Expeditionary Forces

In the spirit of the Canadian Expeditionary Force from WWI, I find myself taken with Expeditions to far away lands across the sea to not establish a foothold for further expansion, but to either raid/pillage/sack an enemy city, take an independent kingdom (like Syracuse) and just hold it and sick with it, or in the case of my alliance with Ptolemy, send forces to help in a war. I find either creating a colony or just sacking a settlement is a good way to fund your expansion in around the homefront, or just get crucial money to expand the economy.

I was wondering does anyone else do this?

I do it all the time as part of my "maintain the balance of impotence" of the AI factions. Goes hand-in-hand with using spies and assassins to destabilise their cities, and diplomats to bribe armies out of existence. If a faction attacks me, and I don't want to conquer them, I'll often launch a punitive raid to reduce their military capability, then FD a ceasefire.

Yeah, i generally don't like steamrolling a faction into dust. I'd rather keep them around so that I can either profit from them trade-wise, or through them acting as a bufferzone between my real enemies. Makedon is one of these factions I generally keep around... As the romans in vanilla i even let them keep Macedonia as my protectorate as i expanded around them.

I only know of two good coastal cities to hit though, Antioch and Syracuse. What would be another good and historically plausible target for the KH?

Black Sea coastal settlements. Eastern Spanish Coast and Southern French Coast. Kyrene.

Foot

When playing as Epeiros (which had an alliance with Hieron II due to the fact that Pyrrhos' daughter was married to him), I usually take Syrakousai asap after uniting Hellas, and installing a level 4 government there. From there, I usually take Sicily and Southern Italy.

Thanks Foot, I think I'm going to make my next Target Antioch, loot her and then leave her in trust to Ptolly, then use my fat coffers to take Syracuse and Kyrene and if theres enough left over then beefup my Northern garrisons.

Syracuse was a target for the Athenians during the Peloponnesian war... though they failed magnificently... EPIC FAIL! fools allowed their ships to get trapped inside the great harbour.

To Hax: Yeah my last campaign as the KH i RP'd an Athenian revenge mission to Syracuse to exact vengence on those dastardly Syracusians. The mission failed worse than it did in 414BC, so the Spartan King left with a force of roughly 300 Spartans and took the city with no problems ~:joker:

TO ANTIOCH! I've always wanted to get my hands on that holy hand grenade of theirs!

You attacked Syracuse with Spartans? Thats ironic...it was thanks to them that Syracuse fend off the Athenians.....:thumbsup:

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Syracuse was a target for the Athenians during the Peloponnesian war... though they failed magnificently... EPIC FAIL! fools allowed their ships to get trapped inside the great harbour.

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Also, their retreat was a failure. During the retreat, there was a lunar eclipse. They thought this to be a sign, and they asked their strategos Nikias what to do. He told them to wait with the retreat another 28 days. Those 28 days allowed the Syracusan fleet to destroy the Athenian fleet while the reinforcements from the city itself held the strait of Messina. Trapped, they were forced to surrender, which meant the end of the state of Athens as a power.

oh i know the irony in that :P but i asked them to join me when i landed the army, and they told me it was an insult... Sparta does not take their kindness being thrown in their face kindly...


hey i didnt know about the eclipse though. funny how being a little bit more level headed could have saved the Athenian fleet and possibly changed the course of the war in the Peloponnese. Would it have made much of a difference? Athens would still had a fleet to be reckoned with, but Sparta knew from the changes syracuse made to the rams (made them much heavier so they could ram the athenians headon) how to defeat the Athenian navy. The war would have gone on much longer, but I think the result would either have been the same, or a much more destructive defeat of Athens.

what do you think?


I took Antioch this morning, and now the Ptollies are marching towards Sardis, and are just outside the city walls, and are also marching 2 small armies to Antioch... Are they preparing for war?

Not only the naval part of the syracusan campaign was badly handled. Even before their naval defeats they were in deep trouble on land (but then they still had a chance to escape).

I've never really tried the whole expeditionary force thing. I mean, I've wanted to and planned to, but then something always happens that takes priority, which I then have to use my expeditionary force for. Next campaign will be as KH or Epeiros, so I'll probably do it then.

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Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk

I took Antioch this morning, and now the Ptollies are marching towards Sardis, and are just outside the city walls, and are also marching 2 small armies to Antioch... Are they preparing for war?

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If theres one thing I've learnt, it's that the Ptolies are always preparing for war.

lol these bastards are probably going to back stab me, i think im going to do what i usually do, im going to sack the settlement (sorry if you were born in Syria) and leave, though this time im going to hand the settlement over to Ptolly, and the army i think ill just keep in Syria to help with the war effort. Maybe that will give Ptolemy what he wants and hell back off and pull out of my holdings in Turkey...

If there's one thing I've learned your allies dont like you taking key settlements in their wars.

But I've notice this is a really good tactic if you are A- running low on cash B- not really running low on cash but need a quick boost to fund either a campaign or your economy (doing this is really good for raising the funds for mines or dockyards) OR C- you have a new general who needs to make a reputation for himself.

The KH are really good at this kind of strategy aswell, hoplites are very good at capturing walls (dont bother with anyhting but stonewalled settlements, they are the only ones with good money in em) and are even better at pushing into the square through narrow streets, once your in the settlement all you need is 2 decently experienced classical hoplite regiments and you'll push em back eventually, just make sure your stretched wall to wall and you're on guard mode.

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Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk

...But I've notice this is a really good tactic if you are A- running low on cash B- not really running low on cash but need a quick boost to fund either a campaign or your economy (doing this is really good for raising the funds for mines or dockyards) OR C- you have a new general who needs to make a reputation for himself.

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I must admit that this is most efficient and only strategy playing as Saka..
besiege, kill the defenders, slaughter the civilians, rob all what's not attached to the ground, raze all buildings which can be razed and leave the city unprotected...

Right now my hordes are galloping on half of the Seleukid country razing all they can (I don't use infantry units at all) making my rather wealthy ruler...

how the hell do you get inside their cities then? if you cant man rams or ladders or what not?

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Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk

how the hell do you get inside their cities then? if you cant man rams or ladders or what not?

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He could use spies to open the gates, wait for the enemy to sally and defeat them, or attack an army adjacent to the city, which will bring in the garrison as reinforcements. When they die, just walk into the city.

hmmm good call i wasn't really thinking :P im so used to taking the fight to the city, and pushing through to the square.

I gotta lay off the hoplites for a while ~:joker:

As the Sauromatae (having only my 4 starting provinces and the 2 Crimean provinces) I sent an army into Asia.

Sacked (Population 'exterminated', all buildings destroyed):
Antioch
Seleukeia
Babylon
Susa
Gabae
Persepolis

I vacated all cities except Persepolis, which I'll keep as a client-kingdom. I now have over 100,000 mnai, and only 7 provinces.

Aye!
Chris is right. I usually lay siege and wait... 90% chances that someone will come to rescue those poor souls I plan to exterminate, and than... "the day is mine"
AI sallies forth when the spy opens the gates?
Hmm never happened to me... maybe because I don't use spies :D
I'm just dumb barbarian from the steppes, dunno what da "spy" is... :D
attacking army in the city vicinty is also a good idea, happened to me maybe twice...
Hoplites, hoplites... ah! those slow, humans which looks like a dead hedgehog when I finish with them ;>

Expeditionary forces are fun to roleplay, I've made the most use of them in my Romani campaigns. I've had to send several to greece to prevent the balance of power from being upset between epeiros, makedon, and KH. I've also had a fair share of punitive expeditions into the "barbarian" gauls territory to punish various tribes that have raided my provinces.

You can also try to lure the defenders out by removing some units from your army; if the besieging force looks weak enough, they'll sally out the 1st turn. The disadvantage is that you'll have to fight against the odds and win decisively, following routers when they rush back to their town and the gates open for them, then you take the plaza.

Nah, I don't do that stuff often. I did raid and pillage all of Ioudaia and Phoinike a while ago though, but that was just to make sure the AS and Ptolemaioi would be weakened.

Maion

My whole style of play is more based around this. I tend to raise armies in crisis and send them all over the place. My armies are usually a stack or less aswell, meaning if they get shafted in a few battles it ends up looking pretty grim. Although saying that i've got to take on a huuuge baktrian empire now, so i might need some standing armies.

what faction are you using?

I have been using such "expeditionary forces" as raiding parties in my Romani campaign with great success. The world has basically been reduced to me against the Yellow Death (with the Baktrians doing their thing undisturbed in the far East), so I have decided to embark on a rather vicious scorched earth policy against Ptolemaic settlements around the length of the eastern Mediterranean -- from Side to Paraitonion. To do this more easily, I first established bases in Cypus and Augila, and will soon establish a better-protected settlement in Kyrene. I am blockading all Ptolemaic ports in the eastern Med and have burned four major settlements (Side, Tarsos, Sidon and Paraitonion) to the ground. In the battle for Augila, I have also effectively wiped out three full armies of the Pharaoh. I don't really need the cash -- remember, this is a Romani campaign -- I just want to put a serious hurt on the Ptolemaics in preparation for a more serious expansion in the near future.

It's an interesting and enjoyable (heh-heh-heh) addition to the game!

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Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk

what faction are you using?

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Playing as the KH so i use alot of navy to ship people about.

I'm using expeditionary forces in my current Pontos game against the Ptolemies. I have a disloyal FM that I'm RPing as having been sentenced to exile. He only gets the units left when the actual commander of his army died (he was a cavalry wing commander, I always put disloyal FMs in a loyal FM's stack), plus mercenaries (I rp the treasury as the combined assets of the members of the "ruling class" ). I'm rampaging my way through Egypt with "Xerxes" (funny coincidence-he's also the conqueror of Athens), while my loyal generals lead defensive forces on the Ioudaia-Nile Delta border to blunt Ptolemaic attacks. Any settlements I take are given to my allies, the Saby'n (after a thorough sacking, though I leave a gov't bldg and any Semitic culture bldgs I find), I roleplay this as feeding the Saba information about the activities of my rogue general, which they act on. I only have 3 standing fullstack armies, 1 in Iran against the AS, 1 in Europe against Makedonia, and 1 on Defense against the Ptolemaioi, with a small (max half) stack "in training" in Anatolia, and a half stack garrison in Khersonesos. I'm hoping to buffer my border with Egypt so that I can obtain a ceasefire with the Ptolemaioi, as I'm not interested in ruling Egypt.

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Originally Posted by Conqueror

You can also try to lure the defenders out by removing some units from your army; if the besieging force looks weak enough, they'll sally out the 1st turn. The disadvantage is that you'll have to fight against the odds and win decisively, following routers when they rush back to their town and the gates open for them, then you take the plaza.

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Hmm not really. All you have to do is wait until they reach the plaza, calm down and they start to attack you once again even if there's only few (one!) men in the unit left....

and then it's enough to put missile unit close to the gates and shoot them out, they don't even touch the gates and the town is yours...
when sieging stone walls you have to wait until they leave the city again of course unless you want to be shot down by towers and fried by oil...

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Originally Posted by MerlinusCDXX

I'm rampaging my way through Egypt with "Xerxes" (funny coincidence-he's also the conqueror of Athens)

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:laugh4:

Is having disloyal general's that bad? I've never actually had a family member bribed, although captains and sometimes cities do sell themselves out to the Enemy. My best family member is selfish, disloyal (he has the "seditious" trait) and his avatar/face is fat (his avatar looking obese was actually the primary reason I did not send him to fight; I usually send all of my FMs who are Sharp/Charismatic/Optimistic off to war where they can get the most influence/management/command). He has 10 influence and management like most of my family members who had been around for more than 10 years but he is an unrivaled commander - he has 8 command stars. I'd sure hate to see him defect!

As for the expeditionary forces, I have sent out three against the Ptolemies, two against Iberia/Lusitania, one against Kart-Hadastim, one into Crimean Peninsula as well as one into Baltic (I don't know what I was thinking). The Baltic expeditionary force ended up conquering Ascaucalis, Gintaras-Ostan, Seliun-Pilis, Cordon-Neuriji, as well as Gawjam-Bastarnoz (in that order). All of these territories were cut off from my main empire as the closest cities I control are Patavium, Vindobona, Ak-Ink, and Samriszegethusa. The Baltic part of the empire is still cut off, mostly due to the fact that I am not willing to take on the huge stacks of silver chevron units of Eleutheroi buffer states put there to prevent the Sweboz/Romani from expanding too quickly (they sure are doing their job; I don't have the guts to assault them and the Sweboz, who are quite large in my game and have the 2nd largest army of all the factions [I'm the first], keep sending their armies to their deaths)

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originally posted by Aemilius Paulus
Is having disloyal general's that bad?

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Not usually, but I have occasionally had generals bribed, usually by the Ptolemies, and usually after 220 BC (when even the gimped AI can build something resembling an economy, but only with a "naturally rich" faction like the Ptolemies). I've only seen it on difficulty levels above medium, so only worry about it if you play H or VH like most people that post here.
When the Ptolemies start spamming diplomats, that's usually a good indication that they are looking to spend some excess cash, and they seem to favor bribery attempts.

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Originally Posted by MerlinusCDXX

When the Ptolemies start spamming diplomats, that's usually a good indication that they are looking to spend some excess cash, and they seem to favor bribery attempts.

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I had a problem with this in one game, and had to keep a standing army of assassins to keep them at bay. Reminded me of the problems I always used to get with Lawyers (or was it Bureaucrats) in Civ Call to Power, except they were invisible.

lmao, Oh the days of antiquity when if you didn't like a politician, it was socially acceptable to send a band of hitmen after him in the countryside.


it seems that Ptolemy wasn't interested in attacking me, that army outside sardis attacked halacarnessis or something, and the ones in Syria were just there to fight selucids with me. im sure now they accept my presence and holdings in the East. for now. the selucids are fighting persia, Hai, Baktria, me, ptolemy and the Saka. I think they are soon the crumble, but who will profit it is not 100% clear yet. Rome is expanding and has the North part of Epiros, Makedon is reduced to Lesbos and Makedonia, and carthage and rome are good friends still and Rome is allied with me for now. I am not sure if I should expand East or West. throw my lot in with Ptolemy in the Syrian War and see if i can take Alexander's kingdom? or leave the east to Aigypt, unite Greece and take on Carthage, Rome and Gauls?

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Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk

lmao, Oh the days of antiquity when if you didn't like a politician, it was socially acceptable to send a band of hitmen after him in the countryside.


it seems that Ptolemy wasn't interested in attacking me, that army outside sardis attacked halacarnessis or something, and the ones in Syria were just there to fight selucids with me. im sure now they accept my presence and holdings in the East. for now. the selucids are fighting persia, Hai, Baktria, me, ptolemy and the Saka. I think they are soon the crumble, but who will profit it is not 100% clear yet. Rome is expanding and has the North part of Epiros, Makedon is reduced to Lesbos and Makedonia, and carthage and rome are good friends still and Rome is allied with me for now. I am not sure if I should expand East or West. throw my lot in with Ptolemy in the Syrian War and see if i can take Alexander's kingdom? or leave the east to Aigypt, unite Greece and take on Carthage, Rome and Gauls?

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May I inquire what faction you are playing? Is it KH as I can infer from your signature and the thread?

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Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk

lmao, Oh the days of antiquity when if you didn't like a politician, it was socially acceptable to send a band of hitmen after him in the countryside.


it seems that Ptolemy wasn't interested in attacking me, that army outside sardis attacked halacarnessis or something, and the ones in Syria were just there to fight selucids with me. im sure now they accept my presence and holdings in the East. for now. the selucids are fighting persia, Hai, Baktria, me, ptolemy and the Saka. I think they are soon the crumble, but who will profit it is not 100% clear yet. Rome is expanding and has the North part of Epiros, Makedon is reduced to Lesbos and Makedonia, and carthage and rome are good friends still and Rome is allied with me for now. I am not sure if I should expand East or West. throw my lot in with Ptolemy in the Syrian War and see if i can take Alexander's kingdom? or leave the east to Aigypt, unite Greece and take on Carthage, Rome and Gauls?

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If you're playing KH, I'd leave the Ptolies to the East and go unite Hellas and the Balkans, remove the Getai barbaroi, and liberate the northern colonies on the Black Sea. For your next trick, reuniting the Italiote colonies of Megas Hellas and Syrakousai.

yes im KH, i sent an army into Gaul to stir up some action. My plan was since Rome is allied with Averni, and Carthage is allied with Adeui. Im starting a war with the Adeui and as they are already at war with Averni, Rome should go to war with them breaking the alliance between Carthage and Rome! Im holding on to Antioch and I bought Cyprus from Ptolemy. I think im going to continue this strategy of taking settlements on the coasts close enough to get trade. its working so far, and all i have to do is keep to settlements with stone walls and ill be able to hold them with small garrissons of Archers slingers peltasts and Spartan Hoplites. My hope is that Rome will hold its Alliance with me long enough that she expands into Spain and Gaul. The eastern Med holds many opportunities for trade :chinese: