Trade, Tradepartners and Traderoutes

Trade is still a feature that causes me to wonder...

I was playing Britain on M/M and by 1746 the situation was as this:
This time I followed the advice of several fellow posters on here and concentrated on the North American continet right from the start. This meant, after destroying the Carribean pirates, I took on the Cherokee nation (destroyed) and the just emerging US (detroyed). 13 colonies were still my protectorate (13 colonies at that point consisting of New England, New York, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland + Kaintuk Territory and Cherokee Territory (which I gave to them hoping that this would boost their income). The 13Cs had one trading port in New York.
I was owning Lower+ Upper Lousiana, Michigan Territory, Algonquian Territory, Carolinas, Virgina and Florida.
I had Commercial ports in Lower Lousinana and Georgia
In addition I had Bahamas, Jamaica, Windward+Leeward Islands + Trinidad&Tobago withwith commercial ports in the first 4.
In Europe I had England (with commercial ports in Newcastle, Bristol, Liverpool and Greenwich), Scotland (cp in Glasgow) and Ireland also with one commercial port.
I had farms, plantations and trade fleets aplenty + some long time trading partners.

Now the following happened - France declared war on the 13Cs - to "protect my protectorate" I joined in the war. A French fleet was blockading New York port, which resulted in ZERO trade between me (Britain) and the 13Cs - strange thing, since we were sharing at least 8 land borders. So, I came to the conclusion that the game recognises only sea trade as trade if the 13Cs are your trading partner, meaning no matter how many land borders you share in North America, trade between Britain and the 13Cs is only taking place between the 13Cs ports and Britains ports. Well, I thought this a strange thing, since the 13Cs could transfer their goods via land to my ports in North America (which were not blockaded by the French) and from there to Britain. Maybe a bit too complicated I thought.
So as not being in danger of bancruptcy, I requested peace with the French (successfully) - which of course did not stop my protectorate and the French from continuing their war. (sighs at the fact that you cannot have any influence on the policies of your protactorate).
Since I didn´t want to lose more money, I cancelled my trade agreement with the 13Cs (New York was still blockaded by the French and I wasn´t making any money from trading anyways).
Next turn I still needed money, but could not finde a trade partner to replace the 13Cs. So I declared war on the French, trying to get rid of their fleet that was blockading NewYork.
No something really ridiculous happened: I French fleet was blockading Bristol - and BINGO I was bancrupt - as having Bristol blockaded ALL my trade was cut of - meaning ZERO income from trade.
Meaning all my other commercial ports had zero value, all my trade cut of just because one port being blockaded???????????????????????????? :furious3:
I checked, double checked and triple checked - NO other sea trade routes were raided, none of my trading partners ports were raided or blocked.
I think it is a bit strong if ONE of your ports being blocked results in bancruptcy. :dizzy2:
Whats the use in having more then one port then if - following the games (il)logic - all your trade is going via one port anyways. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by mmk

Trade is still a feature that causes me to wonder...

I was playing Britain on M/M and by 1746 the situation was as this:
This time I followed the advice of several fellow posters on here and concentrated on the North American continet right from the start. This meant, after destroying the Carribean pirates, I took on the Cherokee nation (destroyed) and the just emerging US (detroyed). 13 colonies were still my protectorate (13 colonies at that point consisting of New England, New York, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland + Kaintuk Territory and Cherokee Territory (which I gave to them hoping that this would boost their income). The 13Cs had one trading port in New York.
I was owning Lower+ Upper Lousiana, Michigan Territory, Algonquian Territory, Carolinas, Virgina and Florida.
I had Commercial ports in Lower Lousinana and Georgia
In addition I had Bahamas, Jamaica, Windward+Leeward Islands + Trinidad&Tobago withwith commercial ports in the first 4.
In Europe I had England (with commercial ports in Newcastle, Bristol, Liverpool and Greenwich), Scotland (cp in Glasgow) and Ireland also with one commercial port.
I had farms, plantations and trade fleets aplenty + some long time trading partners.

Now the following happened - France declared war on the 13Cs - to "protect my protectorate" I joined in the war. A French fleet was blockading New York port, which resulted in ZERO trade between me (Britain) and the 13Cs - strange thing, since we were sharing at least 8 land borders. So, I came to the conclusion that the game recognises only sea trade as trade if the 13Cs are your trading partner, meaning no matter how many land borders you share in North America, trade between Britain and the 13Cs is only taking place between the 13Cs ports and Britains ports. Well, I thought this a strange thing, since the 13Cs could transfer their goods via land to my ports in North America (which were not blockaded by the French) and from there to Britain. Maybe a bit too complicated I thought.
So as not being in danger of bancruptcy, I requested peace with the French (successfully) - which of course did not stop my protectorate and the French from continuing their war. (sighs at the fact that you cannot have any influence on the policies of your protactorate).
Since I didn´t want to lose more money, I cancelled my trade agreement with the 13Cs (New York was still blockaded by the French and I wasn´t making any money from trading anyways).
Next turn I still needed money, but could not finde a trade partner to replace the 13Cs. So I declared war on the French, trying to get rid of their fleet that was blockading NewYork.
No something really ridiculous happened: I French fleet was blockading Bristol - and BINGO I was bancrupt - as having Bristol blockaded ALL my trade was cut of - meaning ZERO income from trade.
Meaning all my other commercial ports had zero value, all my trade cut of just because one port being blockaded???????????????????????????? :furious3:
I checked, double checked and triple checked - NO other sea trade routes were raided, none of my trading partners ports were raided or blocked.
I think it is a bit strong if ONE of your ports being blocked results in bancruptcy. :dizzy2:
Whats the use in having more then one port then if - following the games (il)logic - all your trade is going via one port anyways. :laugh4:

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I also have a big heartburn with the way trade works.

No matter how many ports a home region has, having one blockaded cuts all trade.

There are some other oddities with the system, like the Danes blocking all American trade via Iceland without putting fleet on the route.

Even a simpleton can see that there are other ways into a country than the one port.

Trade will not reroute to a different port however.

The fact that any Power has loads of ports and trade partners should get goods with out them being transshipped.

It is made to fail and made to keep you broke. Every change makes trade more of a problem.

I often find it tedious and frustrating. At other times infuriating. Some say they find it merely a challenge.

The trouble is that most factions can’t do without it. One turn bankrupt and the next turn all your troops are cut in half. I have no idea if that goes on until you have no units or not…

I do know that there seem to be triggers in the game to challenge any gains with some sort of counter measure.

Sorry that is not much help! I don’t find it fun. Fighting an enemy is fun but being beaten up when you are broke is not. I feel for you.

Thank you for the kind words! ;-)

Would it be a step too far - given the before mentioned "trade" difficulties - to say that the game is seriously lacking logic?

my guess is the reason u lost ur trade with 13 colonies is because all your trade from americas has to go back to your home theatre first. any produce that comes from america is shipped back to england the shipped out to your trade partners. so by blocking their port they stop u from trading.

as for losing all your trade when 1 port was blocked... this shouldnt happen, my understanding was, say your port has 2 trade route capacity. your first 2 trading partners are at that port. the next one goes to a diff port and so on and so forth. so if they blocked that 1 port u should only lose trade with the people that were trading with that port. which makes sense. Ports have limits, which is why the have capacity. only so many ships could said in dock and load and offload cargo. my guess is 1 of 2, either this is a bug OR your port in bristol is so upgraded that its handling most of your international trade routes.

do u not have a fleet in europe to save your trade routes? i find this essential in my game, i had to send my fleet down to the mediterranian in order to kill some barbaries raiding my trade routes. Having a fleet nearbye to protect your assests is a must. even if your concentrating in a diff theatre

Cheers Knoddy

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Originally Posted by knoddy

my guess is the reason u lost ur trade with 13 colonies is because all your trade from americas has to go back to your home theatre first. any produce that comes from america is shipped back to england the shipped out to your trade partners. so by blocking their port they stop u from trading.

as for losing all your trade when 1 port was blocked... this shouldnt happen, my understanding was, say your port has 2 trade route capacity. your first 2 trading partners are at that port. the next one goes to a diff port and so on and so forth. so if they blocked that 1 port u should only lose trade with the people that were trading with that port. which makes sense. Ports have limits, which is why the have capacity. only so many ships could said in dock and load and offload cargo. my guess is 1 of 2, either this is a bug OR your port in bristol is so upgraded that its handling most of your international trade routes.

do u not have a fleet in europe to save your trade routes? i find this essential in my game, i had to send my fleet down to the mediterranian in order to kill some barbaries raiding my trade routes. Having a fleet nearbye to protect your assests is a must. even if your concentrating in a diff theatre

Cheers Knoddy

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Hi, port in bristol is a commercial port, like all the other ports are commercial ports. So in my understanding, they all should have the same trading values (as they are the same types of ports). At least that is my understanding.

And yes, I do have a fleet there, but still the fact that if just one port is blockaded all trade is blocked is a bit odd, is it?

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Originally Posted by knoddy

my guess is the reason u lost ur trade with 13 colonies is because all your trade from americas has to go back to your home theatre first. any produce that comes from america is shipped back to england the shipped out to your trade partners. so by blocking their port they stop u from trading.

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So it seems.
Although the thing that I do share land borders with the 13Cs and I have commercial ports in NAmerica, too should help here. Well, at least that is what I thought.

Thanks for your input!

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Originally Posted by mmk

So it seems.
Although the thing that I do share land borders with the 13Cs and I have commercial ports in NAmerica, too should help here. Well, at least that is what I thought.

Thanks for your input!

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yea but wot im saying is there is no land trade in america or india for that matter (unless its your home theatre)

the way i understand the extra theatres is that any goods are exported back to your home theatre and then exported out to your trade partners. so even tho you have borders with them the goods still go back to europe then are exported by sea back to them. since their trade port is obviously blocked, you cannot export the goods back to them. Hope that makes sense.

as for the single port stopping all trade, its either a bug or, how many trade agreements do u have? i believe the limit of a commercial basin is 4, although i could be wrong. so if u only have 4 trade agreements via sea, then its quite possible all 4 are going through this 1 port so since its blocked u get no trade, perhaps they should implement something where if u have free trade slots on other ports they should redirect the trade route to them, or, its a bug lol. let me know how many trade agreements u have.

Cheers Knoddy

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Originally Posted by knoddy

as for the single port stopping all trade, its either a bug or, how many trade agreements do u have? i believe the limit of a commercial basin is 4, although i could be wrong. so if u only have 4 trade agreements via sea, then its quite possible all 4 are going through this 1 port so since its blocked u get no trade, perhaps they should implement something where if u have free trade slots on other ports they should redirect the trade route to them, or, its a bug lol. let me know how many trade agreements u have.

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Wonder if he cancelled his trade agreements, then made new ones next turn if it would re-route through the unblocked ports? Course nme might block them then.. I think it's buggy that it doesn't reroute through your available other slots.

Plus as sweden I had trade coming to me from Mediterranean and france was blocking englands port ( both trade partners ) and my trade from med. dropped off, line before england was 16,000 after england 10,000 ... argh.

@ mmk

I don’t think it lacks logic, I think it is made to frustrate.

If you check your ports in GB you will find that all ports are not equal. Some are more important than others. Bristol and Greenwich are worth more than the others. There is always a port in a region worth more than the others.


There are ways around the blockades if you have more than one per region but it is drastic.

Destroy the port. (don’t do this with Greenwich, it is a higher level port that you don’t have the tech for at start.) Then the trade will switch to another. But you sure need a navy to keep that from happening.

In regions with only one port the trade will switch to a another region’s port. I would say it needs fixed but the ugly part is I think it was just made that way.

I agree, it is all a bit strange, and I find the fact that none of your provinces have any trade when they share land borders to be very odd. That seems regressive, from memory STW and MTW were like that - if you killed of your trade partners you had to rely on taxes, since your people were incapable of trading internally.

A few additional observations and remarks:

I had 2 trade partners left, Portugal and the Ottoman empire.
Trade with them was handled via Bristol in addition I had some of my own goods shipped to Bristol, too.
Also trade income via Newcastle - also my own goods (those from my North American possessions I suppose).

So the French blockade of Bristol resulted in a loss of trade with the trade partners and my own trade goods(from the Carribean + Coast of Brazil sugar trade, I suppose). As knoddy and Fisherking stated. But and now comes the big BUT: On the campaign map Newcastle port still had the green lines - indicating that trade goods were still being handled there. Putting the cursor over the green line showed a trade value of 1080 - which should have left me with at least 1080 income from trade - BUT the trade card in the Government screen showed a ZERO trade income. All trade being blocked, absolutely no income from trade.
Now I think, that is really a bug there! Even if we assume that the game is not meant to re-direct trade to other ports of the same region it should at least take notice of still incoming trade via other ports.
If there is still trade coming in via one port (Newcastle), at least this trade value should be added to your income, no matter if another port (Bristol), handling part of your trade income is being blockaded.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

@ mmk

If you check your ports in GB you will find that all ports are not equal. Some are more important than others. Bristol and Greenwich are worth more than the others. There is always a port in a region worth more than the others.

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Hi Fisherking thanks for the advice.
Is there another way to check a ports value apart from the building card (port type and possible trade routes) and the mouse over the green lines (indicating the value and the trade partners handled via that port)?

I find it odd that when one has an unobstructed land border, no enemy countries in position to block it, one cannot trade. I don't understand if it's just not working right or a feature. As Great Britain I hold Florida, Georgia, Kentucky and am on very friendly terms with the Iroquois, but can't trade with them. The 13 Colonies are still my protectorate till I take Quebec from the French. I can establish overseas trade with other nations, but not my neighbor.

Does a land-based trade route still have to go through a port?

Something more about trade.

I just started a new Britain Campaign, same settings as above.

It is turn 2.

My trade partners are Sweden, Portugal, UP, 13Cs, France, Maratha Confed., Ottomans and Savoy.

The trade card in the main menue tells me that trade from

Sw, Port, UP, 13Cs, France

is taking place via sea routes while trade from

Maratha Confed, Ottomans and Savoy

is taking place via land routes!!!

Now how does this fit in the picture? I do not share any land borders with the three above mentioned empires.

Closer observation of the three trade ports that seem to be involved in trading shows:
Trade seems to be taking place via
Glasgow port (the box says Trade route GB = 1291)
Bristol port (GB = 738, Portugal = 1167, Maratha Confed = 788, Ottoman = 578, Savoy = 312)
Greenwich port ( GB = 1678, UP = 1049, 13Cs = 957, France = 864, Sweden = 654)

So Maratha, Ottoman and Savoy trade on the campaign map is incoming via ports, obviously - sth the trade card doesn´t seem to realize.

Now My overall trade income is given with 3317 per turn.
How does this correspond with the above given figures of trade value that is handled via my three ports???? If I add the 3 figures for GB, the result is 3707, not 3317. :help:

And any idea why the Irish trade port (which is closer to the Americas) does not have any trade value?
All this remains a mystery to me.

I think the concept that trade has to come through your home capital is a reasonable one. There's nothing to say there's no trade going on over your land borders, just not trade that your government can properly tax - unless it all comes through their capital's warehouses. (I think in this period some of London's warehouses were the largest man-made buildings in the world?)

Iirc (and I probably don't), wasn't the ol'Boston tea party due to the fact that London was slapping huge tarrifs on tea, which came from India via London?

As to whether the trade ports are bugged, that's another matter entirely ;)

PS. I don't think the Irish trade port gets trade income for GB because it's not connected to London via a land route, unlike the Scottish ports. However, I don't know how this applies to say, a pan-European Prussian empire, where nearly all their ports would be connected via land... maybe it has to be in a province directly adjacent to your home province as well?

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Originally Posted by Fridgebadger

PS. I don't think the Irish trade port gets trade income for GB because it's not connected to London via a land route, unlike the Scottish ports. However, I don't know how this applies to say, a pan-European Prussian empire, where nearly all their ports would be connected via land... maybe it has to be in a province directly adjacent to your home province as well?

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The Irish trade ports most definitely do. If you start up the game (post-patch 1.2), you can make a total of 9 trade agreements as GB on turn 1. If the Irish trade port was not functional, it would be only 7. I know you can't see the trade route on the screen, as I've never seen a trade route appear from there pre- or post- patch, despite maxing out the trade agreements.

As long as your ports are connected (via a direct land link or "bridge"), they will be functional. However, the strategic-map displays may not always show them properly.

There is another issue that caught my attention. Fisherking is correct (in several posts in several threads) in that the game conspires to nerf trade. I am currently in 1725, and the prices for spices - and more importantly ivory have been steadily declining - despite the fact that not a single trade ship has been added to any trade spot for at least 30 turns!

Demand should be going up as the population increases, and prices go up as the supply remains constant!!!

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

I find it odd that when one has an unobstructed land border, no enemy countries in position to block it, one cannot trade. I don't understand if it's just not working right or a feature. As Great Britain I hold Florida, Georgia, Kentucky and am on very friendly terms with the Iroquois, but can't trade with them. The 13 Colonies are still my protectorate till I take Quebec from the French. I can establish overseas trade with other nations, but not my neighbor.

Does a land-based trade route still have to go through a port?

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I believe land routes run from city to city and from port to capital.

The only tribe I have ever seen trade is the Cherokee. I don’t thing the others can…but why I don’t know.


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Also, can anyone verify that they actually get money for pirating a trade route?

I have not been able to see any result. I could be looking wrong or something but I still don’t know.

It may cut the enemy but blockades are more effective than that. It was said that you get a portion of that trade, but it was also said that the AI would know when to use retreat…

So it could be another undocumented change.:smash:

@ Hosakawa Tito: GB can't trade with the NA tribes, as they do not have ports. All trade has to go back to your capital region. So you cannot trade with the NA tribes, even if you have neighboring territories. Same goes for Mysore in India.

Concerning NA trading: I have seen both the Cherokee and the Iriquios trade with each other & (before the patch) with the 13 Colonies. Post-patch, you can still trade with them as the USA in RTI Chapter 4. I don't think the others trade, as they are usually hostile to/ at war with their neighbors.

@ Fisherking: Pirating an enemy trade lane definitely brings in the moolah. I am bringing in ~ 1600 gp raiding Swedish & Prussian trade lanes with a 9-ship stack outside of London. The income shows up under "Other".

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Also, can anyone verify that they actually get money for pirating a trade route?

I have not been able to see any result. I could be looking wrong or something but I still don’t know.

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Just check your "other income" figure when you pirate. Everything above 3000 is pirated income. Close/reopen the screen to update the numbers when you move your ships around.

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Originally Posted by Darth Venom

Just check your "other income" figure when you pirate. Everything above 3000 is pirated income. Close/reopen the screen to update the numbers when you move your ships around.

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Is there a particular amount you usually receive pre ship like trade or is it more random?

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Originally Posted by Darth Venom

Just check your "other income" figure when you pirate. Everything above 3000 is pirated income. Close/reopen the screen to update the numbers when you move your ships around.

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Hi there.

I regularly have "other income" above 3000 without pirating but when I am protector. I thought the above 3000 is the income from protectorates?

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Originally Posted by mmk

Hi there.

I regularly have "other income" above 3000 without pirating but when I am protector. I thought the above 3000 is the income from protectorates?

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I guess it's both then

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Is there a particular amount you usually receive pre ship like trade or is it more random?

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From my observations it seems to be a percentage of the trade amount per ship.

@ Hosakawa Tito - as others have stated I BELIEVE that the way NON HOME THEATRE trade works, is that any goods produced are shipped back to your home theatre and then exported out to your trade partners, therefore the only way you could trade with the Native American tribes would be if they had naval ports.

@mmk - its a known bug that some trade routes show up as the wrong thing, in my poland campaign i had all my trade routes coming up in my menu as land despite the fact that i had like +15k via my sea routes.

as for why your trade is less than what your lane says i have no idea, possibly a bug, possibly corruption or something.

@ the others - protectorate income also shows up in other i guess as well as pirating income.

im pretty sure the irish trade port is active in my GB camp ill have a look next time i load it up.

Cheers Knoddy

Thanks for in the insight! Another trade oddity in North America as GB:

The 13 Colonies are still my protectorate as I still need to conquer Quebec. I'm currently consolidating my recent conquest and destruction of the Cherokee. I hold Florida, Georgia, and the Carolinas. I have a trade port in Georgia and some trade goods *cotton* from Carolina are being exported through the Georgia port, but none seem to be from my coffee plantation in Florida. There are wagons going from the Carolina capitol to the Georgia capitol & port, but none coming from the Florida capitol. Money is tight and I would have held off upgrading the Florida coffee plantation if I had known that I couldn't trade coffee till Florida developed its own port.

The Florida capitol shows that coffee is being exported, but no coffee is being traded to my trade partners. It's all rather confusing and difficult to make intelligent & timely economic decisions without more info on this.

@ Hosakawa: Post-patch, the basic trade port can export only 30 bales worth of goods. So your port in Georgia is already occupied with its own export and the Carolina goods. You will need to upgrade the port to get more goods.

If the problems discussed so far are not enough for most of you to think this is a bit much then here is another thing for you to mull over.

As you know one port blocked at home cuts off trade. Well, one port in a theater cuts all good from that theater. So if Jamaica is blocked you stop getting furs from Rupert’s Land. Or if Cuba is blocked you loose the goods from all of the rest. India is the same.

It is much too easy to loose trade, especially when ship upkeep is too high to afford the ships you need to police anything. Once that happens you are toast anyway.

Trade is still bugged.

1. Block one port and you blockade all trade from that theater.
2. Trade lanes that transport trade of an amount like 10,XXX, will not show the first 10 but a lower number. For example: instead of 10850 it will show 850 or 0850.
3. Some trade is traded over land even when it is impossible to have an uninterrupted connection that way. For example Ottoman Empire with Spain while there are hostile states between them and they share no common border.
4. In my Spanish campaign I was earning 49K from trade with Maratha. I could follow that trade from India to the sea lane in front of the coast of Portugal where is disappeared. Instead of landing in the port of Porto, it rematerialized in northern France, went over land to Marseilles and from there by sea to my port in southern Spain and then to Madrid :dizzy2:.

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Originally Posted by Monsieur Alphonse

Trade is still bugged.

1. Block one port and you blockade all trade from that theater.
2. Trade lanes that transport trade of an amount like 10,XXX, will not show the first 10 but a lower number. For example: instead of 10850 it will show 850 or 0850.
3. Some trade is traded over land even when it is impossible to have an uninterrupted connection that way. For example Ottoman Empire with Spain while there are hostile states between them and they share no common border.
4. In my Spanish campaign I was earning 49K from trade with Maratha. I could follow that trade from India to the sea lane in front of the coast of Portugal where is disappeared. Instead of landing in the port of Porto, it rematerialized in northern France, went over land to Marseilles and from there by sea to my port in southern Spain and then to Madrid :dizzy2:.

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1. this sounds like a bug or a sneak thing to make it harder
2. ive never had this, in my maratha camp i had my main trade lane with like 40k on it?
3. even if your trade screen says its via land its still via sea, its only a glich in the trade screen it doesnt effect gameplay at all
4. seems completely random and never experienced anything like this O.o

I know that in my GB campaign I am not taking on Spain for Gibraltar till last because of their huge navy. I'll never be able to afford the naval police force to cover every port in North America, India, and the Channel too. Blockading a trade port should only affect the goods handled by that port, whereas raiding a major trade route should affect all the goods from that theater. I hope they decide to fix this in a future patch.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

If the problems discussed so far are not enough for most of you to think this is a bit much then here is another thing for you to mull over.

As you know one port blocked at home cuts off trade. Well, one port in a theater cuts all good from that theater. So if Jamaica is blocked you stop getting furs from Rupert’s Land. Or if Cuba is blocked you loose the goods from all of the rest. India is the same.

It is much too easy to loose trade, especially when ship upkeep is too high to afford the ships you need to police anything. Once that happens you are toast anyway.

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I fully agree.

Another observation: Playing as Spain I fulfilled my core mission which resulted in New Spain joining my side. I was of the opinion that this would result in a major boost of my economy (many more ports, mines and plantations). Strangely enough the addition of all these developed territoties resulted in me making less money then before New Spain joined my side. :no:

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Originally Posted by mmk

Another observation: Playing as Spain I fulfilled my core mission which resulted in New Spain joining my side. I was of the opinion that this would result in a major boost of my economy (many more ports, mines and plantations). Strangely enough the addition of all these developed territoties resulted in me making less money then before New Spain joined my side. :no:

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Probably the New Spain provinces that just joined you are underdeveloped: you need to build these provinces up to reap the $$$. Also, check those harbors: most likely they're not trade harbors but rather fishing harbors. AI loves to build them.

Also, check your trade page: it's possible some of your trade partners have their harbors blockaded by their respective enemies. It's your job to fight these scoundrels off if your trade partners are not able to.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

I also have a big heartburn with the way trade works.

No matter how many ports a home region has, having one blockaded cuts all trade.

There are some other oddities with the system, like the Danes blocking all American trade via Iceland without putting fleet on the route.

Even a simpleton can see that there are other ways into a country than the one port.

Trade will not reroute to a different port however.

The fact that any Power has loads of ports and trade partners should get goods with out them being transshipped.

It is made to fail and made to keep you broke. Every change makes trade more of a problem.

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Yes, that bugs me too. Under the current system, one pirate ship blockading an obscure island in the Carribean can blockade my WHOLE American trade flow, from ALL American provinces despite my all other trade routes to Europe being open. That's simply BS...

I suspect this is actually a bug.

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Originally Posted by Slaists

Probably the New Spain provinces that just joined you are underdeveloped: you need to build these provinces up to reap the $$$. Also, check those harbors: most likely they're not trade harbors but rather fishing harbors. AI loves to build them.

Also, check your trade page: it's possible some of your trade partners have their harbors blockaded by their respective enemies. It's your job to fight these scoundrels off if your trade partners are not able to.



Yes, that bugs me too. Under the current system, one pirate ship blockading an obscure island in the Carribean can blockade my WHOLE American trade flow, from ALL American provinces despite my all other trade routes to Europe being open. That's simply BS...

I suspect this is actually a bug.

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Thanks for the advice! Checking on all the trade issues lately, I became somewhat of a trade pro, so I was making very little money with New Spain fully developed and with the maximum number of trade ports operating in the region. That is why the pityful income from all those gold miney etc etc was so shocking/astonishing to me. No trade routes or ports being blocked.

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Originally Posted by mmk

Another observation: Playing as Spain I fulfilled my core mission which resulted in New Spain joining my side. I was of the opinion that this would result in a major boost of my economy (many more ports, mines and plantations). Strangely enough the addition of all these developed territoties resulted in me making less money then before New Spain joined my side. :no:

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You were trading with New Spain. That trade was lost when they joined you. You were also receiving tribute because were their protector. Usually the lost trade is compensated by your other trade partners but since it is possible that their trade is blocked or raided your total income can be less then before. You should also be aware that since you get an extra five or six regions your tax income is reduced because your administrative cost will increase.

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Originally Posted by Monsieur Alphonse

You were trading with New Spain. That trade was lost when they joined you. You were also receiving tribute because were their protector. Usually the lost trade is compensated by your other trade partners but since it is possible that their trade is blocked or raided your total income can be less then before. You should also be aware that since you get an extra five or six regions your tax income is reduced because your administrative cost will increase.

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Thank you for the advice! Administrative costs? O.k. - but then the richess of the New World made Spain rich or did I get my history classes wrong here? And since New Spain joined me voluntarily, why then lose trade and not get trade in addition? All very strange. I mean of course you are perfectly right with your assumptions, but then the logic of the game is that you lose when you gain. :wall:

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Originally Posted by mmk

Thank you for the advice! Administrative costs? O.k. - but then the richess of the New World made Spain rich or did I get my history classes wrong here? And since New Spain joined me voluntarily, why then lose trade and not get trade in addition? All very strange. I mean of course you are perfectly right with your assumptions, but then the logic of the game is that you lose when you gain. :wall:

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In my Spanish campaign my income from New Spain was 2500 from trade and some 1500 from being its protector. Normally your trade is redistributed among your trade partners if you lose one. In my case I didn't lose any trade. That 1500 and the overall decrease in taxes because of admin costs, has to be compensated with the extra income from the newly acquired regions. In my campaign I had a bigger income after NS joined me. Mexico and Venezuela are very rich regions, but need some development.

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Originally Posted by Darth Venom

Just check your "other income" figure when you pirate. Everything above 3000 is pirated income. Close/reopen the screen to update the numbers when you move your ships around.

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Think this is partly true, butpretty sure that protectorate income also shows under other.

When I raided the Mughals trade route with 3 separate fleets, 1 full stack, 2 ships and 1 ship something strange happened. I sent the big fleet in, and their income dropped from 2,500 to 1,000, but adding the 2 ship fleet it went up to 1,800, and adding the single ship it went to 2,000. Err, what? Very strange.

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Originally Posted by mmk

Meaning all my other commercial ports had zero value, all my trade cut of just because one port being blockaded???????????????????????????? :furious3:

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I think the only way this can be rationalised is to remember that we are not really dealing with state adminstered trade but are seeing the benefits of a lot of private independantly negotiated trade agreements.

So, if 'Ripoff and Scarper Cotton Imports of Bristol' have done a deal with 'Dixie Lee Cotton Exports of Baltimore' for the supply of cotton, then ships owned or contracted by one or both of these companies would be transporting cotton bales from the warehouses where they are stored in Baltimore to the warhouses that are destined to receive them in Bristol.

Consequently, if either Bristol or Baltimore is blockaded then the trade is effectively cut-off, either because the ships carrying the goods can't leave or enter port, or because the ships owned by the contractors can't put to sea.

In theory, 'R&S' could arrange to have the cotton delivered to London and transported overland to the warehouses in Bristol, but that would increase their costs no end and instead they are more likely to moan to their local MP about the appaling state of the navy and wait for someone to sort it out.

What is not very satisfactory is that in practice these private contracts would exist between companies in every trading port of both countries. So, if the French only blockaded Bristol then it would only cut off those trade contracts with companies based in Bristol. Those based in London would continue to trade without affect. So, a blockade ought to just reduce the trade in proportion to the number of ports owned and the number blockaded, rather than be a total blockade based on a single port.

Yes, protectorate income appears under "Other Revenue" in the National Summary page.

No, if one of your trade ports in New World is blockaded, that does not cause all trade from that theatre to be blocked. It's an interface problem. The Trade page makes it look like all of the goods being shipped to your home region are being blocked because the entire line shows red instead of just the units that normally would be shipped from the blockaded port and are too far from another port to be shipped out through them.

For example, if you're GB, you've got sugar coming in from the Bahamas and Jamaica, furs from Rupert's land, and let's say cotton from Georgia and Carolina. If Jamaica's trade port gets blocked, the Trade screen will show all exports from the American theatre. However, you'll still export goods to your trade partners. This is only possible because the sugar from the Bahamas, the furs from Rupert's Land, and the cotton from Georgia and Carolina are still making it to London and then on to your trade partners. Only the sugar from Jamaica is not getting through.

A different example. Let's say both Georgia and Carolina have trade ports, and that the Georgian port is being blockaded. In this case, the cotton from Georgia will be diverted to the trade port in Carolina (so long as the Carolina trade port has the capacity to export that many units. Assuming it does, you will still see all red from the American theatre in the Trade window, but in actuallity, all of your exports from that theatre are still getting through to London and then on to your trade partners.

So, like I said, it's an interface problem. The way the Trade screen shows you that one of your ports is being blockaded is not very helpful. It gives you the impression that ALL trade from that theatre is blocked, which is false, and it does not show you which goods, or how many of them, are not getting through, nor does it tell you which of your trade ports is blockaded. This is exactly the opposite on the Export side of the Trade screen. That one will tell you which trade relationship is being hindered, which makes it a lot easier for you to know which trade port is being blockaded.

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Originally Posted by mmk

Thank you for the advice! Administrative costs? O.k. - but then the richess of the New World made Spain rich or did I get my history classes wrong here? And since New Spain joined me voluntarily, why then lose trade and not get trade in addition? All very strange. I mean of course you are perfectly right with your assumptions, but then the logic of the game is that you lose when you gain. :wall:

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Hmm, in my experience, all New World South American provinces are worth a lot even if they produce 0 in taxes (when I exempt them from taxes) just by increasing my trade. Most of the New World provinces in South America export goods that can be sold to your trade partners. In early game, early-mid game, the trade income definitely outweighs the tax income.

Also, note that fur good tax revenue you need high town wealth. Most likely, when you took those provinces from Mexico, town wealth was nil... You can build it up by 1) investing a lot in enlightenment techs (especially the right side of them) 2) by developing your roads 3) by developing your trade harbors 4) by developing your towns and farms; better even, by doing all 4 of the listed at the same time.

In mid/late game, town wealth is the biggest contributor to my tax income.

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Originally Posted by Slaists

Hmm, in my experience, all New World South American provinces are worth a lot even if they produce 0 in taxes (when I exempt them from taxes) just by increasing my trade. Most of the New World provinces in South America export goods that can be sold to your trade partners. In early game, early-mid game, the trade income definitely outweighs the tax income.

Also, note that fur good tax revenue you need high town wealth. Most likely, when you took those provinces from Mexico, town wealth was nil... You can build it up by 1) investing a lot in enlightenment techs (especially the right side of them) 2) by developing your roads 3) by developing your trade harbors 4) by developing your towns and farms; better even, by doing all 4 of the listed at the same time.

In mid/late game, town wealth is the biggest contributor to my tax income.

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Thanks again Slaists!
I got the New World Provinces AFTER investing a lot of time in researching all techs available. Mailed roads (sp??) in place. Trade harbours teched up to trade basins. Still the boost in income was nil.

In general I am surprised about the little boost in income the game offers. E.g when playing Sweden, holding 5 provinces and having 4 trade partners I was making around 5000 per turn. After adding Lithuania to the Swedish empire + 3 more trade partners + all farms at max. mailed roads + trade ports up to second level, industries developed and a lot of tech researched I was down to 3500 per turn.

Well, I cannot prove my point on a scientific basis, since I don´t really know how the game works (lack of in depth documentation), but my gut feeling tells me that there is sth wrong in the way the game machine does its maths.

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Originally Posted by mmk

Thanks again Slaists!
I got the New World Provinces AFTER investing a lot of time in researching all techs available. Mailed roads (sp??) in place. Trade harbours teched up to trade basins. Still the boost in income was nil.

In general I am surprised about the little boost in income the game offers. E.g when playing Sweden, holding 5 provinces and having 4 trade partners I was making around 5000 per turn. After adding Lithuania to the Swedish empire + 3 more trade partners + all farms at max. mailed roads + trade ports up to second level, industries developed and a lot of tech researched I was down to 3500 per turn.

Well, I cannot prove my point on a scientific basis, since I don´t really know how the game works (lack of in depth documentation), but my gut feeling tells me that there is sth wrong in the way the game machine does its maths.

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Check out the screens here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117119. That's the end of a VH Russian campaign. I had 32 provinces and from about 1780 (that's when I stopped adding provinces) my tax income was 'popping' up by about 1000 gold per turn just from wealth growth; meanwhile trade income was growing even faster from the enlightenment techs.

All in all, I was able to make about 50K in profits per turn from mid-game on.

I think administrative costs are a bit misunderstood. In my experience it acts more in a manner similar to a progressive tax on income.

E.G.

My campaign as France is nearly finished, I hold 49 provinces and all but 2 trade nodes. My income with 4 full stack armies was 45000. I now have a whopping 10 full stack armies and income is 43500.

On one blockaded port to blockade them all:

I actually like the blockade one port and it blocks all trade concept.

There's no need to micromanage blockading multiple trade ports. If an enemy can keep a naval fleet blockading a trade port in your home region they can blockade them all. It's just a question of macro vs micro and going micro offers no real benefits I can see from a gameplay or realsim perspective.

Most nations of the era kept fleets at home precisely to protect trade, or in the case of GB also prevent seaborne invasions. Let's not talk about "logic" or "realism" if you're playing GB and don't keep a Home Fleet ready to repel invasions or attempts to cut your trade. Because that's not realistic at all.

On trade with the 13 colonies:

It doesn't matter if you have overaseas territories connected to the 13 colonies. The market for everything in this era is Europe. So you still have to get the goods back to your home region, which is still blockaded.

The game mechanics are much simpler this way and are more effective at portraying the era. Major fleet actions were fought to prevent blockade for precisely this reason. It shouldn't be possible to simply destroy the blockading force of some piddly backwater port and suddenly your trade is all functioning again. Specific trade ports had massive infrastructure for loading/unloading/storage/administration/etc. If someone blockaded such a major port your trade was going to suffer big time, even if you had 100 small ports elsewhere in the country that could in theory offload goods.

So you need to protect your home region port with a fleet at all times if you don't have enough money to hold out a few turns. 1 turn is representing 6 months - that's a long time to be without any trade.