What to do with non-faction buildings?

Hi

Just started playing EB 1.2 under BI and it has been great so far. I have chosen the Romans to start with and I am only a few turns in to the game.

I have now just conquered some provinces to the north and south and I decided to Occupy both. I now have to deal with the building that were built by the previous owners and the population in those provinces..

How do I know whether I should leave the buildings or demolish them and replace them with my own factional buildings? I see many of them offer bonuses but is that only of that faction controls it, or does it apply to any faction?

Cheers

Bull

At the bottom it should say "Used only by: blah blah blah" With blah being different factions, if your faction is not listed, it is not useful in any way, and just destroy it.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

At the bottom it should say "Used only by: blah blah blah" With blah being different factions, if your faction is not listed, it is not useful in any way, and just destroy it.

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I occupied Taras and all 12 of the buildings/structures have tags saying indicating "Western Greek", but only one of them actually had the "Used by:" description. That was a buidling that made military units so I destroyed it.

As far as the remaining 11 buildings/structures, is there any good reason to perhaps destroy any of them them and replace them with Roman equivalents? Is it that you can't "upgrade" foreign buildings and that is why you might want to consider demolishing a building and building your own factional version of it?

For example, there is a building there called Nomos Stratiotikos Kathektos (Epeirote Military Controlled Territory) II. It affects tax income, troop morale, public order and population growth.

Is it possible to leave this building and build a Roman version of it so that you get additional bonuses from having two factional versions of the same building?

I need to understand how this all works and how the "government" side of things works when you conquer a province.

Cheers

Bull

WAIT!!! Don't destroy the wonders unless you really need the cash. I mean, you can't just go around destroying wonders, man. That is not cool.

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Originally Posted by Bullman

I occupied Taras and all 12 of the buildings/structures have tags saying indicating "Western Greek", but only one of them actually had the "Used by:" description. That was a buidling that made military units so I destroyed it.

As far as the remaining 11 buildings/structures, is there any good reason to perhaps destroy any of them them and replace them with Roman equivalents? Is it that you can't "upgrade" foreign buildings and that is why you might want to consider demolishing a building and building your own factional version of it?

For example, there is a building there called Nomos Stratiotikos Kathektos (Epeirote Military Controlled Territory) II. It affects tax income, troop morale, public order and population growth.

Is it possible to leave this building and build a Roman version of it so that you get additional bonuses from having two factional versions of the same building?

I need to understand how this all works and how the "government" side of things works when you conquer a province.

Cheers

Bull

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For how the governments work read the FAQ. You need to destroy the enemy government though, because if you try to build your own while the other is still there, or you try to repair the enemy government, the games crashes to desktop.

Government and Military buildings... Vastatio the Romans called it, think of the English word Waste and you get the idea of what should be done with them.

The rest, let them be, Shrines of Athens become Temple of Minerva and so forth.

What about cities, that are larger than 24 000 people and have the foreign governor's palace? Is there antoher way to replace it than to let the city fall to the enemy retake it and enslave the population, so you can upgrade the palace?

You can't do anything about huge cities, they will always stay that way.

Ah thank you, I already supposed that:embarassed:

Always destroy enemy governments.

Destroy enemy barracks unless you can recruit troops from them yourself.

Never destroy wonders (that's unfair on the AI, because they never do it.)

Destroy enemy temples only for religious reasons, e.g. if you're a barbarian faction and the enemy are not barbarians and you want to prove your gods are stronger. Or if your faction hates their religion (Romans hate the Carthaginian religion).

Destroy everything else only if you want to make maximum money by looting, pillaging and burning the town and selling the inhabitants as slaves. (Except the women, you have another use for them!)

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

because if you try to build your own while the other is still there, or you try to repair the enemy government, the games crashes to desktop.

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hehe, I've done that a 1000 times, and tho it has never worked, it has never crashed either ;)

btw, in the same vein, those buildings that you DON'T smash, since they are usable by you, but which ARE built by previous owners, do they add to the cultural difference-kinda-unrest? I mean, fx temples to foreign gods, it says they give fx 5% order bonus, but I was wondering, if they were really counterproductive until I've upgraded them to my own faction - that is, do they add to unrest at the same time by being of a different culture?

Foreign temples/markets/... give bonusses. Just watch the public order when you do destroy one, it drops as much as the bonus.

Wait, but that means that huge cities will always need a good governor, since they have different gov. buildings?

The palace determines the culture of the city. Your palace = your culture. You shouldn't leave a huge city without a governor anyway, no matter the culture.

Destroy all government buildings and build your own. Destroy barracks if they don't work for your faction. Handle all other buildings roleplay-wise. Don't destroy wonders unless your faction really would. For example as Makedonia I destroyed the Kolossos of Rhodos and the Lakes of Tolosa.

Why/how would you destroy lakes?

how: you drain it
why: usually to make more space

why specificly that lake with the maks: don't know but i would gladly be enlightend

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Why would you destroy lakes?

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There is gold inside the lakes that the Celts looted in Delphi.

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How would you destroy lakes?

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Click "destroy" / dig a channel.

And here I thought that you were destroying them just to show those barbaric Celts your civilization's immense terraforming capabilities. :laugh4:

Some of you mentioned their game crashing when using a foreign government building or the government not working. This is odd - in my KH game, Makedonian type I gov in Pella and Demetrias works just great - repaired and saved 10 turns of construction time plus as KH you usually can't build type I in Pella (no homeland resource).
And I think even as KH I would think twice about draining the lakes of Tolosa because it is *very* far away from my mainland and any reinforcements should the population have objections...

Repairing foreign gov buildings only gives a CTD when you are of another culture AFAIK.

In my Arverni campaign I kept using the Aedui govs.

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Originally Posted by Nachtmeister

Some of you mentioned their game crashing when using a foreign government building or the government not working. This is odd - in my KH game, Makedonian type I gov in Pella and Demetrias works just great - repaired and saved 10 turns of construction time plus as KH you usually can't build type I in Pella (no homeland resource).
And I think even as KH I would think twice about draining the lakes of Tolosa because it is *very* far away from my mainland and any reinforcements should the population have objections...

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I you have ever read the descriptions, you'd know that for the KH, a lvl 1 gov represents a Spartan approach to government, whereas lvl 2 represents the Athenian or more democratic way. So what is the use for you to keep the Makedonian lvl 1 gov? I doubt that you'd be able to recruit Spartiates there. Mak lvl 1 gov means "Patris Makedonike" or Makedonian Homeland in English. Leaving it in place as KH is like conquering them and saying "well, we conquered you, and now go on like you were still the mighty and independent Kingdom that tortured us so often, but it would be very kind of you if you obey now to what we tell you. OK?" - "Err, no."

And regarding the lakes, yes I thought about it, and thought about just leaving them and just add the respective money to my treasury, but decided to drain them nevertheless. The wonder building is only there because of the Gold of Delphi inside, and not just because of the lakes. There are hundreds of lakes that aren't mentioned in any way. So it was necessary to drain them to show the barbarians who's now in charge and tells what to do. Barbarians know now that nobody can go to Greece and loot our sanctuaries like as we wouldn't care about it and leave to other people what's rightfully ours...



EB is best played role played. - Centurio Nixalsverdrus, ~ A.D. 2008

The government CTD only occures when you capture a settlement with multiple governments and tear down some and try to repair others. The game goes, "How can I repair a building in a building tree that was just torn down?" and quits.

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

I you have ever read the descriptions, you'd know that for the KH, a lvl 1 gov represents a Spartan approach to government, whereas lvl 2 represents the Athenian or more democratic way. So what is the use for you to keep the Makedonian lvl 1 gov? I doubt that you'd be able to recruit Spartiates there. Mak lvl 1 gov means "Patris Makedonike" or Makedonian Homeland in English. Leaving it in place as KH is like conquering them and saying "well, we conquered you, and now go on like you were still the mighty and independent Kingdom that tortured us so often, but it would be very kind of you if you obey now to what we tell you. OK?" - "Err, no."[/I]

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that's basically what a "free polis" government does - 'xept that it gives you no troops in that area because factions cannot recruit their own factional troops as regionals and you can't build any advanced buildings there. But that's just game mechanics.
Now why should it not be possible to have a loose panhellenic empire in which the various rather independent cities still erect hellenic "advanced buildings" / monuments? Rhodos built the Kolossos as an independent state and really what Megas Alexandros did in Greece is roughly equivalent to erecting free polis governments all over Hellas, for the most part without even first having to set up "military occupation" - say, this time Sparta united Hellas against the rest of the world.
And AFAIK the Makedonians never "tortured" the southern Greeks - they just demanded military support when called upon and maybe taxes (not even sure about the taxes). The KH just wanted to get "back to the roots", each state following it's own dreams of empire; the prestige and glory of conquering Persia was already won and they had no interest in supporting a long-term empire that was not set up in their individual names. Sparta was never even had any open conflicts with Makedonia other than the initial battle that was Greece's first encounter with the Makedonian phalanx until the KH was formed (They did not partake in the conquest of Persia but remained fully independent of Makedonia on a "you don't shit us, we don't shit you because your crappy little backwater-town is not worth having to put up with your tough mosha-boyz"-basis).
Or did I miss something?
:eyebrows::book:
Oh and I interpret KH "type I" as "Spartan-style feudal with military conscription established"; no city other than Sparta (no, not even Demetrias or !Athenai! where the homeland resource is present) really had an "Agoge" but rather somewhat less centralized early combat training until men entered the "Ephebeia"/"Wehrdienst" as youths...
Again, unless I am mistaken / missing something. In that case, please correct me.

A loose alliance of free poleis is represented by a type 3 gov. The Makedonians administered their country differently in comparison to the southrons.

That "tortured" was said from the fictional perspective of the Koinon Hellenon. The southern Greeks didn't like the Makedonians very much because they tried to subdue them for a long time with various success. Fetters of Hellas etc. They called them uncultured barbarians, no matter if it was right or not (it was not, of course).

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

A loose alliance of free poleis is represented by a type 3 gov. The Makedonians administered their country differently in comparison to the southrons.

That "tortured" was said from the fictional perspective of the Koinon Hellenon. The southern Greeks didn't like the Makedonians very much because they tried to subdue them for a long time with various success. Fetters of Hellas etc. They called them uncultured barbarians, no matter if it was right or not (it was not, of course).

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Type III would be a "local tyrant" - taken literally, the term has a certain similarity to what I interpret type I to be. But type III has the same problem as type IV here: playing as KH, you can't recruit Greek regional units as regional units. This is why I just repair the Makedonian gov buildings as a "workaround" for roleplaying a loose alliance with most autonomy retained. The difference is, now a Spartan becomes king of Makedonia - but he runs the place just about like his now dead predecessor would have as far as internal politics are concerned. This is just about what Ptolemaios did in Egypt. AND I think that this is perfectly plausible - considering that *any* KH expansion northward beyond Athenai is absolutely "alternative history" in the first place.

I also think that it should really be possible to recruit at least phalangitai deuteroi, if due to loyalty concerns not pezhetairoi (though you could always role-play installing your own citizens as land-owners with ample time to familiarize themselves with a new type of weapon) as regional units in Makedonia. Maybe the time it takes your own newly established citizens there to train with the new weapons could be represented by having the phalangites at local MIC level 4 or 5 - meaning 30 or 45 turns, so at least 7 to 11 years. In 11 years, it should be possible to introduce a new type of weapon into an ancient infantry army - this is about the amount of time it takes a modern government to invent and introduce a new jet fighter or to build an entire aircraft carrier! And it is somewhat more player-controlled than an ominous MOT-event that may or may not occur.

I agree with you on the point that at least the Spartans and also some "back-to-the-roots"-elements in the societies of other City-States like Athenai must have had little love for the Makedonians.

There is another thing that I find very strange - why would Korinthos not be traditional Greek homeland? Of course, I would never set up a type I government there, but still I think the homeland-marker should be present for accurate representation. Korinthos may have never really left Makedonian control during the EB time period but the reason for that control was a strong garrison, and certainly not the local population (which was still very Greek including any minor cultural differences there might be when compared to Makedonians).

I know that I could just edit the corresponding files in my game directory but I am asking for your opinion about the plausibility of this.



BTW - I love this forum. Nowhere else (on the internet afaik) is it possible to have such entertaining but absolutely serious discussions about possible alternative routes that ancient history could have taken!
And though I do not know how this is done but have seen it done before, I humbly request that any moderator who reads this split this part of the thread from the rest. I did not mean to hijack it away from the original topic, but unit recruitment IS very tightly embedded in factional and non-factional buildings.

Wait, wait... so if I conquered the Ptolemaioi as the Seleukids and just repaired their type1 govs I would be able to get all of their best?! I didn't know it worked this way.:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Mister V

Wait, wait... so if I conquered the Ptolemaioi as the Seleukids and just repaired their type1 govs I would be able to get all of their best?! I didn't know it worked this way.:inquisitive:

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You can still only build your own units. Most likely if a Type1 is not available in a region then neither are any faction elites.

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Originally Posted by Mister V

Wait, wait... so if I conquered the Ptolemaioi as the Seleukids and just repaired their type1 govs I would be able to get all of their best?! I didn't know it worked this way.:inquisitive:

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You would be able to build your highest level of MIC there (but AFAIK those are shared by AS and Ptolemaioi anyway), however units available for recruitment are faction-specific for each province. For instance if you build a factional MIC 5 in Sparte while playing the Romans you would still not be able to recruit Spartan hoplites.
So I think you would in your example probably not be able to recruit Galatikoi klerouchoi.
Neither would the Ptolemaioi be able to recruit thorakitai agemata basilikou although the AI seems to always leave the damaged government buildings in provinces it conquers (when conquering my way across Mikra Asia as KH, I often find both Ptolemaioi and AS government buildings in any provinces that were taken from one by the other). :dizzy2:

1)Replace foreign temples, the further on the fringes of your empire, the sooner the better, as the cultural differences tend to weigh heavily, especially if your culture differs a lot from the one you just conquered. E.g. pull down barbarian stuff like taverns etc, if you are say, Roman or Greek, and replace them with your own buildings (and vice versa, of course). As Romani I tend to build Jupiter temples: they give law bonus and thwart corruption. I guess there should be an according deity for all cultures. If not, stick to what you got until you can upgrade it with your own temple.
2)Tear down MICs and government buildings immediatly and replace them according to your strategy, as they grant different troops/benefits. Plus they can give you some nice cash bonus, especially if the city is well developed, the MICs can reward you up to 5000 mnai!
3)Ultima ratio: if your hostile take-over goes astray (i.e. the city revolts and kicks you out) re-take the city and this time wipe out those ingrate swine! And a small populace is easier to bully, isn't it? :eyebrows:

Does anyone know how exactly the culture penalty works? Do all foreign cultures weigh the same or are there differences?

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Originally Posted by Lysimachos

Does anyone know how exactly the culture penalty works? Do all foreign cultures weigh the same or are there differences?

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Yes. Culture penalty is mostly caused by the governor's residence. All other buildings have only a minor effect. I used to think temples were important too, but now I am not sure.