-So squire – what have we got here today at Medieval Total War Mythbusters?
-Oh high lord Knight of the Rose, we have received reports from different websites and boards that the virtue “Natural Leader” is something that can be gained from playing battles in a certain way.
-Well we all know I’m a natural – but I’m uncertain about other people. What do you think? Is talent something you can earn by working hard?
-Sire, no one is questioning your leadership. Personally I believe that only God grant victory in battle and favour the pious with leadership quality.
-Bah – enough of this backside licking. What are the details of the myth?
-My liege – apparently charging the enemy as the very first soldier – before anyone else in the army including the arrows of archers – leading the army from the front and showing by example how to dispose of the enemy would lead to the gain in virtue.
-Hmm – most chivalrous and brave. Let us draw the experiment:
-We’ll take some Polish Retainers in High period – they are fast and heavy enough to go through a lot of battles against rebels. Poland borders a couple of rebel provinces that can be used as testing grounds. We’ll go through 12 battles, with Sir Pawol Stawecki aka ‘Buster’ in the front – always taking the brunt of the battle and lead just as the myth say. We will be using auxiliary troops when necessary, but cannot use archers as they could kill enemies before Stawecki.
-Not that difficult a battle – as we for the experiments sake only play on normal we should be able to hit the spearmen in the flank even though we didn’t bring a pinning unit
-Right you are squire – hand me that lance, and will get to work
-There you go – this has gotten the experiment rolling.
-Sure has sire, and a beautiful victory too
-Oh do shut up.
Please join us for the second part of Mythbuster: Total War "Natural Leadership" just after the break
05-23-2009, 15:22
Martok
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
A fascinating experiment, KotR. I've always been under the impression that the Natural Leader line of traits was random and couldn't be "earned". Will be interesting to see if I'm proved wrong. :beam:
05-23-2009, 18:24
Axalon
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Great post KotR! :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
You just got yourself a faithfull reader! However, I kind of doubt, my honorable lord that you'll ever manange to get this trait with anything other than a king I'm afraid (no matter what the manual says), but by all means see this thru to the end, it is too fun to give up! :laugh4:
For what it is worth, I have fighted alot in my days and I kind of fight bravely as well (because I don't want any coward-vices) and I never ever managed to get this trait with any of my regular generals - no matter how daunting the odds or circumstances were.
The other way around however, as in the "coward-path", that seems to work if you are persistant enough with it. Not talking about the "Good runner"-thingy but the other; "Not so bold"-trait. Anyhow, your post is too good to give up on so...
I got my popcorn ready here, so this little intermission of yours better be at
an end soon because I want to know how this drama ends! :2thumbsup:
- Cheers
05-23-2009, 22:41
Knight of the Rose
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
- Welcome back from the break, after Busters first run into the rebels he gained a star, but no Natural Leader trait.
- Squire, you moron! You cannot become a natural leader from one engagement!
- I beg for your utmost mercy my lord, I was only trying to update...
- Shut up, and let us have some more battles!
- As you will, sire. The rebels, well... rebelled in Pomerania, just as they should
- Well my lord, after these three battles, Buster has personally killed 51 rebels and risen from 0 valor to 4 valor.
- Not too bad, but still no Natural Leader.
Will Buster ever become famous for his leadership - the Mythbuster : Total War will tell you soon enough
(side note: I've allready played and taken screenies from all battles - just dragging the thread a little to create some drama :2thumbsup:)
05-24-2009, 10:27
Ludens
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight of the Rose
(side note: I've allready played and taken screenies from all battles - just dragging the thread a little to create some drama :2thumbsup:)
~:thumb:
05-25-2009, 08:44
I of the Storm
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Goodiegoodie!!! :applause:
05-25-2009, 21:38
Knight of the Rose
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
- My lord, you're back! The landholders and peasants are lazy, and has gathered a smaller than expected harvest this year. The storehouses could be empty before spring!!
- Squire what are you taking about?!? <slaps squire at the back of the head>
- Sorry my liege, wrong game
- We're here to bust a myth, remember?
- Yes my lord, we will procede to the Polish battlefields at once!
- Well there you go Squire, fearsome peasants. Never seen that before. Should we for the sake of our honour mention the archers had been molested a little before the chase?
- You are a picture of Honour and Chivalry my lord!
- <slaps squire for the third time, causing a grunt> Do you think people are reading this thread due to your foolish comments? Show some battle pictures!
- So squire, what did we learn from these battles?
- My Liege! Buster keeps gaining stars, and now he is also feared so much by the Pomeranians, that we needed to move the experiment to Preussia in the sixth battle
- So he is effective, but is he a Natural Leader
- Sir, dispise leading from the front and charging first in each battle, he is nothing but a skilled defender.
Skill can be honed through battle, but can leadership? This is the thread to tell you!
05-26-2009, 00:37
bamff
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Great work, KotR - I am loving this!
05-26-2009, 21:49
Knight of the Rose
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
- So we're back in the workshop squire, but I think you forgot to keep track on the personal kills by buster
- My lord, I'm happy to inform you that we have nice battlelog files that show us everything. After seven battles Stawecki has ended the life of 91 rebels, and has a personal valor of 4. He is also a field defence specialist, as well as a three star general.
- But is he a natural leader, this we need to find out
- Anything interesting to note about these battles, squire?
- Nay my liege, the quality of the rebels is low, but in these battles they came in large numbers, so we even pulled in some of the Princes of Poland to assist Buster. Despite charging in alone, Buster was never threatened seriously, even though the battles did take some toll on the Retainers.
- Has he become a Natural Leader?
- No, nothing after ten battles.
- It's not looking good for the myth. I think we need to go a little extreme on the last two battles.
- I agree my Lord. We only need Stawecki for one thing, and that is attacking.
Did this amazing charge bestow the wanted virtue on Buster? And what will happen in the final battle? Do not miss the spectacular ending of Mythbusters: Total War
05-26-2009, 23:42
Axalon
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Ok, I got another load of popcorn here! More than 10 fights right?!? :2thumbsup:
:medievalcheers:
05-27-2009, 08:27
Roark
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
C'mon!!! Next instalment!!!
:2thumbsup:
05-27-2009, 09:20
dragula42
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Lol I love it
05-27-2009, 15:20
drone
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Failure is always an option! :2thumbsup:
05-27-2009, 23:50
HopAlongBunny
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Buster! Buster!
He's the man!
If he can't do it,
No one can!!!
Huzzzah!
05-28-2009, 07:37
Roark
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
KOTR:
How in the name of the Lord of Hell's black arse did you break those spears in the first battle with a medium cavalry unit and the loss of only 6 men????
05-28-2009, 07:39
Roark
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Ah, the general must have been in the peasants unit and you killed him first...
Duh...
05-28-2009, 15:38
Knight of the Rose
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
To all of you: I dídn't finish the last installment before going away for a conference. I hope to finish the story in the weekend, tuesday at the latest.
As to Roark, yes the general was the peasant unit, but I took on the spears first. They turn a little slow on normal difficulty, as you can see in the pic in my first post, so I caught them in the flank and chopped away. The spears defend well against cav but on normal difficulty, vanilla spearmen have a hard time pulling down Polish Retainers unless the horses are in front of them. The peasants closed in and try to hit me in the rear while engaged with the spearmen. I pulled away from the fight, and when approached by the two units I then charged the peasants. After a nasty slaughter the peasants ran, and the depleted spearmen soon followed.
/KotR
05-29-2009, 06:00
dragula42
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
What does vanilla mean? I hear it so often
05-29-2009, 06:09
drone
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragula42
What does vanilla mean? I hear it so often
Vanilla has a couple of meanings. In this context:
Quote:
The spears defend well against cav but on normal difficulty, vanilla spearmen have a hard time pulling down Polish Retainers unless the horses are in front of them.
it means standard spearmen, as opposed to armoured spearmen, chiv sergeants, etc. Plain "vanilla", no special flavor.
It can also mean unmodified. "Vanilla MTW:VI" would refer to the base MTW game with the expansion, as opposed to a modded campaign like MedMod or XL.
05-29-2009, 06:32
dragula42
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Oh ok thanks
05-29-2009, 14:39
Ironside
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Good to actually see this one tested, I suspect I'm one of those who inspired you to the test.
Trying "killer instinct" up to really high levels and "great warrior" line next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok
A fascinating experiment, KotR. I've always been under the impression that the Natural Leader line of traits was random and couldn't be "earned". Will be interesting to see if I'm proved wrong. :beam:
Seen it improve from natural leader to fine leader once (backround check at forum shows it was somewhere in 2004...), was quite shocking. So the v&v can improve during a lifetime, although seemingly extremely rare. Then I was quite mean to this expendable king so he was at the very first frontlines instead of the reserves that the generals usually belongs.
Edit: Might add some test circumstances. My king was the general and was mainly (only? don't remember) attacking. I'm quite sure it was less than 10 battles.
05-30-2009, 20:47
Knight of the Rose
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Welcome all, to the final instalment in the Mythbuster: Natural Leadership broadcast!
- Yes squire, I’ve been looking forward to this final battle, with just a little Flowerknight touch to it.
- As you will, my liege. The myth is as good as busted if you ask me
- What kind of Knight would I be if I asked a squire?!? Shot up and show us the setup!
- Hehe, this is what legends are made of. To ensure maximum pressure on buster, we took all his little friends from him and made him face the rebels alone.
- If he can survive this and still not be a Natural Leader, well, then the myth will be as busted as a Templar facing camels in the desert!
- A somewhat improper allegory, squire!
- Sorry my liege, I was not thinking
- As usual! Why are you wearing that helmet by the way?
- My liege, the battle…
First part
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
- Ah yes, this is the rebel starting position; Two spearmen, an archer and a catapult. If we are to win this we need to use our speed and superior charge.
- Catapult crew leader Tony: YES! Finally the wretched Poles are within range – get ready men! Aim… FIRE!!! Uh – the missile went over their heads! RELOAD!!! Crewmember Bert: Sir, they are coming at us fast. Tony: I SAY RELOAD!!! Bert: Ohkaay, but they are charging us now! Tony: ARRGH Catapult: CRASH, then a general clatter of horses and men clashing, fighting, screaming… Then silence
- With the catapult out of the picture, it is once again time for a flanking manoeuvre and once again to the right
- And once again a charge into the spears as they are turning to meet us. The second unit of spears abandon all hope of flanking and try to charge us through their friends. Once again more than one spearman dies from an arrow in the back.
- And soon the general is dead, causing the archers to rout. They are all relentlessly followed by our men and not one archer makes it to the edge of the map. Two down, two to go.
- Then general melee continues – at this point I was afraid to dart out and charge again, as I had less than 20 retainers left and usually 3-4 gets trapped. So we just duked it out until …
- And then to the hour of judgement: Can battle behaviour give your generals the virtue Natural Leader.
- NOOOO: BUSTED! Not only did Buster lead every charge, he even killed 173 men and gained a personal valor of 6. He became a Field Defence Specialist and a 8 star general (4 base, one from province, three from virtue), but NOT a Natural Leader. As a side note he also didn’t become a Great Warrior. Which means that this virtue must be gained as the general enters the game, just like Natural Leader
- And this concludes this episode of Mythbuster: Total War, we hope it was a pleasure to follow us – and there might just maybe be another episode down the road, who knows.
- Good night, and be careful out there
- Squire, you’re such a cliché
- Sorry my lord
/KotR
05-31-2009, 00:21
dragula42
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
:D lol I love it,
and also what an amazing last battle! I never thought it would have been possible a mere 40 men vs that whole rebel army! You are a very good player, unfourtunately I've never put that much thought into my battles :( for this total war version or shogun, I got pretty creative in the Rome and MTW2 games but that was it.
It's inspiring!
Are there more myths for buster to test? or where there previous methods that he has?
I love the banter.
05-31-2009, 01:46
Martok
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Well done, KotR! A pity the myth was pretty much confirmed as busted, but it was an entertaining read nonetheless. Thank you for that, and for taking the time to carry out your little "experiment". :bow:
05-31-2009, 05:36
HopAlongBunny
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Thank you KOTR
Another myth into the "dustbin of history"; an entertaining read as well.
To be followed by: Verbal Abuse and The Squire, My Adventures with Buster D. Knight?
05-31-2009, 08:33
Ironside
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Hmm, then either some test condition were wrong or the leader upgrade can happen at random with extremely low odds.
Anyway, killer instinct is supposed to be earned by the general personally killing 40 fighting soldiers (not routers) in a single combat. Seems to be almost impossible to gain unless you do auto-calc. This one is seen quite often and some people claim to get it upgraded quite a bit. Got a random gain as well though.
Great warrior is rumoured to be gained by the general personally killing princes or kings. Never seen any evidence on this one though.
05-31-2009, 09:01
Knight of the Rose
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Thanks for some more details on the myths Ironside. In battle 10 Buster scored 29 personal kills INCLUDING routers. And that was his highscore. So the "40 kills in one battle" myth is not busted by this experiment.
And there were no kings or princes in the rebel stacks, so Great Warrior has NOT been busted either.
Last: Are you questioning the appearance of Natural Leader, or the Upgrade (can't remember the name of NL 2). Buster didn't have NL, and he didn't gain it. The only possible flaw in the setup would be that in a couple of the battles Buster wasn't the first individual soldier to score a kill. But to ensure that is almost impossible, and even then - if the trait was "gainable" - Buster should have had it from one of the other engagements.
/KotR
EDIT: Just browsed through my logfiles, and I must say it is quite difficult for one man to score 40 kills. Only in one instance did I have a Byz. lancer that scored 58, but almost half of them must have been routers.
06-01-2009, 08:43
Ironside
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight of the Rose
Last: Are you questioning the appearance of Natural Leader, or the Upgrade (can't remember the name of NL 2). Buster didn't have NL, and he didn't gain it. The only possible flaw in the setup would be that in a couple of the battles Buster wasn't the first individual soldier to score a kill. But to ensure that is almost impossible, and even then - if the trait was "gainable" - Buster should have had it from one of the other engagements.
Not sure, it might very well be that the upgrade has another trigger than the appearence. Otherwise it is something else. Pehaps that it needs to be attacks or the size of the army under command.
To have only one data point is annoying. I know that it was an upgrade as I had that screenshot for years (now sadly lost in a format C:).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight of the Rose
EDIT: Just browsed through my logfiles, and I must say it is quite difficult for one man to score 40 kills. Only in one instance did I have a Byz. lancer that scored 58, but almost half of them must have been routers.
True, IIRC the ones that upgraded it auto attacked the peasant hordes rebellions of version 1.1. Not sure were the number 40 actually came from. It is possible in the larger battles.
06-03-2009, 11:17
Caliburn
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
I once trained a super-tank Varangian Guardsman out of a residual Byzantine Stack. He had high armour and could take out about 70 enemy soldiers before getting too exhausted to lift his axe. He didn't gain Killer Instinct or Great Warrior or Natural Leader, only stars, valour and attacker/defender virtues. But maybe I just got the scraps from the barrel or something.
06-03-2009, 18:46
Axalon
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
Hi guys, perhaps I could fill in some of the blanks here…?
First of all, excellent thread and very entertaining one as well – so thanks a bunch to KotR for his efforts here. I loved the whole concept and particularly the dialog between the squire and the lord. Also the whole TV-show setup – great take! Prequel! Prequel! Prequel! The popcorn industry wants it! The business department and producers wants it! And, the audience wants it! We all want it…. :laugh4:
To business then….
Natural leader
---------------------
Now as for the “Natural Leader”-trait, I can only say this; it requires a king in order to get it thru actions or to make it evolve into higher levels. Don’t ask me why, that is just how things are as far as my experiences goes. It seems to replace the “Killer Instinct”-trait that is valid for regular generals. It can be gained by spawned heirs, unless they become kings they will never advance in this trait – only kings can do that it seems.
Great Warrior
---------------------
As for the “Great Warrior”-trait, I have never ever managed to get it thru actions or get it to evolve further. To put in words of drama and crappy poetry, “I have been the slayer of a thousand kings” and still I have never got this trait. I have had killer-generals that have indeed killed 5-6 princes and a king or two as well – personally (solo units). Thus I am inclined to say that this trait can not be gained thru some actions - only by random on spawned heirs….
Killer Instinct
---------------------
Now with this trait things are different (with the exception of kings). This trait you can get thru actions and you can get it to evolve as well. Now to kill off the false claim that you will have to kill this and that much, I did an experiment for reference to show it. I took one of my old killer generals (7 men, royal knights) and attacked some rebel-rabble of approximately 1900 men (c:a 500 light cavalry, 400 spearmen and about 1000 peasants etc. Rebel genaral was 4 stars and there was about 3-4 other units with stars as well). My unit killed over 800 men before the rebels gave up and fled the field in terror.... :laugh4:
Anyway, here is a battle-tag to prove my ghastly deeds....
I think we can all safely assume that the general personally killed at least 100 out of these, probably a lot more. All this was done on expert-difficulty and all he got was the “daring attacker”-trait (or whatever it’s called in raw MTW, its all hardcoded so it matters little what the actual nametag is) and little else. His “killer instinct”-level 2 did not improve, nor did he get any “natural leader” (as I said before only king can get that trait thru actions).
Now, there are three ways to get Killer Instinct….
Spawned heirs who get it as a random trait.
Auto calculating some insane battle. You have something like 150 men against 2000-3000 enemies (it can not just be rabble either because that usually don’t work) or stuff like that.
Thru actions in battle, usually and most successfully by applying what I call the “Killer Instinct”-formula.
The safest and most sure way (not certain however) to get the “Killer Instinct”-trait thru actions are to do the formula, as in this….
Select your candidate….
Have him serve your faction for 20 years or so.
Fight at least 10 battles before you try to apply the formula – not as a commanding general mind you.
When the time is right to apply the formula attack/defend in a battle with another higher ranking general.
Let that commanding general die in the battle…
Fight on, and preferably bravely with your candidate. Doing massive damage to the enemy. If you attack you must win. If you defend it matters little, but a retreat is probably safer to secure the “killer”-trait….
Ensure that your candidate survives all this….
Get the reaction of the formula and inspect your likely and brand new “Killer”-trait after the battle. It is not guaranteed to work but it usually does…..
If you want the trait to evolve, just do step 4-8 all over again… This is how I hone my killer generals and they don’t even have to be heirs either. Apply the formula and they usually get it, if not, try again at some later point and then it happens….
The ultimate slaughter king - theory….
Technically and theoretically speaking it should be possible to create a king with “Great Warrior”, “Killer instinct” and “Natural Leader”-traits all the same time. King Ultimate I, in short. It requires an heir with the Great Warrior trait that has been thru the “Killer Instinct”- formula and has later been crowned king and then do a real big and crazy battle which should grant him a “Natural Leader”-trait (involving at least 5000+, or a crazy killer-instinct-style auto calc. that should work as well). Thus, Great Warrior + Killer Instinct + Natural leader. When he becomes king he can not advance in the “Killer Instinct”-trait, only in the “Natural Leader”- trait. As long as he is not king, it is the other way around.
- Cheers
----------
Please note that all this is based on MTW V.1.1, it might be diffrent in VI....
06-04-2009, 05:52
Roark
Re: Mythbuster: Natural Leadership
KOTR: Awesome AWESOME screenshots!! You are an artist, sir!
Thanks a buncharoony for a very entertaining thread.
