Indian Guild Infantry

I was curious if anyone could give me the name of the sword-axe they used? I checked around on wikipedia but couldn't find it nore did google search come up with anything useful.

I wuv those guys.

Might be one of these. This might interest you as well.

impressive list of weapons, didn't even know a few of them. hell, even Xenas quoit is an Indian weapon. :dizzy2:

The closest thing to a straight sword I found on wiki was the double edged Khanda. :-\ No sword axe yet. I can't recall seeing a comparable weapon like that in western history. Infact the only think like it I've seen outside of EB are the Orc swords from LoTR.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

The closest thing to a straight sword I found on wiki was the double edged Khanda. :-\ No sword axe yet. I can't recall seeing a comparable weapon like that in western history. Infact the only think like it I've seen outside of EB are the Orc swords from LoTR.

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looks like an Aruval TBH. says its sturdy enough to chop coconuts in the wikipedia aricle. perhaps thats the weapon? you can try to find a picture.:yes:

EDIT: nvermind. too sickle like:

http://www.google.com/url?source=img...bTyyUBCK1WU9LA

it's rena's box cutter >_> *hauuuu*

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it's rena's box cutter >_> *hauuuu*

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Awesome, we'll also need nailremover in EB.

WTF? Higurashi on the EB forums? :dizzy2:

bingo:
https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/...ngkoreazm5.jpg
Called the Kora.

More exaggerated ones here:
http://www.gnwtc.com/swordsip2.htm

According to this article, however http://www.eknifestore.com/most_inti...ade_ever.shtml, it is a 10th century invention, which is quite a bit after EB ends. Dunno the validity of it though.

The Kukri is a nice knife though.

A bit of topic, but could someone point me to some good books regarding the Indian warrior guilds? I have completely no knowledge on that subject and it seems rather interesting.

I'm glad you started this thread. When I was researching a bit to try to help you find it, I discovered that Indians had the strongest steel in ancient times with weapons even stronger than Japanese katanas. Interesting. Everybody imported the stuff from them, Greek, Romans, you name it.

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Originally Posted by Africanvs

I'm glad you started this thread. When I was researching a bit to try to help you find it, I discovered that Indians had the strongest steel in ancient times with weapons even stronger than Japanese katanas. Interesting. Everybody imported the stuff from them, Greek, Romans, you name it.

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Heh, that's interesting. Imma look into this. How about you, AP?

Do not get me wrong, I love Wikipedia and I think it is the best place on the Internet to do basic research, but I would not trust it in this case. Supposing that is where you got the idea that Indian steel was the best.

"What is the best" type questions are very difficult to accurately answer. Wikipedia is the last place I would go to for such a complex analysis. I would not even trust other more reliable sites. Seriously, these types of questions are difficult indeed. Everything has its own advantages. Therefore it is hard to tell whether for instance Panzer IV Ausf. J or T-34/76 was better. I would check numrous experts opinions beforehand.

All that aside, I also actually believe that Indian steel was the best. There aren't any other good candidates for the best steel makers during the EB period anyway.

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Originally Posted by AP

All that aside, I also actually believe that Indian steel was the best. There aren't any other good candidates for the best steel makers during the EB period anyway.

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Can you recommend any good books on Indian history, btw? I hear it's a wealth of information; a fountain I've yet to drink from.

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Heh, that's interesting. Imma look into this. How about you, AP?

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Meth, I swear, you do this one more time, I WILL REPORT YOU. Your actions can very well lock this and the other "What If" thread. I only hope the moderators will be kind and hard-working enough to delete your posts instead of just locking the whole thread.


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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

Can you recommend any good books on Indian history, btw? I hear it's a wealth of information; a fountain I've yet to drink from.

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I am certain you are not actually serious. Just more spam and post-beating from you. You will not actually read those books. Oh, and also, why don't you just use Google? Who do I look like to you, a sodding Indian history PhD-holder? :daisy: off.

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Originally Posted by AP

Meth, I swear, you do this one more time, I WILL REPORT YOU. Your actions can very well lock this and the other "What If" thread. I only hope the moderators will be kind and hard-working enough to delete your posts instead of just locking the whole thread.

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:inquisitive: You're the one drifting us off-topic. I was only seeking your opinion on the matter, which, considering I have very little knowledge on Indian history, I would value highly.

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Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah

:inquisitive: You're the one drifting us off-topic. I was only seeking your opinion on the matter, which, considering I have very little knowledge on Indian history, I would value highly.

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Yeah right. You do not give a rat's arse about Indian history. You were spamming and trying to legitimise your previous spam. And how is it that I am the one drifting this thread off topic if you are the one who posts the "I-posted-earlier-than-you" spam? Your first post in both this and the "What If" thread were that type of spam.

Do not play dumb or innocent. Everyone knows you are a spammer.

Take this to the PM guys.

@Africanus. I've aways heard that Japanese metal quality was kinda crap which is one of the reasons why they had to fold their katana material so many times.

Guys.

I thought it was fairly well-known that "India" was a world-leader in metallurgy since way back?

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Do not get me wrong, I love Wikipedia and I think it is the best place on the Internet to do basic research, but I would not trust it in this case. Supposing that is where you got the idea that Indian steel was the best.

"What is the best" type questions are very difficult to accurately answer. Wikipedia is the last place I would go to for such a complex analysis. I would not even trust other more reliable sites. Seriously, these types of questions are difficult indeed. Everything has its own advantages. Therefore it is hard to tell whether for instance Panzer IV Ausf. J or T-34/76 was better. I would check numrous experts opinions beforehand.

All that aside, I also actually believe that Indian steel was the best. There aren't any other good candidates for the best steel makers during the EB period anyway.

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Hey AP. Actually I didn't find the information on Wiki. The part I'm referring to about the strength of the steel is this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Note: Hindus made the best swords in the ancient world, they discovered the process of making Ukku steel, called Damascus steel by the rest of the world (Damas meaning water to the Arabs, because of the watery designs on the blade). These were the best swords in the ancient world, the strongest and the sharpest, sharper even than Japanese katanas. Romans, Greeks, Arabs, Persians, Turks, and Chinese imported it.



The original Damascus steel - the world's first high-carbon steel - was a product of India known as wootz. Wootz is the English for ukku in Kannada and Telugu, meaning steel. Indian steel was used for making swords and armor in Persia and Arabia in ancient times. Ktesias at the court of Persia (5th c BC) mentions two swords made of Indian steel which the Persian king presented him. The pre-Islamic Arab word for sword is 'muhannad' meaning from Hind. So famous were they that the Arabic word for sword was Hindvi - from Hind.

Wootz was produced by carburizing chips of wrought iron in a closed crucible process.

"Wrought iron, wood and carbonaceous matter was placed in a crucible and heated in a current of hot air till the iron became red hot and plastic. It was then allowed to cool very slowly (about 24 hours) until it absorbed a fixed amount of carbon, generally 1.2 to 1.8 per cent," said eminent metallurgist Prof. T.R. Anantharaman, who taught at Banares Hindu University, Varanasi.



"When forged into a blade, the carbides in the steel formed a visible pattern on the surface."

To the sixth century Arab poet Aus b. Hajr the pattern appeared described 'as if it were the trail of small black ants that had trekked over the steel while it was still soft'. In the early 1800s, Europeans tried their hand at reproducing wootz on an industrial scale. Michael Faraday, the great experimenter and son of a blacksmith, tried to duplicate the steel by alloying iron with a variety of metals but failed.



Some scientists were successful in forging wootz but they still were not able to reproduce its characteristics, like the watery mark.

"Scientists believe that some other micro-addition went into it," said Anantharaman.



"That is why the separation of carbide takes place so beautifully and geometrically."

The crucible process could have originated in south India and the finest steel was from the land of Cheras, said K. Rajan, associate professor of archaeology at Tamil University, Thanjavur, who explored a 1st century AD trade centre at Kodumanal near Coimbatore. Rajan's excavations revealed an industrial economy at Kodumanal. Pillar of strength The rustless wonder called the Iron Pillar near the Qutb Minar at Mehrauli in Delhi did not attract the attention of scientists till the second quarter of the 19th century.



The inscription refers to a ruler named Chandra, who had conquered the Vangas and Vahlikas, and the breeze of whose valour still perfumed the southern ocean. "The king who answers the description is none but Samudragupta, the real founder of the Gupta empire," said Prof. T.R. Anantharaman, who has authored The Rustless Wonder. Zinc metallurgy travelled from India to China and from there to Europe. As late as 1735, professional chemists in Europe believed that zinc could not be reduced to metal except in the presence of copper.



The alchemical texts of the mediaeval period show that the tradition was live in India. In 1738, William Champion established the Bristol process to produce metallic zinc in commercial quantities and got a patent for it. Interestingly, the mediaeval alchemical text Rasaratnasamucchaya describes the same process, down to adding 1.5 per cent common salt to the ore. (source: Saladin's sword - By The Week - June 24, 2001 - http://netinfo.hypermart.net/telingsteel.htm).

The entire article is here.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

I am certain you are not actually serious. Just more spam and post-beating from you. You will not actually read those books. Oh, and also, why don't you just use Google? Who do I look like to you, a sodding Indian history PhD-holder? :daisy: off.

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But I will. I just realized that I know at least a little bit about what was going on in most regions of the world during the EB time frame, but the first thing that comes to mind if I think about India is a British colony...

So if anybody has any book recommendations, please help me fill that gap. :beam:

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Take this to the PM guys.

@Africanus. I've aways heard that Japanese metal quality was kinda crap which is one of the reasons why they had to fold their katana material so many times.

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Yeah I don't know. I've never tried too hard to research Japanese weapons before the 8th century A.D. According to wiki the folded-steel process is attributed to a guy named Amakuni who was a sword-smith around 700 A.D.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

I've aways heard that Japanese metal quality was kinda crap which is one of the reasons why they had to fold their katana material so many times.

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The iron ore available to the Japanese was mediocre at best.
The famous folding process being more about evening out the inherent weakness of the material to prevent a particular failure point than creating a super strong sword

Wasn't Iberian steel supposed to be extremely good? maybe not as high quality as Indian but still very good.

Yeah, Iberia is/was loaded with pretty much with tons of ore.

For anyone who is interested, here is a good book simply entitled India: A History, by John Keay. It is a basic survey book; after all, there is no way to cover the entirety of Indian history in one book, let alone one book of approximately 600 pages. However, it does cover all the major topics (albeit in not a lot of depth): ancient settlments in the Indus valley, the Vedas, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Mauryas, the Guptas, "Yavanas" (Macedonias and other Hellenes), the Pandyan Empire, the Persian invasions, the Mughals and other Islamic sultanates, Marathras, the Sikhs, the European fight over the area, the Raj/British India, Gandhi/Satyagraha/the independence movement, Nehru, etc. all the way up to the very recent past. It is a good, if brief, intro to the subcontinent.

India says "OMFG, our steel was the greatest EVAR11!11!one!!"

Japan replies: "F YOU, everbody knows that our steel is 1337!!!"

Damaskus says: "F you all, our steel pwns all of yours"

....

I mean, doesn't this whole "XXX steel was bigger, harder and better than anything else"-debate starting to sound ridiculous? Small phallus complex?

On topic, I must say that the Indian Guild Infantry kicks ass, although I prefer the indian longbowmen as they both got killer bows and AP-swords...

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Originally Posted by Jaertecken

India says "OMFG, our steel was the greatest EVAR11!11!one!!"

Japan replies: "F YOU, everbody knows that our steel is 1337!!!"

Damaskus says: "F you all, our steel pwns all of yours"

....

I mean, doesn't this whole "XXX steel was bigger, harder and better than anything else"-debate starting to sound ridiculous? Small phallus complex?

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Damascus is indian steel. damascus is derived from an arabic word for "watery" (damas)*, referring to the wierd watery patterns on their high quality steel. it was in fact mentioned in the 6th century, as being made in yemen and india, and collectively reffered to as "indian whites" (i.e. indian iron). it wasn't mentioned as being made in damascus until later on..

and if it weren't for this "small p****" deal as you call it, you wouldn't be making a fool of yourself on the computer (as there wouldn't be any).:clown:

*one interpretation. the other is that it is indeed from damascus. both are/were online.

Its really too bad the Indians couldn't get industrialization going before the British took over. Asia didn't really have its game together during that period sadly.

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

Damascus is derived from an arabic word for "watery" (damas), referring to the wierd watery patterns on their high quality steel.

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The Moar You Know!

Seriously, that's awesome.

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Originally Posted by soup_alex

The Moar You Know!

Seriously, that's awesome.

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not really-Its what you get for wasting 2 months of your life researching the lakhmid army:clown:

also, the damascus for the steel is not derived for the damascus the city(as in the steel did not give its name to said city), whish is damashq or dimashq in arabic, supposedly from "dammashqa" meaning: to "make haste" (again, supposedly. take the Arab etymologists with a grain of salt.). the two were different words in arabic, that ended up the same in english (lord knows why). now there is a school of thought that says that the steel is indeed named for damascus, and either one can be correct. i meant to give an alternate interpretation, as honestly, you will see both online..

they have the info on wikipedia, as well as the contemporary accounts, if you want to get it the easy way (I got the hard way). the ones that come to mind mentioning "Indian whites" are 3antarah, the roomiyyat of abu firas, and other poems that I forgot and don't really care for.

Surprising how much you can learn from Arab poetry-and they say we are poorly documented:clown: (let me warn you though, you have to take them with a grain of salt)

and I read from the blue green book, furthur helping. *curse that it is now lost*

EDIT: here is an extreme case of the damas described:



EDIT: it was also produced in damascus as well, where its production did indeed become famous.

also, I forgot: the link up there (the none wikipedia one), provided by AFRICANVS, mentions it (the steel) as well.