What to do about "undiscovered" natives?

A good article about it here:

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p.../article/5305/

So what is best for these people? I'm pretty sure they'd be rather happy to avoid having their mothers die while giving birth and they'll appreciate items like matches which will probably make life a lot easier.

But on the other hand, how high is the chance that some militia/government/corporation decides they want their land and exterminate the lot of them? Remember, they don't exactly live in peaceful and democratic countries...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

But on the other hand, how high is the chance that some militia/government/corporation decides they want their land and exterminate the lot of them?

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Somewhere between very small and none at all.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Somewhere between very small and none at all.

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You do realize that it has happened quite a few times, yes...?

Ultimately we should be thinking if we should even make contact with them on account of their isolation having isolated them from the major diseases of the world - they could be quite happy to make friends with us and enjoy the modern world, but by doing so they could quite easily all be wiped out by the common cold.

Lets send them some blankets.

I'm distinctly in favor of letting them "find" the rest of us, not the other way around. One thing that never ceases to annoy the crap out of me is when these christian missionaries make it a point to find these people and essentially destroy their culture and way of life, and at the same time bringing them some wonderful gifts in the way of diseases that end up killing quite a few of them. Leave em be.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

I'm distinctly in favor of letting them "find" the rest of us, not the other way around. One thing that never ceases to annoy the crap out of me is when these christian missionaries make it a point to find these people and essentially destroy their culture and way of life, and at the same time bringing them some wonderful gifts in the way of diseases that end up killing quite a few of them. Leave em be.

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Boy you've become cynical havent you? You're ageing well Whacker :thumbsup:

To answer the question, as long as they arent threatened lets leave them be shall we? :yes:

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Originally Posted by Odin

To answer the question, as long as they arent threatened lets leave them be shall we? :yes:

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But according to the article, they are threatened, by poverty. Life expectancy of 35-40, high percentages of mothers dying under birth, high percentage of infant deaths, etc etc...

They are human beings, after all. If we can significantly improve their lives by simple things like matches, metal tools, basic medicine, etc, how can we not do that?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

But according to the article, they are threatened, by poverty. Life expectancy of 35-40, high percentages of mothers dying under birth, high percentage of infant deaths, etc etc...

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this is subjective Hore Tore maybe by their standards they are living in the lap of luxury.

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They are human beings, after all. If we can significantly improve their lives by simple things like matches, metal tools, basic medicine, etc, how can we not do that?

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Improve by who's standards? If they ask us to come in I am all for it, but the imposition of improvements to others lives has a couple of failed examples through history dont you think commrade Lenin? :wiseguy:

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Originally Posted by Odin

this is subjective Hore Tore maybe by their standards they are living in the lap of luxury.

Improve by who's standards? If they ask us to come in I am all for it, but the imposition of improvements to others lives has a couple of failed examples through history dont you think commrade Lenin? :wiseguy:

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Of course, I'm trying to generate some sort of debate here ~;)

But as the guy in the article says:

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The Australian government followed a sensible, enlightened policy that allowed the indigenous people to develop at their own pace. They stopped encroachment by missionaries and miners, set up regular trading posts in the interior, and simply waited for the native people to approach. Contrary to the view of groups like Survival, native peoples are not stupid. They have always heard a great deal about the white men from contact with other tribes. They know that ‘white man’s medicine’ offers better treatment for many conditions than the tribal shaman. They know the value of metal tools and matches – simple implements that can mean the difference between starvation and survival. They know their lives are hard and not as full of ‘social and leisure activities’ as Survival’s ‘experts’ believe.

They would prefer not to have to lose their wives during childbirth, that half their children would not die within the first two years of their lives, and for outsiders to stop the brutal retaliatory wars between tribes that often start as an accident but must then escalate as ‘payback’. They quickly understand the value of disease-prevention (by vaccination or malaria eradication).

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Okay fine set up the trading posts but the intent still bothers me. Its being done under the pretense of improving their lives because we feel we could improve them. Again, if the pretense changes too "they are in serious danger lets start the process now" sign me up.

If you want debate you are going to have to pick something far more emotional, or become more sensational in you're presentation Hore Tore.

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Originally Posted by Odin

If you want debate you are going to have to pick something far more emotional, or become more sensational in you're presentation Hore Tore.

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Haha, I usually leave the gun threads for CR and tribesman :laugh4:

Haven't any of you mooks played Civilization? You move in a scout or a warrior, and you usually get some cash, a bonus tech, a free scout, a free settler or XP for your unit. Sometimes the villagers are hostile, and they spawn like eight spearmen who go ape on your unit.

I thought a forum of Total War addicts would be on the ball when it comes to native villages ...

I say we get in there and trade any valuables they might have for shinny pieces of glass and coca-cola!

:smash:

I'm all about the Prime Directive, baby.

Maybe we should just join them and leave our modern gizmos behind?:indian_chief:

Assimilate them! :charge:

I say we dress up Devastatin' Dave in some tubes and wires and we rename him Locutus of Borg. The we drop him among those silly grass-skirt-wearing natives and coach him to say "Resistance is futile" over and over again. Then we film the whole thing for a basic cable channel.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I say we dress up Devastatin' Dave in some tubes and wires and we rename him Locutus of Borg. The we drop him among those silly grass-skirt-wearing natives and coach him to say "Resistance is futile" over and over again. Then we film the whole thing for a basic cable channel.

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But if we drop DevDave in there. I have my doubts whether anything other then some xrated channel will show the material, once Dave starts the "assimilation" rituals with the locals.:drama1:

I don't think there is much we can do without it turning into Neo-colonialism. Leave them be - they are happy, so why should we care?

Arrive on a horse with a gun. You'll be worshipped like a god and can enjoy their lands :grin2:

I'm surprised no one said "Let's give them human rights and democracy". Not that they need it. :laugh4:

Dude. Leave them the hell alone. God knows I would rather have lives 35-40 years as an innocent villager than live in this psychotic world.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I'm all about the Prime Directive, baby.

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~:confused: ...What the hell's that? Firebomb them and convert the suriviors to Christianity?

Star Trek reference, shouldn't interfere with a less advanced peoples technological advancment

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Originally Posted by Reverend Joe

Dude. Leave them the hell alone. God knows I would rather have lives 35-40 years as an innocent villager than live in this psychotic world.



~:confused: ...What the hell's that? Firebomb them and convert the suriviors to Christianity?

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Go watch some Star Trek. Then you'll get the reference.

The fact you're on this, a forum full of geeks, and don't get Star Trek references is, quite frankly, shocking and disturbing.

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Originally Posted by Mikeus Caesar

Go watch some Star Trek.

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I was afraid of that... I have vague memories of references to such a thing on other shows, generally in mocking reference to it.

And, frankly, I pride myself on not knowing what all that ridiculous crap means.

It seems to me the people behind the 'Survival International' Group are bigots of the highest order.

How many among us would really like to live such a life, where half (or more!) of those born die in childhood, where every day is a struggle, literally, to survive? So what must the 'Survival' group think of those people to insist they enjoy it and that such a life is best for them. I can hardly comprehend it.

If you saw your neighbor living in a hut like an ancient peasant, barely scraping by on sustenance farming, half of their children dead, would you pass them by, thinking they must enjoy it?

Something like what Australia did in PNG would seem best in this situation.

CR

And, frankly, I pride myself on not knowing what all that ridiculous crap means.

I wouldn't even class myself as a trekkie, i think i became a fully fledged geek with my explanation of the prime directive... lets keep that to ourselves ;)

Leave em be, helping out others only gets you in trouble. Besides, according to Cannibal Holocaust the jungle is where non-natives go to die unless they have a tape recorder.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

It seems to me the people behind the 'Survival International' Group are bigots of the highest order.

How many among us would really like to live such a life, where half (or more!) of those born die in childhood, where every day is a struggle, literally, to survive? So what must the 'Survival' group think of those people to insist they enjoy it and that such a life is best for them. I can hardly comprehend it.

If you saw your neighbor living in a hut like an ancient peasant, barely scraping by on sustenance farming, half of their children dead, would you pass them by, thinking they must enjoy it?

Something like what Australia did in PNG would seem best in this situation.

CR

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I bet they're having a snowball fight in hell, CR and I are in complete agreement :laugh4:

The incomparable David Attenborough made a documentary about meeting an undiscovered tribe. He went to New Guinea, along with some Aussie government eh, somethings, to establish contact. It was filmed way back in 1970. Great program. It's titled 'A Blank on the Map'. I got it on dvd, it should probably float around on some internets.

I've lost my ability to post coherent posts in English lately so i won't post any extensive comment on it.

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Originally Posted by Mikeus Caesar

a forum full of geeks

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Geeks!? Here? Pah!

Watch me dance in this cool video and then tell me I'm a geek.

Tsk. :no:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Watch me dance in this cool video and then tell me I'm a geek.

Tsk. :no:

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Nice moves. More appropriate for the dojo then the dance floor though. I give it 1 out of 10 for dance, and 7 out of ten when judged by martial arts ability.

Anyone remember the name of the 'undiscovered' amazon tribe that was really a bunch of actors who had been paid off?

My bet is that they're descendents of former members of the third reich. There got Godwin in.

:7firefighter:

I can't help but think someone else might be thinking along the same lines as I am:


What would we want if Aliens :alien: could magically appear and cure almost all of our diseases, double or triple our life spans, and introduce us to technologies beyond our wildest imaginations?

What if that meant introducing us to a universal civilization and strange foreign new existential perspectives, thus shattering our current world view as "superior beings in God's image": the invalidation of Jesus Christ, Mohammed, et al. ?


Would you scream in fear and fight change, or would you adapt and welcome our new leaders?


:7firefighter:

Div, if it means having a risk between being "visited" by Klingons first or the Vulcans, I'd rather risk neither.

Do you think the soil around there is strong enough to support a casino?:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

:7firefighter:

I can't help but think someone else might be thinking along the same lines as I am:


What would we want if Aliens :alien: could magically appear and cure almost all of our diseases, double or triple our life spans, and introduce us to technologies beyond our wildest imaginations?

What if that meant introducing us to a universal civilization and strange foreign new existential perspectives, thus shattering our current world view as "superior beings in God's image": the invalidation of Jesus Christ, Mohammed, et al. ?


Would you scream in fear and fight change, or would you adapt and welcome our new leaders?


:7firefighter:

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I would probably want things to go slowly at first. Let people get used to the change over time ya know? Drastic change over a short period is rarely good for a number of reasons and would probably end up in all sorts of social strife. Just look at colonization, revolutions and so on.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

:7firefighter:

I can't help but think someone else might be thinking along the same lines as I am:


What would we want if Aliens :alien: could magically appear and cure almost all of our diseases, double or triple our life spans, and introduce us to technologies beyond our wildest imaginations?

What if that meant introducing us to a universal civilization and strange foreign new existential perspectives, thus shattering our current world view as "superior beings in God's image": the invalidation of Jesus Christ, Mohammed, et al. ?


Would you scream in fear and fight change, or would you adapt and welcome our new leaders?


:7firefighter:

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I'd embrace the technology. And to put it this way; I'd much rather sit here than running around in Amazonas shooting poison arrows after silly small animals, and staring with awe and fear at helicopters.

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Originally Posted by Viking

I'd embrace the technology. And to put it this way; I'd much rather sit here than running around in Amazonas shooting poison arrows after silly small animals, and staring with awe and fear at helicopters.

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But what if you were born and raised in the Amazon? Would you feel the same way?

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Originally Posted by CountArach

But what if you were born and raised in the Amazon? Would you feel the same way?

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That's a thought experiment and impossible to answer; though I suppose belonging to two cultures would always make you long for the other. Basically, I guess that you'll like whatever culture you live in as long as you're integrated.

It was sort of in reply to RJ that said

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God knows I would rather have lives 35-40 years as an innocent villager than live in this psychotic world.

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...though the chances are high that if he didn't know about anything but that little village he could very well be calling that world "psychotic" also. :yes:

What must have been going through their minds when they saw that plane? :dizzy2:

I say we show them Lord of the Rings or something like that and tell them that this is our history. Or maybe a horror film like 'The Ring'. So then we can make up a religion for them to follow. That would all make a funny programme.

I remember that a very old film was made in which dead soldiers were supposed to be rising from the battlefields of WWI. When it was shown to some well-off people (British or maybe American I think), they were absolutely horrified and started fainting and all the rest.

If we showed these tribes a modern day film with all the latest effects, it would be amazing to see how they react.

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Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr

What must have been going through their minds when they saw that plane? :dizzy2:

I say we show them Lord of the Rings or something like that and tell them that this is our history. Or maybe a horror film like 'The Ring'. So then we can make up a religion for them to follow. That would all make a funny programme.

I remember that a very old film was made in which dead soldiers were supposed to be rising from the battlefields of WWI. When it was shown to some well-off people (British or maybe American I think), they were absolutely horrified and started fainting and all the rest.

If we showed these tribes a modern day film with all the latest effects, it would be amazing to see how they react.

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Somehow i think they'd be more amazed at the simple things we take for granted, such as wheels.

And the first crack appears :laugh4:

If they live in your country and don't adknowledge your soverignity then surley that's as bad as civil war? DISCLAIMER: Just a point to be debated, not to really be taken as a serious view and/or extradite me upon

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Originally Posted by CountArach

But what if you were born and raised in the Amazon? Would you feel the same way?

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It's like people told by their parents that God exists or not; they will generally answer, when asked which religion they would have chosen with information, their own although often be unable to provide much logic.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Do you think the soil around there is strong enough to support a casino?:laugh4:

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ROFL!!!

Teh best answer. Takes care of the do-gooders and leave-em-aloners at the same time. Ouch.

Well said, my friend, well said. :bow:

If an undiscovered native falls in a forest, does she/ he make a sound? :dizzy2: