public order

Hi. I just wonder if you are going to do anything about the public order in eb? Becouse when capturing cities the only option if you want to keep the city is sacking it.

I have occupied only a few cities without sacking them, and even though the governors influence is high, and the garrison is about 3000 soliders they are very angry. Cisites not long from the capital and cities I have kept for many, many years building everything I can and with populations low.

I think now, about 50% of the game is about keeping public order low in every city, and when the governor dies, they turn red. Most of my cities are blue, but I keep building, and having great garrions and governors with high influence.

You may say "its historical accurate". But I think a population of 20k, should be kept quiet by my largest army and my best family member after I have had the city from the beginning. Is it possible to reduce "distance from capital" counting? Its hard, and stressing.

Yes, we will do stuff with the public order. You may not have an easier time keeping order in a huge empire though, I think that will be harder than in EB1.

The population in cities is not something you can take at face value. It's an arbitrary number that doesn't reflect anything about the actual population of the region, realistic population levels or anything like the number of people needed to maintain the armies.

yeah ok, on historical accurate, what I meant to say was that the population is not realistic in rtr anyway. A little confusing post, sorry.

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Originally Posted by ludwag

Is it possible to reduce "distance from capital" counting? Its hard, and stressing.

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I totally agree with this right here. I mean, I'm almost 1,000 miles away from Washington, DC and I don't feel like inciting a riot!

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Originally Posted by Majd il-Romani

I totally agree with this right here. I mean, I'm almost 1,000 miles away from Washington, DC and I don't feel like inciting a riot!

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That´s just becasue all the bars are keeping the PO up.

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Originally Posted by General Appo

That´s just becasue all the bars are keeping the PO up.

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nonalchoholic...

Video game entertainment. TV. Propaganda. No starvation, even a luxurious surplus for many of the people. You don't riot because you have a good life.

In antiquity, you were living with the constant risk of a bad harvest. The only contact you have with your rulers is them coming occasionally to take away the small surplus that you have, and then some. Sometimes they would even come for you yourself, dragging you off to some war in a faraway land that you have no interest in, or even knew that existed.

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Originally Posted by Majd il-Romani

nonalchoholic...

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Doesn´t matter if the whole region is, a bar still gives +15 PO.

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Originally Posted by bovi

Video game entertainment. TV. Propaganda. No starvation, even a luxurious surplus for many of the people. You don't riot because you have a good life.

In antiquity, you were living with the constant risk of a bad harvest. The only contact you have with your rulers is them coming occasionally to take away the small surplus that you have, and then some. Sometimes they would even come for you yourself, dragging you off to some war in a faraway land that you have no interest in, or even knew that existed.

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ok, I get it. :idea2:

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Originally Posted by bovi

Video game entertainment. TV. Propaganda. No starvation, even a luxurious surplus for many of the people. You don't riot because you have a good life.

In antiquity, you were living with the constant risk of a bad harvest. The only contact you have with your rulers is them coming occasionally to take away the small surplus that you have, and then some. Sometimes they would even come for you yourself, dragging you off to some war in a faraway land that you have no interest in, or even knew that existed.

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:medievalcheers: That is absolutely RIGHT. ~:cheers:

In EB, I always just slaughter the regions I take that can't build a type 1 or 2 government. It keeps my frontier places docile while I build up the interior of my empire. Then after I have my people nice and content, I can start building up those frontier regions. I find public order extremely easy to care of and could care less if they added more or less of it, because either way a good extermination will keep the city under control for a good 10-20 years.

I havent captured new land in maybe 100 turns. Becouse it is impossible to control the public order while fighting the enemy at the same time :(

But i have sacked all egypt, greece, italy, southern arabia, some of india and hayasdan and now I am sacking asia minor. But I cant keep any of it becouse of public order. So sometimes I miss vanilla rtr. public order is the only thing I dont like about EB, and I dont think it is historical accurate.

In reallity, if someone did someting bad, like destroying some buildings or something, the people that own the city could do something to the people like mass exicutions. But in total war game, that is not possible. So I think that to stabilize, the public order could be lower.

i've NEVER that had that much of a problem with public order. if you take over a settlement that has a different culture, upgrade the governors building as soon as you can

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Originally Posted by mcantu

i've NEVER that had that much of a problem with public order.

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Me neither. What I do have a problem with is the corruption, which is simply gargantuan, considering that I own 120 provinces by now. I wish there would be something more in EB II that could help deal with corruption. I thought I was going to conquer the wolrd, but after seeing how much my outer settlements are losing due to corruption and how negative their income is, I was quickly tempered. My capital is still Roma and I the easternmost settlements I own are Seleukeia and Babylon. Ekbatana-Susa-Charax is probably going to be the line of the furthest eastern extent of my empire. Such as Client Rulers for instance. After all, a Type IV government and the Client Ruler wasn't so much dependent on the capital of his overlords, thus theoretically reducing corruption. A settlement with Type IV government is like its own capital (almost). Now reducing corruption is not so historically accurate, but EB is a computer game. Game mechanics are not accurate like, say units for instance. A general's view camera is historically accurate, but almost no one uses it in the TW games.

atm I am training like 3896547226300 celtic archers now, for garrioson after I have conquered italy. And one merchenary general for each city I capture. Then I will have to use all my income for building buildings that increeces happyness. And I have to do that for maybe 604320 turns. Now the governor witch have got alot of influence from building all this, he dies. And the city rebels.

btw, Aemilius, how to control the camera when using generals cam? arrows/wasd or making the general and press on the ground?

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Originally Posted by ludwag

btw, Aemilius, how to control the camera when using generals cam? arrows/wasd or making the general and press on the ground?

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Not sure what you're asking. Please clarify if possible.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Me neither. What I do have a problem with is the corruption, which is simply gargantuan, considering that I own 120 provinces by now. I wish there would be something more in EB II that could help deal with corruption. I thought I was going to conquer the wolrd, but after seeing how much my outer settlements are losing due to corruption and how negative their income is, I was quickly tempered. My capital is still Roma and I the easternmost settlements I own are Seleukeia and Babylon. Ekbatana-Susa-Charax is probably going to be the line of the furthest eastern extent of my empire. Such as Client Rulers for instance. After all, a Type IV government and the Client Ruler wasn't so much dependent on the capital of his overlords, thus theoretically reducing corruption. A settlement with Type IV government is like its own capital (almost). Now reducing corruption is not so historically accurate, but EB is a computer game. Game mechanics are not accurate like, say units for instance. A general's view camera is historically accurate, but almost no one uses it in the TW games.

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Well, in theory, it is harder to maintain an empire rather than build one. know what I mean? so you never have public order problems? I always get those in alot of my settlements.

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Originally Posted by ludwag

btw, Aemilius, how to control the camera when using generals cam? arrows/wasd or making the general and press on the ground?

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use the RTS camera, it is better.

Does I have to select the general and click where he has to go on the ground? just like other units? How to control the generals cam? :s

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Originally Posted by ludwag

Does I have to select the general and click where he has to go on the ground? just like other units? How to control the generals cam? :s

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The general cam just means that the camera is restricted to where the general's unit is. Everything else stays the same.

Foot

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Originally Posted by ludwag

How to control the generals cam? :s

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Just go to Options on the main menu before loading a game, and find the Generals Cam option, and check it.

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In EB, I always just slaughter the regions I take that can't build a type 1 or 2 government. It keeps my frontier places docile while I build up the interior of my empire. Then after I have my people nice and content, I can start building up those frontier regions. I find public order extremely easy to care of and could care less if they added more or less of it, because either way a good extermination will keep the city under control for a good 10-20 years.

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Yeah, that's what I do. Extermination. Besides, I don't blitz and try to conquer the whole map. I keep my empire at a realistic size, so less unrest due to distance from capital. It gets boring when you just conquer everything.

With the map scale larger in EB2, I am predicting AS and Sauro will be the hardest factions to play in EB2.

Presumably, movement rates will be adjusted proportionally?
Units in EB move too slowly as it is, and not adjusting movement rates in EB II will just exacerbate the problem.

I think they made movement points low for a reason.

Hmm. I, also, wonder whether they will increase movement rates slightly. For my part, I wouldn't care much for either decision. It's just a curiosity.

It would be kind of pointless to increase the map scale and then increase the movement points. I think Foot said he wanted the roads to have a large bonus to movement and for regular movement points to be reduced so roads have a major importance like they did in RL.

I suppose you're right. Increasing movement would also partially destroy the likelier possibilities of field battles.

What I would really like to see change is the whole "exterminate city" and suddenly everyone is happy. What I think should happen is that once you exterminate a city, it becomes compliant but all your other cities become a little less loyal out of disgust for your actions. I don't know how that could be implemented other then script and even with that I have no idea on how to make a script for such an action.

Why would the citizens of Rome get mad if a triumphator slaughters some filthy Gauls? To make a system like that realistic, a lot of coding would have to be done. It might even be outright impossible.

Plus, the "exterminate" option could just be changed to enslave.

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Originally Posted by desert

Why would the citizens of Rome get mad if a triumphator slaughters some filthy Gauls? To make a system like that realistic, a lot of coding would have to be done. It might even be outright impossible.

Plus, the "exterminate" option could just be changed to enslave.

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I would think they cheered in the Triumph for the general for defeating another "uncivilized" enemy of the Republic, not because he went in there and slaughtered everyone including women and children. Even with the gladiator battles the Romans loved, the gladiators were usually prisoners of war, criminals and slaves, who held no respect except for those who were extremely good at being a fighter.

Again, why would they care?

And it doesn't have to be extermination. A simple change from Exterminate to Enslave is all that's neccessary.

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Originally Posted by desert

Again, why would they care?

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Because people generally don't like mass murder and genocide?

I heard that they dislike slavery and war as well.

Even if that option is assumed to be absolute massacre and every single person in the region drops dead, I doubt that the capital of the faction responsible will suddenly experience riots because of it.

Your argument is baseless. This is not the Enlightenment, this is Antiquity.

And what makes you think the average person in the street would hear about it? Even if they did thay had more important things to worry about.

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Originally Posted by desert

Your argument is baseless. This is not the Enlightenment, this is Antiquity.

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My argument may be baseless but your attitude is poor.

I didn't think I was being overly harsh or aggressive. :shrug:~:(

My apologies, for whatever they are worth to you. Civility is always important.

No problem, I understand your point that most people would not have heard of what the army is doing and would not have cared, but what about the KH and Athens in particular with its Democracy?

Democracy doesn't really have that much to do with it, at least directly, but yes, Athenians, Thebans, and all the rest would have been offended deeply if, say, the KH FL sacked Delphi or razed Corinth to the ground just because there were Maks occupying it.

So maybe you can make the case that enslaving/exterminating people in your homeland regions will make your homelanders unhappy. Although I think there are already some traits related to that. And it would have to be relative. Steppe people usually won't give a crap if you destroy some foreign tribe, and the Casse won't shy away from killing their fellow Britons, etc.

Idk about the traits, I played as KH and took Delphi, exterminated it and destroyed the Oracle and nothing happened except the loss of bonuses the Oracle gave.

I remember there was a trait called "Kills Own People" or something to that effect.

Calling for bovi, MAA, or Aemilius Paulus...

Imma look up that trait and its trigger. Also, I meant I took Thermon, not Delphi.

As far as I can tell from searching extermination triggers/traits, there is only:

Genocide
Bloodthirsty
BloodthirstyGaul

EDIT: Also I can't find a trait called KillsOwnPeople

Hopefully bovi knows.

I remember that trait. It's a likely possibility that it was removed along with the exterminate option. Maybe there's an Enslaved Own People, or something of the sort?

There is only one Enslaved trait and that is enslaves allies.

There is a bad trait you can get for "enslaving" a city that is of your own culture, such as KH enslaving Thermon or Sinope...

That's "Enslaving Allies" right?

I could have sworn I had answered this sometime earlier, but can't find the post. Perhaps I'll write it up again later.

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Originally Posted by desert

Calling for bovi, MAA, or Aemilius Paulus...

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Ooooh, I am flattered :blush:!


You mean this trait?:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trait EnslavedAllies
Characters family

Level Enslaved_Allies
Description Enslaved_Allies_desc
EffectsDescription Enslaved_Allies_effects_desc
GainMessage Enslaved_Allies_gain_desc
Threshold 1

Effect Influence -3

Level Exterminated_Allies
Description Exterminated_Allies_desc
EffectsDescription Exterminated_Allies_effects_desc
GainMessage Exterminated_Allies_gain_desc
Threshold 2

Effect Influence -5

Triggers (tells you what settlement and which faction's FM has to take that settlement and enslave it in order to get this trait):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

General Enslaves or Exterminated Allied Eleutheroi City
;------------------------------------------
Trigger Has_Captured_Allied_City
WhenToTest CharacterTurnStart

Condition Trait JustCapturedAlliedCity > 0

Affects HasCapturedAlliedCity 1 Chance 100

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Trigger Getai_Captured_Kallatis
WhenToTest GeneralCaptureSettlement

Condition FactionType dacia
and SettlementName Kallatis

Affects JustCapturedAlliedCity 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Pontos_Captured_Chersonesos
WhenToTest GeneralCaptureSettlement

Condition FactionType carthage
and SettlementName Chersonesos

Affects JustCapturedAlliedCity 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Pontos_Captured_Nikomedia
WhenToTest GeneralCaptureSettlement

Condition FactionType carthage
and SettlementName Nikaia

Affects JustCapturedAlliedCity 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Ptolemaioi_Captured_Halikarnassos
WhenToTest GeneralCaptureSettlement

Condition FactionType numidia
and SettlementName Halikarnassos

Affects JustCapturedAlliedCity 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Ptolemaioi_Captured_Siwa
WhenToTest GeneralCaptureSettlement

Condition FactionType numidia
and SettlementName Ammonion

Affects JustCapturedAlliedCity 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Arche_Seleukeia_Captured_Kyrene
WhenToTest GeneralCaptureSettlement

Condition FactionType romans_julii
and SettlementName Kyrene

Affects JustCapturedAlliedCity 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Koinon_Hellenon_Captured_Thermon
WhenToTest GeneralCaptureSettlement

Condition FactionType greek_cities
and SettlementName Thermon

Affects JustCapturedAlliedCity 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Koinon_Hellenon_Captured_Sinope
WhenToTest GeneralCaptureSettlement

Condition FactionType greek_cities
and SettlementName Sinope

Affects JustCapturedAlliedCity 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Koinon_Hellenon_Captured_Pantikapaion
WhenToTest GeneralCaptureSettlement

Condition FactionType greek_cities
and SettlementName Pantikapaion

Affects JustCapturedAlliedCity 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Koinon_Hellenon_Captured_Trapezous
WhenToTest GeneralCaptureSettlement

Condition FactionType greek_cities
and SettlementName Trapezous

Affects JustCapturedAlliedCity 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------