taken you up on that challenge ATPG, but I'm a bit too busy at the moment (starting companies really does put a strain on the amount to time you can spend aimlessly on the web). Anyways, you seem to have plenty of opponents. Maybe some other time though. I'd like to see how long I last.

I'll challenge you ATPG with vanilla 1.3. Would you like to try a France v England or a France v HRE?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey

This looks like it will be a fun game to play in and to watch, but there are a couple of things which I think negate its value as a true test of turtle vs hare.

- the AI presents too random a variable; in a repeated test the AI factions would likely behave and react in different ways to each player. If the turtler gets blitzed by the AI due to silly AI diplomacy he will stand at a disadvantage to the blitzer who will simply crush all the nations around him.

---

I actually tend to disagree. The AI has never once mounted a successful offensive against a human player with any reasonable skill level. When was the last time anyone here actually lost all their settlements to the computer? When was the last time anyone here lost more than one or two settlements in any war against the computer ever? I also consider the AI quite predictible. They never defeat one another very quickly, and they betray human players on VH/VH so you just treat them all like advanced rebels, not other factions which can be dealt with honourably.

Quote:

---

- this 1v1 test ignores the effect of other human players in a collaborative multiplayer environment. In a proper hotseat with other human players, I contend the turtle has a massive advantage if he is skilled at human diplomacy. A good player who is blitzing presents a threat to the other human players and will find himself ganged up on, while a turtle will find it easier to secure alliances against the blitzer.

---

I totally agree.

I think everyone has noticed by now that ATPG has no massive empire and tons of allies in serious multiplayer. I've always contended that Blitzers get thier butts handed to them in real-life diplomacy because everyone sees thier aggression as a threat.

The original debate however was between a one on one turtle versus hare duel, and this test does effectively duplicate those conditions.

Quote:

---

I don't think anybody seriously doubts that this 1v1 challenge will ultimately be won by the blitzer one way or the other due to his quick accumulation of resources vs the turtle, and the AI's incompetence in failing to see him as a threat and ganging up to neutralise him.

It should be fun though, and I wish Ichigo the best of luck in proving me wrong.

---

There are a number of people who would disagree with you. I believe Sapi and privateerkev and a whole horde of turtle lovers truly believe the turtle can fight on slightly even terms if played effectively.

And by the way everyone, one war between Ichigo and ATPG won't "prove" anything... It would take many, many wars to build a solid case that one side is more effective than the other. And even then, there's no guarantee that a more moderate turtle couldn't come up with tactical scenarios that favor them.

Ichigo was wise to pick England, for they can easily knock off Scotland and defend the whole of their island with minimal troops and a navy. However, I am plenty prepared for the England scenario... I was challenged before with the England hypothetical.

I'm also selecting VH/VH so that the AI is more aggressive and won't give me an easy time while I'm off trying to destroy Ichigo. In the friendliest terms possible, that is.

:bow: to Ichigo: thanks for the challenge sir! I look forward to being humbled by you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ignoramus

I'll challenge you ATPG with vanilla 1.3. Would you like to try a France v England or a France v HRE?

---

I suspect you mean to take France? Well with England or the HRE I would not be much of a blitzer, having a human player on my border. It would be either a short bloodbath or a long, prolonged attrition battle.

I'm not intimidated, I would just not be a blitzer in that one.

However, if you mean to pick France, I could take the Moors and we could have a quick game.


Challengers so far:

Monk- BC, Georgia versus Ayyubids, ATPG (begun)
Ichigo- Va, England versus Moors, ATPG (begun)
Ignoramus- Va, France versus Turks, ATPG (begun)
Elite Ferret- BC, Khwarezm versus Rome, ATPG (begun)

True, I didn't think of that.

Well, as I'd prefer a long game a challenge, how about you choose the best faction for blitzing, and then I'll pick a faction that's not neighbouring it.

The BEST faction for blitzing? Hmmmm that would be the HRE technically, but I'd want to have at least one edge of the map to assist me. I would pick the Turks.

Allahu ackbar, infidel. You can go with France if you'd like. I won't even rule out crusades/jihads. You don't have to turtle if you don't want to, but France v Turks with france as a turtle would be an effective demonstration of Blitz v Turtle.

Right, you're on!

Very well. France is it? I'll begin the France v Turks duel and send you the save file.

I prefer to use email attachments rather than the org uploader if thats alright with you. The org has to save all these files and its unnecessary for them to sit in someone else's computer. Besides it's quicker and easier for me to deal with yahoo email than have my pm box clogged up, which it already is.

pm me your email address, mine is askthepizzaguy@yahoo.com

edit: save ready for you.

:bump:

Sorry for the double post but your PM box is full ignoramus, I forgot to send you your password.

Just so everyone knows, the passwords here are just an annoying formality. I can change them if you want privacy, but otherwise the default is "1"

Thats your password.

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Turn 1 summery.
Strategy: Turtle.
Current Priority: Secure border relations

Diplomatic information: Sent diplomat to Trebizond, secured trade rights at the cost of map information from the Romans, turned diplomat eastward and will initiate trade talks with Great Seljuks on Turn 2.

Military info: (will be hidden as blitzer gets closer) Combined two border armies into one, marched toward Yerevan. Will besiege on turn 2.

Build info: Building Port in Kutaisi, training Kypchack Horse archers and Georgian Horse archers in Tblisi.

End of Georgian turn 1.

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Turn 1 summary.
Strategy: Blitzer.
Current Priority: Destroy the Infidel

Diplomacy: None yet
Military movements: Encircling Jerusalem
Build Info: 2 shisha bars
Mercenary recruitment: None yet
Garrison recruitment: minor

End of Saladin turn 1

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Turn 2 summery.
Strategy: Turtle.
Current priority: Secure southern border.

Diplomacy: Signed Alliance with Great Seljuks at the cost of Trade rights/Map info.
Military movements: used trained units at Tblisi to march toward Ani, will siege on turn 3. besieged yerevan, will assault on turn 3.
Build Info: None.
Mercenary recruitment: None
Garrison recruitment: None

End Georgian turn 2

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Turn 2 summary.
Strategy: Blitzer.
Current Priority: Destroy the Infidel

Diplomacy: Trade rights with the Armenian scum... for now...
Military: Saladin is at the gates of Jerusalem. Another general is at the gates of Jaffa. We have reinforcements in forts outside the infidel's capital.
Build info: Spies recruited
Mercenary recruitment: none
Garrison recruitment: minor

Other:
Merchants now earning 670+ per turn.

End of Saladin turn 2

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Turn 3 summery
Strategy: Turtle.
Current Priority: Get out of financial debt by securing Southern border.

Diplomacy: Moved diplomat north to talk with Kypchaks.
Military: Took Yerevan, left minor garrison and beseiged Dvin with the same army. beseiged Ani with Giorgi the champion.
Build info: None.
Mercenary recruitment: None.
Garrison recruitment: None.

End of Georgian turn 3.

Bloody Georgians... how nice it must be to have rebels to destroy. :laugh2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Bloody Georgians... how nice it must be to have rebels to destroy. :laugh2:

---

Haha, you'll meet rebels soon enough, though they will be the pesky full stack kind. I'm not going to make your march easy! :beam:

I'm just curious what you consider the win conditions to be, perhaps you've stated it already. For the blitzer it's obvious, but for the turtle? Is it enough to prevent the blitzer from winning or does the turtle have to eliminate the blitzer? =)

Win conditions for the Blitzer are to destroy the opposing faction. Win conditions for the Turtle are to make the Blitzer either declare a cease-fire, peace treaty, surrender, or forfeit. It is not necessary for the Turtle to destroy the blitzer, because if I see that they have destroyed my entire invasion force and are poised to bring the offensive to a grinding halt, I will concede.

However, If I've prepared enough recruitment facilities and spies, they can expect a second wave...

=========================

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Turn 3 summary.
Strategy: Blitzer.
Current Priority: Destroy the Infidel

Diplomacy: Trade rights with the Roman scum... for now...
Military: Jerusalem and Jaffa have both fallen, and the main imperial army of Jerusalem has been utterly annihilated.
Build info: Spies recruited, shisha dens and bars constructed
Mercenary recruitment: major
Garrison recruitment: major

Other:
2 Merchants now earning 670+ per turn.

End of Saladin turn 3

I pick BC, as we already have the same version, and I shall play as the mighty turtles of the Shah. Might not be able to play as fast paced as this one though lol.

theres more than one shah. Did you mean the Ghaznavid Shah or the Khwarezm Shah?

Oh right, I meant the crazy ones I can't spell that's not the Ghaznavids...

Khwarezmids. Khware, zmids. Simple right? Ok maybe not. :laugh2:

You pick a Blitzer's faction for your turtle empire? lol... you're going to give me a huge challenge, EF. Hmmm... who is good against a massive Khwarezmid empire?

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Turn 4 summery.
Strategy: Turtle.
Current priority: Strengthen strategic position.

Diplomacy: None.
Military: Ani and Dvin have both been added to the Georgian Kingdom, financial debt is gone, moving north to secure a coastal black sea city before the Kypchaks can.
Build info: Began building port in Ani, minor building other than that.
Mercenary recruitment: Major.
Garrison recruitment: None.

end of Georgian turn 4.

Ok, Elite Ferret, I've chosen Rome to take you down. But first I need to eliminate those pesky Turks. Bwahahaha... AI spawn intact. I'm uber hardcore.

:laugh2:

What's your email? I need to send you the save file.

I haven't forgotten about you Ichigo, I'm going to send you the save file for our game shortly.

I now have 4 challengers. If for some reason I don't play my turn in 48 hours, just send me an email and remind me. I have 4 hotseats to play as well. However, I'm on break from college and I have a lot of time on my hands. I can handle this.

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids versus Georgia.
Turn 4 summary.
Strategy: Blitzer.
Current Priority: Destroy the Infidel

Diplomacy: Trade rights with Turkish brethren... for now...
Military: Acre, Tyre, and Tripoli have all fallen. Baalbeck and Tartus beseiged.
Build info: more shisha bars, spies, merchants produced. Many ports begun this turn.
Mercenary recruitment: All available recruited
Garrison recruitment: Emptied treasury.

Other:
Merchants earning close to 1500 per turn.

End of Saladin turn 4

=======================

ATPG vs Elite Ferret. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Rome vs Khwarezm.
Turn 1 summary.
Strategy: Blitzer.
Current Priority: Destroy the Rebels

Diplomacy: Trade rights with the Turks
Military: Beseiging Dorylaeum, Ani
Build info: none
Mercenary recruitment: heavy
Garrison recruitment: light

End of Rome turn 1

=======================

ATPG vs Ignoramus. Vanilla 1.3.
Turks versus France.
Turn 1-
(France's turn)

=======================

ATPG vs. Ichigo. Vanilla 1.3
Moors versus England.
Turn 1-
(England's turn)

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids versus Georgia.
Turn 5 summary.
Strategy: Turtle.
Current Priority: Further strengthen position

Diplomacy: None.
Military: Internal troops movements to better strengthen position.
Build info: Ports and land clearance.
Mercenary recruitment: Minor.
Garrison recruitment: Major.

End of Georgian turn 5

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids versus Georgia.
Turn 5 summary.
Strategy: Blitzer.
Current Priority: Destroy the Infidel

Diplomacy: Secured peace and alliance with the Kingdom of Kerak (Jerusalem faction nearly obliterated, they relented)

Military: Baalbeck and Tartus fallen. Hama under seige.
Build info: numerous spies, merchants, assassin recruited. More ports constructed.
Mercenary recruitment: All available recruited,
Garrison recruitment: Emptied treasury.

Other:
Merchants earning close to 2200 per turn.

End of Saladin turn 5

Many freshly-recruited spies fell to their deaths on missions this turn...

I would have chose the Ghorids if I was you. I didn't know they were a blitz faction though, I just thought they were fairly large and at the edge of the map and have lots of good rivers for choke points.

I'd rather you sent the save via PM if that is okay as I rarely check my emails these days but I'll send it to you anyway.

edit:just read your PM and in that case e-mail will be fine, I'll make a habit of checking it.

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids versus Georgia.
Turn 6 summary.
Strategy: Turtle.
Current Priority: Expand borders to give breathing room.

Diplomacy: Made alliance with Kypchak(turn 5, didn't report) and Abbasids, as well as trade rights.
Military: Using garrison recruitment to march, besieged coastal province (who's name i forget) and will besiege Van on turn 7-8.
Build info: None.
Mercenary recruitment: Minor.
Garrison recruitment: None.

end of turn 6, Georgia.

----

I'm watching your advance ATPG, it's a bit worrying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elite Ferret

I would have chose the Ghorids if I was you. I didn't know they were a blitz faction though, I just thought they were fairly large and at the edge of the map and have lots of good rivers for choke points.

I'd rather you sent the save via PM if that is okay as I rarely check my emails these days but I'll send it to you anyway.

edit:just read your PM and in that case e-mail will be fine, I'll make a habit of checking it.

---

The Ghorids? Meh.

You're almost expected to expand east into india with your huge stacks of troops that you're given from the start. You waste too much time moving west and you lose a lot of money, only to beseige Ghazni and then what? Worthless provinces they have...

The Ghorids are an anti-Rajput faction. Once they take the east they can turn around, but I just can't disband good Ghorid troops or go heavily into debt just to take out the Ghaznavids. Besides, the Romans get to paste 3 AI spawn stacks of Turkish troops. Mmm.... beefy.

With any luck I'll be the one pasted instead. Maybe the AI will attack me for once.

I can send you saves via PM it's just... ugh... I already get so many diplomatic pm's that I need a bigger inbox or something. 125 messages is not enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Monk

I'm watching your advance ATPG, it's a bit worrying.

---

Famous last words...

:laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

There are a number of people who would disagree with you. I believe Sapi and privateerkev and a whole horde of turtle lovers truly believe the turtle can fight on slightly even terms if played effectively.

---

I've said no such thing. A turtle will lose to the blitzer. Period. The only point I've ever tried to make is that I can make your victory take longer than you think. Not that I can actually change the eventual outcome. That is why I haven't joined in this challenge.

I am not a "turtle lover" because I think that way is better, or would win. I am a "turtle lover" because that way of playing is simply more fun for me. :2thumbsup:

ATPG vs Elite Ferret. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
ERE versus Kwarezm Shah.
Turn 1 summary.
Strategy: Turtle, after a wee blitz.
Current Priority: blitz south so I can secure borders to turtle within

Diplomacy: send diplomat to Great Seljuks
Military: Used spies to get into Merv and Balkh, both opened gates and both cities were taken.
Build info: Queued up a barracks in Merv and grain exchanges in my two starting towns.
Mercenary recruitment: 2 units of Kypchak Auxilia to take Balkh.
Garrison recruitment: A unit of Steppe archers in each of my starting towns.

__________________________________________________________

how come you only have 125 messages in your inbox? I have 400 max...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Privateerkev

I've said no such thing. A turtle will lose to the blitzer. Period. The only point I've ever tried to make is that I can make your victory take longer than you think. Not that I can actually change the eventual outcome. That is why I haven't joined in this challenge.

I am not a "turtle lover" because I think that way is better, or would win. I am a "turtle lover" because that way of playing is simply more fun for me. :2thumbsup:

---

Fair enough, and my apologies Privateerkev, my memory is quite terrible. Just wait until I am old and senile...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Fair enough, and my apologies Privateerkev, my memory is quite terrible. Just wait until I am old and senile...

---

:bow:

As for the Turtle vs Blitzer challenge, it is like watching a 20 mile race between someone running, and someone in a car...

I don't think it will be very fun... :no:

Well in the challenge 'rules' it says that you can blitz, turtle or be moderate. Besides being a turtle doesn't mean you are extremely weak, I'm looking forward to defending the rivers of the Shah.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elite Ferret

Besides being a turtle doesn't mean you are extremely weak

---

No but it does mean you just gave up the best way of making quick money.

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids versus Georgia.
Turn 6 summary.
Strategy: Blitzer.
Current Priority: Destroy Syrian Rebels

Diplomacy: Secured peace and alliance with the Seljuks and the Abassids, I believe. Or the Turks I forget. Looks like my allies are your allies. I wonder whose side they will pick...

Military: Hama and Aleppo have fallen.
Build info: More shisha bars and plenty of agents
Mercenary recruitment: All available recruited,
Garrison recruitment: recruited some, but still some treasury remaining.


Other:
Moved Capital.
Even though my merchants take a huge hit, I'm still earning more with the capital in Jerusalem.
LOTS of dead spies.

End of Saladin turn 6

======================

ATPG vs Elite Ferret. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
ERE versus Kwarezm Shah.
Turn 2 summary.
Strategy: Blitz
Current Priority: Destroy Turks

Diplomacy: made alliance with Armenia
Military: Took Dorylaeum and Ani, used money to recruit more mercenaries, build brothels.
Build info: Brothels.
Mercenary recruitment: minor
Garrison recruitment: none

ATPG vs Elite Ferret. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
ERE versus Kwarezm Shah.
Turn 2 summary.
Strategy: Turtle, after a wee blitz.
Current Priority: blitz south so I can secure borders to turtle within

Diplomacy: send diplomat to Great Seljuks.
Military: none.
Build info: same as last turn.
Mercenary recruitment: none.

ATPG vs Elite Ferret. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
ERE versus Kwarezm Shah.
Turn 3 summary.
Strategy: Blitz
Current Priority: Taking Konya

Diplomacy: made alliance with Jerusalem and Georgia, declared war on Turks
Military: Took Dvin (?) I believe, decimated defenders at Konya, but some survived to re-garrison the city. 3 spies in production. Disbanded expensive troops in the east.

Build info: none.
Mercenary recruitment: none.

ATPG vs Elite Ferret. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
ERE versus Kwarezm Shah.
Turn 3 summary.
Strategy: Turtle, after a wee blitz.
Current Priority: blitz south so I can secure borders to turtle within

Diplomacy: allied to the Great Seljuk's, trade rights and map info with Ghaznavids and trade rights with Ghorids..
Military: recruited some men in my citadel and sent them South.
Build info: building barracks' everywhere.
Mercenary recruitment: none.

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.05 with hotfixes.
Ayyubid against Georgia.
Turn 7 summery
Strategy: turtle.
Current Priority: Secure Van, turtle.

Diplomacy: Trade rights with Armenia.
Military: (hidden).
Build info: None.
Mercenary recruitment: None.
Garrison recruitment: (hidden).

end of Georgia turn 7.

ATPG vs Elite Ferret. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
ERE versus Kwarezm Shah.
Turn 4 summary.
Strategy: Blitz
Current Priority: Annihilate the remaining 3 stacks of Turks

Military: Took Konya with spies dropping like flies... the minimal garrison was decimated, and Sultan Kilij Arslan himself was slain in battle in a field near the city the next day. 3 stacks of Turkish horde remaining... but we're wearing them down...

I should get bonus points for immediately attacking the Ai spawn... I'm clearly not a coward.
They still outnumber me 4 to 1.

Build info: Many spies recruited, churches in Ani and Dvin
Mercenary recruitment: minor

======================

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.05 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids against Georgia.
Turn 7 summary
Strategy: Blitz
Current Priority: Annihilate remaining buffer between Egypt and Georgia

Diplomacy: Alliance with Kypchaks
Military: Took Edessa, seiging Diyarbakir
Build info: (hidden)
Mercenary recruitment: (hidden)
Garrison recruitment: (hidden).

end of Saladin turn 7.

ATPG vs Elite Ferret. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
ERE versus Kwarezm Shah.
Turn 5 summary.
Strategy: Blitz
Current Priority: Annihilate the remaining 2 stacks of Turks

Military: Took Ankara, spies survived this time. Noob spies in Ani died against foolish Ayyubid ambassador. Decimated entire stack of AI spawn.

They still outnumber me 4 to 1. (took losses)

Build info: Many spies recruited
Garrison recruitment: Major
Mercenary recruitment: until bank was broken.

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.05 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids against Georgia.
Turn 7 summary
Strategy: Turtle.
Current Priority: Prepare for the coming storm.

Diplomacy: Denied map information/trade rights to Ayyubid.
Military: Internal troop movements.
Build info: (hidden)
Mercenary recruitment: (hidden)
Garrison recruitment: (hidden).

-------

I kinda chuckled when you offered map information for map information ATPG. Not gonna be that easy. ~D

turn 5:

Besieged some random castle, why are we doing these reports anyway?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elite Ferret

turn 5:

Besieged some random castle, why are we doing these reports anyway?

---

So that the spectators can know what's going on. I could post screenshots but I think that might be too much information...

lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Monk

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.05 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids against Georgia.
Turn 7 summary
Strategy: Turtle.
Current Priority: Prepare for the coming storm.

Diplomacy: Denied map information/trade rights to Ayyubid.
Military: Internal troop movements.
Build info: (hidden)
Mercenary recruitment: (hidden)
Garrison recruitment: (hidden).

-------

I kinda chuckled when you offered map information for map information ATPG. Not gonna be that easy. ~D

---

I was hoping you wouldn't notice that it was from me and just hit the accept button anyway.

Actually I just wanted to show off my massive empire. Take a look-see...

:laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

So that the spectators can know what's going on. I could post screenshots but I think that might be too much information...

lol



I was hoping you wouldn't notice that it was from me and just hit the accept button anyway.

Actually I just wanted to show off my massive empire. Take a look-see...

:laugh4:

---

Hah, did a reload and took a look. Very nice. :thumbsup:

Not sure if I can hold back that kinda military machine for long, but by god i'm about to try. :laugh2:

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.05 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids against Georgia.
Turn 9 summary
Strategy: Turtle.
Current Priority: Prepare for the coming storm.

Diplomacy: none.
Military: Internal troop movements.
Build info: (hidden)
Mercenary recruitment: (hidden)
Garrison recruitment: (hidden).

Starting to really feel the limitation of the turtle mind-set. Despite having expanded to take a few provinces around me, I'm still hurting to find the funds I'm going to need to beat a blitzer.

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.05 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids against Georgia.
Turn 10 summary
Strategy: Blitz.
Current Priority: Prepare the coming storm.

Diplomacy: declared war on ally Abassid Caliphate
Military: Massed a lot of troops for the Georgian attack, took Samarra.
Build info: (hidden)
Mercenary recruitment: (hidden)
Garrison recruitment: (hidden).

==========================

ATPG vs Elite Ferret. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
ERE versus Kwarezm Shah.
Turn 7 summary.
Strategy: Blitz
Current Priority: Annihilate the remaining 2 stacks of Turks, Armenia

Military: Took first Armenian settlement. Ignoring Turks.
Numbers are even.
Diplomacy: Offered the Khwarezmids an alliance :laugh4:
Build info: Many spies recruited
Garrison recruitment: Major
Mercenary recruitment: until bank was broken.

ATPG vs Elite Ferret. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
ERE versus Kwarezm Shah.
Turn 7 summary.
Strategy: Turtle, after a wee blitz.
Current Priority: blitz south so I can secure borders to turtle within

Diplomacy: allied to the ERE :P
Military: recruited some men in my citadel and sent them South, captured another castle and besieged two more towns.
Build info: building barracks' everywhere.
Mercenary recruitment: minor.

ATPG vs. Ichigo. Vanilla 1.3
Moors versus England.
Turn 1
Strategy:Turtle
Current Priority:Take the British Isles

Diplomacy: None
Military: :tongue:
Build info: :tongue:
Mercenary recruitment:None

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.05 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids against Georgia.
Turn 11 summary
Strategy: Turtle.
Current Priority: Final Preparations.

Diplomacy: None.
Military: Massed troops.
Build info: (hidden)
Mercenary recruitment: (hidden)
Garrison recruitment: (hidden).

---------

Killing off my agents is not funny ATPG! :laugh4:

give me about 15 minutes guys... I have to eat dinner. Then I'll kill you all... :laugh2:

ATPG vs. Ichigo. Vanilla 1.3
Moors versus England.
Turn 2
Strategy:Turtle
Current Priority:Take the British Isles

Diplomacy: Trade rights with Scotland and France
Military: York was taken with minimal casualties
Build info: :tongue:
Mercenary recruitment:None

ATPG vs Monk. BC 1.05 with hotfixes.
Ayyubids against Georgia.
Turn 11 summary
Strategy: Blitz.
Current Priority: Prepare the coming storm.

Diplomacy: Declared war on Rome (ally)
Military: Captured Baghdad, killed Caliph an-Nasir The Useless....
Build info: (hidden)
Mercenary recruitment: (hidden)
Garrison recruitment: (hidden).

I am now the Caliph of all Islamic armies. FEAR ME! :skull: :skull: :skull:

==========================

ATPG vs Elite Ferret. BC 1.5 with hotfixes.
ERE versus Kwarezm Shah.
Turn 8 summary.
Strategy: Blitz
Current Priority: Destroy Armenia and Jerusalem

Military: Declared war on Jerusalem (ally) and captured Tartus
Numbers are better than even...
Diplomacy: Offered military access with my good friends the Khwarezmids... :laugh2:
Build info: Too numerous to mention
Garrison recruitment: Major
Mercenary recruitment: until bank was broken.



===========================

ATPG vs. Ichigo. Vanilla 1.3
Moors versus England.
Turn 2
Strategy: Blitz
Current Priority: Mass the armies of Jihad

Diplomacy: none
Military: Jihad declared and answered, assaulted rebel settlement
Build info: some shisha bars...
Mercenary recruitment: Major

==========================


Just waiting on Ignoramus to play his France turn...

ATPG vs. Ichigo. Vanilla 1.3
Moors versus England.
Turn 3
Strategy:Turtle
Current Priority:Take the British Isles

Diplomacy: Sold Caen to France
Military: Army moving towards Wales
Build info: :tongue:
Mercenary recruitment:None
Interesting Happenings: I found out that the Moors are at war with the Byzantine Empire.

ATPG vs. Ichigo. Vanilla 1.3
Moors versus England.
Turn 3
Strategy: Blitz
Current Priority: Destroy the infidel

Diplomacy: trade rights with spain
Military: Took Valencia... the Jihad is on the move.
Build info: nothing of note
Mercenary recruitment: Major

I declare war on people randomly... whenever it suits me... lol