Printable View
Hi guys,
Just wondering which of the two above do people tend to recruit more of and why?
I like the number of javelins and the skirmish element of Peltastai (one click and they remain at a distance and throw all there javelins). Also there sword mean more attack vs infantry than Thureophoroi, I think at least.
However Thureophoroi have more defensive capability + much better against cavalry.
Cavalry seem to chew through Peltastai with ease.
I prefer Thureophoroi since they do much better against cavalry trying to flank my lines plus I can use them to plug any holes in the hoplite line as they also do much better against infantry in combat. I make up for the lesser missile fire power with a couple units of slingers.
Thracians.
Thureophoroi are far better in my opinion. They are perfect to outflank the enemy while your phalanx are holding the lines, if you lack the cavalry, or for defending your own flanks. I usually hide them a bit behind my phalanx, and enable fire at will. After all missiles have been launched I usually outflank the enemy with Thureophoroi together with cavalry. Few enemies survived that strategy early on on VH/VH. At least, the ones with a rather static kind of warfare.
Of course, such strategy will work far better once you get the stronger Thureophoroi - the Thorakitai.
I don't think you can compare them, their tasks in your army are too different. It would be suicidal to try to hold a line against cavalry with Peltastai and it would be a waste to send Thureophoroi around your enemies' flanks to have them throw their javelins in the enemies' backs.
Thureophoroi are better in defense or when attacking settlements while attacking on open fields.
If I had to choose one I would take the Peltastai though, they're better against Phalanges, the main enemy of my cavalry based armies (I'm always relying heavily on my cavalry, even when playing with the Romans or the KH).
BTW, why does my spell check know the word "Thureophoroi"? lol
Why? If you send them in to flank an already engaged enemy, they don't kill them any quicker than peltastai or thureophoroi, and they drop like flies to missile fire. When arrows/javelins/slings hit units of peltastai and thureophoroi, they barely take damage, unless the missiles are coming from behind. Hit those Thracians with any form of missiles from the front, flank or rear and they lose 10-30 men a volley.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
I'll go with Peltastai. Cheaper, more easily accesible and tons of missiles, and very fast and mobile.
Although Thracians look so cool, i will give them that.
I use them both... all three respectively if you count in Thorakitai as well. Each unit has its specialisation: Peltastai in my armies usually harass the main infantry line with their javelins, then when the main infantry lines engaged each other, they dispose of enemy skirmishers and missile troops, then come back for the final showdown, charging the flanks and if possible back of the enemy infantry line. Peltastai are supreme allround units.
Thureophoroi are less of an allrounder or anti-skirmisher-unit than more of a superspecialised flanker. They are the perfect flanking unit: Javelins soften up enemy lines and weaken enemy morale; they are fast enough to be able to quickly engage or disengage and to outflank the main enemy infantry line; their armour is light enough so they are able to react quickly and to strike swift but still good enough to survive longer melee fights.
Thorakitai are heavy infantry ideal for heavy flanking (meaning: winning the fight agianst enemy (lighter) flanking units plus protecting your main line's flanks plus chopping up the enemy's main infantry line from the flanks) and due to their heavy armour even suited as main line infantry, able to hold the line against most heavy infantry. Their main line duties are less important or valuable against pike phalanx armies since they are able to hold the line against phalanxes but not capable of effectively defeating them head on. They are however a valuable heavy line infantry against more flexible armies like the ones in Italy or Gaul.
So each of the three units has its use. However, the Peltastai are inargueably the best allrounder of the three, especially in early game confrontations. As more elite and heavy armies become the standard, Peltastai get a bit less useful as they are no match against heavier infantry. It depends on the enemy, though. Eastern armies tend to have more light infantry so Peltastai do the job quite well against them (in my Baktrian campaigns I rarely use Thureophoroi, I use Peltastai for the most time and later on switch directly to Thorakitai as main line infantry).
It depends on the peltastai too. Peltastai Makedonikoi, for example, is absurdly powerful. Even if a bit too expensive.
Peltastai Makedonikoi are Peltastai only by name. They are elite shock infantry and thus their battlefield function differs quite heavily from that of the actual Peltastai.
I use only peltastai and thorakitai, almost never train tureophoroi..... It was simply a distraction, the Peltastai are good as flexible fighter - skirmishers, and when they grow outdated, I just found my cities was allready capable to pump up thorakitai........ I use thureophoroi only in skirmish battle....
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u..._peltastai.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Dayve
I use these guys, Akonastai, and Thorakitai. Peltastai are alright and make good flankers but they aren't optimal IMHO. Akonastai have 80 more men and are expendable. I usually sit them behind my main line and watch all 1000+ missiles hit the enemy. I don't really like thureophoroi because there are better things to flank or hold a line. They don't do anything all that great so I don't use them... ever.
Now the Thracians are only $200 more than a Peltastai, have the same armor as Thureophoroi with 1 less shield. They have more javelins than the Thureophoroi. While their attack rating is low compared to others, I believe their sword has stupid amounts of lethality and maybe AP.
They are the originals in the Hellenic world and very few skirmishers beat them. I mean... they can beat Triari in 1vs1.
mhyeah, but it would not be funny to spam the best of the best all the time. Find a good combination of Peltastai and Thureophoroi in your army. 1 fullstack like this makes a good KH main army.
1 x General
2 x Hoplitai
2 x Hoplitai Haploi
(later armies take 4 x Phalangitai instead of the Hoplitai and H. Haploi)
2 x Thureophoroi
2 x Peltastai
1 x Thrakioi Peltastai
1 x General
3 x Akontistai
1 x Sphedonetai
1 x Toxotai Kretikoi
2 x Hippakontistai
2 x Hippeis
i for myself prefer thureophoroi. but only because of prefering akonkistai instead of peltastai.
main advantage (pelts) is the ap-sword, but i hire "real" swordunits like galatians, boii cingetos or galathrakais for this job.
thureophoroi are flexible and relativly cheap and do a good job.
I think it really depends on your enemy.:book:
Enemies like the western european empires and the nomad tribes are really vulnerable against javelines and prefer a fluent combat strategy, so I would tend to the faster peltastai and they kick asses in forests. Akontistai or the eastern conterpart ae usefull sometime but they just suck in close combat.
Against the seleuks, makedons and Koinon Hellenon I wouldnt use them caus phalanx`s can only be beaten in close combat. So flank them and attack with Thurepoi seems the better solution to me.
I never use Thorakitai cause their stamina is to low to be really effective and except for the really heavy seleukid ones their stats aren`t that superior to Thureporoi. :thumbsdown:
I never uses the Thoraks a-s-monkey talks about so I cant judge them.
The makedoni peltastai are strong, but unnessescary.
If I remember correctly, they were formerly called "pheraspidai", I wonder why they have been renamend "peltastai makedonikoi" even if they aren't peltastai.Quote:
Originally Posted by machinor
I use these guys in melee as much at ranged, they are an excellent melee unit and can go toe to toe with alot of melee only units, I know they have AP, Idk about lethality bonus, but they are extremely good skirmishers.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
Yeah they have AP and a nasty lethality, i use them to kill cavalry with as well, use a light cavalry unit to pin them and then rush in the thrakians to engage in the melee they will make short work out of most horses, even hetaroi!
Peltastai: Walls, flanking against phalanx, "park" behind enemy line and deplete javelins in their rear.
Thureophoroi: Flanking against anything, especially when "parking" is not an option (cavalry present or want to achieve a very fast rout of enemy main line); so if there is only going to be one volley from the rear it might as well be the heavier thureophoroi javelins (attack: 7). Good charge effect, too.
Thorakitai: IMHO useless - not enough stamina for effective flanking manoeuvres and hoplitai are better suited for main line duties (less expensive, need only MIC lvl3, roughly the same defense).
My basic full stack army looks roughly like this (with adaptations made according to what I'm up against and what options for reinforcements are available):
1-2 x general; center or right flank
(if only 1 general, I send an additional unit of hoplitai, preferrably epilektoi/spartiatai if already available OR a unit of thorakitai hoplitai along, depending on whether the army is pre- or post- Iphikrates)
4x hoplitai or hoplitai iphikratides; main line
4x thureophoroi or peltastai; flankers and screeners
4x sphendonetai; long distance missile and occasionally even flankers
2x hippeis xystophoroi or prodromoi; flankers and rear-chargers
2x hetairoi aspidophoroi or hippakontistai; taunters, anti-missile and rout-butchers
This leaves 2 slots for mercenaries picked up for better role-playing and special tasks (tindanotae...)
I use akontistai only for garrison purposes (I value the lives of my loyal subjects and sending akontistai into a field battle with an even only relatively balanced army implies throwing at least half of them away).
Damn, I feel old-school for actually using the units for their in-game described purposes. Whenever I played as a Hellenic faction, and especially when I played as KH, I would have a lineup much like this:
5 units of Classical Hoplite (if KH) or 7 units levy/medium phalanx (if other Hellenic) in the center of my line. 1 or 2 units of elites like Spartans or Epiletktoi for the KH or Argyaspides/equivalent for the other Hellenes may be allowed in place of some regulars if its an "elite" army.
5 units of Thorakitai, used to guard the inner sides of my flanks, with one in reserve
5 units of Thureophoroi, used to guard the outer flanks of the line, with 3 typically being kept in reserve
5 units of "other", depending on situation. This includes peltasts
Thureophoroi are wonderfully cost-effective line holders, and when paired with thorakitai make for a lovely one-two punch. Guard mode is a must for the main line, but then I've never had my units turn sideways in EB unless they were in a city.
In the early game I usually feature more peltasts as I'm still pinching pennies and they serve as an effective flanker/light battle line unit. Generally avoid the Thraikians mainly because Peltasts have a much vaster recruitment range and as far as I"m concerned, a peltast is a peltast. Sorry, Thraikian lovers, but I have watched many a Thraikian get mowed over by cavalry charges and extended melee (both my side and enemy).
In general, I used the in-game descriptions + upkeep cost to determine my usage of them + just how useful I should expect them to be. You'll note that levy phalanxes, Thureophoroi, and classical hoplites all have a very similar cost, which tells me that as long as I use them properly (presumably using in-game description) then I should get roughly the same "worth" out of each. And amazingly, this is true. You'll also note that Thorakitai and medium phalanxes also are priced similarly and I would also argue that used properly you get equal worth out of each.
Heck, before the Ekdromoi had their fast moving removed I fielded KH armies completely lacking in cavalry (and sometimes archers) and was consistently winning as the Ekdromoi were superb at beating up cav, light infantry, and missile units when necessary. Of course, once I expanded to where more open warfare took place I added cavalry.
?Quote:
Originally Posted by LordCurlyton
LordCurlyton, are you implying that my army-loadout be not historically accurate...?
:clown:
Why has no one mentioned Agrianians? Those guys are probably the best skirmishers in the Hellenic world.
They are basically better versions of the Thracians.
Skirmishers? I think they're more of a (light) shock infantry. I like 'em a lot, though.
Balearic Slingers :P
In game terms, as my most obliging enemy are the heavily-armoured Romani, these slingers (and perhaps some agile Iberi Caetrati—or indeed any troops able to throw a soliferum or three) are of far greater worth than any javelineers of the Hellenes, whose weapons tend to bounce harmlessly off Roman armour (or even shields, in the case of tramping Thureophoroi).
...now, if only the weapons of the Iberian Velities were as reliable as those of the Caetrati!
:-P Well I would say you have a few too many slingers....and I wasn't saying anything about historical accuracy, mind you. Just in-game descriptions. Thureophroi are described as a lighter-end medium infantry unit used to hold the battle line against lesser opponents or flank pike phalanxes, hit them with their not-inconsiderable amount of javelins, then bum-rush them. Used in that capacity, they perform exactly as advertised. I preferred classical for my KH center mainly because they are more widely available, thus my army would have an easier time campaigning outside of Hellas proper. Thorakitai, described as heavier version of Thureophoroi, paired with them to be used in tandem. Excellent line troops they are. Again, I follow the in-game description, I get good results. For the record, I find Thorakitai better than Classical when you head west and start going toe-to-toe with Celts and Romans, vice versa when heading east as I find Classicals can take a cav charge slightly better. Neither of them are too happy under sustained missile fire though. Peltasts, described as heavy skirmishers/light battle line elements. Again, used as such, get good results. If I don't have access to Celtic or Eastern levies yet I tend to keep more Peltasts around to inflict skirmishing damage and/or soak up fire. Once I have access to the levies my armies tend to start to include 2 units Celt/Eastern Archers + 2 units Celt/Eastern Slingers. I find archers to be very efficient against the lighter forces, more so than slingers, and the slings can seriously hurt an armored foe silly enough to not face them where they can get all their bonuses. I try to avoid the IMO gamey "park your slingers behind their lines" tactic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachtmeister
Your army makeup otherwise seems fine and balanced generally. Personally I have nothing against Akontistai, since if you leave them in loose and skirmish you can generally convince the AI to charge them with cav, which yields much butchering of cavalry. Even better if they get so irked by the pesky javelin throwing that they charge their whole line towards them.
BWWAAAAA---HAAAAA---HAAAAAR :smash: :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by LordCurlyton
Beautiful phrasing, that. "C'm on, AI, pleeeease? Do it for daddy..."
I suppose I could replace the slingers with something else - but that would make my army even more powerful! Maybe a mix of G. kluddolon and Archers. However, for low-level wood wall siege battles, you definitely want to use at least four units of slingers. Otherwise it's just not fair against AS (me attacks with h. haploi because nothing else is available yet, me finds a phalanx blocking the gate, another and another and some more in reserve to block extra holes in wall, me goes game over or kills them with small, fluffy rocks - when in reality the greeks would have switched to anal mode and simply built very very big artillery from what was currently oxidising in the surrounding landscape and banged the phalangites with even bigger stones than I do).
Who ever said FAIR? There is a reason sarissa pike phalanxes ended up the victor, after all. If you hate having to charge in to pointy death with crappy, expendable h. haploi then consider the tried and true "starve 'em out" method. If you can fend off whatever field army they send your way you make them come to you. And if they have THAT many phalanxes and you have...levy hoplite, what are you doing thinking you deserve a fair fight? Plus, how are you killing the phalanxes with slingers when they are in the town? They all conveniently present their backsides to you?
You are correct. The meaning of peltast is changed over time: it was originally used to denote akontistai, but around the Peloponnesian war it came to indicate better-equipped, professional skirmishers, like the peltasts of EB. The term then disappears from the sources for a while (Alexander used Agrianoi and Thracians; they are not called peltasts by contemporary sources). By EB's time-frame the term peltast was used for Hellenic bodyguard infantry or assault corpses, which are represented in the mod by the peltastai Makedonikoi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connacht
No-one saind fair... Wait a moment, did I say fair...?! Zeus, I said fair!!Quote:
Originally Posted by LordCurlyton
However, the term "fair" is determined afterwards by whoever killed everyone who did not consent to their view of how events took place, right? So as long as I am winning my battles, it should be allright...
But seriously, I probably *am* going to adapt my army loadout according to what you said. As soon as I can afford it. Until then, I will just roleplay that the greeks paid so much tribute while under the rule of the now-crushed Makedonians that they even had to sell their private-owned arms (and what the phrouria contain is what h. haploi get - conscripts' equipment) and now need to get the money to acquire new ones by conquest. Hence also the many sphendonetai. :juggle2:
Plus, they actually *do* if asked nicely - fire at them from at least a slight angle. From their right so as to get past the shield. Try it once for fun. The whole garrison starts running around mindlessly as soon as you open fire with slingers. RTW.exe has funny quirks.
Meh, I prefer it when the AI tries to relieve the town with a 1-unit stack. Just friggin' sally forth instead but NOOOO they need the confidence boost one measly unit brings them (and its usually a crap unit too).
Thureophoroi and Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai are probably my fave infantry in the game. I have done amazing things with these units. I would gladly pay up to 50/100 more per turn for them.
Yes, I knew we had forgotten something there... Keltohellenikoi hoplitai are great for any battles where they don't have to hold the line for too long. I use them more as main line infantry though when compared to thureophoroi - they *feel* a bit slower and their formation "behaves" more like that of the h. iphikratides - however with the speed of thorakitai hoplitai.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegeek2
So alltogether, they are a bit sluggish, but they definitely hold a line for a while and they positively rule against any lighter infantry without falxes. Besides, they make for great role-playing elements in armies.
If you really think these guys are good, you really gotta try balearic slingers. Seriously man, for guys that just throw rocks, they cause some nasty casualties.Quote:
sphendonetai.
One of my favorite missiles troops, but i still prefer Cretan or Syrian archers.
Using the units to the best of their advantages are a must, and can become very valuable.
For example:
Akonistai: I love these guys, and they're very important in the early game. They carry a good number of javelins and have fairly good stamina since they don't have any heavy armor to carry. When they're deployed on hills, their javelins cause massive casualties on enemies below (as all missile units do on elevated surfaces). But when they are used to attack an enemy from behind, they'll send a very large storm of javelins and then flood an enemy afterward, often breaking morale from sheer numbers.
Peltastai: They're very good when it comes to sneaking behind enemy lines, mostly because they stay together better as a unit, so they won't get clotheslined by the enemies they're supposed to be running past. Their survivability is better and can stand up to the task of flanking moderately-armed opponents.
Thureophoroi: I do not tend to use the these units as often as I should. Often my militaries consist of their Thorakitai brethren instead. But the thureophoroi are good flankers that can handle tougher units than the peltastai in hand-to-hand combat. I tend to use them to keep an enemy busy for the critical seconds I need in order to prepare a cavalry charge or outflank them with another javelin-armed unit. Still, these are valuable units, and can hold a line for a fair amount of time when traditional line-infantry are scarce in an area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningEGO
Yes, that is very very true. Still, playing KH you have no immediate access to the baleares; better go with rhodian slingers until the campaign progresses to the western islands, but you also need to decide at the beginning of the game if you want to max MIC or civic structures - or the naval base on Rhodos (both due to looong construction times and high construction costs). I was rather referring to the starting phase of the game. During this, sphendonetai are the best missile unit you can possibly get (other than mercs, but then look at recruitment cost, upkeep, and do a cost-benefit-calculation). So if you are not bent on making the same mistakes the classical greeks made (or you *are* bent on exploiting an inaccuracy in game mechanics maybe), your first battle-winner is a southern --as in not Makedonian-- hammer+anvil, with your general as the anvil, sphendonetai as the distance-hammer, and h. haploi as the shock-cooling water-bucket. The heaviest difference to the Makedonian variant and the thureophoroi-variant is that you must flank the enemy with the anvil while the hammer remains stationary. Yes, akontistai are nice, but you lose several of them in every battle if you deploy them aggressively and even in the above mentioned pattern due to their short range, plus they are the priority target of any archers... Better to employ them against those pesky phalanx-without-support stacks that AS never ceases spamming once you move into Mikra Asia.
Well, i rarely use any troops at all when i play with KH, at the start at least. Since your income is terrible, i usually amass my generals and fight most battles with them. These bodyguards are awesome. Specially the spartiates. And the AI is always smart enough to storm Athens rather fast, giving you some free kills and experience.
WOOOOOT?!Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningEGO
I agree absolutely about the bodyguards, but - Makedonia storming Athenai? In my campaigns it goes like this:
I lay siege to Kydonia, Korinthos and Chalkis in the first turn. In the mean time Makedonia draws its field forces together into a full stack next to Athenai but does nothing.
In the second turn, Chremonides takes Chalkis, Eudamidas takes Korinthos and Areus takes Kydonia; the Makedonians notice that something is smelling funny in Makedonia itself and head up north, out of my territory. So do the KH forces, setting up camp in northern Attike with re-combined forces; any units too badly decimated to be of use in combat go retrain in Athenai.
Third turn => Makedonia comes home and bashes about with Epeiros for a while, even pursuing them into southern Illyria and I set siege to Demetrias.
(...)
By Summer 271BC, Makedonia is no longer a force to be reckoned with - at least not on the western side of the Aegeis (This means I get Pella and they are stuck with the Lesbians in Mytilene).
This is not a fluke; it is recurring standard AI nut-case on my machine, even after several work-related ("I really need to spend less time playing and more time studying") complete disc-wipes and subsequent re-installs ("EB is too strong").
This is what makes me use peltastai a lot more than thureophoroi - by the time I can train thureophoroi, my armies should have already jumped to aid Sinope and eradicated Pontus along with most Seleukid holdings in Mikra Asia. All done with h. haploi, sphendonetai and hippakontistai with peltastai from Sparte serving as elite assault infantry while the FMs hold the h. haploi together and move in wherever the fight gets really nasty or "pin" enemy phalanxes while the peltasts hack them to pieces from behind... Praised be hoplites in "guard"-mode, main battletanks of the iron age (h. haploi would then be IFVs and thureophoroi would, by comparison, resemble an A-10 squadron)...
Well, on VH/VH?
In the first turn i am only able to conquer crete. The AI will always sally forth. Then i go for the Makedonians islands and Korinthos. I am usually able to conquer Korinthos with 4-5 generals afterwards, but only because i am attacked and i beat both armies.
But if i was lucky enough to have avoided the big nasty stack roaming around, the bastards always end up sieging Athens. Last time i played KH i was improving my generals' bodyguard in Athens, and they attacked. Hopefully i managed to burn their ram, and i made short work of all troops that attacked my walls via siege towers. It was a funny battle. 2000 enemies wasted while i only lost a couple of bodyguards. Who after a few turns would be back.
Sadly, i do take more time beating Makedonia in the end. They are usually always roaming around with nasty stacks, which i am only able to beat after i get some extra hoplites (i usually get the speedy ones, cant remember their name).
And while missile troops might be good to cause some extra casualties, i find them terrible when engaging enemies in melee in VH/VH. Specially the most basic of em.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningEGO
No, I play on VH/M. Thinking about getting Darthmod or something, tho - AI does very, very stupid things once I get an army that is actually of roughly equal strength. And of course I never-never use the above mentioned missile troops for melee, except for killing routing enemies or if the AI charges them with a FM so my hoplitai can get there and make short work of them.
Apart from that, my missile troops have the job of taunting the enemy into charging at my lines from a long distance and then waiting until my melee units (by a sort of "manual skirmishing", never fully committing to battle) manage to draw some of the enemy melee units away from the main battle or, even better, manage to get "behind" the enemy line alltogether, making them about-face. Then, they cause considerably more than just a few additional casualties...
I am impressed that you put your generals on wall-fights on VH/VH. Mine sometimes fell off the walls on VH/M. (I mean, VH campaign and M battle). That is why I don't use them for walls anymore, prefer to recruit mercs for that job. Celts with swords. Or h. iphikratides / thorakitai hoplitai.
Actually, the bodyguards got pretty much slaughtered even without wall-drops last time I used them against pezhetairoi... And that was 2 generals on 1 unit of pezhetairoi from both sides on M battle difficulty!
Thats sounds typical for campaign difficulty on medium. But on VH they normally attack everything you have. That's why I prefer to play on M/M. You can call me a coward, but i like it if my Arche is in peace with its neighbours:hippie:. Only one faction deserves no peace...:whip:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachtmeister
Edit: They don't attack Athenai on VH? Thats strange, but possible...Artificial Incompetence.
And about the Question "Thurephoroi or Peltastai?": I prefer Thurephoroi, cause they are able to fight against enemy cavalery. That's a very important ability for a flanking unit, you need no "baby-sitter" for them. Peltastai are better for siegebattles. They have more javelines, that means you can cause more damage to the enemy while they attack the walls, and a sword, which makes them better against enemy infantery.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
I've always been partial to making a very narrow column of javelin units or put my units in a chevron with the javelin units near the 'point' so it concentrates their fire in hilarious fashion.