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Hello CA.
If any of you guys are still around here, maybe you can answer my question:
Would you release the source code for Medieval:Total War for us fans and modders? Or would it be possible for someone to buy it?
MTW is a very old game (6 years old), you cannot get any more profit out of it, so maybe you would do something for the people which still play it like hell?
Thank you. :bow:
Asking for Shogun's code might be more reasonable, but I imagine there are still a few trade secrets even in that code that they might not want released...
Since I just bought the Eras package a few months ago I pretty much disprove the 'no profit left' theory. If normal game marketing holds its course expect a 'series' package with M1 and M2, and a 'compendium' package with S,M1,R and M2, one right before Empires and one right after.
I honestly doubt CA will release the source code on either STW or MTW anytime soon, and Alexander and Timsup2nothin have highlighted the two main reasons why: Even if sales of these two games were to drop to a negligible level -- which I have a feeling hasn't happened yet, despite all the time that's passed since they were both released -- I suspect it'll still be a very long time before CA would be willing to divulge the (relatively) sensitive contents of their intellectual property. I agree it's unfortunate in a way, but it's also understandable.
@Timsup2nothin: Welcome to the Org, btw! ~:wave:
It doesn't stand up Martok.
Why would they still keep a 2000-2001 game engine (MTW was built over the Shogun engine), updated a bit in 2002? There's no more support for MTW. The sales are negligible. What intellectual property is still there?
They are releasing ETW, the 5th game in the series. At least give us something to work on!
And if not to the general public, at least to some people and under NDA contract.
Heh, I doubt it Edyz (First Post). I asked Bethesda Softworks to release Daggerfall as Freeware (like TES - Arena) as they no longer sell nor produce it, thus not creating any revenue from it. They turned the idea down quickly and without remorse.
I was really getting ready to sink my teeth into some nice juicy Daggerfall... :shame:
Edit: And The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall is much older than MTW.
I won't claim it necessarily makes a lot of sense per se, but companies do tend to be very protective of their IP....no matter how old it is, and I'm sure CA is no exception. Not to mention which, there's the added wrinkle that they're now owned by Sega, who are probably even more likely to hold onto their IP. So even if CA were willing to release MTW's source code (which is still extremely unlikely), I very strongly doubt that Sega would ever allow it regardless. Like it or not, you and I will probably be old men (if not in the grave) before that would ever happen. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
Yes, but the thing is, if they don't want for free, can they let us BUY it?
Can someone from CA comment on this please?
I can understand why CA would be reluctant to release source code, but could they release it in a controlled way to say a group of moders so they could see if the problem with newer graphics cards could be sorted?
I am sure that it is not worth their while to create a patch to sort it out, but it would be of use to them if somebody else did it. Perhaps it could be done through somebody like Caravel who seems to have a wide knowledge of these things - just a thought - from somebody with a new PC with a good graphic card!!!:egypt:
Just create a new source code !! ...
Im sure the people who have made mods in the past and tweaked & balanced them for a better game could improve the AI immensely on all apects .
I don't think it'd hurt for CA to let some of the top modders see if they can fix the graphics drivers issues. There has been a lot of disappointment in CA when it comes to patches for their games. They were going to stop at 1.2 for Rome, and to my knowledge, they haven't released any more patches for M2TW beyond the 1.3, which only allows multiplayer (Kingdoms is the 1.4, I assume...and I thought I saw something about a 1.5 in the M2TW section, but I did read the threads on patches and such where people shared their disappointment in the lack of any more planned patches). I think, to allow modders to at least create a solution for the graphics drivers problem would partly redeem them in the eyes of their fans - and it might be for an older game, but it is the first step in a long journey. They need to take better care of their players (that save-load bug on RTW was once called a feature by CA...then they changed their tune at some point and decided to finally fix it).
Followers of this thread should see the thread with the new fix for CTD for MTW - if that is all that is required then it should be easy to do a simple patch - perhaps we could host it??
Well this is the thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimitrios the samian
We want CA to release the code to MTW so we will just work MTW. To create a better game graphics wise and other stuff its impossible to do it with the MTW code because the engine is old, and no-one would ever spend an entire life working from this code.
IMHO, I think what everyone wants is better AI and diplomacy. Graphics cannot be fixed but there is no need. Content and other things have been added by great mods. Diplomacy and AI can only be resolved by the source code, by editing it. Same thing goes for bugs.
CA will never ever ever ever ever do that!!
But I don't think anybody on the Org, that still plays MTW, that could be bothered to put effort into anything, and that has the time and patience, even has the skills to work with coding for games so mechanically complex, such as Medieval: Total War's engine, is around and willing to edit some code just to make MTW that tiny fraction better.
I could be wrong however... Someone out there, that enjoys playing MTW, that has plenty of time and patience, that can be determined enough, and has the skill requirements for coding a game so mechanically complex might rock up here at the Org tomorrow... But what are the chances of that, eh?
:juggle:
I think you would be surprised. There are quite a few people here that I believe are more than capable. With access to the source, it would probably be fairly straightforward to find out the video driver issues.
As for improving the game, I would say the best changes to make would be moving many of the hardcoded settings into new text game files. Doing this would open balance and playability testing to a greater number of people.
All wishful thinking though.
I believe that it is against the rules to even discuss it, yet alone do it.
[Indeed it is. -- Martok]
We need to be constructive, also, about CA's current and future Total War games - calling them :daisy: (yes, I just censored that word myself) isn't very constuctive, it's just venting anger at the shortcomings of their games.
I think there could be a way to 'butter-up' CA, to encourage them to trust us with this issue, and fixing the game code (NOT cracking, though) so that video driver issues are solved. I'd go as far as saying that CA should trust us, seeing as how they are selling MTW:VI in those special bundles with the other TW games, knowing full well the issues that newer computers will have running the game. They're even selling Shogun in those bundles. Heck knows what issues RTW will have one day. I don't think it is moral to sell games under such false pretenses. Not everyone will be aware of any of the problems or solutions, the people who visit these forums are likely in the minority - so, how do CA think people will feel if two of the games in those special bundles don't work at all? These bundles people have spent their hard-earned money on? And what if RTW ends up suffering the same issues? It is selling games under the false pretenses they still work just fine - not everyone is akin to understanding the world of computing, and the various issues newer computers have with older software, and CA's current path could be construed as exploiting that.
Now, I think it is only fair to let us see if we could fix the video driver issues. Remember, it looks like the campaign map issues have been fixed in the other thread, and that is because of just two files - TWO files, who would have guessed they'd screw an entire game up? Well...I suppose anyone could have guessed...LOL...Murphy's Law (or Sod's Law) - if something is going to go wrong, it will, and it will be one ever so simple thing no one has thought of, and no one will think of for a long time. What if the battlemap could be fixed in an instant? Maybe it couldn't, but we'd be doing CA a favour. People are already angry at them because of their track record in recent times for releasing unfinished products, and their patches not fixing nearly enough (I mean, seriously, it isn't easy to make games, I understand that - but it is NO excuse to make them half-hearted).
What else can they do with the game engine anyway? Isn't it obsolete? I know they might want to hang on to it, but none of us here are intending to make any profit from it. We just want to fix a classical game, and it might restore our faith in CA. They do owe us, really - we've been loyal to them, we've parted with our money for them, we haven't tossed this game out of the window. They need more help from the community, because games aren't about what the company wants, they are about what the people want - and if the people want it, they will buy it. If the community is allowed to input, even on these old games, it encourages good community relations with the company, and encourages the company to be more open-minded.
MTW is a classical game, and I think it would be a shame - and an injustice - if CA were to totally ignore us on this issue. I already uninstalled M2TW in anger, and can't reinstall it because the DVD drive speed is insufficient (or so I am led to believe - the DVD's won't read, not the first nor the second). I liked RTW, and it still bustles to this day. However, I will not be buying Empire because CA is focusing too much on graphics and not substance. MTW had substance. RTW had some also. M2TW did not. CA have disillusioned the people on these forums, and I think it is our voice that matters the most, not the voices of the unseen and unheard buyer who will never log on to these forums (face it, CA have to look at forums, and do they really want to see people upset at them? In a constructive manner? That's far worse than some of the rants out there - to know someone has a reason for not liking you, and isn't just angry).
If anyone working at CA is reading this, we implore you to reconsider. What threat is there in letting us fix the video driver issues? Heck, we'd be doing you a favour because then, you'd be able to sell the Eras pack, and more, with STW and MTW bundled in them, with the fixes. Not everyone likes cool graphics - you might be surprised how many people might jump at the chance to play MTW or STW. Many issues factor into it. Some people love cool graphics, but also like the 'old school' games (STW and MTW). We all remember Digger and Space Invaders - and Pong - after all these years. They were ever so simple, but they made for great, fun games. You can't really go on selling games in bundles if they suffer severe graphics driver issues, it isn't right. People are paying money for broken games.
I hope I have made a point here, and I think there can be a way for this to work out, both for CA and the community. Just because it might be hard is no excuse at all not to at least try. I think we could do something really great here. Blizzard constantly updates their games, and I'm not advocating releasing hundreds of updates, but there should be better support for the TW games. There is no rival, currently, but if there were to be one, that rival would be a great threat if they ever considered the problems CA has been overlooking. This idea of tweaking the code can benefit CA greatly, and we really would greatly appreciate any help they have to offer. We do not want to do anything untowards or illegal, nor do we want to fleece CA out of profits.
Yeah, a bit long-winded, I know. Er...DISMISSED! :laugh4:
Kaidonni, well said. :bow:
Who is up for a petition? And if so, what variants would you consider?
1. Source code for existing MTW players present here in order to improve the game - forbidden to sell except if someone buys the source code.
2. Source code only for selected people such as modders
3. Just fix the video issue
I want 1.
[Sorry edyz, but the mention of game cracks had to be removed. -- Martok ]
I realize that most of you don't need reminding (and my thanks to Kaidonni and edyz for their restraint :bow: ), but I'll say it anyway: Discussion about -- and especially advocacy of -- game cracks is strictly forbidden. Even when well-intentioned, the Org does not allow it. Period.
Now that having been said....
Poll added. ~:)
Sure, I'll give a yes vote and help out my MTW-faithful compatriots. :yes:
Well put, Kaidonni. But:
-> Paying for a broken game isn't quite their fault, it's a hardware fault, it's like paying for a game that only just came out, and finding out it won't work on your Comadore 64.
-> Whilst it's true that probably none of us are planning anything malicious against CA, if they were to place up the source code freely available to the public, who knows who'd come along, snatch it up, and redistribute it thus making profit from a game they didn't make.
-> Remember they'd be releasing it to total strangers, we may seem cute and fuzzy on the outside, but they've never met us in person, who's to say that we aren't not planning to warez MTW?
-> Whilst I do agree that we should try it, you've got to remember the risks that CA would be gambling here. If it fails miserably there'd never trust us again, who knows, the company itself might fall. There are plenty of "What if's..." involved - as I've said, the company is risking plenty, MTW might be end up being freely distributed across this org as a pirated version.
I'm simply pointing out the "What if's..." here. As for the poll, it's a "Yes" but a significant part of me says "No". :confused:
Actually, on the broken game part, it is kind of CA's fault. This is specifically a PC game, and no one is dumb enough (er...yeah, I remember that advert about the clever-dumb balance...LOL...) to try it on their Commodore64. People are expecting it to work on their PC, still, especially seeing as how my version of MTW Gold is on a PC DVD-rom. Is Eras on a PC DVD-rom too? It might mislead some people to think this game, which is suffering hardware issues (that they are not aware of) is fitted out to work on more recent computers. PC-DVD roms are pretty recent, and to release a game on one, or continue it's sale over to that medium... It might be an old game (LOL...well, not old OLD), but there is something about the continual sale of it that seems misleading.
Something really does need to be done. They don't need to trust us with the code, it could be something entirely differing that's mucking the battlefield up. We might be able to find a few files that, just like the ones NTW replaced, need tweaking to work fine. But, something still needs to be done.
When it comes down to it, sure it's a hardware issue, but I will repeat that CA are at least partly to blame for continuing to sell the game, especially on PC-DVD roms (either like MTW Gold or part of the Eras bundle), to PC owners (not Commodore64 or Amiga owners). There is, again, an air about the way the game is sold that makes it seem recent. One day it may break entirely, and we may not ever be able to get it to work after that day. However, I feel that CA is misleading people to an extent, even if not intentional. There should be a warning that comes with the game about the hardware issues, slapped right on the front (or as part of the blurb on the back). It isn't every day you expect a PC game on a PC-DVD rom to not work.
So, even if it isn't to gain access to the code, we should still petition CA for something. I'm certain we can make some convincing argument.
Besides, it's only the actual battlefield that doesn't work properly now. The buttons on that screen match up, and the radar map also matches up and works properly (save for not letting you move so well or change the rank depth of your troops). So, why doesn't the battlefield itself work? Why are there mouse-over problems? Perhaps a few files need tweaking, and that is all, to fix the issue. Just seems rather odd that just one element of the battlemap doesn't work, yet the others do.
Yeah, repeated myself a bit, but hope I made my point. CA can't simply shift the blame on to anyone else. Many modern computers will be having issues, and they are still selling the game knowing it probably won't work. And, like I said, we aren't on about Commodore64's here (for the third time...LOL)...
I said yes to the poll, but I still don't think it's going to happen. They may allow it 10-15 years after release, but unlikely at this point.
The only workable solution I see would be for them to allow a small company (under heavy NDA contracts) to see and fix the code for new drivers and new OS versions (when Windows 7 comes out in a few). A port to Linux would be nice as well, but we can't really get greedy. ~;) The problem (which is the same problem CA has with patches) is that the regression testing/QA process would be prohibitively expensive, and unless the modders take on that responsibility CA/Sega is not going to go through with it.
So, to sum up, an official patch would be too expensive, but an unofficial patch would compromise intellectual property.
We could always nag Nvidia instead...
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=40869&st=0
Heck, there is concern that problems are even emerging for RTW on Nvidia's drivers. That isn't good at all. What the heck is going on? The latest drivers, the 8800 series, totally screwed up the computer - interface lock-ups from all angles, extremely recent games like Half Life 2 Episode 2 not launching, and crashing (turns out forcing it to load in windowed mode just about bypassed the problem, but it only came out last October...if games, especially good ones with substance, are going obsolete at that rate, why bother at all with them?). Heck, on Nvidia's latest drivers, Maya 8.0, 8.5 and 2008 don't work properly unless you find the thread on CG Society where you sift through for the setting you need the graphics card/drivers at...and those are major 3D animation/modelling packages...
They could divulge the source code without releasing the games into the public domain. Wouldn´t be the first who have done that. The "Call to Power" makers did, for instance, allow a certain game modders domain to use the source code for improvements. The makers of the game "Comanche vs Hokum" did likewise: the source is public, but the games are not (and you have to purchase them to use the mods).
In fact, one could argue that it might bolster sales of old games.
Possible reasons for them not to do so: I´ll use my last example: Comanche vs Hokum was improved in pretty much every single way by the modders, whereas the developers released a rather crude "CvsH 2" with little improvement over the modded first game.
I'd gladly contribute a small sum towards being able to purchase the source code off CA,so that the graphics problems could be fixed.Maybe we could start up a thread for this purpose,that is if CA are willing to let us try.
TW never really changed. From STW to MTW2 the game really didnt evolve much (/or at all actually many argue that the game devolved asides from graphics) moreover to this day still TW doesnt face any competition in the market... so it is crazy to believe that CA might release the source code of MTW or even STW...
Still wondering if people think the same...
My option:
Somebody buys the source code, retaining the property rights of the whole game. However, a deal is made with CA. The profits of the new game are shared equally between the buyer and CA, but at the same time, the game is completely reworked on the AI/Diplomacy side and in some aspects, the campaign map has more features, more factions, more units... The game is repackaged, sold as Medieval: Total War (new & improved), including a bundle of the ORIGINAL game, and everyone is happy.
Any takers? I seriously want to do this. :bow:
In the odd chance we got the source code for MTW, we'd need someone skilled in C++ who also has an awful lot of time and motivation to invest.
And fixing the "bug" with newer video cards is not straightforward, it takes figuring out what the problem is, which could be anything. Not a simple line of code that says "don't work on new cards"... Then of course, fixing one bug creates another, and the cycle goes on.
However, Paradox released their source code for the Europa engine, privately to volunteering modders, which is the code for EU1, EU2, CK, HOI1, HOI2, and Victoria. Those games they are still making a lot of money on, they released this code within a year of releasing one or more expansions for the games built on it. They didn't even wait until the game was dead.
ID Software released the source code for most of their earlier games, including Q1, Q2 and Q3 : http://www.idsoftware.com/business/techdownloads/
Rebellion software released the source code for the first AvP game.
All of these are games that made huge profits, have huge and very real modding communities and in the case of the Quake series, spawned hundreds of other titles many of them free: http://www.urbanterror.net/news.php
The reason that the CA won't release the source code to STW (and MTW - but first things first) is anyone's guess. IMHO it's because we're dealing with a company that cares little for it's fans, especially those long term fans that bought the games and put CA where it is today.
When the source code is released, it does not mean that the game becomes free. In the case of the Quake games you have the necessary code to build the binaries and libs that the game needs. You then need the game media (the pak files containing the textures, models, weapons etc) in order to get the game running. To get to this point you need to buy the game OR download it illegally. But people still download it illegally anyway - so this would be no different to them releasing a patch.
It would work exactly the same for CA:
1) They would release the source code for the binaries.
2) The open source community would immediately sieze on this and:
a) Fix the problems in the existing game engine, port it to other platforms (GNU/Linux, MacOS, etc)
b) Start improving AI, adding functionality etc.
3) Joe public wants to download and run (let's call it) Open Medieval - Total War (for now). He gets either the win32, Mac or Linux build from sourceforge - installs runs and.... nothing
4) The user then reads the manual and realises that he needs the original game. He doesn't need the original windows binaries but he does need the game media files (images, sounds, scripts etc) and the licence.
5) Once he has these, which he pays for, he's up and running. He may be a Mac user or a Linux user, therefore he's a customer CA would otherwise not have had.
Tried, tested, works. Now tell me why CA won't release the source code for a 9 year old game?
Beats me... I really can't figure it out why CA won't release the source code. I'm sure they've seen this thread at least once, but still, I guess it doesn't matter.
What about actually making a petition and sending it over to them? Next year I'm off to uni in England, so I'll gladly hand them the petition personally.
I am not sure if this petition is going to impress CA. I mean, why vote no? It doesn't cost us anything. A more relevant question would be: if CA releases the source code, would you be able (and willing) to do something with it? M:TW source code is likely to be thousand and thousands of lines long, so even trying to understand how it works will be a major undertaking.
Unless they were really bad programmers who created it, it isn't that hard to piece it together and understand it, it does take time depending on how much code they used, but mostly depends on how good a job they did making it.
At least they're not Russians with Russian comments all through it.
Though I agree, they aren't going to think they have anything to gain by releasing it. Though I do think (with reference to Caravel's post) that they would gain from it, because the possible mods would still require the original game. Releasing the source code doesn't mean you release all license to the game. It doesn't make pirating legal.
:bow:
Look around, we still have a fair share of experienced MTW moddern around. Blind King of Bohemia, Axalon, Tyberius... Even me, if the source code would be released or at least have some option of getting it, I will gladly take up my best arms and join the modding fight.
Make a petition? Enough support? Enough votes?
How about we all make an e-mail and send it to CA?
It's better than just sitting around talking about it, that. If I could just get rid of the battle mouse-over bug, I'd be happy. They are still selling the game, and it is their responsibility to inform people of the issues with it on more modern PCs (and a majority of gamers are not going to come to places like here at the Org or other Total War sites, they've only bought the game to play it casually). I knew there could be issues back in 2006 when I got Medieval Gold, but I was lucky. Others won't know, and won't be so lucky, even if it's as simple as only needing the button fix or tweaking a few graphics card settings. They'll be frustrated and want to return the game, and feel cheated by CA or Nvidia, or both. Not really that good for reputation. As long as a game is sold, there should be some semblance of support, not a pretence that all is fine. It is also inefficient to continue selling the game, expending resources on the production of the software and other items and shipping them to stores, if the most probable result is that people can't play it.
It is not as if anyone is looking to pirate the game by having the source code. Mentioned before is the fact that anything done with the source code would still require that people have the original game. That means people will still be paying for the game. Sure, there will be people who pirate the game, nothing can stop that. But short of not producing and selling any games, only so much can be done to combat that. Punishing paying customers and those of us who are honest and only have good intentions is not the way to combat it. Nothing malicious will be done with the source code, and it only needs to be given to certain trusted people. CA and Sega both know that people can be trusted in this manner, too - look at Jack Lusted. He tried his darned best to fix Rome and Medieval 2, and eventually got hired by CA because of his contribution. They believed in him enough to allow him to become more intimately involved with the development of their games. They trusted him, that he was right about the flaws in the games. It would not be so different with providing someone with the source code. We swing it in our favour by suggesting we pay to have it - maybe to 'hire' it, even, rather than own it. Non-disclosure agreements are all that is required, only certain modders being allowed to have access to the code. And even if someone did distribute it further and pirated it...all games have been pirated, and again it does not mean we are all like that. Most people will not go down that route, most are willing to pay for the game. Something about not stealing. CA and Sega would do well not to be too pessimistic about Human nature, it is insulting.
I believe the issue is even being made more complex than need be. Non-disclosure agreements, paying to be able to have access to altering the code, maybe even a system that stops it (or does a very good job at trying to stop it) from being distributed beyond the original recipients. Maybe something along the lines of CD-keys, and they can only be registered once. This could make everyone happy. And it could net CA and Sega more money and a better reputation. Medieval Total War is a timeless game. It is at a time when the Total War games were really only just starting. It is as classical as Age of Empires and Age of Empires 2, or Doom and Doom 2. Same goes for Shogun. Do they really want to let this game die?
It takes a lot of effort to alter the source code for a game, anyway. And an artistic eye, nonetheless. Your generic pirates aren't going to get anything from pirating the source code. There probably wouldn't even be any effort put into distributing it. We're not talking about downloading something to play here (although I am NOT endorsing such an action, might I add), we're talking about modding. Not only that, but programming and coding. Most people do not have the patience or the time to do any of that. If they have the skills, then they are less likely to be the scum that doesn't pay for games because they probably want to do something with programming as a career. People who mod and who code do not steal, they are not the common thieves CA and Sega might be taking them for. These are people who would easily sympathise, not just empathise, with the pain endured through seeing your artistic/commercial property stolen. They don't even want people to steal any of their work. And I don't think people like being hypocrits, so...
It is definitely time for us to do something. Either we make a concerted effort to make a future for MTW, or we just decide to play it until we no longer can and let it fade into the darkness of the past.
PS: Besides, petitions won't be enough by themselves - individuals are smart, but get people into large masses and see their true nature :laugh4:. What we need is to argue our points and ensure that we are in the right. Debates are all about that - argue your points, take what you can from your opponent, and still find a way to be right somehow and win. No point in trying to lose.
Very good point Kaidonni.
I was recently playing a bit of Medieval: Total War, to remind myself of the glory days of the Total War series, and I still throughly enjoyed the medieval and historic feel of the game, something which cannot be reproduced at all in M2TW. And at the same time I thought it's a real shame we can't do anything to fix the diplomacy and other bugs which clear hinder the game progress.
:no:
I'm not sure as to the legality of that, though you probably have a point. You never see "maximum system requirements" on games, though there are a lot of old games still sold that either won't run well or won't run at all on newer hardware/software. From an ethical standpoint, CA were still selling STW/MTW as parts of the eras pack, so the problems should have been resolved by way of a patch prior to it's release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaidonni
Exactly, but this is the world of proprietary software. Proprietary software assumes us all to be no better than thieves. We must then prove our innocence by passing the DRM. If we pass the DRM we're no longer a thief, even if we're someone that bypassed it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaidonni
You're on the wrong track here. If the source code is released, it should be released in it's entirety and available for download. The source code would be the code to the Medieval/Shogun win32 .exe files and any accompanying .dll files. CA need not release any of the game content. To clarify "game content" this is what modders modify: Graphics, scripts, sounds etc (about 95% of what comes on the CD is the game content).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaidonni
Modders != programmers. Medieval/Shogun was coded in C/C++ using MSVC++ if I recall correctly. Unless any of our modders here are highly experienced with this, then they haven't much hope of doing anything with the source code. Editing a few .txt files is a whole different ballgame to coding. Once released, the source code will find it's way to the right people. There is no need for teams of lawyers or non disclosure agreements between individuals/companies.
Quite frankly: Yes they do - and I am surprised at some of the naivety here. This is not about the fans, Total War or CA, but the multi-billion dollar profits of SEGA. STW/MTW is an old game engine. It has been abandoned and it is obvious that CA want to invest no time or effort in it. Hopefully you will get sick of trying to get MTW to work and go off and buy CA's newer games instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaidonni
Oh and I may be somewhat off the mark here, but it seems to me that CA representatives never post in the forums for the older games. This thread was started over a year ago and still not one CA reply to date. This is probably policy. In short gentlemen you and your little predicament don't exist in the eyes of CA.
I'm afraid it's the latter option. You haven't a hope in hell of making this company release source code to anyone unless it benefits them. And they're not unusual in that. There are plenty of other companies hanging on to the source code of 10 - 20 year old titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaidonni
They have released source code to a company porting RTW to the Mac - so where there's money to be made code can and will be released. STW/MTW source code will not be released because there's simply no profit in it.
:bow:
My point being.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
Either somebody BUYS it off them for a big amount of money or we all make a team effort and we actually start a petition for the MTW source code to be released to specially designed modders.
1) It would take more investment that any individual or company would be prepared to stump up. You're talking about a major investment in time, money, lawyers and people and companies, that have this at their disposal already - like the one are porting RTW to the Mac - wouldn't be interested. The potential consumer base is too small.Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
2) Historically CA ignore petitions - they even ignored this thread.
As I said: In the eyes of CA this is not an issue, it's not even happening.
:book2:
I use C++ and have the source to another game most of which I can readily understand. Though there is a TON of code there, it's all broken down into parts, and you don't need to understand all of it to do anything with it. It's not like C++ is encrypted, unless of course the CA programmers were evil.Quote:
Medieval/Shogun was coded in C/C++ using MSVC++ if I recall correctly. Unless any of our modders here are highly experienced with this, then they haven't much hope of doing anything with the source code. Editing a few .txt files is a whole different ballgame to coding.
Still, of course, our chance of getting it any time in the forseeable future is ~0%.
The parts of the code that allow you to change that which directly relates to the gameplay is more simplistic, i.e. hard coded events etc. It's when it gets to the game engine itself and DirectX function calls that it gets quite a bit more advanced. One of the first steps to improving the game IMHO would be porting it to OpenGL - thus getting rid of DirectX and any further driver/DirectX version/OS version issues that would arise from it (remember that OpenGL has an inbuilt software render so if all else fails you could do that - I often wonder what the old software render in shogun was based on and what happened to it in MTW?). Also with a Win32/OSX/Linux multiplatform approach there will be enough people working on it and interested, to make the best possible job of it.
But anyway, they won't release the code so yes this is all hypothetical at best.
Anyway - what am I doing here? Another time perhaps.
:bow:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
1) Major investment as in? You just need someone to buy it, one lawyer to sort the papers, a handful of dedicated guys to rework and then the lawyer again to strike a deal with CA. Simple as that.
2) That's very true. But I believe in the "There's a beginning for everything..."
Hi people,
While I am totally sympathetic to your goal here Edyz, I believe that both Caravel and Garnier are right. And that pretty much sets "the seal of doom" for me on this, if that makes any sense here? If you want to peruse this I won’t stop you of course, but I won’t help much either since I just like the others don’t see how this will happen any time soon (if ever), sad but true….
Anyway, dont listen to boring 'ol gloomy me - keep on going if you believe in it strongly enough! It probably would have generated more money out of MTW, but CA obviously does not see things that way (yet, let’s hope that this will change, it did happen with the Myth 2-game so it’s not completely impossible)…
- Cheers
*Grand visions of mod allowing the actual campaign map to be played on multiplayer* O.K. back to reality :)
I would personally contribute a sizable sum towards working out the annoying graphics cards issues with newer cards,as this has destroyed what was one of the best games for me..
This goes to show the atachment Total War veterans have towards this game...Quote:
Originally Posted by oz_wwjd
Creative Assembly, please take notice.
In Information Systems 300 our professor told us that sometimes customer service is so bad sometimes that people build anti-sites. The example she gave was www.ihatedell.com
Perhaps we could do something similar for TCA? since asking them nicely isn't doing anything?
just a thought I had, perhaps it would motivate them more to fix the problems...
Well if someone wants to contact CA,and find out if they are willing to sell,or at least let us look at the source code,as I can't see Nvidia fixing this anytime soon. With so many dedicated modders here,I'm 99% sure we could fix the problem,IF we can get a look at the code and find out what's causing the problems in the first place..
What would be the best way to contact CA and see what they are willing to do for us,about the MTW souce code? Not exactly sure of the best way to get in contact with them,except for the tech support e-mail address..
Modders are not programmers. In order to fix the problems in MTW you would need to give full source code to an experienced C/C++ coder.Quote:
Originally Posted by oz_wwjd
Have a look at CA's site but don't expect any replies. At best you will get a generic, politically worded answer. In a nutshell you are wasting your time and this thread is a complete waste of time. Sorry to be negative, but this thread will still be here in a few years and nothing will have changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by oz_wwjd
If someone actually goes to the CA offices with a letter/petition in hand signed by a lot of people, then I'm sure they will have at least a thought over it.
Plus, they can only gain after it.
I hate to rain on your parade, but it ain't gonna happen.
Hello,
It is not simple for the games developers to release the source code for a game. The CA team of today are not the CA team of 2000 - 2002. Also when it comes to source code, it is not just the developer that can decide about this, the publisher(s) is also a big factor. The "intellectual property" is also a factor, the source code may be jointly owned. In short it's bound to be very complex.
I have read about cases like this before, where the rights to a certain game were owned not by the developers but by a previous publisher which prevented the game source ever being released. The publisher in question refused to cooperate so nothing came of it.
There is also the fact that CA have shown no willingness to provide any assistance to those still trying to play STW/MTW. There have been no posts in this thread from CA representatives after almost 2 years.
CA have also stated on numerous occasions in the past that they discount "online petitions" - so I doubt written petitions would carry much weight either. Besides it would be rather difficult to get together a written petition of any real value, considering this is all internet based and people like to protect their anonymity. There is also the small matter of this thread only consisting of 2 pages and a handful of people. Do you believe a company like CA will take notice of this small minority?
I am quite certain that this is not going to happen - for what it's worth I support what you are trying to do and agree with it in principle. But looking at this realistically, CA are not going to provide the source code for this game.
Regards
Yohei
Good post Yohei.
In any case MTW is history for CA - there is insider info that they won't touch the game code to fix problems and i very much doubt that they have any benefit or intention to release the code for free or otherwise. The old TWs will die off and that's it. Buy Nappy :)
The only hope is that CA/Activision/SEGA/Whomever else give someone like Good Old Games the rights to fix the software/hardware issues that affect newer systems. But, CA and it's publishing companies over the years have become more and more detached from the community and also the needs of the consumer (ETW/NTW lack of mod tools a key example). Personally (and this is based on my marketing knowledge) I feel that the series will not continue much longer and as a going concern Creative Assembly will not exist much longer either. There is a significant disconnect between what they are producing and the needs and wants of the PC gaming consumer.
And yet they sell more than ever before. I read a post a ttwcentre that even claimed that the pre-orders for NTW made more sales than RTW to date.
There is no doubt that CA moved away from its core community. The guys in twc that have "started playing since Shogun" may be a dime a dozen, but in reality one can tell that the vast majority of them joined after RTW/M2. Despite the complaining waves and even the poor user reception for ETW,TW as a commercial venture is alive and well, and as far as this is so i cant see them quiting or SEGA letting them quit.
If and when CA makes a RTW2 or anything else there are enough fanboys and general interest from the pc gaming market to keep them going for another 10 years with or without mod tools. The multiplayer camp may also well be a huge success. I have to admit that it is cleverly implemented (only two players and one is playing against the other in any battle the other fights be it against the player or the AI factions), and would have loved to play such in the older games. If this is a success, complains about the AI, and indeed a need for a very advanced AI may well be a thing of the past.
MP is only a small, though important, niche and will probably remain that way. The issue is still campaign map AI and diplomacy which have been found wanting. Yes the average player, or CA's "casual gamer" as they're referred to nowadays, that is to say their target consumer, may overlook crappy fastclicking battles but not shortcomings/bugs on the campaign map level.Quote:
Originally Posted by gollum
Well that's exactly the point - that competitive mp play in battles only had a small fraction of the market, but campaign mp may well be a success in that, and in this case, diplomacy and AI won't be that much of a problem. A campaign mp game will be satisfying because the battles will be and because in the campaign the other player will also be trying to smack you.
To be honest its not that newer total wars lack tactical and strategic dimensions, but that these are terribly underworked and lack optimisation. The reasons for this are well known/suspected: there is an emphasis in graphics and presentation, an emphasis in additional features and games within the game t make the game more broad in its appeal and more pleasing etc However the core game has not been lost, its been simply carried over and used to fill commercial expectations rather than improving it. This is the major sin of ca and tw for me, that they wanted to succeed more than they wanted to succeed in their own terms. However, they had every right, from the start to do so; its their game.
To the point: i dont think that tw will dissapearany time soon.
:bow:
I looked over this thread again and noticed the overwhelming majority at the poll - 38 for, 3 against.
This shows how much support MTW has.
I fired up MTW a couple of days ago, and all of those good memories, the "feeling" you had when you started up MTW came back to me. A glorious moment.
The market that was catered to starting with the 2nd generation TW games (Rome, MTW2) demand graphical updates at such a pace that furtherQuote:
Originally Posted by gollum
improvements to the basic game mechanics and features are unlikely to occur. This is the biggest problem concerning the continuation of the
franchise. What the consumers want and will get are more polygons, higher resolution textures, and better particle effects that steal so many working
hours and resources to produce that increasing, say, the number of men on the battlefield (a real and tangible gameplay dynamic) becomes
extremely difficult. By fixating on updates to the textures of the troops, increased computing power will only be wasted to please the
graphics craving masses rather than increasing the number of men that can smoothly be displayed. Or think of the balance issues
that could be better sorted out with more time alloted.
And on the AI side of things, it will only get worse which we STW/MTW players are well aware of.
The direction taken by CA during the last 7-8 years do indicate that an expansion in features rather than meaningful and polishedQuote:
Originally Posted by gollum
gameplay mechanics is the norm. So yes, you are unfortunately right. We oldtimers are commercially insignificant due to not
providing a revenue stream to SEGA anymore. A petition changes nothing, and as said by others, complaining about lack
of support for older titles is a waste of time...
Indeed :smiley:Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
I reckon that the Main Hall needs a new story for the "Pics and History" thread. Maybe I'll step up....
You most certainly should step up Durango - you could even start your own thread. I love reading AARs.
:bow:
The time honored "Risk" styled game never gets old.
I definately prefer the 'bland' risk style strat map to the colorful 'deep' map of editions of TW following MTW.
You're not the only one who feel that way. I really dislike the gaudy, cartoonish and "gamey" campaign map in comparison with the traditionalQuote:
Originally Posted by A Nerd
parchment look. Everybody agrees that MTW has way more atmosphere, yet few admit that the exaggerated graphics of today look worse.
If they could somehow combine today's flashy graphics with the old strat map and field battles, that would be great!
edit: I actually think the current strat map feels alittle more desolate than the old one.
I do. not that I talk much of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Durango
as to sourcecodes: I agree, CA can, and should, release the sourcecodes: ID (my favorite company for all FPS needs), has done that for Q's 1-3, as mentioned earlier, and they have yet to collapse. in fact, they were bought up, as CA was, by a larger company. (since sega now "owns" CA)
now I figured I might get in trouble for what I'm about to say next, but I am currently so fed up with the ridiculous limitations I see in all CA games since MTW, that I have-no kidding-started work on a new executable, a new game. it'l be similar to the TW series, with-hopefully, the best features of all the games put together and improved-from scratch of course, seeing as hacking the exe is illegal, and no source code exists.. other than that, I'm not going to go into the details.
EDIT: no, I am not in favor of hacking, piracy, or anything of that sort. I never realeased the virus to the public either.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Sounds very, very ambitious. I commend your dedication :bow:
A couple of questions:
1. What is your "philosophy" when it comes to strategy games? What is most important to you?
2. What kind of overall graphical fidelity will the game feature?
3. How long could it take for you to finish this project?
4. How many people do you expect to involve in this?
5. Do you have a need for someone to perform graphical tasks and design the aesthetical look of certain game features?
You can check out the campaign map that I made for MTW XL if you want, it's in the modding section. I have looked into
various ways to enhance the graphical feel of the original game ever since I got it.
Cheers!
Good luck with that Ibrahim, programming is quite fun, and far more an art than a science i've been told.
:bow:
Good luck, but if you're only just learning programming I recommend you accomplish much simpler things that will be useful, first. MTW took years to complete and that was a team of paid professionals.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
@ garnier: that's actually what I'm doing atm
but back to business: we are all, for the most part, of the same mind anyways: It is indeed a good idea to send a petition to the CA for source codes. should we make an official petition paper, stating our aims? we can type in our names (user or real, up to the OP), and get as many people as possible to sign it. of course we need a strong leader/lobbyist to argue the point, for as many people already mentioned, a petition by itself won't be noticed by CA.
or should we just show them this thread? I persoanally prefer the former. its more formal, and can more effectively sum up our position.
I definitely agree with Ibrahim regarding the formal petition. I'm done with finals this upcoming week, I'll draft up an initial petition if some people agree with it after reading my post.
:yes:
I was wondering if anyone agrees with the petition, a.k.a. ready to sign it. ~:)
Sounds like a good idea to me. MTW was so enjoyable, it would be nice to see what more could come of it. Also, it would be a shame to let MTW be relegated to the past.
well, now that I'm back in force, I say we get to it. :beam:
who will draw the petition up?
How's about we do a common petition aka more of us draft it up? I'm up for it.
sure. now to coordinate.Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
I agree with this quote. mtw has more atmosphere. The maps of rtw and mtw2 aint so bad but the maps of empire and napoleon are real bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Durango
I dunno how anyone can those two maps seriously if you are over 16. its like moving kids cartoon pieces around dolls houses.
Well that's how I usually think of the RTW/M2TW map. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytchfynder
CA should follow the example of these guys IMO
Just thinking out loud..CA could pull off a major PR coup and positive publicity by releasing some kind of 'charity version' of med1 and shogun1 combined with the bulk of profits going to charity and the rest covering their expenses in allocating a few CA guys to work with the source code and trusted/respected modders or coders in the community fanbase.
mtw1 & stw1 combined with original risk campaign map fixed up for w7 and modern grafix cards and battles maybe tweaked up to rtw standards.
rtw battles still look ok and a charity version would sell well cos people would be helping others plus plenty of people in the world without monster gaming rigs and aint too bothered by mega flashy graphics.