NAVAL Tactics in Empire:Total War

Hi everyone!

1st game, straight into GrandCamp as U.P. Turn 2 @ war with Spain & France, VH/H.

Before making peace with both I took Alsace from France. Flanders, Guyana, Hispanola from Spain. I've been doing reasonably well in land battles, the new game has definitely been a refreshing challenge. I got stuck on lots on line infantry to deal with the French spam, so I don't have much artillery or any of the advanced troops yet. Was slow in research as well but it's now getting better. Navy wise I hardly won anything at all. I managed to capture a couple of ships, and win a few battles but I lost almost the entire starting U.P Navy.

It seems like a galleon (the largest ship I encountered so far) can take on 4-5 smaller ships with ease and win. In fact a single broadside from a galleon can nearly incapacitate any smaller ship. I've had a lot of success using one or two - three ships at a time, as they are easier to micromanage. If I have a large fleet it gets hard to manage every single ship. I always end up losing a lot more, even if I win, with larger fleets.

• Does anyone have any tips on how to manage the naval engagements?.
• Is it possible to capture the famous ships like "The Flying Dutchman" or any other famous pirates etc ?.
• What are everyone's naval tactics ?.
• Can you set your ships so they only use broadsides when the broadside button is active ?.
• Can you assign keystrokes to control sail, turn, and fire broadside ?.

So I've tried holding a battle line, but this doesn't really work if you have ships of varying speeds which naturally you will. What happens is that the larger, slower ships end up getting rammed by the faster ships. So you have to spit the "line" into smaller lines which again presents you with the same issue.

Any other general tips welcome too. Thanks.

:2thumbsup:

Grouping your ships is a MUST. Select all your ships and then use the G button to group them. You can then bring up the formations button, I like to use the Vertical line myself.

When you have your ships grouped in this way and you select them all, they will move as a group. And the line formation allows your ships to play "follow the leader" with the lead ship. It adds a bit of coherency to the otherwise jumble that is naval battles. :yes:

I must be doing something wrong because when I group them, and select line formation, the faster ships get in the back of the line. Will try it again, and see if I can get the faster ships in front. That should work better.

You should be able to capture The Flying Dutchman.

I can't anymore though. :no:

https://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1053/pirates.jpg

I haven't seen any famous pirate ships so far. Although The Flying Dutchman wasn't a pirate ship, but a legendary Ghost Ship. Which would make fighting it rather tricky.

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Originally Posted by Sir Beane

I haven't seen any famous pirate ships so far. Although The Flying Dutchman wasn't a pirate ship, but a legendary Ghost Ship. Which would make fighting it rather tricky.

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I have! I saw the Flying Dutchman, it was raiding 13 Colonies ports. I fought it but the game CTD'd so I couldnt capture it. It was faster than a normal ship, I'm sure of it.

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

I have! I saw the Flying Dutchman, it was raiding 13 Colonies ports. I fought it but the game CTD'd so I couldnt capture it. It was faster than a normal ship, I'm sure of it.

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Awesome! Perhaps it turns up occasionally to cause trouble and is too fast to catch? That would fit quite well with the legends of it being a ghost ship crewed by men who were forsaken by God.

I too have found the Galleons hard to beat. They have the guns of a 4th rate Ship of the line and more men. I am at war with the spanish and while I have taken a couple of proviences from them(flanders, Hispaniola and Andalusia). My navy can not leave port, since he has a fleet of 5 Galleons and 1 4th Rate SOL. I have tried fighting them with 4- 4th Rate SOL, 1- 5th Rate SOL and 2- 6th Rate SOL and lose, every time.

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

I have! I saw the Flying Dutchman, it was raiding 13 Colonies ports. I fought it but the game CTD'd so I couldnt capture it. It was faster than a normal ship, I'm sure of it.

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I can't decide if you're being serious or not. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Sinan

Hi everyone!

• Does anyone have any tips on how to manage the naval engagements?.
• Is it possible to capture the famous ships like "The Flying Dutchman" or any other famous pirates etc ?.
• What are everyone's naval tactics ?.
• Can you set your ships so they only use broadsides when the broadside button is active ?.
• Can you assign keystrokes to control sail, turn, and fire broadside ?.

So I've tried holding a battle line, but this doesn't really work if you have ships of varying speeds which naturally you will. What happens is that the larger, slower ships end up getting rammed by the faster ships. So you have to spit the "line" into smaller lines which again presents you with the same issue.

Any other general tips welcome too. Thanks.

:2thumbsup:

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I captured the Flying Dutchman. Was an autoresolve though.

I finally had a reasonable naval engagement, after much floundering (literally... wait, no, that would be "foundering!") about. At first I couldn't figure out how to steer even. Too much habit with all the other naval RPG type games where the arrow keys control the rudder.

I went after 3 pirate ships with 6 of my own with a decent admiral. The pirate admiral was good too, which I knew meant trouble (and I was right.) I organized two colums of 3 ships each, had a sloop leading, then my 5th or 6th rate, then a trailing sloop or brig. I grouped the two columns separately. I space the ships out about 5-10 lengths apart and the two columns about twice that apart. I steered them so the incoming pirates would pass between, but the pirates did their best to avoid that crossfire.

I was just shooting round, which I now know is less than ideal, but it's a learning thing. The pirates tried to cross my downwind column's T by turning downwind, so I arcs both columns downwin also. He managed to force partly separate meetings that way (smart AI move!) since it threw them out of synch.

Steering the colums is pretty easy as long as you select the group. not one ship. They held station pretty well until things got messy (which I bet I could have mostly prevented with chain shot to stop the pirates cold.)

My left column swung in broadside to broadside pretty much and lots of round was exchanged. My right column finally caught up and got a bit of rake fire up the rear of the line. But everything went crazy at that point. I think sails may be automatically lowered once in close contact, because I had ships stopping on their own. Once I figured out what was happening, click-moving single ships to rake individual pirates worked well. My admiral boarded one, since it was that close, the trailing pirate was so beat up from the rakes it surrendered. The last was running away when it ran up the while flag also.

It was a close victory only, but I was happy it resembled semi-competent sailing after my earlier attempts! The battle report said I captured two ships, but none were present on the rearrange screen at the end. I think what someone else noted may have been the case... I wasn't close to two of the surrendered ships when I accepted the first result. Not sure why I didn't get the option on the boarded ship though, it was grappled to my Admiral's flagship.

You can turn off fire at will. That means you control the shooting. In smaller engagements that may make a significant difference if you have a plan and execute. Lashing a single ship with all the fire from yours to disable it would take it out of the fight in one pass... at least in a battle like mine above. That was my aim, but my execution was still poor. And should have used chain.

I don't know about assigning keystrokes. The keys by default control only the camera. I did find that very annoying and non-intuitive. I was paused mid-battle in my first fiasco rereading the manual pages trying to figure out how to manuever when nothing I did seemed to steer the damned ships!

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Does anyone have any tips on how to manage the naval engagements?.

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Cross the T. A lot.

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Is it possible to capture the famous ships like "The Flying Dutchman" or any other famous pirates etc ?.

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It's possible to capture any ship should you do it, I believe ship named are randomized, so you'll be doing some looking around before you get the Dutchman.

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What are everyone's naval tactics ?.

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Perfect the art of the line of battle. Assign your flagship, or the ship with the most guns, to broadsides exclusively.

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Can you set your ships so they only use broadsides when the broadside button is active ?.

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I don't understand this question. To fire a broadside, the broadside buttong must be clicked and the cannons must be loaded. If they are not, the AI does it for you, and the broadside button will turn red when your ship is ready to fire a broadside.

Welcome back, Sinan! Been a while since I've seen you 'round. :balloon:

The names are probably randomized, but I saw a Pirate Flying Dutchman with UP in turn 1 as part of the three ship pirate fleet in the Caribbean. Just select you four ship fleet int he era on sail east, it's about halfway between your colony and the pirate colony of Trinidad (If I remember the names right, it was the southern of the two pirate colonies).

EDIT:
As far as I could tell it was just a regular Brig.

http://screenshot.xfire.com/screensh...47f4169590.png

A(THE?) Dutchman is... Dutch now! :laugh4:

I always had trouble boarding and capturing any ship. Does grapeshot and destroying their rigging help at all? I was thinking of leaving the one ship I wanted to capture alone while I destroy the others, then disable her sails, and go in close for grapeshot broadsides.

Yep, grapeshot helps a lot, since it takes away crew, and you need to dismast them to take them down.

Chain shot works on the rigging! Transom shots destroy morale very well ( crossing the T from the rear of the ship) Grape shot takes out the crew without doing too much damage to the hull but is not quick. It just does not seem all that effective from the times I have used it. It could be better!

Enemy ships will continue to fire into the ship that boards them so make sure it is a strong ship that tries it.

The big problem with naval engagements early on, and I think why a lot of people are having trouble, is that your initial ships are seriously wimpy compared to some of the pirates and starter fleets from some nations -- a 5th rate or 4th rate will eat sloops for breakfast and then :furious3: out the results, put that in a cannon and sink a brig with it; The galleys are likely a bug, those things can destroy sloops as brigs as well.

Early naval success depends more on numbers than tactics.

Line formation is the key, also before the battle starts consider the wind direction and how you're going to stay on the right side of it. I know that you can sail up wind slowly, but if you can help it don't, i find it really knocks the wind out of your sails (boom boom) during an attack.

i found the best tactics for capturing ship are:

1. give them a bit of a pounding intially, put the frightners up the crew
2. (you could derig them, i 've not bothered much, well a bit, most of the time it's more of step 3)
2. Grape shot them, i know you get hit by their broadsides but after a while there's not enough men to fire them quickly anyway
3. see above
4. by now they have either surended already or PREPARE TO BOARD

oh and when you attack try to hit their fleet so you're sailing across the wind not with it, so that when you double back you are still sailing across the wind and not directly into it.

Before I start I'm not saying I've been hugely successful but I do win more than I lose.

I'm playing as GB and I tend to form a line with all my ships grouped. The first naval engagement GB are involved in is against pirates off of Jamaica, they have 1 Fluyt, 1 Brig and 1 Sloop, so if you pool your Carribean and Atlantic fleets you will outnumber them, but that Fluyt is a bugger to kill with your 5th and 6th raters.

Once I start I sail towards them before turning into the wind a couple of points to ensure I have the windward when I come round again, my first salvo is chain and the theory is that if I can dismast a couple of their ships I can sail rings round them and cross the T at my leisure. I tend to keep my distance and keep pounding them with chain until I am happy that I am much quicker and more agile, any of my ships taking too much damage get sent of of the way.

Once I have dismasted them their morale drops quite a lot, no shock there, and I pound them with grape, I tend to leave a ship off their stern and one off their bow broadsiding them, as they can only reply with 1 or 2 cannons from that direction, until they surrender.

If also found that one or two changes of direction can leave them tangled in a large group and easy picking.

For one ship against 3 or 4 I run with the wind tacking to bring each flank into range and if you have been lucky with the chain they wont be able to tack and keep up with you so you will be pretty much free to shoot to your hearts consent.

Next time I'm going to try continueing the battle after they surrender as someone has suggested that you get more captures that way.

After reading this thread and trying another couple of naval engagements, I'm still lost at sea.

A recent example: my 5th rate and sloop vs. 2 brigs and a sloop. I suspect I'm going to lose, but don't anticipate the frustration involved. They have the wind. I try to cross the T well in advance, and just about make it. Chain shot damages their rigging somewhat. And yet they're still going faster than me. I'm now going with the wind, chasing after them. They then proceed to circle around me, peppering me with cannon shot, while my ships flounder about uselessly. They seem to be able to sail into the wind at fair speed, while I can't make much headway - and yet, visually at least, their rigging is damaged more than mine.

It's probably my ineptitude, but I can't help feeling they have a speed advantage that negates my attempts to bring guns to bear on them. Are brigs just faster than either sloops or fifth rates? Am I just an idiot?

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Originally Posted by foop

After reading this thread and trying another couple of naval engagements, I'm still lost at sea.

A recent example: my 5th rate and sloop vs. 2 brigs and a sloop. I suspect I'm going to lose, but don't anticipate the frustration involved. They have the wind. I try to cross the T well in advance, and just about make it. Chain shot damages their rigging somewhat. And yet they're still going faster than me. I'm now going with the wind, chasing after them. They then proceed to circle around me, peppering me with cannon shot, while my ships flounder about uselessly. They seem to be able to sail into the wind at fair speed, while I can't make much headway - and yet, visually at least, their rigging is damaged more than mine.

It's probably my ineptitude, but I can't help feeling they have a speed advantage that negates my attempts to bring guns to bear on them. Are brigs just faster than either sloops or fifth rates? Am I just an idiot?

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Brigs and sloops are as fast as each other, and both are faster than a a Fifth Rate. I'd suggest not even attempting to use chain shot and just sticking with cannonballs. The effect of wind isnt strong ebnough for chain shot to be useful.

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Originally Posted by foop

After reading this thread and trying another couple of naval engagements, I'm still lost at sea.

A recent example: my 5th rate and sloop vs. 2 brigs and a sloop. I suspect I'm going to lose, but don't anticipate the frustration involved. They have the wind. I try to cross the T well in advance, and just about make it. Chain shot damages their rigging somewhat. And yet they're still going faster than me. I'm now going with the wind, chasing after them. They then proceed to circle around me, peppering me with cannon shot, while my ships flounder about uselessly. They seem to be able to sail into the wind at fair speed, while I can't make much headway - and yet, visually at least, their rigging is damaged more than mine.

It's probably my ineptitude, but I can't help feeling they have a speed advantage that negates my attempts to bring guns to bear on them. Are brigs just faster than either sloops or fifth rates? Am I just an idiot?

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I've notice that when you do course correction by clicking on the water(setting a way point), the sail are automatically set to 3/4. To go faster you need to re-order full sail every-time you do course correction with the ']' key or clicking on the interface. Also you can't control sail setting of a group, only for individual ship.

I think that if you use the arrow on the interface the sail setting don't change (i'll need to try this one to be sure)

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Originally Posted by melvish

I've notice that when you do course correction by clicking on the water(setting a way point), the sail are automatically set to 3/4. To go faster you need to re-order full sail every-time you do course correction with the ']' key or clicking on the interface. Also you can't control sail setting of a group, only for individual ship.

I think that if you use the arrow on the interface the sail setting don't change (i'll need to try this one to be sure)

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You can also double-click for maximum speed. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Sinan

[*]What are everyone's naval tactics ?.

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As far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be anything tactical about naval battles in this game. They're a complete balls-up to be frank.

I'm having quite a bit of success by using the wind to stay ahead of the enemy. That way, I can cross their T at any given moment, and can also easily disengage if isn't turning out well.

It only works well in smaller fleets, because the last ships in the line will get pummeled.

Getting an Admiral is a MUST. There is a massive statistical increase in the firepower of your ships when well lead.
eg. I had a sloop go from 84 (unlead) to 306 firepower (lead by basic 3 star admiral)

That kind of a change may be why so many people are having trouble with being decimated by enemy fleets.


Note: These Statistical bonuses are not listed until you enter the battle map proper. (Same thing goes for experience) possible bug?)

Edit: There seems to be a naval unit card stat difference between the campaign map and the battle map and it has nothing to do with the admiralty.

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Originally Posted by Sir Beane

Brigs and sloops are as fast as each other, and both are faster than a a Fifth Rate. I'd suggest not even attempting to use chain shot and just sticking with cannonballs. The effect of wind isnt strong ebnough for chain shot to be useful.

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Not true, a couple of good hits with chain will leave your enemy literally dead in the water, unable to move or even turn.

I replayed the first battle with GB last night again as I restarted on a harder difficulty and after a few passes I had all 3 pirate vessels dismasted, then I just sat one of my ships off their bow and blasted away with grape till they surrendered.

Didn't lose any ships and captured 3 of theirs, good result in my book and it also means the reapir costs are lower.

That being said I tried the same against the Barbary coast where they had lots of little 4 cannon galleys, now I don't know what size of cannons those things hold but they tore through my hulls on 2 fifth rate and a fourth rate in no time, next time I'm just going to sink the little buggers.

Galleys are cheap and nasty. The best thing to do is to sink the quick. They have powerful cannon even in the 2 gun version and are much too fast under oars. They are also hard to hit. Try not to get in front of them. Don’t cross their T. That is where they are most dangerous.

The 5th Rates and 6th Rates should be the fasted ships in the game. For what ever reason they have made the smaller ships really fast.

Well, after reading some more of the advice in this thread I'm now at the stage where I can beat an equal enemy in two attempts - the first one halving the number of cannon on their ships, the second one (with fresh ships) actually sinking or capturing them. I seem to have some sort of mental block about naval combat.

I don't suppose anyone's FRAPsed a good naval battle and put it online anywhere, have they?

My history teacher is probably spinning in his grave. He spent hours handing out photocopied sheets of naval formations and explaining Nelson's victories in Egypt and elsewhere. Obviously none of it sunk in.

If you are using chain shot, it will be more effective if the enemy ship sails are deployed.

I think it is quite rare to actually manage to hit the masts, but the chain shot will still rip holes in their sails if they are unfurled. I once caused a brig to be "demasted" even though all the masts were still there. It was completely dead in the water :2thumbsup:

The best way to get the enemy ships to unfurl their sails is to get them to pursue you with the wind.

I believe it is quite possible to defeat vastly superior naval forces using this tactic, while taking few or no losses, and capturing prizes in perfect condition(getting more gold). Simply:

1. Maneuver into the leeward position (meaning facing the pointy arrow) and get them to chase you.
2. Turn your ship 90 degrees to take pot shots at them with chain shot, alternating between broadsides. The fastest (weakest) enemies will approach first but will fall behind as they take sail damage. If you are lucky you may only face a single ship at a time, since fleets tend to move in a line ahead formation.
3. Since you are leeward, you have the advantage in maneuver as you can turn and fire as you please while the opposing ships cannot if they hope to catch you. And since you are using chain shot, their position steadily grows worse and worse.
4. Eventually, all enemy ships will be dead in the water and the battlefield is yours! Those who have not surrendered or routed can be easily persuaded to do so by doubling back and letting them have a whiff of grapeshot :laugh4:

Presumably this tactic will have little effect on galleys with their rowing and their powerful foreguns, and most military ships have at least a few chaser guns which puts an upper limit on the infinite hordes you can fight.

A caveat though, I've only tried this tactic in small fleet engagements. I imagine if your fleet is large it will be a micro nightmare. In addition, you need some patience as this is a kind of death by a thousand mosquito bites kind of strategy, especially if you are weaker, though I don't see why a superior force shouldn't use it to limit losses and maximise prizes won. I also think a human won't easily fall for this tactic. He would just toss the chainshot back at you!

I came up with this strategy when playing this obscure sim called Tides of War. Anyone heard of it? Me and my puny boat had to fight hordes of enemies who could sink me with a single broadside.:sweatdrop:

Hope this helps anyone caught in desperate situations :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by foop

Well, after reading some more of the advice in this thread I'm now at the stage where I can beat an equal enemy in two attempts - the first one halving the number of cannon on their ships, the second one (with fresh ships) actually sinking or capturing them. I seem to have some sort of mental block about naval combat.

I don't suppose anyone's FRAPsed a good naval battle and put it online anywhere, have they?

My history teacher is probably spinning in his grave. He spent hours handing out photocopied sheets of naval formations and explaining Nelson's victories in Egypt and elsewhere. Obviously none of it sunk in.

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The limitations in the naval battles for me are that some maneuvers are lacking and ships have a bit of trouble changing from one formation to another.

But for some one who has never played a naval sailing game it would be much more difficult.

In time you will learn. Keep the wind with you and your speed above the enemy’s. If you are fighting two engagements then use a few shots with chain to slow him down and then pound his ships while trying to keep clear of his guns.

The game seems to handle gunnery better than the player so fire at will is usually best in this game.

Have fun!

:laugh4: