Do you retrain?

Simple enough question, I'm wondering how many people retrain their units, rather than merging or even just replacing with freshly-recruited ones.

It's well known that the AI rarely retrains with the exception of with alex.exe. So in a lot of ways if you're playing with any other executably, it's effectively an exploit in favour of the human player.

It's also, IMO, pretty unrealistic too, given you can restore a veteran unit with a handful of survivors right back to it's old effectiveness. And in only a season, doing the same with potentially several units at once.

So do you do it?

In my Romani campaigns I disband my legions after 16 years and don't retrain them during their lifespan. I would recruit an "emergency legion" if necessary rather than retrain, but have never had call to do so.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

It's well known that the AI rarely retrains with the exception of with alex.exe. So in a lot of ways if you're playing with any other executably, it's effectively an exploit in favour of the human player.

It's also, IMO, pretty unrealistic too, given you can restore a veteran unit with a handful of survivors right back to it's old effectiveness. And in only a season, doing the same with potentially several units at once.

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I wouldn't say it's an exploit just because the AI doesn't use it, it's still a legitimate game mechanic. It'd be kind of like calling naval invasions an exploit since the AI rarely if ever does them (at least, not coordinated invasions).

When I retrain a veteran unit, I almost always lose chevrons. Especially when there are only a handful of men left; I've seen silver chevron units drop to 1 or 2 bronze.

I used to a lot for my legions, but I've just re-started a new camaign on 1.1, with loads of mini-mods so I will now use fresh drafts to re-inforce.
I would like to disband legions after a term of service but it takes to long to re-recruit, an area that is good in MTW2.

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Originally Posted by sanitarium

When I retrain a veteran unit, I almost always lose chevrons. Especially when there are only a handful of men left; I've seen silver chevron units drop to 1 or 2 bronze.

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In the handful of times I've retrained, I've never seen loss of experience, no matter how depleted a unit is.

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Originally Posted by Chris1959

I would like to disband legions after a term of service but it takes to long to re-recruit, an area that is good in MTW2.

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Too long? When you've got all your Italian towns able to recruit either Romans or Italian allies, it takes two, or at most three turns to create a full stack consular army.

Which you can always do in advance of disbanding the old army.

Yes, but only in originating provinces and only factional troops (allied troops are disbanded in their home province). I generally merge and then retrain (if above 50% strength) or disband (if below). It works well and helps to model the veteran core of troops that tend to stay.

When you have 90 provinces and 20 armies it's simply too much of a hassle to bother with those things. Easier to just send your full army home.

Exploit? If I had the ability to have bureaucrats fix all that shit for me, like the kings had, yes then it would be.

"No, and I play with alex.exe" got my vote

I consider retraining a cheat, so I just don't use it. But I do think that if the ai can benefit from it, it should be allowed to use it :yes:

It's too boring to have to create new units and merge them together.

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Originally Posted by Dumbass

It's too boring to have to create new units and merge them together.

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And having to ship an entire army back to your homeland (who's replacing them in the meantime?) isn't?

i'm guilty on massive retraining :shame:

It's not a crime to play the game the way you want to.

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Originally Posted by johnhughthom

It's not a crime to play the game the way you want to.

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True enough.

I retrain in the beginning of campaigns, but it becomes more rarely when I expand.

On a side note. I play with BI.exe and I see the AI retraining constantly!!! Only the Eleutheroi don't retrain in my campaigns.

Yes.

It annoys me to hell to have an army with under strength units, Half the time I fight a battle, retrain, send them out again, they fight, get sent home and retrain.

Not realistic most likely but eh.

Ive given pretty in depth reasons in another thread, but I would say its also pretty annoying to fight with small scrappy units of locally trained troops - especially in defensive garrison type cities that literally get besieged every other turn for many many years.

So, I do tend to retrain on defence, but rarely do so when sending out my conquering hordes, as its easier to merge units and buy mercenaries. On that note I often have a semi stack of reinforcements following along behind for just that purpose.

Yes I retrain all the time, I have 6 legions, two on active campaign, one in reserve in Rome, and three on defense in three "sectors" I created-Greece, Iberia and Cisalpine Gual. The two on campaign are relatively fresh, my reserve was recently on the front line but I moved them back to Rome to celebrate a triumph. I am going to transport the reserve back to the frontline soon, Carthage/North Africa, and put a battle worn legion back to Rome in order to retrain and act as a central reserve once again.


The System is brutally effective, making the game on vh/h really easy....

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

And having to ship an entire army back to your homeland (who's replacing them in the meantime?) isn't?

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I retrain quite alot, and I use a replacement army/force to hold the ground if needed.

I have also seen many elite units loose chevrons when retrained, usually in poportion to the casualties!

Hi all!I retrain whenever it is possible.I know, its nit right to retrain on ALEX.EXE.But I play on VH/VH.And KI get a lot of bonus experiences with the battle.I play the Romancompany.In start Aedui, Scweboz and Arverni had war with each other.Now they are all my enemies.And I see all the time a lot of them with 3 silver Chevrons.The play slowly starts to be really difficult.:embarassed:One Question:how I can reduce the KI-bonus. Which file use.:help:(Sorry for my English:shame:)

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

And having to ship an entire army back to your homeland (who's replacing them in the meantime?) isn't?

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You still have tosend out a whole stack load of units though to yours frontlines to merge and bolster your units. I prefer shipping my guys back, it also ensures I don't expand too quickly.

I generally merge old with new, but if my campaigning army is in a spot where they can retrain, I'll "top off" the less-experienced units. My veteran units tend to gradually attrition to the point of uselessness, then get merged with other worn-down units.
Once you're in my army, buddy, you'll never see home again! :whip:

of course i retrain- unless i cant.
:clown:

Depends, if it's one of those one-province, ultra-rare elites, yes. Generally easier to merge common units.

I tend to only retrain garrison units. I try to avoid being sieged in the first place by sending a reinforcement army. But in the event I am sieged, I just retrain the units regardless of their experience.

With field armies, I usually just merge units (I'll retrain if they have no experience). For severely undersized units after merging, I disband in a province and consider them veteran settlers entitled to a well-deserved retirement from active duty. It can be quite sad to see some veterans go. I had two units of depleted Dahae Riders left (after starting out with four or five on my campaign) with oodles of experience that I had to disband in Persepolis after they had accompanied the King of Kings on his journey from the steppe.:sweatdrop:

i tend to retrain often, sending an army to replace the one im bringing back home.

I should have voted "no I don't retrain and I'm using alex..." but I voted rarely...but I don't do it anymore..

If they're less than 15% of the unit or if there isn't any other similar unit nearby, I'll just disband them...

on a side note: In my last battle my FM had his 40 bodyguards killed and he was the only survivor... would that affect psicologically an ancient roman?:thinking2:

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Originally Posted by ||Lz3||

I should have voted "no I don't retrain and I'm using alex..." but I voted rarely...but I don't do it anymore..

If they're less than 15% of the unit or if there isn't any other similar unit nearby, I'll just disband them...

on a side note: In my last battle my FM had his 40 bodyguards killed and he was the only survivor... would that affect psicologically an ancient roman?:thinking2:

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He would surely belive that he was an object of a miracle, and he was destined to become Neo or he would blame Zeus, enter on a mighty crusade throughout the world to avenge his fellow comrades, in which at the end, he would cut off Zeus's beard and become the new All god of the world
:shame:

Being logical now, i'd think that would affect anyone :smash:


edit:grammar

I don't know about psychological effects, but I'll bet he got some darn good traits.

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Originally Posted by johnhughthom

I don't know about psychological effects, but I'll bet he got some darn good traits.

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Hahahah true! :laugh4:

I have no qualms about retraining, but I also don't go out of my way to retrain units unless they have at least a silver chevron or above. Most of the time, after battles I will simply merge the remaining army and if any units are below say 30-40% I will either replace them (send to a near-by area I designate as a storage point for partial units) or send them home to be retrained.

Merging the survivors loses me a stack or two every now and then, but it's the easiest way to gain chevrons I've found so far. The triple gold Triarii I got during my Roman campaign were Gods of War. I cried when the Marian reform came around and I couldn't retrain them ever again, although they were so ridiculously awesome they almost never died anyways, and I still have 2-3 units of them kicking around down in Egypt.

i tend to do both, usually as romans, merging is a must when you're far from any points you can retrain, so for every 2 army i lead there's always at least a half stack of replacements trailing behind to represent reserves+baggage train, or garrisoning a fort/settlement as a staging point.

I retrain especially when I'm actively at war.

Elites and crappy garrisons aside I tend to disband the army if I can, especially missle units. I'm aiming to get "faction specific" units with high experience rather than hordes of gold chervon sphendonetai.

As the Sweboz currently I disband everything once a campaign is done, with FMs as garrisons and merc strike forces on demand. That'll change post reforms when I can RP justify it.

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Originally Posted by johnhughthom

I don't know about psychological effects, but I'll bet he got some darn good traits.

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unfortunately... he was only a "leftenant" meaning that practically he wasn't even there... :wall:

once I had a FM with 3 silver chevrons but still had the "Green" trait cause he hadn't commanded any battle for himself...
role playing is hard... my FL has 10 management, 10 influence and 9 command stars...but he's already 57 so I don't think that he can still command armies... although Blücher could... umm what do you think Quintus?

and sorry for the offtopic :sweatdrop:

I retrain in the early stages of expansion when I can easily pop back to my recruiting centre for a top-up. Later on I tend not to, and instead send new units to the front and merge them with older units in my armies which will also start to include regional mercs.

I'm using alex.exe, but I haven't seen so far substantial evidence of the AI retraining its troops.

I do retrain units but I also merge them very often.
So on average I dont have many very experienced units.

Yes, retrain as much as possible.
I find myself doing this often during pre-Marian.

I top off less experienced units with more experienced units of the same type,
provided the unit I'm topping off with doesn't get integrated with the less experienced one.
(i.e. there are a few left to retrain).

Then I send the remains to a city where they can retrain.

This has the unrealistic effect of giving both units more chevrons
(the topped off unit gets experience from more experienced one, and the one topping off
gets more chevrons because of dilution).

My PC is too slow and I just want to finish the game as fast as I can.
Even with this I still only have a few units that have gold chevrons by
the time I got Marian Reforms.

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Originally Posted by ||Lz3||

unfortunately... he was only a "leftenant" meaning that practically he wasn't even there... :wall:

once I had a FM with 3 silver chevrons but still had the "Green" trait cause he hadn't commanded any battle for himself...
role playing is hard... my FL has 10 management, 10 influence and 9 command stars...but he's already 57 so I don't think that he can still command armies... although Blücher could... umm what do you think Quintus?

and sorry for the offtopic :sweatdrop:

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Aemilis Paullus was in his late fifties when he won Pydna. Really for Roman generals, who had to be at least 40 to even command an army, 60 was "old" to be in command.

How old was Crassus at Carrhae, or Pompey at Pharsalus?

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Originally Posted by johnhughthom

How old was Crassus at Carrhae, or Pompey at Pharsalus?

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Crassus was in his early sixties, Pompey in his late fifties (he was six years older than Caesar).

I don't consider retraining as cheating. In fact, sending new troops from your homeland into the war is easier because your main armies almost never have to stop their conquest.
My way is having a half stack (Led by a young fm) behind the army as "reserve" and merge. When the reserve stack is empty, I form a new one in the homelands and send it to the front. I don't like the micromanagement of smaller armies of single units, so I gather first and march afterwards. Also, the command of the reserve is a good task for promising fms that have yet to learn about real war and logistics when they finish academy.

There must be a trick you've got that I don't because if I don't retrain, the AI is on my arse big time.

Ok the AI doesn't retrain but it has near limitless money and always stack away all the mercenaries. I just stopped an Arverni campaign in 266. Rome attacked me almost right away while I was stuck against the Aedui. I was lucky, I finished the Aedui quickly, I moved in Italy and in 4 turns I had 5 heroic victories... I razed Arretium and Arriminium, but even then, Rome sent stack after stack of mercenaries so I couldn't keep them. I must have destroyed over 60 000 mnai (and it's surely and understatement) worth of mercenaries, but I couldn't retrain my units fast enough to keep my advance. I had to cover a debt of -36000 and fight like a devil just to keep the damn Romies south of the Po. Since I was taxing like crazy just to keep my stack running, my towns stayed small. The last battle I fought, there was pedites against me. So the AI was able to buy off ALL mercenaries in Italy, because I couldn't buy any, AND was able to max his MIC. With 4 towns. This game was going nowhere. I was disgusted. I quit.

So hell yes I will retrain.

Unless somebody gives me his trick.

:furious3:

Don't play on Very Hard campaign difficulty? The whole "every AI faction gets an extra 10,000 mnai a turn, as well as what the script gives them" business is reason enough for me not to play on VH. Because endless stacks of troops isn't "fun" it's boring. There's only so many times you can fight the same battles before it becomes pure tedium.

I ussually don't retrain and have a small stack with 1 or 2 units of common troops in my armies such as front rank troops and heavy skirmishers, which I use to replace any losses after battle.

Sometimes, if a battle is taken place near a city which can has access to a lot of my core units, I will by retraining there just because it's less of a hassle. In my Massalia game, Rome betrayed me and attacked Massalia. I relieved the siege, then after the battle retrained everything in the town and was ready to go on the advance all within 1 turn.

I always retrain, even though I agree that new recruits should not be of the same experince as the old unit...

https://img237.imageshack.us/img237/...rainnd4.th.jpg

In my last campaign (Sweeboz BI.exe VH/H) i have witnessed AI retraining, but only if i "knock" their army back in to one of their towns.

As far as the topic of this thread, yes i do retrain but it all depends on the unit. After a battle i will use similar units to top each other off to max, then send remainder back to be retrained. That only applies if retraining base is less then 4 turns away, other wise i will switch to the local units for my armies main stay. (Sweeboz example: spear/pike as army core early one, Alpine phalanx later one as i moved down south, and Baltic and Belgea spear men on my East/West expansion).
The only exception is one or two elite units i use per stack that can be acquired in only a few regions (Sweeboz ex: Celtic two hander unit and Basternista falx (sp:?) shock infantry). Those i will track back unless i find a better local sub.

I don't consider retraining an exploit by any means though, auto_win is border line (had to do it just to transport my army to Gaut land island in Baltic and put a diplomat on British soil).

I use auto_win a lot actually if I know for certain there is no way I could lose the battle. Auto_calc gives MUCH higher casualties than what I would normal have, even with auto_win I notice a higher amount in casualties then if I were to just do the battle myself. A lot of times, the front rank troops barely even get hurt while my cavalry or other rear end units take the damage. Doh!

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Originally Posted by tapanojum

I use auto_win a lot actually if I know for certain there is no way I could lose the battle. Auto_calc gives MUCH higher casualties than what I would normal have, even with auto_win I notice a higher amount in casualties then if I were to just do the battle myself. A lot of times, the front rank troops barely even get hurt while my cavalry or other rear end units take the damage. Doh!

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Cheater! :hide:

Yes, BUT!

I retrain only when my units are at full strength and can only increase in experience (to represent they are being sent to better training facilities to enhance their abilities).

Rarely, and never legions, only the few units which i grow "emotionally attached" too, when they do something extraordinary. Like routing Gesetae.

When it's a low stress time, I retrain. I don't want to bother with having extra units around and having to disband them. Sometimes it's just bothersome, so I retrain. I figure the governor of the city could easily call up just enough men to put the army back to full strength.

In wars, though, I don't retrain, as it is kind of exploitative.

I'm going to stop retraining as it is making the game way too easy for me.

Last night I easily whupped the ass of a 3.5k strong Getai force with a thousand strong KH army of silver-chevronned hoplites (of various persuasions).

It's fair to say the novelty of having experienced troops has worn off...I just don't see the Alex.exe retraining its men enough to put up a fight against mine..

i do... why not??? if i'm near one of my MIC's and my home territory, then i will...

i don't like having depleted units when i know i can bolster them back sharpish without a hassle. If i'm far away from a home MIC, then i'll probably send new armies in... though for me setting up non-factional MICs and choosing the extent to do so gets more annoying...

it depends on the level difficulty and the faction, on my first campaign i retrained, i played VH/VH with Parthians and KH, and i must say peraphs they were my first 2 campaign they were the more funny ones.

Now, i play from time to time, i never retrain and i play on VH/M, but i have to say it's not the same fun, i have to turn back on the old way sooner or later...
actually i started a 1.1 pahlava campaign on VH/M and i stopped it at 218 a.c, i never retrained, but still i got full of 2 silver chevrons horse archers. so i conclude that it's not that the problem, same with the Romans, or with other faction, if you merge well, you will got full chevroned units the same. I know you can disband your units, but it will be even more boring, cause it will became a work of book-keeping... the real problem, is the game-engine.

I have to try to resume my 2 current 1.1 (roman and pahlava) campaigns and ugrade that with SAGE on VH battle. That was the only time i got really fun in the past, and i will start to retrain again - have a struggle with the luck! you have the human intelligence, and the AI have the best of the best units (+7attack/+7defence)