Redux: Battle & Tactics

As the title suggests, this thread is all about battles & tactics in Redux – whatever the aspect. Personally, I feel this can be the most interesting thread of them all - provided enough activity and posts of course – at least for me, as I find this stuff especially interesting…


While posting here, please consider:

• Try to strictly focus on tactics here and stay away from strategy-stuff in this thread. Strategy is covered elsewhere - for a reason. To distinguish the two, lets roughly say that Strategy is everything that happens and can be found somehow on the strat-map in Redux. Tactics is typically everything that concerns and what happens or can happen on the battle-map. Its different things and should be kept apart, for the sake of clarity.
• Try to provide basis and grounds to support your claims, whenever possible. If no substantial basis is provided to support whatever claims you make here, take at least the time to point that out for all (before somebody does it for you, right?). If it really is just your own opinions/impressions you’re posting here somehow, be very clear that it is just that and little else. Everybody wins that way. These practices ensures that most information here can be easily used, processed and measured by all players/visitors, regardless their needs and motives for searching information here. At the same time, standing general problems like confusion, flawed-, skewed- and doubtful information is actively fought and hopefully kept to a minimum by these practices. Obviously, that is desirable for us all.
• Try to stay on topic somehow at all times, if nothing else, as a simple courtesy to all readers of this thread. Personal chit-chat and off-topic-blabla that all too often litters threads here at the Org in general are usually very annoying to plow through while searching for actual information. Keep in mind that information is usually our primary currency here - the reason why most people come and visit here in the first place.
• Have fun!

- A

:skull:
On expert the AI gets +4 to morale in battle and its combat effectiveness is increased by 30%.
(30%being around 75%of the increase you get from 1 valour upgrade. (Source Frogbeastegg guide to METW)
On expert, I've noticed quality 100 man spear units become almost invincible no matter which mod you play. I remember playing BKB as the crusaders. On one part of the battlefield, I was fighting a single byzantine skutatoi unit (100 man high quality spears). I followed accepted wisdom (swords beats spears doesn't it??) and attacked with two 60 man chivalric men at arms units. I think I forgot to extend my cma's lines so they were 4 men deep, but my two units still overlapped the skutatoi. My 2 units routed after killing about 25 of their 100 men. The 75 skutatoi marched on, so I charged better swords at them (40 templar footknights. The skutatoi beat my 40 templars too. By then the skutatoi were down to 25 men and went off to attack my general.

Any way before you flame me, I haven't forgotten this is Redux!!
I'm playing Redux expert Spanish now and 60 regular foot with swords can't beat 100 Moorish spear (all things being equal valour etc) (those Moorish dudes are disciplined as well). It doesn't seem to matter if the spear are moving also (I believe then they lose their ranks bonus)
This is a problem when you can't outnumber the Moors. Regular foot are probably your best swords infantry for quite a long time; problem is the Moors attack with huge stacks of 100 spearmen outnumbering you!!
In my last battle I tried to outnumber the Moors on their flank at least. I charged in 2 units of regulars in wedge into the one 100 man Moorish spear, but we still lost. Even when outnumbered they can fight for ages; that +4 plus disciplined keeps em going long enough for help to arrive eg Black Guard! Moorish bodyguards!!
I find missiles in combination don't help much either.
Perhaps I should use the Longbow!:wall:

I know, these moslim sword and spear are normally superior to others. Very hard to beat.
I always try to let them attack me and fight defensive battle against them (the roman tactic). Make sure I wear them out before they get to me. I use two or three good long range archer units and target their general (or elite units). If you kill the general they will break sooner or later. Once my archers are done I move in more sword units.
Outflank them and attack in their back with cavalry after all their infantry is involved in melee.

It's hard to beat these dudes.
Several times I have given up the battle and retreated (in orderly conduct :laugh4:). Then attacked again in other turn, slowly wearing them out.

This is actually what I enjoy in games: the challenge to find a way to win. You have about 500 years to do that with Redux.

Maybe Axalon should give out prizes :balloon2:. Like a date with one of the princesses after beating the Moors or Saracens :laugh4:.

Hi guys and welcome to this part of the castle.... :grin:

Obliqueattack: No worries I am not going to fry you, but I am going to ignore all stuff that isn’t redux because it simply is not relevant here (the circumstances for battle in those versions are too different from redux. It is not a mere chance that I set up this thread you know). No sir, no frying today. Instead I commend you for starting off this thread! :mickey:


“I'm playing Redux expert Spanish now and 60 regular foot with swords can't beat 100 Moorish spear (all things being equal valour etc) (those Moorish dudes are disciplined as well). It doesn't seem to matter if the spear are moving also (I believe then they lose their ranks bonus)”

Now, your presented problem strike me as fairly obvious, you can’t use a single Regular Infantry unit and hope to beat a Moorish Infantry unit as long as valour and all that are the same. Your story here shows that with all clarity. So you’ll have to either upgrade them or do something else. As simple as that. It is a question of available troops, allocating resources and cost if you ask me. What you are describing is a classic example of allocating wrong tactical resources for the wrong places (granted that you don’t always have even that luxury). It seems quite obvious to me at least. Thus I would do something else and I suggest that you to do the same.


“This is a problem when you can't outnumber the Moors. Regular foot are probably your best swords infantry for quite a long time; problem is the Moors attack with huge stacks of 100 spearmen outnumbering you!!”

Well you can’t expect to outnumber the Moors as Spain that would simply being hoping for too much. Expect the opposite and adjust your strategy and tactics accordingly. Hence you need to make other plans and use other types of troops. It’s that simple really.


“In my last battle I tried to outnumber the Moors on their flank at least. I charged in 2 units of regulars in wedge into the one 100 man Moorish spear, but we still lost. Even when outnumbered they can fight for ages; that +4 plus disciplined keeps em going long enough for help to arrive eg Black Guard! Moorish bodyguards!!”

Concentrating on a flank is a good tactic but it will only work for a limited time. Once your time is up, you will have to move your troops out of there or drown in enemies. All this under the assumption that the enemy have numerical superiority and it is real soldiers you are fighting. When facing fighting against the odds you simply cannot afford to face the enemy head on because you’ll probably just get destroyed that way. As the above battle example shows, mobility is key and you should strive to never allow the enemy to use its full force against you. If you allow that to happen you fight on the enemys terms and that usually is a bad idea when you are outnumbered. Essentially you are forced by necessity to force the enemy to fight on “your terms” or at least more favourable term for you.


“I find missiles in combination don't help much either.”

I actually find that very hard to believe, my guess is that; if you feel that way you simply don’t use the archers in the right way or simply have not enough of them. I dare to say that reduxes projectile system is the most leathal to date! All other versions isn’t even close! So something is definitely wrong with this picture. Have you tried concentrated fire? The moors do have shields, granted, but they are not immune to arrows! Perhaps you should try crossbows? At any rate, archers is probably one of Spains more obvious weaknesses thus you should consider to hire mercenary archers because they are quite good actually.


“Perhaps I should use the Longbow!”

Well, apart from everybody else I actually leave that choice to you...


In an overall sense I think that if you find Spain too hard to play you should play another faction instead. There is no prestige here, prestige is silly, play on the level that suits you and be happy about that instead! Spain is difficult faction to play in a universal sense. Spain set on “Expert”-level is simply not for everyone and it is not intended to be either. Besides this is not the original! This is redux! You cannot expect to have the same impressive results as in the original because redux is a lot more unforgiving and demanding even if you don’t play Spain!

Personally I wait for my royal infantry (and spearmen), in the mean time I use knights. With these you can fight superior forces and especially if they are upgraded and have lots of moral bonuses (churches and stuff like that). High valour is very helpful also and a favourite of mine. But in the end of the day you must be a decent commander as well otherwise it will be hard.

At any rate, if you can’t handle the Moorish onslaught play some other faction instead! Nobody will think any less of you for doing that, it – is – ok – you – know... :bow:


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William: Overall I think that your suggestions are both good, viable and interesting. One thing that especially caught my interest is the fact that you, quite correctly, pointed out here is that one don’t have to win every battle! Something that might not be an obvious choice for many perhaps, still it might be just the thing to do! Sometimes you might fight just to destroy as much as possible for the enemy. Just to wear them down a bit or perhaps there is some target units that needs to be cleared out in battle before the big attack! However this is something that strike me as only advisable while you got buffer zones to work with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by William the Silent

Maybe Axalon should give out prizes :balloon2:. Like a date with one of the princesses after beating the Moors or Saracens :laugh4:.

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I’ll ask the girls if they are up for it.... :thumbsup:

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Any other comments here? Perhaps a “counter-reply” from you Obliqueattack?!?


- Cheers

:yes:To William:
Sorry so brief, but the same as Axalon said really. -Excellent suggestions that I haven’t tried before.

:yes:To Axalon:
“What you are describing is a classic example of allocating wrong tactical resources for the wrong places…….. So you’ll have to either upgrade them or do something else”

Point taken: I’ve often gone into battle without paying attention to enemy valor; a sometimes fatal mistake as I’ve finally realized!! Weapon, morale and armor bonuses need careful consideration too.

“Well you can’t expect to outnumber the Moors as Spain that would simply being hoping for too much.”
I don’t mean overall troop numbers per faction- I mean in a single battle.
Until 100 man Royal Spear and Royal foot can be produced, the only good troops the Spanish have are in blocks of 40 or 60 which find it difficult to compete with Moorish blocks of 100. The Moors have lots of these early one, and tend to crush these smaller 40/60 man units.

“Expect the opposite and adjust your strategy and tactics accordingly. Hence you need to make other plans and use other types of troops. It’s that simple really.”

So yes, you are right --change tactics: concentrate on getting Royal spear Royal Infantry into production as soon as possible. Perhaps don’t attack the Moors too early on. Sometimes the Moors send emissaries wanting to break off hostilities – so they can be reasoned with!!
I’ve found the Portugese and Aragonese to be softer targets until better troops can be built.

”mobility is key and you should strive to never allow the enemy to use its full force against you”
Again good advice when attacking, but I’m not sure how I could do this when defending except to run away all over the battlefield.

“I find missiles in combination don't help much either.”
Perhaps it’s just me, but I’ve never been too impressed with missiles in MTW* in general. I can remember winning too many battles where enemies had armies with a lot or even a few missile units. I’ve always found that slugging it out decides most battles along with terrain, morale, valor and death of a general. (*vanilla and other mods; you see its sometimes necessary to talk about other versions; they shape our experience and perceptions and pre-conceived ideas; and so I can’t help bringing that to Redux. That’s also the reason why I spoke about Skutatoi – I felt there was a similarity with Redux Moorish spear).

Axalon, I agree with you if you think more lethal missile units are required. Apart from the longbow what missile upgrades did you make?

Two units of Spanish Feudal archers don’t have much effect on Moorish spear blocks, especially when most of the Moorish army are these dudes. I’ve noticed Moorish armies have few or no missile units and are almost solely 100 man sword and spears throughout – another reason why they are hard to beat imho.
I could use more feudal archers, but I’m certain I’d get overrun. Taking your point again, I could try to upgrade my archers and see how that works out or hire mercenaries. I haven’t tried crossbows, because my feeling is they would be too slow. But I think I’ll try anyway just for fun!

“At any rate, if you can’t handle the Moorish onslaught play some other faction instead!”
I never said that; just looking for some advice on how to defeat these 100 man dudes.
Actually, I don’t mind losing. I still enjoy myself after losing a long epic battle. If I could win every battle, (especially on expert) the game would be no fun or challenge at all. I certainly feel like I’ve been in a battle after fighting the Moors on Redux expert.
And having fun and overcoming tactical challenges is what it’s all about – right?

”In an overall sense I think that if you find Spain too hard to play you should play another faction instead”
I did play English on hard. I didn’t have a single battle with the French. We allied and they even returned a rebellious province to my control! The Moors wiped out the French for me. Then I pushed the Moors back out of France and into Spain with the longbow.

Finally Axalon, while I’m here.
Could you please explain this build embargo thing to me – how and why to use it?
I’ve noticed that master spearmaker does not give its +2 valor bonus to Royal Spear.
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Attrition?

I'm working my way through another game, this time I'm playing the English. In this and the last game I played the units loose some of their strength. Is this an elememt of attrition that you added, or was in the original MTW all along and I Just didn't notice it?

Rick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick

Attrition?

I'm working my way through another game, this time I'm playing the English. In this and the last game I played the units loose some of their strength. Is this an elememt of attrition that you added, or was in the original MTW all along and I Just didn't notice it?

Rick

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You will loose unit strenght in several cases. As far as I know when besieging, if crusade moves through your provence, or when certain disaster happens in your province.

Also units may automaticly merge, but that's a "personal setting" issue and you don't loose strenght.

Hi guys,

William: Thanks for answering Rick. No attrition...

Obliqueattack: Ok, so our little tactical discussion/debate focused on Spain continues much to my delight. :grin:

Quote:

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”I’ve often gone into battle without paying attention to enemy valor; a sometimes fatal mistake as I’ve finally realized!! Weapon, morale and armor bonuses need careful consideration too.”

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Playing Spain set on “Expert” you really don’t have the margins to ignore that. That is generally true for all factions in redux, but it is obvious in that particular case. Redux is far more unforgiving in that sense compared with the original.

Quote:

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”I mean in a single battle.”

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Yes… My answer was directed towards that end. You can’t expect to outnumber the Moors as Spain. Heavy odds are the usual standard here. Attack or defense it does not matter really.

Quote:

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”Spanish have are in blocks of 40 or 60 which find it difficult to compete with Moorish blocks of 100. The Moors have lots of these early one, and tend to crush these smaller 40/60 man units.”

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A fairly adequate description I think and definitely part of the problem for Spain. You simply will have to get used to that or be destroyed. The Moors and Spain got different tech-trees hence different troops and style in their armies. The Moors may appear to be stronger initially but if Spain can survive long enough it will have everything it needs to counter the Moors successfully.

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”…but I’m not sure how I could do this when defending except to run away all over the battlefield.”

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Static defense is not the way to go if you’re outnumbered and short of a castle. Use the terrain, choose you’re killing-ground carefully and be sure to use your cavalry to take out other isolated cavalry and archer-units. If you will encounter some Moorish archers you simply can’t ignore them or you will probably loose. Spanish lancers are excellent units for that end, especially against archers. Also, make sure not to concentrate all the fighting to a single place, thus allowing the enemy to use the full force of its army all at once. See my example above (post:1)…

Quote:

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”Perhaps it’s just me, but I’ve never been too impressed with missiles in MTW* in general."

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No that goes for me too, so I devised an entirely new system for that in redux. No bow or crossbow are the same as in the original (or any other version for that matter). This is one of the more blatant traits of reduxed battle. Everything is more lethal and by comparison with the original, more extreme (personally I prefer “explicit” thou).

Quote:

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“…vanilla and other mods; you see its sometimes necessary to talk about other versions; they shape our experience and perceptions and pre-conceived ideas; and so I can’t help bringing that to Redux.”

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It is a reasonable argument, no doubt. I however think that many people are assuming too much because of such ideas. It is understandable, but hardly advisable when facing a very different battle-system such as the one found in redux. Everything is far more diverse, less standardized and more unforgiving. Because of that fact old MTW tactics don’t work well in redux, there is too many parameters there that simply can’t be ignored in the same way it can be in the original. The original is by comparison quite forgiving where as redux is not.

I would imagine that it is quite possible that some people loose their battles and may believe that there might be some bad balance in the game because of it. When in fact it is a question of poor tactics or rather usage of wrong tactics. I have no idea how many that have been scared off from redux that way but my guess is that it is far more than one. People seem to often assume that everything is designed in accordance with the CA template. Again an understandable notion since most versions seems to comply very well with that template (MTW-XL for instance), redux however does not, the reduxed projectile system for instance is a blatant example of that fact. Thus reduxed battle is very different and far more lethal (that’s why I set up this thread because most other versions combat-systems are based on the CA template and that is hardly similar to or valid for reduxed battle).

Many people seem to be used to blitzing all over Europe in style in the original game, but that will hardly happen in redux because they will be destroyed and loose their battles because they have not prepared their armies for the tasks that await them. There are too many variables and to much diversity in reduxed battles and that forces you to adapt accordingly, it’s either that or you probably get destroyed. Reduxed battle demands a lot more attention from the player and people might not be prepared for that fact and get healthy wake up calls, as in loosing their battles or even worse get wiped out from the map. Several such cases have actually been reported in, so it’s very possible indeed with redux. As for peoples reactions to all that, I don’t have a clue.

Quote:

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”Two units of Spanish Feudal archers don’t have much effect on Moorish spear blocks, especially when most of the Moorish army are these dudes. I’ve noticed Moorish armies have few or no missile units and are almost solely 100 man sword and spears throughout – another reason why they are hard to beat imho.”

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If you doubled that up to 4 units I believe that you would get a drastic difference, especially if you use concentrated fire tactics (all directed towards one single target). Reduxed armies are a lot harder than the peasants that the Moors usually have in the original, no doubts there. As for cavalry and archers they usually have some of those as well making things even harder and diverse opposition to deal with. There is no doubt that Moorish warrior and infantry formations are very frequent in Moorish armies, but if look upon it from “their” perspective it is very understandable. Moorish infantry is one of the best units they got to deal with knights so that’s probably one of the reasons why the AI uses them. As for enemy infantry, same thing applies again for the Moors. Also it is a matter of development and available buildings. They also got the Black guard and those units are good but limited in numbers (thus they are not that popular with the AI).


Ok, I leave the floor open to all others… Obliqueattack?

- Cheers
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In the interest of topicality, building-issues are not part of this dedicated thread and should be discussed elsewhere. This place is all about tactics, battles and battle reports and stuff like that. You will find your answers over at the regular thread instead, Obliqueattack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by William the Silent

You will loose unit strenght in several cases. As far as I know when besieging, if crusade moves through your provence, or when certain disaster happens in your province.

Also units may automaticly merge, but that's a "personal setting" issue and you don't loose strenght.

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I know about siege losses and after battle reconstitution, but I've found that units just sitting around outside the castle/city seem to loose strength. I'll make further notes and report back.

I just wanted to say that this thread is yet again open for business! As of this post we focus on new Redux (3rd ED) from this point onwards. While I am here, I might as well drop some various tips and thoughts on archer-units…



Archer-units: tips & thoughts
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• Archers have different ranges in Redux. I think it is 4 ranges. The higher tier of archers the longer range they usually have. Royal archers are the most accurate of the bunch while longbowmen have the longest range – no contest.
  
  
• As arrows are far more deadly in Redux then in raw MTW – firing into a battlezone will cost you far more troops due to “friendly fire” then in MTW – so don’t do that if not especially desperate.
  
  
• Moving troops just in front of, or thru, an archer-unit while it is firing will get you casualties due to “friendly fire” – so don’t do that if you can help it. It is practically begging for casualties in Redux…
  
  
• If out-ranged… Seek cover in wooded terrain, move out of range or rush you archers into range with a thin loose line to pick up the “ranged fight” with the enemy. Regardless, whatever you decide to do – do it fast! Otherwise, be prepared to do some counting casualties…
  
  
• To be extra lethal with arrows – use “concentrated fire” tactics – as in have several units’ fire at the same target at the same time. This is very effective against almost anything…
  
  
• If facing champions, berserkers, cataphracts and the like – use arrows and fast! Before they come into contact with your forces! Otherwise your poor infantry will suffer heavy casualties and you will do the counting… Whenever you see such units appear in battle try to take them out with arrows (that is still the best and safest way)…
  
  
• Archers are usually worthless against cavalry – try to protect them whenever possible with spear/pike-formations just to “shield them” from cavalry – if you don’t they will probably die if cavalry catches them.
  
  
• Pay attention to the size of enemy-archer-formations in the field. If greater in numbers then yours - you will probably lose in a “ranged duel” 1 on 1 (so try to take ‘em out by other means, never leave them be…). Smaller archer-formations (like Norse Pathfinders, Slavic foresters etc.) should not engage in “ranged duels” as they will probably get destroyed or routed by doing it – besides they too good to be wasted like that! Smaller archer-formations should work together and use “concentrated fire” tactics to be more effective or just do some suppressing fire on large formations in a battlezone….
  
  
• If you have 3-4 or more archer formations, and the opportunity, experiment with “coordinated fire” hitting the selected enemy-unit with orderly and sequential waves of fire - keeping it under constant fire-suppression – it can be very effective and devastating.
  
  
• If provided with the luxury, try to select especially vulnerable targets if possible for maximum effect per salvo. Targets with no shield are usually a good choice (or with little or no armour). Pike-formations and other “unshielded” units usually fare very poorly against arrows.
  
  
• Pay attention to fire rates in Redux as it can eventually be very important. Slavic bowmen, Feudal-, Byzantine-, Steppe- and Mercenary archers have all a faster fire rate then others and that will eventually show in prolonged “ranged duels”. This is also the case with Armenian infantry or any regular Muslim archer-unit. Royal archers, Norse Pathfinders and Slavic foresters have a slower fire-rate (while being more accurate and lethal). Longbowmen are also slower but have “extreme” range (and they have AP-arrows).
  
  
• Archer-units in Redux are more expensive to train then crossbow-units but they are usually more flexible in battle – as the conditions for active and successful use are easier to achieve in battle due to a higher fire-rate.

Ok, that’s some tips on archer-units in Redux for you guys. Discuss this or general topic at your discretion….

- Cheers

Archer Range
Long range is really long range! I was fighting a defensive battle against the English. Unfortunately the map was the side of a large hill and I was at the bottom. From the crest, their English Foresters could hit my front line, half the battlefield away! Luckily the AI only tried this late on, once the battle was as good as lost for him.

Out-ranged?
Hazard a cavalry unit - preferably not in a frontal charge but at an angle. They probably won't engage the archers (not before the AI moves in some support), but they should make them pause firing and retreat. This may buy you a few vital seconds.

Enemy Heavy Units
I believe I am correct in saying that crossbows/quarrels are more potent against armour than bows/arrows. I'm sure it's especially true for Heavy Crossbowmen which can stop anything.

Protecting Archers
Lower level Spearmen are only useful against cavalry, so take no more than you need to counter enemy mounted units; you will be better served by normal infantry. Higher level units, Royal or Order, can cope with almost anything.


I managed a memorable victory over the Moors with the pairing of Archers and Crossbowmen. Expecting only token resistance, I moved a small force into Mauritania: 2 x Archers, 2 x Crossbowmen, 2 x cavalry of some sort, 2 x armoured spearmen. To my surprise the enemy swapped his armies between Mauritania and North Africa, and I was facing the royal entourage: the Caliph and his sons with Muslim Bodyguards, some Muslim Heavy Cavalry and a couple of assorted infantry units. In numbers, they were roughly equal to my own. As is typical for the AI, they postured for a while and then retreated to a corner. The trek to close with them left my armoured units very tired, but at last they were within range up a slight slope. I arranged my men in the usual formation: crossbowmen in front of archers in front of spearmen, and the cavalry on either side. With the ranged units set to auto-fire, I tiptoed the whole lot forward until the archers began to loose their arrows. This stirred the Moors into life, but they really just moved units left or right a bit all the while suffering attrition. Eventually they began to send their units against me, but these frontal assaults were cut down mercilessly by the crossbowmen. Finally they started to break and flee. The end result was 284 killed for no loss on my part.

Appreciate the post Plato…

Sounds like the AI screwed up royally – and paid the price for it… You maximized the capacities you had available while the AI squandered his. It’s really a shame that the battle-AI is hardcoded. Had the Moors done a full frontal attack with everything (in a broad line) you could have very well lost that battle as it seemingly had better troops for close combat the you did. You correctly exploited the fact that the AI had no ranged troops. Had it there just been 1 archer-unit in the Moorish army - things could have been very different (you would at least have had casualties then).

...So folks, there you have it. Do not ignore ranged troops in your armies! Always make room for some ranged units in every army - if you want it to be able to counter such and other problems. I find it highly unlikely that you will be sorry for it.

- Cheers

Anyhow, as it already has come up - I think some tips and thoughts on crossbow-units could be interesting here as well, so I’ll do some of that now….


Crossbow-units: tips & thoughts
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• Crossbowmen have much slower fire rate then archers (roughly 50%) but they are much more deadly if allowed to fire. Not much will survive it, including Byzantine cataphracts…
  
  
• Crossbowmen have shorter range then most archer formations, thus a “ranged duel” with archers is not an optimal scenario for crossbowmen. Besides, archers usually have fire rate of 200% or more by comparison…. That will be a factor too.
  
  
• Crossbowmen are more defence-oriented troops then archers as their fire rate are slower and their range shorter – making it harder to successfully create viable circumstances to use them in offensive operations.
  
  
• Crossbowmen are cheap (and easy to get), while archers are (usually) not…
  
  
• Quarrels are much better at killing heavily armoured units then arrows….
  
  
• Do not use crossbow-formations for suppressive fire in a battlezone – because that will probably create plenty of casualties due to “friendly fire”….
  
  
• Do not move troops directly in front of crossbow-formations while they are firing – that is practically begging for casualties in Redux…
  
  
• Once crossbowmen are placed in a good position switch off the skirmish-mode so they won’t run around like idiots as soon any enemy is close. It is much better that they move when given the order to do so then “improvising” it on their own…. This is especially true for Pavise units….
  
  
• If deploying crossbowmen in battle, always be very careful with the “fire at will”-mode. It is safer to instantly switch that off just to save yourself future possible casualties due to “improvised” fire-directions – which is otherwise bound to happen. After all, quarrels are far too deadly to disregard like that…
  
  
• As with archers, crossbowmen need protection and support to survive. If cavalry (or regular infantry) catches them they will probably die… Heavy and mercenary crossbow-units are tougher then the rest, but they too will die if catched by serious enemy troops….
  
  
• Heavy-, mercenary- and Italian crossbowmen have slightly faster fire rate (and better accuracy) then other crossbow-formations due to more extensive training (and reflecting better equipment).
  
  
• Pavise-units have little use beyond defensive-operations as they are usually too slow for anything else. Once in position however (preferably with support), they will withstand enemy fire better then any other ranged unit in the game. Remember, pavise-units are worthless in combat and poor escapers - if not protected they will die…

Alright, that is some tips on crossbow-units in Redux for you guys. Discuss this or general topic at your discretion….

- Cheers

Alright, some stuff on armour piercing units of Redux here...


Armour piercing units
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All such troops are useful against heavily armoured enemies somehow - basically 5+ in raw armour-value (the standard value for armour without any upgrades). All armour only have half value against all such units - which means that a attack/melee stat of 4 can break thru any armour of 7 or below and deal damage. Most knights have a raw armour-value of 6. Regular infantry has a raw armour-value of 3. Byzantine Cataphracts has a raw armour-value 9 etc. etc. This means that upgrades on armour piercing units are especially powerful. Some (heavy) halbardiers for instance will with just a level 1 upgrade on weapons be able to become seriously dangerous against virtually any infantry in the Redux and not just cavalry. Same thing applies also to (Light Halbardiers and) Heavy Pikemen with a level 2 upgrade etc. etc. Below is a list of all AP-units in Redux (RXB1003)...


AP-Units/attack stat/faction*
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• Heathen Berserkers 8 (Lithuania)
• Merc. Eliteguard 6
• Claymore Infantry 5
• Woodsmen 2
• Peasant Militia 0
• Regular Militia 2
• Heavy Militia 2
• Light Halbardiers 2
• Halbardiers 3
• Heavy Pikemen 2 (HRE, Italy, Lombardy and Papacy)
• Greatsword Guard 6 (HRE)
• Spanish Champion 10 (Spain & Aragon)
• Royal Guard 3 (England, France, Burgundy and Portugal)
• Palace Guard 3 (Russia & Hungary)
• Byzantine Palaceguard 3 (Byzantines)
• Feudal Champions 10
• Champion 12
• Norse Infantry 5 (Norse)
• Norse Boduguards 8 (Norse)
• Norse Berserkers 15 (Norse)
• Norse Champion 15 (Norse)
• Norse Mercenaries 5 (Norse, Byzantines)
• Norse Horsemen 5 (Norse)
• Black Guard 5 (Moors)
• Nubian Slayer 12 (Moors & Saracens)

* Faction that has access to special or limited units.


Weapon Upgrades: (Redux)
----------------------------------
Level I   +1 Attack
Level II  +2 Attack
Level III +3 Attack


Overall, weapon upgrades are always good on any unit but the actual effect on AP-units is basically unmatched in comparison to any other troops in Redux. That might be worthwile to keep in mind as you play the game. Other then that, a little reminder that this thread is still open for business - and - it is still my personal fave-thread around here (more or less)...

- A

Hi Axalon,

.....just realized to recruit too few Berserkers ;-)) They will be even better, though less in numbers, than Bodyguards to slaughter whole armys - with armourIII-upgrade, of course.....

greetings, daigaku

Hi to all REDUX players,

being a rather defensive player I just want to write down what worked for me, as well in Vanilla as in REDUX. Enjoy!

For all Factions:

- The very first is economy. Comes before big army, comes before variety of units. No money, no units - that simple.

- Don´t go for numbers. Go for quality. Every building increasing valour/morale/weapon-stats/armour-stats is vital. Costs a fortune to get them all - but is worth every Florin.

- Retrain, even the cheapest units. Every upgrade makes even woodsmen usable in battle!

- Blitzing works in Vanilla. It doesn´t really work in REDUX. Build your empire slow but steady. Sometimes it´s enough to conquer one or two provinces in a king´s life to keep up influence.

- Naval superiority. I had situations with an oncoming armada of about 150 Byz ships - be prepared to wipe out every ship of every possible opponent - and keep your trade going. Use islands giving no income for ship production!!

- Use outstanding units for outstanding jobs. In the discussion with Axalon I gave some examples ;-))

- Don´t use units just to fill up the stack. Always the best is only good enough, especially against highly trained heavy Infantry or Knights.

For my beloved Norse:

- Use all strong units, but have always at least 3 units of Norse Bodyguards/Berserkers and Norse Pathfinders in your army. With heavy odds, they will "make your day" ;-))

- You will love forests. An axe in the forest against spears and Cav does wonders - the thicker the forest the better.

- After the Pathfinders shot their arrows, they are great melee fighters for any flanking action with morale which never lets them run. Give them Armour and Weapon upgrades!

- Norse Spearmen have better defence (and morale) than most other. If needed use them in melee - they will stand their ground!

That, for the moment, sums it up. I wish everybody good battles ;-))

greetings, daigaku

Hi @Axalon,

...just had this increadible experience to extinguish the Norse - with longbowmen...

I would not have dared to enter this province of theirs due to a 8star bodyguard general, all his men in level3 armour - but it was the most developed region, and so their new young king, a mere 2star, turned up there. I entered with mainly bows (a risk, for they had some cavalry, but how wisely does a 2star lead his men?) They let themselves be lured out of the forest they took as cover by a unit of my swift Irish Horsemen I put before their noses - right into the concentrated fire of 7 not-even-covered Longbow-units. Were shot to pieces because they decided not to send their cavalry to disturb my bowmen and so were simply too slow to cover the distance to my bows...none of them rooted, but their last man, the King, got shot down just before reaching my bows.
This, for me, is a lesson learned for using my beloved Norse. NEVER EVER get out of any stripe of wood you find against any decent projectiles!!! As you know from former descriptions, I always used this tactics, but here I saw how horrible such a "simple" mistake can be...

Happily fighting along greetings,
daigaku

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daigaku

- The very first is economy. Comes before big army, comes before variety of units. No money, no units - that simple.

- Blitzing works in Vanilla. It doesn´t really work in REDUX. Build your empire slow but steady. Sometimes it´s enough to conquer one or two provinces in a king´s life to keep up influence.

- Use islands giving no income for ship production!!

---

That is good advice...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daigaku

This, for me, is a lesson learned for using my beloved Norse. NEVER EVER get out of any stripe of wood you find against any decent projectiles!!! As you know from former descriptions, I always used this tactics, but here I saw how horrible such a "simple" mistake can be...

---

Umm… “I told you so”, now you seen it first hand what arrows and quarrels can do to Norse infantry. Obviously, the AI will never have the capacity to exploit certain circumstances as well as the player can, and usually will – as your tale here illustrates. I can’t help but to feel for the young, brave Viking-king how he died at the feet of cowardly English longbowmen - pierced by many arrows. Had it been me, I would have used that cavalry to destroy your archers, or die trying, as that would probably determine the outcome of the whole battle. The AI, of course, doesn’t have the capacity to see the importance of that detail. Anyway, now you have seen it for yourself – it is not a matter of faction but of troops, circumstances and tactics – that regardless of any faction. As it should be…

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daigaku

...just had this increadible experience to extinguish the Norse - with longbowmen...

---

Longbowmen is an extreme unit, so powerful that nothing can seriously match it in ranged combat, especially so under player management. And it has been debated many times if they should be allowed to be as powerful as they are in Redux. I have always defended them and their extreme traits - but as I always say – use them with care and caution as they are potentially game-wrecking, that’s how powerful they are (with their extreme range). It is hardly by accident that England is the only regular faction to be listed as “fairly easy”, due to their longbows. Or that it takes 3 years to develop 1 unit and cost plenty in the process. Use them responsibly, too many of these can ruin your game. Just saying… To me, they are much more interesting in the hands of the AI then any player.

- A

Hi @Axalon,

Quote:

---

Had it been me, I would have used that cavalry to destroy your archers

---

I would have done exactly the same, especially in the situation them not being covered by my SaxonHeavySpears (they stood quite some way back). And with this 8star Bodyguard General, that might have happened. But this way, with an unexperienced young King, I saw the chance to rid me of the single danger really remaining in the north. Bribing the remainders after the death of the king was only the cream on the cake ;-))

Quote:

---

To me, they are much more interesting in the hands of the AI then any player

---

I will meet them playing the Russians. Being sure there as well it will take immense time and money to find out/build the necessary stuff, I will land on the British Islands rather late(first comes Scandinavia). So the AI has time to build up her structures and maybe surprise me somehow ;-))

Wish you a fine weekend,
daigaku

Hi,

...another lesson learned: never leave too many regions to the rebels. Not for the nuisance they are, but for respawns....
Had extinguished the Moors, and just about to build up Iberia. All Northern Africa, from Morocco to Tripoli/Syria, was Rebel Land, with quite a few men scattered around(altogether about 7000). The Moment I had secured Iberia for good - a respawn of the Moors turned up, thousands and thousands of them, the rebels joining them as well, getting all this land, and partially with still intact and well developed infrastructure. I´ll have hell to keep them out of Europe.........

headshaking greetings,

daigaku

Hi @all,

...ever had problems with those Cataphract Regiments?

Got them quite easily - forced them to face a unit of souped-up SaxonHeavySpears head on (4 rows deep, to spread enough not to get flanked by them), and got into the flank with a unit of Claymores with every bonus possible on Castle-level. So it was 100:100 men - and they got slaughtered! After fleeing (and getting chased with IrishHorsemen) before leaving the map there were left 12 men of them. I lost 17 Spears and 9 Claymores....THAT was a nice experience, especially because the Byz were friends of mine from the very beginning of the game and betrayed me. I had a General with only 2stars, theirs had 5. And my lad didn´t even get a star !! for this battle, loosing (with something like me 840 men, them 1280) only 157, the Byz having 758 casualties. My wife heard me shouting about that three rooms away ;-))

greetings, daigaku

Hi @all,

okay, here we go, my first experience with the Russians in Redux, played with the new VI1004e on casual.

[Personal opinions of the] Units:

Slavic foresters: not as good as their Norse or English brethren, need definitely armour upgrade. Otherwise, the usual benefits from those "hidden" units.
Slavic Bowmen: an absolute must. Long range, good morale and decent mele fighters. Combine with Palace Guard or Irish Spears.
Russian Inf: forget them. Use SlavWarriors and SlavInf instead (okay, you need two units to get the same amount of men, but they are far better).
PalaceGuard: an absolute must. best heavy spears for the Russians. Keeping flanks secured, or break enemy lines, they do it.
SlavCav: Good alround Cav, absolute deadly when combined with
SlavHorseArchers: THE all-you-can-get unit of the russians, the only fault is lacking some morale (need buildings!). Bow and Sword, first demoralizing with volleys of arrows, then charging in with swords, combined with a CavSpear unit like SlavCav or, even better, IrishHorse. GREAT!! <<Aftermath>>: Sorry, made a mistake here. After checking with GnomeEditor realized they have the same morale level(5) as LithCav and SlavCav, means "good morale". Doesn´t show in info pics, though.
RussianLancers: 80men, devastating charge, fast moving, but again lacking morale. I prefer the Irish...
Boyars: Souped-up SlavHorseArchers, but only 20men. If you want a challenge being outnumbered, those are the guys to go with. They break Knights, spears, inf, what you want. Well armoured as well, so not too big a problem with archers (except those AP-archers, of course).
Russian Knights: The usual knight material. In my opinion, knights are overestimated(?), so I don´t go for them too much.


Regions and building up:

Very, VERY first, get Khazar. And get it quick, before the Byz steal it and get a foot into the steppes. If they do, sooner or later they destroy you. In my actual campaign I took it 719 by bribes.
Keep friends with the Lithuanians for at least 100 years. They´ll keep busy the Polish, the Hungarians and/or the HRE whilst you build up.
Don´t bother with sea trade in the beginning. Build farms, farms and farms again.
Second region, take Novgorod. Again I bribed and got some decent Norse with the deal, without destroying buildings (bribed garrison in keep and army the same turn).
Third region, take Suzdal, being central for Novgorod, Smolensk, Chernigov and Khazar. Build EVERYTHING POSSIBLE there, for means of "reachability".
Get a spy into Couronia (3 tradable goods, all Lithuanian units) for destabilisation and take it when securely in rebel hands (be sure to throw in MASSES, for the Liths will go for it in the same turn).
To keep up influence, the usual stuff: If necessary marry your sister, or use Finland as a retaken-from-rebels region (I don´t like to expand too much too early, prefer to build up and wait).
The moment Suzdal is built up, start spamming out fleets at least to the English Channel for trade. Take Ireland, for the Horse and Spears. Russians have no decent fast moving Cav or Spears.
Meanwhile, the war between Byz and Saracenes left one of them weak, so no trouble to get Berezan and Crimea. Spam fleet from there till Sicily at least.
Around 830, every region should be built up to Castle level, with every necessary Master/Armour and Morale building for troop production, and every farm/merchant giving an income.
Around 870, at least one of the mediterranean islands should be used for ship production, closing the circle to the baltics.
From here, the world is yours. Expand as you like.

That´s it, about; meanwhile it´s 1022, I have taken all the Lithuanian provinces (died without heir), Scandinavia from the Norse (hard piece of work, that!!), have taken Northumbria (iron!) for those Saxon units and as a foothold to take the British Island. Still haven´t entered the Deserts, and don´t want to, Khazar being a great stronghold against the Saracenes. Byz (allied, and keeping them alive, don´t want them coming back with thousands of Cataphracts) a mere shadow, the Big Boys are HRE (allied), Moors and Italians (and my Russians, of course). I´ll report more at end of campaign.

greetings, daigaku

p.s. @Cyprian2 : See, that´s a typical daigaku sum-up. You understand why I love your AAR?!?

Dai...

While I totally welcome your posts and remarks in this thread, you have had a tendency here to confuse/mixup strategy with tactics, making the topic here wander off into the realms of pure strategy - more then once. As to re-establish general topicality and clarity in this thread - I have decided to manually "grey out" those arguably off-topic remarks in some of your posts, to make it easy for the average reader to distinguish what is actually on topic and what is not. Its not an optimal solution all the same it seems relatively harmless on your posts. Hopefully I won't have to do this again now that I made you aware of the problem. If you have any problems with this, please send me a PM and we will sort it out.

***

I have updated post:1 with some general guidelines and distinctions for a "reboot" of this thread. Lets keep things on topic here, if you please folks...

- A

Re-posted from the general thread... The RXB1004 bow-stats...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Axalon

Anyway, as some people asked for it... The RX-bow stats...

Bows of RXB1004: (current)
=================================
Peasant bow ---------- Range 100m, Accur 52%, Lethal 1.15, AP 0, Reload 6
Standard* ------------- Range 150m, Accur 80%, Lethal 1.75, AP 0, Reload 4
Warbow** ------------ Range 170m, Accur 93%, Lethal 2, AP 0, Reload 5
Longbow*** ---------- Range 280m, Accur 76%, Lethal 2, AP 50%, Reload 5

* Moorish-, Byzantine-, Feudal Archers, Slavic Bowmen and Foresters etc. etc.
** Norse Pathfinders, Royal Archers, Russian Boyars etc.
*** English Foresters, Longbowmen and Feudal version.

---

- A

Updated... As you were seemingly not allowed to, I recreated the blog here for you (the best I could). I cut the size on pics to 800x600 pixels as that is the max-res I allow here without using spoilers. Edit post if you want to make changes... - Axalon
------------------------------------------

I want to share with you one of my battles where AI really surprised me. The AI – defender – surprisingly made attack on me with strong right & echelon left formation. Redux VI-1004e, me playing as Poland and attacking Lituania’s province, as I remember Lithuania itself. While I don’t have replay or screenshots, I’ll try to show this battle as I remember, maybe not 100% accurate but I think it’s worth of it.


Order of Battle

Both armies were approx 3/4 stack, I’ve advantage in numbers, something like 6 spearmens, 2 Slavic infantry (good swordsman), 2 slavic archers (good archers), 2 heirs with royal knight , 1 some other heavy cav (polish nobles) & Commander ** with his light cavalry (lithuanian riders or something similar). Lithuania army was approx same number of units, some light inf / spearmens, 2 heavy cavs, 1 light cav, and those 4 or 5 Heathen Berserkers – 7 person unit. I really didn’t understand who those guys are, I thought there where some survivors from some battle which AI is unable to merge into one bigger unit. :)
Lithuania commander was also something like **. As I was superior in numbers and have good balanced army, I thought it will be pieca of cake.


The plan

So I approach them in standard single line ‘plalanx’ infantry formation, with standard plan to pin with infantry, even flank with my swordsmans, and hit from rear with my cavalry. Standard lazy tactic learned in Rome:TW. Ok, so my forces approached do enemy:

Legend/explanation:
---------------------------------
Polish army – blue
AI-managed Lithuania – gold

C – Cavalry,
LC – light cav,
S – spearmen or some lithuania other basic infantry,
LS – light spearmen/infantry,
B – berserkers,
SW – my Slavic Infantry (fine swordsmans),
A – archers.

Figure 1:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...RX_tomas01.jpg


MTW-Redux is unforgiving:

Here I did first error, my infantry line was not faced correctly to enemy, little to far to right, my left wing was slightly exposed. My Slavic Archers started to shoot to their appeared from air little forester archer unit and easily shoot them into pieces. Ok, nice begin, as enemy hasn’t got any more archers I thought I will continue shooting range and deconcentrated myself. My cav on left wing is ready to outflanking manevour, far from main forces. Next minute was shock to me.

Figure 2:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...RX_tomas02.jpg

Suddenly enemy’s right flank charged on my left flank (Figure 1 – general and Figure 2), with all his army moving from his left to right, increasing their advantage on their right wing. On my low level computer, with low fps, and me being deconcentrated, I slept for first 30 secs, didn’t realize what’s going on. When I hit Pause, it was something like 10-20 secs left for the stroke that will tie my left flank forces & their unit outflanking me going into big hole between left flank & cav, with tied my left flank cavalry, with right flank infantry doing nothing. It was noticable that enemy was attacking on left echelon formation, so their softened left flank was doing pressure but entering the combat with delay enough for them to win on their right flank.


The choice

For me it became clear that I can loose the battle or take huge casualties. Options were:

A – do nothing – stupid
B – make full infantry line 45 degree left turn – risky, my advancing right flank could be charged on move
C – react in panic, charging, moving unit to secure left flank etc – but I was afraid of chaos on battlefield, I want to remain order.
D – do something like Alexander in battle of Gaugamela – ‘roll’ left wing

I’ve chosen option D, first 3 left flank infantry units started to run back from enemy to new position 45 deegree to enemy, while rest infantry line moved left. (Figure 2 as ‘ghosts’)
Right heavy cav goes urgently to left flank, all under covering archers fire. I was really suprised and proud of myself because ‘rolling left flank’ and moving infantry line to left went good, my forces kept order.
Archers goes rear. I managed to do everything before enemy impact. , ok, time for …


The Clash:

Figure 3:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...RX_tomas03.jpg

So fight has started, my left flank is figthing, enemy’s softened left flank – like echelon left formation - didn’t enter the fight yet. Right flank swordsman goes immediately to help on left flank. Light cav on far right flank clashes wit enemy. But the worst situation is on the far left cavalry flank. My two heavy cavs figting with their one and 2 Berserkers and are loosing!. I don’t exactly remember what forces where in the battlefield, but more or less it was something like that. My 3rd heavy cav abandom rear charge on enemy infantry and urgenlty goes there to help. My archers are firing, right flank infantry starts to press enemy to tie in combat and possibly outflank.


Figure 4:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...RX_tomas04.jpg

Right flank light cav has routed enemy cav and immediately rides to left flank to destroy enemy and free my all cavalry to decisive hit. My left flank and center is in bad condition, taking casaulties, their 2rd heavy cavalry – general has charged on infantry. But finally enemty units are starting to rout. With heavy casaulties but I manage to outweight enemy on far left cavalry flank, On that fight as I remember I lost most of my 2 princes royal knights, and none of my princes & their knight survived those battle!


Figure 5:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...RX_tomas05.jpg

Ok. My remaining cavalry is charging from rear into enemty infantry and enemy general. Left and center of battlefield is one big mess. Heavy fight is around enemy’s general bodyguards and nearby berserkes. Enemy breaks, I took in prison their general, or killed – don’t remember exaclty.


Final/Aftermath:

My forces – while standing on the battlefield – are slaughtered. Both of my heirs royal knight unit’s – heirs and all their knights are dead, the units ‘disappeared’. My commander light cav is 12 out of starting 40. Only my archers are fresh in good shape&numbers. Battle that seemed to be easy, become a blood bath. While I’ve routed & mostly destroyed enemy army, I’ve lost almost same number of man – my good loyal soldiers. Those 7 man Heathen Berserkers are wild beasts. Never underestimate your enemy!

While I’ve made some mistakes entering this battle, I’ve managed to save the day and not realod the game :-). As I think crucial was to maintain the army order in Figure 2/3 phase of battle,
very important were archers that stayed on place and gave covering fire that lasted until the last second and allowed infantry units to form new line.


Edit: removed link to my blog, not needen anymore.

Hi, @Axalon: No problem. Might have even been better to move the recoloured parts to the new thread. I wouldn´t know how to do it, some of the mechanics of the forum engine are still a secret to me. So if you don´t mind, feel free to move them over.

re-posted Bow stats: In the original, there was written "slavic archers", not bowmen. Not having played the Polish yet, I had thought they were something else than the bowmen. Thanks for getting that clear.

@tmodelsk: Hi there, be welcome, and thanks for sharing your experience. Just have read it through. Get yourself the GnomeEditor from the download-section to read/compare stats of the different units. Redux is quite unforgiving when one underestimates(?) the opponent´s units. Heathen Berserkers - there are few units only to beat those "easily", for sure!
And: This three-post-limit shouldn´t be a problem - sharing experiences, asking questions, and giving advice to others is more fun than work, in my opinion. So please, go on!

greetings to all, daigaku

I just love pointing arrows and tactical charts of troops and their movements – it all looks so serious! Me like! (While I probably sound pretty unserious right now, I do like such stuff folks) :laugh4:

Anyway, what difficulty-level do/did you play on here Tomas? I have certainly made the mistake of underestimating the Lithuanians, this many times, “ah that’s just some pagan undisciplined rabble, no armor just some wild woodsmen, now where are their nobles and archers?” And then, I end up with horrendous losses and I even (unintentionally) lost battles a few times as well. Them berserkers are usually a part of the reason why…

Usually, I have learned my lesson and take the Lithuanians as seriously as I would the HRE or the Norse for instance. Lithuanians are pretty devious with their fast moving infantry and I typically make it an extra point to take out their berserkers with archers whenever possible – and before any contact! Once in contact, Heathen berserkers can cause massive damage on virtually any unit, and they can kill knights too… As you found out the hard way.

The AI does have a tendency to have a stronger right-flank then its left. Your charts further supports that claim as well, if you look at it. The Berserkers are without question the best units the Lithuanians had and they are all bunched up to the “Lithuanian right” (flank). It is also here where the Lithuanians initiate the attack (with the strongest units they got)…. The AI does that, when feeling confident enough to go on the offensive, even if actually being the defender – as obviously was the case this time.

Any other comments on this, folks?

-A

Difficulty level was standard. I think on expert - with AI valour bonuses - my units would rout first.
I agree with you Axalon that one of main factors that encouraged AI to attack was my infantry line to far right and exposed left flank.

Edit: Thanks Axalon for udpating my post & copying content, now my post count = 3 is enough :-).
Sorry for my poor English & a lot of (as i think) grammar & typos mistakes,

Historical note:
Tendency to stronger right flank is historically accurate for early phalanx armies, the commander & their strongest comrades where forming first and then rest of the tribe / city / army was joining on his left. But that is not this case of course. :-)

Excellent charts and explanation tmodelsk. Much enjoyed and very informative. Excellent analysis Axalon, very informative.

The Lithuanians do move fast on battlefield and always tricky to handle. They are always a worry when they have built up. I try to keep them busy or wipe them out before they gain strength when playing russians.

Would it have been a better outcome if initial arrow fire was concentrated on beserkers and commander?

Hi and thanks for posting guys...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarakas

Would it have been a better outcome if initial arrow fire was concentrated on beserkers and commander?

---

I would certainly argue that focusing on the berserkers would have created a different result/outcome. Because as I see it, plenty those casualties were at the hands of heathen berserkers, and it is likely that all knights who fell in this battle did so because of the berserkers. Whatever threat the small contingency of Lithuanian archers posed, it was nowhere close to that of the berserkers - and the archers could have been dealt with later, and with cavalry instead. Tomas/Tmodelsk had these results much due to his inexperience with Reduxed battle and the enemy he was facing - and he is the first one to admit it. He learned the hard way that you have to be on your toes while fighting in Redux, it is unforgiving and dynamic, and he will end up a better commander because of it (and possibly other players as well as he was kind enough to share this experience here, with all), or so I believe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tmodelsk

Difficulty level was standard. I think on expert - with AI valour bonuses - my units would rout first.

---

Probably so, I keep forgetting the big difference between standard and veteran-difficulty in battle, and stuff like foes get much tougher and stubborn on veteran-difficulty due to bonuses. As I always play at veteran-level I take all that for granted when I should not, such circumstances are not a normality in Redux but the exception - and I forget that all the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tmodelsk

I agree with you Axalon that one of main factors that encouraged AI to attack was my infantry line to far right and exposed left flank.

---

While that may very well be the case, it was not really what I meant. I was speaking in a universal sense, as in the AI have a tendency in most battles to set up a stronger right flank then its left. As it typically deploys its better troops to the right, if given the chance. Of course, the AI first needs a big enough army for any of this to show in deployment, but keep it in mind as you fight several battles and you will probably see what I mean... The tendency is there, or so I believe...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tmodelsk

Sorry for my poor English & a lot of (as i think) grammar & typos mistakes,

---

Don't worry about it, do your best and just post away. Posting and discussing back and forth, being repeatedly active here on the boards is very effective way to improve your written English-skills. My written English has certainly become better because of it, due to much training here. Its a skill like any other, "training makes perfect" as they say...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daigaku

re-posted Bow stats: In the original, there was written "slavic archers", not bowmen. Not having played the Polish yet, I had thought they were something else than the bowmen. Thanks for getting that clear.

---

Yeah, it was an initial mistake on my part, I corrected it later on...

- A

Hi, what are your castle defending best practices?

I want to put in castle small garrison (1-3) units to cause maximum damage to attacker in case of assault.
What is your advice for such garrison?

Theoretically and historically very good should be archer / crossbowman units.
But my last 'quick' castle defence showed that my crossbowan didn't shoot even once before walls have been breaken,
because ... ??? ... they can't shoot throught the walls?

Is there a way to place shooting unit on the walls (I think - not, only in Rome:TW and above),
or some good spot inside castle to effectively shoot on attackers outside walls?

Hello again Tomas/tmodelsk,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tmodelsk

Hi, what are your castle defending best practices? ... ...

---

Ummm... Personally I try to avoid getting to the point of siegee, as a defender – prefering to settle things on the field (if possible). If it can’t be avoided, I would favor a small garrison, that could sit tight for a long time, small units basically. Obviously it depends of the faction, but if we are talking about regular factions, then a few units of feudal champions is an excellent way to defend a castle at the gates. I would focus my attention to infantry-units, and small powerful ones (the grand champion, is an exception, due to being mounted). Foot knights is good and solid unit to defend a castle, as are any formation of royal knights. Other non-regular factions, I would go for the “Bodyguard”-units (Byzantine Cataphracts, Russian Nobles, Saracen/Moorish bodyguards etc. etc.).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tmodelsk

Theoretically and historically very good should be archer / crossbowman units. But my last 'quick' castle defence showed that my crossbowan didn't shoot even once before walls have been breaken,
because ... ??? ... they can't shoot throught the walls?

---

...Yeah, that’s the engine messing with you (and all of us). MTW can't handle that kind of stuff like MTW2 or some such. Sieges in MTW are essentially battles on (a few) concentrated points – leaving no or little room for manoeuvring – as is otherwise standard in any ordinary battle. It’s a shortcoming of the engine that we can do little about as all that stuff is hardcoded. So yeah, ranged units are hardly useful in sieges in a traditional sense – its infantry (and war-machines) that counts, always were, in all MTW-sieges.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tmodelsk

Is there a way to place shooting unit on the walls (I think - not, only in Rome:TW and above),
or some good spot inside castle to effectively shoot on attackers outside walls?

---

Nope I don't think so... My advice, forget about your crossbowmen and replace them with some footknights or infantry, they will do a much better job all over...

- A

Hi. Long time passed, Redux 1005 is released and I'm now again fighting for the Glory of Christianity :-).

In this post I want to share with all of you a story of fantastic heroic battle I've fought.

Strategic background ... :

I'm playing Redux 1005 VI, Aragonese, with some my own minor modifications (I'm software developer) but units stats are unchanched.

So, situation from 740 year ...
Attachment 14771
there is peace, all my defence against Moors are concentrated in Andalusia, my defence system assumes that Castilie will remain in Spain hands.
If Castillie falls to Moors - Moors will have access to all my Iberia provinces and I can't afford to have full stack army in each province.
If Castilie falls - this is strategic game over.

In year 744 from my spies I've received information that Spanish King has been killed in battle - defending Castilie against Moors !.
Somehow - thanks to bridge defence - Spanish won this battle, the Spanish prince became King.
For me it's obvious that sooner or later, maybe int next 1 - 2 - 3 year, Moors will attack Castillie again and won.
I see their full stack coming from Africa ...

So, in ... 744 I've decided to attack Cordoba - to possibly route or kill one of Moors armies - to help Spain.
Maybe it will be suicide attack, but I have nothing to loose.

I rapidly gathered all available forces and attacked Cordoba.
The forces are as shown :
Attachment 14772

as you see :
Aragonese: 825
Moors: 2000 of superb units !!

I've got two advantages over enemy :
- all my forces have armor upgrade, and most of my sword / halberd infantry has weapon upgrade.
- archers - 2 units of 100 men, basic ones but Moors have only some small 40 man archer unit.

And in general - my army is well balanced - archers, swords, spears / halbediers, heavy cavalry.

And here starts on of the most strange & exiting battle I've fought in in all Total War battles :-). (Shogun, Medieval, Rome)

Remember - I'm the attacker, Moors are defending ! Diff level is Redux Veteran (hardest).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPDaunF26-g

As you can see - Moors general feels so self-confident that he attacks !!!

Video time:

• 2:00 min - Moors are splitting forces, strong cavalry-camel wing splits from main forces to attack me from my left flank or behind !
• 2:45 - Moors want to crash me from opposing directions, leaving no chance to escape ... . I'm starting to fix my battle lines ...
• 3:15 - first serious mistake by Moors. They came to close with camels wing to my battle lines ... my archers starts shooting ...
• 3:40 - My left wing is ready to encounter flanking camels, I'm setting up the right wing to met main Moorish forces ...
• 3:50 - My brilliant decision - to shorten / centralize my positions.
  Benefits : my archers could fire on both sides - very effective. I have short communication routes between two wings, my wings can quickly help each other.
• 4:10 Almost final defense setup. While having a lot less of men, I want to have big advantage in numbers and quality on left wing to quickly destroy / route Moors camels flankers. I hope my right wing will hold on for a while. It's risky but could lead to victory ... .
  My battle lines are 'Reversed V' formation. I've never seen it before !! :-)
• 4:20 - Full Moorish assault from both wings. And their biggest mistake in this battle ! If they tided a lot of my forces on my left wing and are in worse position, they should wait with the attack on my left wing !! Time is playing for them !! But they attack on both wings, allowing me to quickly destroy their camels on left wing !!
• 4:45 - Moorish camels are destroyed or routed. My left wing is free and rapidly runs to right wing - because Moors have big advantage on my right wing ! On right - Moorish starts to outflank me, but my left forces - cavalry are one the way. Light billmen will be routed by Moorish boddyguards. RIght wing cav is doing brilliant maneveour - is escaping from spear infatry, leading it far far from battle and charging at enemy lines from behind !!
• 5:00 - I'm starting to outflank enemy on top of reversed V - it's done by infantry from left wing. My king clashes with Moorish Bodyguards !!
• 5:15 - It looks likeMoors outflanking manaveur on right bottom wing is stopped. If my central battle lines - infantry - will hold little longer I will be able to use my 'liberated' units as advantage !
• 5:18 - My brave King with his companions KILLED enemy commander !!
• 5:30 - YES YES YES - FULL Royal Knights CHARGE from rear, which will initiate routing sequence !!! On top of reversed V - infantry flanking is done !!
• 5:45 Y E S !! Y E S !! Enemy is running away !!! But that is only half of success - Moors have huge reinforcements.
• 6:00 Here starts second phase of battle - killing routers and figthing with reinforcements.
  I really hate those phase of battle and do not have good fighting patterns. It's one big mess !! But slowly I'm pushing enemy to map corner

Screenshot from the begining of battle with units banners :
Attachment 14773

And final battle kills & looses :
Attachment 14774
As you can see, Aragonese killed about 1660 enemies while loosing only 480, own / enemy looses are less then 30%.
But my army is dramatic conditions, only archers are operational.
My King's companios payed high blood price, and so other units .... .

Strategis situanion after battle :
In the same year 744, parallel to my attack at Cordoba, Moors has again attacked Castilie and conquered it !!
So their stack from Cordoba conqured Castilie, and their stack from Grenada moved to Cordoba and lost battle wit me.

In the next year I immediatelly attacked Castilie - it was second near-suicide battle 800 vs 1200, no anything to loose.
I've managed to conquer Castillie, but my King was forced to abandom Cordoba with his 400 army - he has no chance of fighting with next full stack.
So after a few more battles - everything on the edge of survival - situation stabilized in 749.

Casilie & Andaluzja in my hands, acting as main defence provinces, in Castilie is a river bridge defence position.

!!! I'VE DONE THIS !!!

Conslussion:

• It's effective to move war to enemy territory, even if you ca't hold conquered enemy province for a longer time.
• Enemy will loose province profit from his territorry, even for a year or two - it's worth, maybe some builiding destroyed.
• You will not loose profit from your provinces.
• You have a strategic initiative. You can try to capture some enemy army in province with no escape and after won battle destroy such army.
• Battle tactic : in my opinion and experience it's good to keep your guys together each other. So rather focus - tide up your units that scatter all around.
  Rather use Roman-style tactic (your army inside square area) than very long single battle line. But of course it depends on particular situation.

Axalon - Redux 1005 is very very good !
I like economic slow-down. Units are perfectly balanced.
In the near future I'll write my proposals to improve Redux even more.
Or propose my own little mod to Redux which fits my feelings.

!! REGARDS !!

I totally dig your post! Overall, I just love that you spare no expense in providing the reader with solid materials to show that everything you report in on this battle has actually happened, and indeed can happen, and how! Pics, observations, in-depth analysis, commentary and conclusions, and even video! That's the way its done! What more can one possibly ask for, folks? How fun and cool would not this place be if we had - even a small group of players - that did this and such stuff regularly here. I would certainly visit this place more often, that much is sure...

Anyhow, a few thoughts and comments for you regarding the battle specifically... I think its an unexpected and quite remarkable victory in Redux, against heavy odds. The Muslims had more, and typically better formations/units to deploy, and they had basically just as good equipment as the Christians (you) had. The Muslims basically should have won, all they had to do to ensure a total victory was to secure a 1:1 (or better) kill ratio and it would have been so. Obviously, they where nowhere close to that, and that in turn ultimately spelled their doom and defeat. They simply did not do enough damage to win the day - the AI basically screwed up tactically all over and lost because of the fact. Numerical might, unit quality, experience and equipment will certainly influence an outcome - but evidently - not totally dictate it as this case explicitly shows. Actual tactics and leadership in the field - good and bad - will clearly also be a heavy factor in Reduxed battles.

Tomas, thanks for posting this stuff, it was really interesting stuff and an excellent post. I'll post up (an unaltered) copy of it over at the TWC, so more people can read about this remarkable battle, as it deserves (assuming this is OK with you, otherwise let me know).

- A


Link to TWC-thread...

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14231235

I have had the intention for quite some time to post up this little piece of information, and now I finally do... Ever since RXB1004 (was it?), you can use all the various Naptha-units in Redux to damage wall, towers and gates during battles. Obviously this goes for RXB1005 as well. In other words they (Naptha-units) can function as a limited siege-weapons/troops (at a pinch) should it ever become necessary. This circumstance was originally not planned by me, but became the result as I increased their damage. As a result they can virtually "blow through" even stonewalls if you have enough Naptha-units deployed. ...Just a little potential tactic for the desperate enough commander (obviously regular siege-weapons will still work to greater effect)...

Try it folks, its pretty fun...

- A