Injecting French "colour" into KotF

This first post is updated to record where we are in terms of choosing the right French/French flavoured words for some key game concepts.

For most concepts, players are free to use either Anglicised or French names - the latter are given in brackets.

Four starter Houses:

Burgundy - capital: Dijon; home of the Burgundians
Lorraine - capital: Reims; home of the Lorrains
Aquitaine - capital: Toulouse; home of the Aquitains
Bretagne - capital: Rennes; home of the Bretons

Parliamentary terms

We meet in a Council of the Realm (Conseil du Royaume).
All nobles are Councillors (Conseillers).
Every session, the day to day running of the Kingdom is overseen by the Seneschal.
We propose edicts (edits) as our laws
We live according to the rules of our Charter (charte)
We can ammend the Charter by issuing proclamations

Feudal ranks

Faction leader is the King (le Roi)
Faction heir is the Dauphin. Other sons of the King are Princes.
Then we have:
Duke (Duc)
Baron
Count (Comte)
Knight (Chevalier)

Original post:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now we have settled on France as the faction, it might be helpful to think about what that implies for the terminology etc used in the game.


Naming the Houses

We start off with five provinces: Toulouse, Dijon, Rennes, Paris and Rheims.
So the obvious allocation is that Paris stays royal (it's central and the capital) while the Houses are formed round the other four Houses:

Dijon - SE
Rheims - NE
Toulouse - SW
Rennes - NW

If we go for that, what should we call the factions? And what do we call the people of that faction?

I propose:

Dijon - Burgundy; Burgundians. Stretches a little east, but evocative. Yes, there is a rebel province of that name, but presumably we have aspirations so I am not sure it matters too much.

Rheims - Bretagne or Brittany; Bretons.

Toulouse - Gascogne or Gascony; Gascons. Stretches a little west, but evocative. Possibly not as prominent historicall as some of the other names for other Houses, but does the trick for me.

Rheims - Campania or Champagne; Campanians. Champagne may be the better name than its alternative Campania, but I can't get over the wine associations. Champagne seems to have been quick important in medieval French history, but unfortunately for us had a Count, not a Duke. Lorraine is a possibility, but is stretching things a bit.


Castles vs cities

There is a potential problem with Toulouse being the only castle - that may advantage the faction with that starter province. We could make Toulouse royal and Paris the basis of a House, but that just feels all wrong to me. What I suggest instead is that the Prince be made head of the Toulouse House - he may be a less partisan Duke than most.


The Dukes

Aside from the King and Prince, there are only two family members and they are both very young (one year old or so). There exist 3 other non-royal generals. Presumably they should be the other three Dukes (along with the Prince). Do we have rules for them to "stewards"? Because I think they should be supplanted by family members when they come of age.

What are we going to do about adopting into the family? The fourth branch of the family tree has not been opened. I would prefer we let it be filled by a child rather than an adoptee. (then the Houses may start off more equal). What do people think?


The Senate

What terminology shall we use for:

The Senate- National Assembly? (Senate or Parliament are also possibles)
The Chancellor - Seneschal? Chief Minister?
The Speaker - President? (do we have a speaker in the rules? I guess the King takes that role)
Senator - Deputy?
Edicts? Laws? - I'd keep with edicts as the term seems to cover both policy decisions (invade Britain!) as well as legislation proper.
Constitution? Charter?
Constitutional Amendments? Charter Amendments?


French or Anglicised names?

To what extent shall we use French vs Anglicised terms? I'd be inclined to leave it to individual players, but it would be interesting know what others prefer as we will probably coalesce around the majority usage. I've emboldened my subjective preference, which is generally for the French version with some exceptions. I'd probably draw the line at including French accents etc, as my keyboard is not set up for them.

King or Roi? vive le Roi!
Prince or Dauphin?
Duke or Duc?
Count or Comte?
Knight or Chevalier?
Battle of or la battaille de?
Brittainy or Bretagne?
Gascony or Gascogne?
Champagne or Campania? - just can't get over the wine associations
Burgundy or Bourgogne? - I prefer the Anglicised for some reason

and if we go for French names, "le" or "the"?


Any other issues?

Anyone think of any other issues to do with injecting French colour and feel into our game?

Naming the Houses

Sounds good.

Castles vs. Cities
Didn't only Swabia and Bavaria start with castles in KotR? I'm pretty sure we can get by with militia early in the game, especially if a house has six units of bodyguards.

The Dukes
Like KotR right? That seems like a good idea.

Instead of the senate, maybe Assembly of the Second Estate. The States-General would have been members of all three estates, and since we are playing members of the nobility, that would put us in the middle category, clergy and commoners comprising the other two.

Iirc, Dauphin was not used until the 1300s to identify the prince.

As for House names, I think we should rather go like this :

Rennes = Bretagne

Toulouse = Navarre

Reims = Either Champagne or Lorraine. The latter would particularly work if we include Metz into the realm fast.

Dijon = Bourgogne seems fine.

As for titles, Seneschal sounds fine for the title of Chancellor

As for the assembly, the assembly of the second-estate was established much latter. At the time, such a thing didn't truly exist but a Conseil Royal (royal Council) or Conseil du Royaume (Council of the Realm) or High Council (Haut Conseil) would be the nearest thing we would have with the members dubbed Conseillers (Councillors).

Edicts should be Edits
Constitution would be Charte (the term constitution didn't appear until the French Revolution).

Amendments should be Proclamations.

I think it might be a good idea to keep to the Anglicised rank names (people had problems with the ranks in LOTR...) but like Seneschal for the rank of Chancellor.

I like Tristan's House names.

I'm not too bothered about holding Dukeships until an FM comes along. I set up the rules to exclude starting RGB Dukes from the requirement to join their new parents' House if adopted. As far as I'm concerned even if adopted into the family tree they would be the heads of their own influential families. I'm open to it being convinced otherwise but at the moment I don't think making several starting players sort of dukes while waiting on fms to come of age adds much to the game, and having all the Houses headed by direct children of the King seems a little off rpwise (granted, Medieval History is not my strong point. Perhaps it isn't so odd). Of course, the Prince will head one of the Houses.

Perhaps discussion of starting House rules (as opposed to things like their names that are more "color") should be done in the rules thread...

Tristan, what words do you think would be suitable as names for the local people of Navarre, Champagne and Lorraine? Like in Kotr, we would talk of Swabians, Austrians etc. I'm assuming Bretons and Burgundians are ok for the other two areas you mentioned.

Navarre would be Navarrais (Navarrians if you want it anglicized) and Either Champenois or Lorrains (the latter being easier for you english speaking people I think)
And Bretons and Burgundians are fine for the purpose of the game.

Btw, Rheims should be called Reims (there has never been an H in it)...

I personally do not care the level of Frenchizing we do, it will always sound English to me...

Anyway, if anyone wants their stories, etc reviewed for the French put in them, I'll gladly oblige...

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Originally Posted by Zim

I like Tristan's House names.

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But will it be Champagne/Champagnois or Lorraine/Lorrains for the House centred on Reims? My preference is Lorraine, I think - both because I think Lorraine was a larger political entity for most of the period (although less loyal to the King) and because of the modern day association of Champagne with the wine.

EDIT: Are you going to edit the settlement names in game, Tristan?

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Originally Posted by econ21

EDIT: Are you going to edit the settlement names in game, Tristan?

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Players who have a settlement can rename it when ever he wants and to what ever he wants.

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(2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can destroy any building in their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can rename any settlement under their control at any time.

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It depends on what people would like... There's not much editing to do aside from Reims/Rheims as stated above. And this can be done in-game by double-clikcing on the city's name in the building/recruitment scroll.

I think we should go for Lorraine/Lorrains rather than Champagne if it has so strong associations for you. But what about Burgundy ? ~:cheers:

Reflecting a bit more on the Houses' names, Toulouse could perhaps be Aquitaine although it would need to unite with Bordeaux to fully bear its historical name much as Reims will have to get Metz before fully becoming Lorraine...

This would give us

Bretagne (Rennes)/ Aquitaine(or Navarre) (Toulouse)/ Bourgogne (Dijon)/ Lorraine (Reims)

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

But what about Burgundy ?

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I am not a wine drinker, so Burgundy does not cause me problems. The association with Charles the Bold is much stronger for me.

Some would argue that Champagne is also a wine but I'm just teasing...

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Some would argue that Champagne is also a wine but I'm just teasing...

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I know it's just it is such a famous wine.

It strikes me that an analogy would be a "Macdonalds" faction in a Scottish game. Although that analogy does show the weakness of my case, as such a clan would be quite a good pick historically.

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Btw, Rheims should be called Reims (there has never been an H in it)...

I personally do not care the level of Frenchizing we do, it will always sound English to me...

Anyway, if anyone wants their stories, etc reviewed for the French put in them, I'll gladly oblige...

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Thank you :bow:

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Reflecting a bit more on the Houses' names, Toulouse could perhaps be Aquitaine although it would need to unite with Bordeaux to fully bear its historical name much as Reims will have to get Metz before fully becoming Lorraine...

This would give us

Bretagne (Rennes)/ Aquitaine(or Navarre) (Toulouse)/ Bourgogne (Dijon)/ Lorraine (Reims)

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I agree with Aquitaine instead of Navarre because of Navarre's heavy association with Spanish culture. Also, IIRC, the Aquitainian Dukes were quite independant. I would also go with Lorraine, simply because of the stronger association with Lotharingia.

And these also set goals for the Houses right out of the gate, and make them richer.

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Originally Posted by econ21

I know it's just it is such a famous wine.

It strikes me that an analogy would be a "Macdonalds" faction in a Scottish game. Although that analogy does show the weakness of my case, as such a clan would be quite a good pick historically.

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I demand fries with that.

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Originally Posted by YLC

Thank you :bow:

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You're welcome

I prefer my original suggestion of Gascony to Aquitaine - it covers a similar area, but Gascons are so much cooler sounding than Aquitainians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascony

Apparently the Duchy of Gascony and that of Aquitaine were united in 1058.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Gascony

Personally, my preferences are based on colour and flavour - I know we are going to be doing violence to the historical nuances by playing M2TW in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Anyway, if anyone wants their stories, etc reviewed for the French put in them, I'll gladly oblige...

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Ditto for me, although I am not a real Frenchman from France. :clown:

As for the House names, I have no preferences really. I guess with sound go with the names that sound best or are the more evocative.

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Originally Posted by econ21

I prefer my original suggestion of Gascony to Aquitaine - it covers a similar area, but Gascons are so much cooler sounding than Aquitainians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascony

Apparently the Duchy of Gascony and that of Aquitaine were united in 1058.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Gascony

Personally, my preferences are based on colour and flavour - I know we are going to be doing violence to the historical nuances by playing M2TW in the first place.

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Whats interesting, is that each House has the ability to harken back to Kingdoms of Old - Gascony/Aquitaine = Visigoths
Bourgogne = Burgundians
Bretagne = Not sure, but there is definite Celtic, Roman, and Norse history to look back to.
Lorraine = Lotharingia

I know I am not necessarily thinking strait, very tired and will be going to bed soon, but I throw my 2 cents in for Aquitaine instead of Gascony, simply because Aquitaine retained significantly higher political relevance throughout the medieval era compared to Gascony which was subsumed by the Duchy of Aquitaine.

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Originally Posted by YLC

...I throw my 2 cents in for Aquitaine instead of Gascony, simply because Aquitaine retained significantly higher political relevance throughout the medieval era compared to Gascony which was subsumed by the Duchy of Aquitaine.

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Scratch what I just said, I agree with Aquitaine now. I dare not say it because Tristan is around but silently I was worried about Aquitaine because I thought it was English for most of the period. However, I have just read this:

The Valois Kings of France, claiming supremacy over Aquitaine, granted the title of Duke to their heirs, the Dauphins.

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Aquitaine

This dovetails perfectly with my suggestion in the first post that the Prince be made Duke of Toulouse - it's the only castle in France at the start, so it seems fitting it should go to the Prince.

EDIT: One interesting feature is how the proposed names imply natural geographic ambitions:

The Aquitanians will want to take English held Aquitaine back.

The Burgundians will want to take rebel Burgundy province back.

The Lorrains will want to take German Alsace-Lorraine back.

The Bretons will want ... to be left alone? to take Great Britain? ... you decide ...

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Originally Posted by YLC

...
Bretagne = Not sure, but there is definite Celtic, Roman, and Norse history to look back to.

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Bretagne - the home of mighty gauls called Asterix and Obelix! :clown:

The Valois line started almost 150 years after the point we are starting the game. So I'm not so sure the precedent is there.

Like econ's structure, like Tristan's names.

Jees a bit of reading after nearly two days. :beam:

I've updated the first post to reflect where I think we are at.

There's been no discussion of it, but out of Tristan's three possible council names - Conseil Royal (royal Council) or Conseil du Royaume (Council of the Realm) or High Council (Haut Conseil) - the middle one sounds best to me. It catches the decentralised feudal vibe more than Royal and the council can't be that high if we are letting every recruitable bodyguard in... :creep:

I also like "Council of the Realm".

The names for the four starting houses sound good to me.:2thumbsup:

Hi guys, I'm finally back after 5 days without internet access.

I like the house names, but I'd also consider naming them after families.

Possibly: Capet, Valois, Plantagenet, and Bourbon, with Capet getting Dijon, Valois Reims, Plantagenet Rennes, and Bourbon Toulouse?

Always thought Lorraine, Burgundy, and Brittany were three of the coolest factions to play in EU3, Aquitane is also good.

I like the Houses proposed by Ignoramus but think geographically themed Houses will work better, as I'm not sure Houses would have much chance of falling along those family lines (which is actually too bad, it would be neat...).

Anglicized names with proper names in brackets works well, I think, given some of the issues with the Greek names in LOTR.

Honestly, I think my input here isn't much needed. I'll take any completed system that lacks any major problems.

I want to thank Tristan for keeping us at least sort of almost authentic (or some reasonable facsimile thereof), a difficult task considering we're playing this in MTW2. :bow:

P.S. I rather like Burgundys, although I must admit I've only had Spanish ones...

There was a major issue with immersion across the board in LotR because the names were too hard to remember and spell.

Apologies to Tristan in advance, but we need to keep that in mind before going too Francaphone, as I believe he is the only French speaker amongst us.

*cough* TheFlax *cough*

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Yes there was a major issue with immersion across the board in LotR because the names were too hard to remember and spell.

Apologies to Tristan in advance, but we need to keep that in mind before going too Francaphone, as I believe he is the only French speaker amongst us.

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No need for apologies... You've all had to bear my certainly not perfect English for years now... :embarassed:

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

No need for apologies... You've all had to bear my certainly not perfect English for years now... :embarassed:

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:laugh4:

Yes, because my English is perfect. Come now Tristan, you speak better English then most Americans I know.

For the record, I would prefer a geographical naming scheme as well.

Oh please Tristan. Your written English is excellent.

The only thing I know how to say in French is:

"Je suis ananas!!" And I need help spelling that right now.:balloon2:

Thanks for the tip Zimmy. I didn't know Flaxywas French. Good to know.

As I'm from belgium, I speak dutch/french and english

with some german and spanish on the side :p
So I don't care either way about the names.

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

I didn't know Flaxywas French. Good to know.

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He's not. He's CANADIAN :laugh4:

Vive le Quebec Libre !!! :clown:

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Thanks for the tip Zimmy. I didn't know Flaxywas French. Good to know.

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I think he's Quebecois.

Oh god.

A Quebecois, he seems so relaxed and likeable chap...totally not what I remember from Montreal. :balloon2:

I'm just stirring.

No everyone from Montreal is crazy AG. :clown:

Since I'm not a separatist, I refer to myself as a Canadian usually. (Although I don't mind being referred to as a Quebecois)

Enough digressing.

I take we are pretty much settled on the four house names?

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Originally Posted by TheFlax

No everyone from Montreal is crazy AG. :clown:

Since I'm not a separatist, I refer to myself as a Canadian usually. (Although I don't mind being referred to as a Quebecois)

Enough digressing.

I take we are pretty much settled on the four house names?

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Them's some comforting words Flaxinator. Nothing like a good separatist burnin' on the morning air to get the day started. :beam:

Happy Canada Day for the 1st!!

I can read French, and write it a little (badly), so I'm quite looking forward to our touches of color in this round. :yes:

:egypt:

What are some good (but Forum safe) oaths or swears in French? I want something to draw on when things get heated in battle or the Council.

From reading some Harry Turtledove books about an alternate World War I I'm under the impression that Quebecois may swear by naming parts of a Church, ie "Tabernac!" Would this be applicable to medieval French (similar to the English "God's wounds") or am I off base?

Of course weren't there two main dialects of French in this time period?

I'll let Tristan answer this, but if Quebecois curse words are needed, I can easily make a list. :yes:

All I know is that there will be a lot of "merde" everywhere.

Plus a few "Mon dieu's" for good measure. :balloon2:

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Originally Posted by OverKnight

Of course weren't there two main dialects of French in this time period?

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Yes, there were langue d'oil, spoken in the north of France and langue d'oc, spoken in the south.

As to swearing, I'll try and compile a list.

One of the most useful one in the starting years might be Bougre d'anglais !! (which could translate as English MF):sweatdrop:

Was langue d'oc the same as Provencal? I recall reading it was a bit of a lingua franca for part of the Middle Ages...

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Yes, there were langue d'oil, spoken in the north of France and langue d'oc, spoken in the south.

As to swearing, I'll try and compile a list.

One of the most useful one in the starting years might be Bougre d'anglais !! (which could translate as English MF):sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Zim

Was langue d'oc the same as Provencal? I recall reading it was a bit of a lingua franca for part of the Middle Ages...

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Yes and no... They share the same basis but langue d'oc was the "official" language while provençal was rather a dialect derived from the former.

But a speaker of one would have understood the speaker of the other.

Which wouldn't have been true of langue d'oc/langue d'oil speaker (think wallon/flemish in Belgium)

Speaking of flavor, there was a book I discovered a while back called 'A Knight's Own Book of Chivalry'. It's a translated treatise by a French knight from the Hundred Years' War named Geoffroi de Charny, who died in the Battle of Poitiers where he had the honor of carrying the Oriflamme. It's a very good resource, as it was commissioned by the King of France to serve as a manual for a new order of French knights that the King had hoped to create.

As far as I know, it's the only book of chivalry written by an actual medieval knight. I highly recommend it.

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Originally Posted by mini

As I'm from belgium, I speak dutch/french and english

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Same here.

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Originally Posted by Cecil XIX

Speaking of flavor, there was a book I discovered a while back called 'A Knight's Own Book of Chivalry'. It's a translated treatise by a French knight from the Hundred Years' War named Geoffroi de Charny, who died in the Battle of Poitiers where he had the honor of carrying the Oriflamme. It's a very good resource, as it was commissioned by the King of France to serve as a manual for a new order of French knights that the King had hoped to create.

As far as I know, it's the only book of chivalry written by an actual medieval knight. I highly recommend it.

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Very interesting. One comment I would make though is that for those seeking to be historically accurate, the starting date of our game (1080) is still in the early period of chivalry. It certainly existed at that point, but I don't think it was quite as popular or with as much of a formalized code as it achieved by the 13th and 14th centuries. I feel like in France in 1080, chivalry as we know it now was still in its infancy. That should make for some interesting story lines for anyone who wants to pursue it; determine what a proper code of chivalry IS and how exactly a chivalric knight behaves. Does it apply only to other knights? How about to heathens? How closely is it connected to the Church, and how closely to politics?

Food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Andres

Same here.

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Good god Andres, your Belgique?? :clown:

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Good god Andres, your Belgique?? :clown:

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Don't hold it against him, he really is a decent fellow. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Don't hold it against him, he really is a decent fellow. :laugh4:

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Non, Non, it is too late, we'll be drowning in bureaucracy and excellent beer before we know it!! :egypt:

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Good god Andres, your Belgique?? :clown:

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I plead guilty :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Non, Non, it is too late, we'll be drowning in bureaucracy and excellent beer before we know it!!

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You're forgetting the fries. And the chocolate. And the mussels. I'm hungry.

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Originally Posted by Andres

I plead guilty :sweatdrop:



You're forgetting the fries. And the chocolate. And the mussels. I'm hungry.

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oohhh yeah, Leffe Blonde and mussels in white wine sauce...ooohhhh.

Apropos nothing, I was thinking that the appropriate medieval term for a M2TW unit would be a "company". So you would have a company of archers, of knights, of spearmen etc. I think in KotR I may have used "regiment", but I think company fits better with our French feudal set-up.

So I would recommend we talk in character of (campaigning) "seasons" not turns and "companies" rather than "units". People are free to use whatever terminology they like, but I find having to use units and turns when drafting IC laws and orders etc rather immersion breaking. Sorry for being anal. :embarassed:

I very much like "companies" and "seasons." They sound better than anything we have previously used.

Ah, a little correction here because I've seen it a few times

Francia/Frankia is not France. It refers more or less to the territory of the Franks in the fading days of the Western Roman Empire as well as under Charlemagne and the Carolingians. The latin name used under the Capetians (minus probably the very, very first, Hugh Capet) would be Regnum Francorum. The term Francia would be more in use in the Holy Roman Empire and in the Eastern Roman Empire than in France itself. The terms France and French themselves appear only towards 1200 under Phillippe August II of France. In "our" times, it is known as the Kingdom of the Franks and the French are called mainly Franks.

Anyways, the expressions Kingdom of the Franks and Franks might be a tad extreme to include in the RP all the time, but Francia does sound way out.

Maybe for easier use, someone looking to refer to the Kingdom in latin could call it simply the Regnum.

My 10 cents :clown:

Something that's been bugging me: If a person from France is a Frenchman, what would you call someone from Lorraine, or the other Duchies? Lorraineman seems wrong.

Edit: I live in the state of Massachusetts, but I don't think I've ever been referred to as a Massachusettian or anything. According to the internet a state law passed in 1990 says I'm a Bay Stater. Learn something new every day.

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Originally Posted by OverKnight

Something that's been bugging me: If a person from France is a Frenchman, what would you call someone from Lorraine, or the other Duchies? Lorraineman seems wrong.

Edit: I live in the state of Massachusetts, but I don't think I've ever been referred to as a Massachusettian or anything. According to the internet a state law passed in 1990 says I'm a Bay Stater. Learn something new every day.

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- A Lorrainese? I know someone from Aragon would have been an Aragonese so perhaps it works like that for Duchies? A Frank was a Franconian I believe.

"Bay" stater? Are you sure it doesn't have something to do with gay marriage?

In French, someone hailing from Lorraine would be a Lorrain (maybe Lorrainian... in English)

Thanks Tristan. :2thumbsup: