DRM Makes Pirates of Us All

Fascinating report on a new study showing that DRM enrages everyone to the point where law-abiding consumers will consider (and commit) acts of piracy to avoid it. This does not surprise me.

According to the first empirical study of its kind in the UK, by Cambridge law professor Patricia Akester, it's the former. DRM is so rage-inducing, even to ordinary, legal users of content, that it can even drive the blind to download illegal electronic Bibles. [...]

The study confirms what anyone who has ever wanted to rip a DVD to their computer or iPod could have told you: DRM, coupled with anticircumvention laws, makes pirates of us all.

Akester offers some possible solutions to the problem. They are worth reading, but they are also unlikely to be implemented for years. In the meantime, copyright exceptions for the blind, libraries, teachers, and for fair use will continue to be limited by a crafty mixture of code and law.

Of course, as Bright points out, the massive lobbying, legislative, legal, and technical effort that underlies all these DRM regimes does so little to stop piracy that we'd be tempted to laugh at the folly of it all if we weren't already weeping.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...he_ferrett.jpg

I agree with Lemur. If you really want to stop piracy, have a system like Steam or measures that allow law-bidding users to get the product and even put it on multiple machines they might use as well.

They make too many demands to get you to fork out more money, but not enough compromises. There are games for example that are simply not worth the money they are charging and should actually price it in relation to work that is required and standard demanded.

Steam? Ugh. The trend for games to force downloads of patches is growing, as is the number of patches that breaks more than it fixes (especially for those of us who view the game as buying the engine and spend more time playing mods).

~:smoking:

what they should do is a steam-like program that needs your permission to download patches. :yes:

Patches can be turned off. So the point isn't really a point.

The benefits however are a DRM-free system (other than Steam itself) where you can get all your updates, download games onto any computer without the need of disks and all sorts features and benefits. If all other games used the platform as well, it would really encourage the growth of legitimate gaming.

Compared with other DRM such as EA's DRM system they forced everyone to comply with, with Spore, where you could only install the game 3 times then it no longer worked. Filled your computer full of spyware and other programmes that couldn't even connect to the internet through a proxy, so the game doesn't even work in the first place. The list goes on.

I like disks. I don't need an internet connection. I can reinstall inside of a day as its on DVD. I don't need my HDD containing every game I might play as I have a DVD folder. I often burn mods I like onto DVDs to store with them in case I can't get them again.

I like the idea that once one has downloaded additions a torrent client distributes it to others to take load off the servers as well as get hold of older content. But when I get it I want control of how I store it.

Right up there with the fact backup DVD movies play the movies right away, whereas the originals faff for ages with intros, warnings, disclaimers and other drivel.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

I like disks. I don't need an internet connection. I can reinstall inside of a day as its on DVD. I don't need my HDD containing every game I might play as I have a DVD folder. I often burn mods I like onto DVDs to store with them in case I can't get them again.

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:yes:
That is definitely my preferred way of getting a game.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

The benefits however are a DRM-free system (other than Steam itself)

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Steam is DRM.

I on the other hand dislike Disk. You get burdened with trying to store them, you got to find them, especially as I am never in the same location, I have to wait or held-up if I have to go out of my way to go and get disks. The best way is a service such as Steam where I can just download within an hour tops have it all working and fully up-to-date.

If the game gets deleted, I can just re-download it if I want to return to it.

However, I also do own an External 1 Terrabyte Hard-drive where I keep .ISO copies and movies, etc.

Gamersgate owns Steam at any time of the day. No silly downloader, just buy, dl and play 0% hassle in a matter of minutes. I pity those who play Empire with Steam...

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Originally Posted by Beskar

If the game gets deleted, I can just re-download it if I want to return to it.

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Assuming Valve is still around as a company when you try to revisit. Any game requiring a internet server is just a rental. You can be denied access at any time, for any reason.

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Originally Posted by Christopher Burgoyne

I pity those who play Empire with Steam...

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Um, whether you bought it on disks or not, you have to use Steam to play Empire. Maybe I'm not understanding the comment ...

I really dislike Steam, it has caused me countless problems, and irritates me much.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

I on the other hand dislike Disk. You get burdened with trying to store them, you got to find them, especially as I am never in the same location, I have to wait or held-up if I have to go out of my way to go and get disks. The best way is a service such as Steam where I can just download within an hour tops have it all working and fully up-to-date.

If the game gets deleted, I can just re-download it if I want to return to it.

However, I also do own an External 1 Terrabyte Hard-drive where I keep .ISO copies and movies, etc.

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not true anymore. most games on cd only need you to use the disk for installation. Crysis, ETW (disk version), and Company of Heroes.
as of last year, they needed internet connection to play without a disk, as is the case with CoH, but now with Crysis Warhead and Crysis Wars, you dont need the disk even if you arent connected to the internet.
all this makes life easier for us gamers who use laptops, like me, who doesnt want to carry around disks. as of now, i have 4 games on my laptop, and only 1 disk, which i keep in the cd drive: Crysis, CoH, ETW and Battlefield 2142 (which needs a disk to play).
works for me.
also, disks are better for the people, like me, who have somewhat slow internet connections, who dont want to wait an eternity for the game to download.

Sure, but its annoying when you have that OLD 10 year game that you want to play but its damn too damaged to read Autorun.exe.

would 10-year old games be on steam? i never used steam until ETW.

my impression is that with the new "no-cd" games, you can safely store your cds for future need, like in 10 years.

Actually, I've had some old game CDs go bad. One of them couldn't have been more than seven years old. Let us all bless Good Old Games for keeping the flame, or I would never have been able to replay Fallout.

I just had to track down the full comic version of the picture you posted in the OP. Normally kids' mascots don't look like they're on so much crack.

CR

They're also not normally as ironic as a weasel representing a copyright law propaganda machine.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Um, whether you bought it on disks or not, you have to use Steam to play Empire. Maybe I'm not understanding the comment ...

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Yep. I pity those who play Empire at all. Because it's a crappy game with a crappy protection scheme.

lets leave game commentary out of this, shall we?

Problem I have with Steam -
I want the change the account name.
I want to reclaim a game from another account I forgot about years ago.

Both are not possible. :sad:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Actually, I've had some old game CDs go bad. One of them couldn't have been more than seven years old. Let us all bless Good Old Games for keeping the flame, or I would never have been able to replay Fallout.

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Dude... thanks for that link. I've been hunting an old copy of "Going Postal". (1)

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Dude... thanks for that link. I've been hunting an old copy of "Going Postal". (1)

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No! No! No! You are supposed to be very offended that the game is offered. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Problem I have with Steam -
I want the change the account name.

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Actually, you can change the name everybody sees, even if you can't change your login name.

File / Settings / Friends / Nickname

Here's my biggest question for Steam -- what happens to people who go to places where online connections may not happen for weeks or months? Merchant marine, for instance, or soldiers on deployment? How long can you milk the "offline mode"?

It works fine. Just don't be looking to use the multiplayer features though.

I do not see why I should not be able to roll back patches, since often the "fixes" result in serious CTD errors. I like being able to reinstall and patch the game as much as I want.

This silly Steam business is more like renting the game than actually buying it.

You are talking game specific, aka, E:TW.

Don't brand Steam bad because CA can't code for :daisy:. Valve has one of the biggest developer studios and its games are realised also bug-free other a couple of balancing issues for online play.

With Steam, you aren't renting, you own the account, which you even if you got a brand new computer, you can just sign in and install games on the fly. If anything, it is closer to Xbox Live witht he friends list, etc etc, with ultimately your games pretty much on download for ever because it will be a long time before the system ever goes down.

There is nothign wrong with web piracy when it comes to copyright infringement. I wish that more people would just do it so that it becomes an insignificant blip. Kill copyright with indiference. Stream movies and music - don't download them. Crack games with DRM so that they can be played on any computer, at any time. The digital age has killed this absurd notion, but it is still writhing there, seemingly with life.

They are still demanding your money even though you don't need to pay them anymore. A better system for everyone will rise up from the ashes.



PS - I actually like steam. It is a clever and fair way to regulate both your property and the rights of the company. I agree with Beskar that Empire stinks becasue it stinks. The patches lately have done a pretty decent job of fixing issues taking the game closer to what we all know it is, but steam has nothing to do with the smell of turd. Why do 2nd and 1st rate ships cause the game to crash if you click on them? Why do blocks of trading convoys becoem unusable if you add directly to them without removing them from the trading zone first? Why has nobody ever seen or fought the Pueblo Indians due to CTD? The world may never know. I can't blame steam for this.

The industry needs to change, yes. Most logical route would be going to way of Stream, and other various things such as BBC iPlayer with streaming media. The same should be done with music.

Punishing legitimate users isn't the way to stop privacy, it only encourages it.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Actually, I've had some old game CDs go bad. One of them couldn't have been more than seven years old. Let us all bless Good Old Games for keeping the flame, or I would never have been able to replay Fallout.

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Yet, GoG won't give me a copy of SWAT 3. If I have the CD key of the game I bought, could I download the game and use the key to play it?

I really dislike all these 'no-cd' stuff...

When I buy a game I want to own the disk. Look at the box on my shelf.

And what will happen when companies like steam go bust? (just take a look at your old games and you will see that most developers/producers/distributors are not bust)

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

I really dislike all these 'no-cd' stuff...

When I buy a game I want to own the disk. Look at the box on my shelf.

And what will happen when companies like steam go bust? (just take a look at your old games and you will see that most developers/producers/distributors are not bust)

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I own the disk. I doubt that anyone here actually downloaded it. That is an added feature if you can't find the physical copy for whatever reason.

If steam closed down we would still be able to use it. All Steam does is add features that benefit the consumer and strengthen the standing of the developers. There is nothign draconian about Steam. You don't need to be connected to the internet more than once, but if you are it downloads and applys patches for you (unless you don't want it to).

Steam is 30 times better than programs like gator and all that spyware nonsense. You can either view ads for games everytime you log onto steam or you can put a shortcut icon onto your desktop to avoid the ad screen completely. Theve got a self contained online gamers hub with instant messaging capability and an area to write reviews, show your game collection - a mini gamespot.

Additionally, If you go between computers often you can still play online because of the personalized global account. If you forgot to bring the disc with you to install the game, they've got you covered there too.

I don't share the contempt of Steam. Added features that are simple to use and don't slow down your computer while protecting the developers investment is a glimpse of the future. Making life less convenient like the music industry is doing is a glimpse of their funeral.

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

I really dislike all these 'no-cd' stuff...

When I buy a game I want to own the disk. Look at the box on my shelf.

And what will happen when companies like steam go bust? (just take a look at your old games and you will see that most developers/producers/distributors are not bust)

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If Steam goes bust then it's because people didn't buy enough from them.
a lot of other publishers and developers went bankrupt because people copied too many of their games/programs which is why the others invented this DRM stuff in the first place.....
I don't even think we would have this DRM stuff around if it wasn't for the numerous freeloaders.
And now they try to retroactively justify their freeloading because of the evil DRM, but they already copied discettes when there was no DRM around yet.

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Originally Posted by Husar

If Steam goes bust then it's because people didn't buy enough from them.
a lot of other publishers and developers went bankrupt because people copied too many of their games/programs which is why the others invented this DRM stuff in the first place.....
I don't even think we would have this DRM stuff around if it wasn't for the numerous freeloaders.
And now they try to retroactively justify their freeloading because of the evil DRM, but they already copied discettes when there was no DRM around yet.

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Freeloading is fine - it means people are using your product. If too many people are freeloading and not enough are buying it means that you:

A) Need to make a better product because the one that you have people use but it isn't good enough to command their purchase.

and/or

B) Need to make your copywrited material more secure.


I never hesitate to pay big bucks for the products that have value. It doesn't even cross my mind to download a cracked copy of Total war because I care if they do well so that they will make more titles. I also don't want a hassle in playign the game and having to find all sorts of cracks etc.

The logical leap that too many companies take is that simply because people are freeloading their product that they would otherwise be buyers if it were harder to get for free. That just isn't true in so many instances. The product is popular because it is free - people learn that they like it. They may have never bought it in the first place, but they use it because it is free. Instead of looking at these people like criminals, view them as samplers. The correct response is to build on the treasure trove of unexpected popularity. Make the product better, create more online opportunities that require authenticity and then you will find that you have a stronger foundation and mroe feedback than you could have ever hoped for. Programs like Steam help here too.


Music has reverted to petty bullying rather than evolution. They should focus on the aspects of music that cannot easily or comfortably be copied; Concerts, merchandise and the associated financial opportunities that come with. The music is free now. They need to cope with this.

DRM will never destroy them. (Shameless post just to post something I enjoy posting)

Is it illegal, for example, copying a track of a CD you own to your musical cellhpone?

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Originally Posted by Caius

Is it illegal, for example, copying a track of a CD you own to your musical cellhpone?

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Yes, this is illegal. Or so the music labels would argue. They have claimed in court that ripping your own CDs to your computer is a crime they choose not to prosescute, but a crime nonetheless.

Which is why I have no sympathy for them.

As some-one mentioned, concerts, etc are around £100 per ticket (depending on how popular they are) with the simple staging, tons of adverts they plaster, the merchandise, etc, A musician can easily make a lot of money, so it isn't a case of "feeding a starving artist".

It is also far more practical use of being a musician. As far as I remember, they get paid to do music, not paid to play a song then get lots from royalties and their children getting lots from royalties never needing to work ever again.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Which is why I have no sympathy for them.

As some-one mentioned, concerts, etc are around £100 per ticket (depending on how popular they are) with the simple staging, tons of adverts they plaster, the merchandise, etc, A musician can easily make a lot of money, so it isn't a case of "feeding a starving artist".

It is also far more practical use of being a musician. As far as I remember, they get paid to do music, not paid to play a song then get lots from royalties and their children getting lots from royalties never needing to work ever again.

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EXACTLY

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Yes, this is illegal. Or so the music labels would argue. They have claimed in court that ripping your own CDs to your computer is a crime they choose not to prosescute, but a crime nonetheless.

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are you serious? so putting songs from my cd to my ipod is illegal? :jawdrop:

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

are you serious? so putting songs from my cd to my ipod is illegal? :jawdrop:

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Same :flower:, same smell.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

are you serious? so putting songs from my cd to my ipod is illegal?

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Yes, not only is that illegal (in the esteemed opinion of the RIAA) but your criminal life began even earlier, when your ripped your CD to your computer. Read it and weep.

The industry's lawyer in the case, Ira Schwartz, argues in a brief filed earlier this month that the MP3 files Howell made on his computer from legally bought CDs are "unauthorized copies" of copyrighted recordings.

"I couldn't believe it when I read that," says Ray Beckerman, a New York lawyer who represents six clients who have been sued by the RIAA. "The basic principle in the law is that you have to distribute actual physical copies to be guilty of violating copyright. But recently, the industry has been going around saying that even a personal copy on your computer is a violation."

RIAA's hard-line position seems clear. Its Web site says: "If you make unauthorized copies of copyrighted music recordings, you're stealing. You're breaking the law and you could be held legally liable for thousands of dollars in damages."

Note that this is the trade association's position, and it has never been tested in court or confirmed in law. I'm just illustrating how ridiculous their positions are.

You dirty criminal.

that is :daisy: upped!

They make no sense at all.
"It is forbidden the reproduction of this CD"

OMGZ WE ARE SO GUILTY, TEH SHAME!!!

Yes, dirty criminal. Have you ever heard the disks? You have commited crimes. Oh yes, you are going to jail, so is the rest of the people that once heard a song from a disk.

We all are innocent. We all are guilty.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Freeloading is fine - it means people are using your product. If too many people are freeloading and not enough are buying it means that you:

A) Need to make a better product because the one that you have people use but it isn't good enough to command their purchase.

and/or

B) Need to make your copywrited material more secure.

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Looks like they went for option B because maybe option A is neither very realistic nor very economic given how complicated software is nowadays. That doesn't mean I like bugs but if the company isn't profitable it will go bankrupt. The developers of the Witcher tried to make it a bug-free software but IIRC just installing the big update that was supposed to achieve that caused quite a few problems itself.
It's generally something i would support but I'm pretty sure there would be loads of people freeloading on good software just as well simply because not paying is always more convenient for them than paying.

Lemur's quotes from the RIAA are pretty much bollox of course since we've always been told that we buy the right to use their stuff, not the right to own that medium, so essentially when I got the right to use it, I got the right to use it and I will use it on whatever medium I like or not buy it. I'm certainly not going to buy a song three times, once on CD, one PC MP3 and once from iTunes for my iPhone. By the way iTunes songs work both on the Pc and the iPod/iPhone, so why do they allow that but not copying a CD to your PC? Double standard and full of holes that argument I say. And no, I'm not buying my movies on Blu-Ray AND iTunes either just to have the HD and a mobile version. :wall:

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

that is :daisy: upped!

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No. *Points to last link* YOU! ARE! A PIRATE!

using DRM to stop piracy is like making marijuana illegal. It doesn't work. people still buy weed and smoke it, and people still pirate games.

You're just saying that because you love both marijuana and digital piracy. The two really aren't all that alike to me. Neither in their application nor in the solution.

no actually i'm serious. What was it that Einstein said? oh yeah.

nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced.

Neither of those laws can be enforced. like i said, people still smoke weed, and people still pirate software, and it is impossible to stop people from doing either one.

They can arrest people for both, but for every 1 person they arrest, there's 30 more that they didn't catch.

AlexanderSextus, if we follow that logic, then the prohibition of alcohol would have led to a rise in organized crime, which didn't ... oh, nevermind.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

AlexanderSextus, if we follow that logic, then the prohibition of alcohol would have led to a rise in organized crime, which didn't ... oh, nevermind.

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Rofl Lemur, exactly my point.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus

no actually i'm serious. What was it that Einstein said? oh yeah.

nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced.

Neither of those laws can be enforced. like i said, people still smoke weed, and people still pirate software, and it is impossible to stop people from doing either one.

They can arrest people for both, but for every 1 person they arrest, there's 30 more that they didn't catch.

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If we follow that logic further, why outlaw murders? 50% go scott free and even with the most severe punishments in the western world it doesn't seem to solve the problem. (Yes i recognize that the issues are very different).

I don't care about marijuana legalization, but I do care about digital piracy issues. I don't see them as connected through anything other than the black market. Even then, the majority of file sharing is free, so the black market doesn't even enter into it.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

If we follow that logic further, why outlaw murders? 50% go scott free and even with the most severe punishments in the western world it doesn't seem to solve the problem. (Yes i recognize that the issues are very different).

I don't care about marijuana legalization, but I do care about digital piracy issues. I don't see them as connected.

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Precisely my thoughts. Corruption is rampant, so do we make it legal? So was spousal abuse and racism/segregation. Do we make all that legal? No. We eventually eradicated it to tolerable levels. legalising something is the quitter's way out. I still support legalisation of cannabis, as there are hundreds more reasons for it, despite myself loathing marijuana.

Given enough effort, alcohol could be criminalised and brought down to low levels of consumption. One has to be wise, ruthless, and persistent. Stop imposing prison terms; instead impose profitable fines. Constantly inject methanol-adulterated ethanol into the market to poison people and scare the rest. Brainwash the children. Turn the media against alcohol. Institute death penalties for large-scale smuggling. Promise bounties to snitches. Organise large-scale undercover policemen to sell alcohol and promptly arrest the buyers. The exorbitant and widespread fines will finance much of this.

The only problem are the alcohol addicts. But I suppose methanol will soon take care of them...



Now, all this is draconian and unrealistic in US. But in Russia, with its authoritarian government, it will do. Most of all, this should start with the indoctrination of children, so that they will grow up relatively sober, and only then institute worse measures.

Given enough time i think you could outlaw alcohol fairly successfully. Look at people's opinions on marijuana, that is, uninformed people's view on marijuana, hell even my mum, who has tried it, was shocked and upset when she found out i smoked weed... Alcohol though was acceptable for some reason...

Until i read up on the subject myself and educated her on the subject i swear she thought marijuana was worse than alcohol. If you can convince a relatively bright woman who is intellectually intrested and has a university degree of this madness then given enough time im sure you could ban a drug (alcohol) successfully that actually is really harmful...

I don't completely buy the legalise it because we can't stop it argument... it does have strong merit though...

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

If we follow that logic further, why outlaw murders? 50% go scott free and even with the most severe punishments in the western world it doesn't seem to solve the problem. (Yes i recognize that the issues are very different).

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Yup, you're conflating the economic with the violent. When people want something badly enough, someone will provide the service. It's true of weed, it's true of prostitution, it's true of gambling. If you make them illegal extra-legal entities will step in and profit.

Murder, rape and assault are not markets with buyers and sellers. They exist in an entirely different sphere.

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Given enough time i think you could outlaw alcohol fairly successfully. Look at people's opinions on marijuana, that is, uninformed people's view on marijuana, hell even my mum, who has tried it, was shocked and upset when she found out i smoked weed... Alcohol though was acceptable for some reason...

Until i read up on the subject myself and educated her on the subject i swear she thought marijuana was worse than alcohol. If you can convince a relatively bright woman who is intellectually intrested and has a university degree of this madness then given enough time im sure you could ban a drug (alcohol) successfully that actually is really harmful...

I don't completely buy the legalise it because we can't stop it argument... it does have strong merit though...

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Alcohol has thousands of years of history behind it, marijuana has a few decades. I think that makes a huge difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

If we follow that logic further, why outlaw murders? 50% go scott free and even with the most severe punishments in the western world it doesn't seem to solve the problem. (Yes i recognize that the issues are very different).

I don't care about marijuana legalization, but I do care about digital piracy issues. I don't see them as connected through anything other than the black market. Even then, the majority of file sharing is free, so the black market doesn't even enter into it.

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Murder is a clear cut crime because it has a victim. Smoking weed is a victimless crime. Granted, Piracy is not a victimless crime, but lets look at how many people have been arrested for File Sharing vs. how many people are sharing files, then it becomes clear that the laws against file sharing are unenforceable just as the laws against marijuana are unenforceable. Hell, in some southeast asian countries, marijuana possession is punishable by DEATH, and yet people even smoke it there.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Precisely my thoughts. Corruption is rampant, so do we make it legal? So was spousal abuse and racism/segregation. Do we make all that legal? No. We eventually eradicated it to tolerable levels. legalising something is the quitter's way out. I still support legalisation of cannabis, as there are hundreds more reasons for it, despite myself loathing marijuana.

Given enough effort, alcohol could be criminalised and brought down to low levels of consumption. One has to be wise, ruthless, and persistent. Stop imposing prison terms; instead impose profitable fines. Constantly inject methanol-adulterated ethanol into the market to poison people and scare the rest. Brainwash the children. Turn the media against alcohol. Institute death penalties for large-scale smuggling. Promise bounties to snitches. Organise large-scale undercover policemen to sell alcohol and promptly arrest the buyers. The exorbitant and widespread fines will finance much of this.

The only problem are the alcohol addicts. But I suppose methanol will soon take care of them...

Now, all this is draconian and unrealistic in US. But in Russia, with its authoritarian government, it will do. Most of all, this should start with the indoctrination of children, so that they will grow up relatively sober, and only then institute worse measures.

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Spousal abuse and segregation are violations of a person's civil rights. Piracy (especially if ripping songs to your iPod is piracy) doesn't seem to violate anyone's civil rights. Alcohol consumption would go up even if it was illegal and the enforcement was attempted by an authoritarian regime.

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Originally Posted by Mooks

Alcohol has thousands of years of history behind it, marijuana has a few decades. I think that makes a huge difference.

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LOL we have found primitive pipes in caves and carbon dated them to the stone age and one of the reasons we were able to date them is because there was marijuana residue in them and we carbon dated that with it. We have found thousand year old burials that contained cannabis. It has been used medically and recreationally for thousands of years.

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Originally Posted by Mooks

Alcohol has thousands of years of history behind it, marijuana has a few decades. I think that makes a huge difference.

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Very true, but racism has a history even older than alcohol, and look what happened to it now. Not to mention racism is an ideological thing, which you can think but not say, whereas alcohol is sort of obvious, as you have to imbue yourself with it.

Racism is not gone, but thanks to massive efforts such as media, pop culture, brainwashing, ostracising, teaching, etc, etc it is thankfully on its way to the ash-heap of history. Just look at the new generation. Fewer and fewer people continue with their hatred. Prejudice may exist, but as long as it does not influence people's decisions very much, it is OK.

Alcohol has thousands of years of history behind it, marijuana has a few decades. I think that makes a huge difference.

Im fairly sure weed is older... the reason for the ban in the first place, at least in the US, was race, I can't remember what group but some ethnic group was rather fond of weed and the goverment wasn't fond of them...

So weed got the chop...

After that it get kept illegal becase the amount of propaganda the goverment put out about it, you would struggle to make it legal because so many people haven't actually got a clue about it, you would have to have a long goverment propaganda campaign the other way

And this would be the way to get drink, though the initial resistance would be tougher, because its more common. Enough goverment propaganda and you get kids thinking... eww alcohol is a drug whilst thinking weed is just normal... basically the opposite of what they are now...

I can't tell you the number of people i have had to explain that alcohol is a 'drug' the same way drugs (as in the illegal ones) are a 'drug'. Some people still refuse to believe it though... 'Im not a druggie!'

I remember being a child and saying im never going to do drugs, because basically saying that is drummed into you, it never even occured to me at the time that alcohol was a drug... and thats how quite a few young people think....

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

I can't tell you the number of people i have had to explain that alcohol is a 'drug' the same way drugs (as in the illegal ones) are a 'drug'. Some people still refuse to believe it though... 'Im not a druggie!'

I remember being a child and saying im never going to do drugs, because basically saying that is drummed into you, it never even occured to me at the time that alcohol was a drug... and thats how quite a few young people think....

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I prefer the word narcotic. "Drug" can carry various connotation, "narcotic" has only one.

Anyway, weed may be older, but it has not firmly planted itself in our culture until fairly recently. Sure, it was used before, but by other cultures or in obscurity.

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Sure, it was used before, but by other cultures or in obscurity.

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Wasn't thomas jefferson quoted saying:

some of my best times have been sitting outside smoking hemp and gazing out as far as the eye can see?

or something like that?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus

Wasn't thomas jefferson quoted saying:

some of my best times have been sitting outside smoking hemp and gazing out as far as the eye can see?

or something like that?

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Your point? Marijuana has not been particularly noted back then.

I hope the mods do not have trouble with us veering this slightly off-topic. I always believed that threads have the right to change in topic as long as it is all kept constructive. After all, such is the nature of conversations. One cannot speak too long on one topic before they move on.

maybe banquo could change the title to "is piracy a victimless crime?" or something.

... and the law of unintended consequences marches on ...

When the Swedish Pirate Party was founded in early 2006, the majority of the mainstream press were skeptical, with some simply laughing it away. But they were wrong to dismiss this political movement out of hand. Today, the Pirate Party accomplished what some believed to be the impossible, by securing a seat in the European Parliament.

With 99.9% of the districts counted the Pirates have 7.1 percent of the votes, beating several established parties. This means that the Pirate Party will get at least one, but most likely two of the 18 (+2) available seats Sweden has at the European Parliament.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus

maybe banquo could change the title to "is piracy a victimless crime?" or something.

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I don't think there's the need. As Aemilius Paulus notes, discussions that move into related tangents are the nature of forums like the Backroom.

It is only when a discussion veers off-topic to a substantial degree (or becomes heated because of a controversial point that sparks off a spiral of irrelevance) that we are wont to steer things back to topic or close the thread.