controlling Phalanx

i think phalanxes are one thing the AI might do a better job of controlling than me

i find whenever i tell a phalanx to attack they often

a) break their phalanx formation
b) face the wrong way, completely exposing their flank

in the case of a) i tend to tell them to cancel when they're at least facing their opponent which causes them to reform the phalanx however while this works to a degree they're not really pushing into the enemy. in the case of b) i have to tell them to break their phalanx and reform

there must be a better way, please enlighten me people

That pisses me off alot. The only way to proplerly keep the formation is to right click and hold, but that leaves the phalangites vulnerble for a few seconds. That's why I now try to avoid them unless sieges or where i'm facing any hellen.

The phalanx was very unweldy, even in ancient times.

Why would you want them to be pushing into the enemy? The purpose of a phalanx (talking about the pikemen here, not hoplitai) is not to kill and it's not to ram into enemy ranks. It is simply to pin them; to keep them engaged frontally so that you can flank them with your mobile infantry and smash your cavalry to their back.

Just keep all your phalangites as a solid line in the center/front of your army and set them on defensive mode. Then use your missile units to provoke the enemy infantry into attacking. Your phalangites shouldn't need to be given any orders, they should be able to stand their ground on their own. So long as you can overcome your enemy on the flanks with your other units, you should have enough time to set up a double envelopement or hammer & anvil.

Here's a quick ASCII diagram showing a basic formation for a well balanced combined arms army:

Code:

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P = phalangites
I = infantry
M = missile
S = skirmishers
C = cavalry

        (enemy)

    S      S      S
I I P P P P P P P P I I
C  M      M      M  C

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Originally Posted by Conqueror

Why would you want them to be pushing into the enemy? The purpose of a phalanx (talking about the pikemen here, not hoplitai) is not to kill and it's not to ram into enemy ranks. It is simply to pin them; to keep them engaged frontally so that you can flank them with your mobile infantry and smash your cavalry to their back.

Just keep all your phalangites as a solid line in the center/front of your army and set them on defensive mode. Then use your missile units to provoke the enemy infantry into attacking. Your phalangites shouldn't need to be given any orders, they should be able to stand their ground on their own. So long as you can overcome your enemy on the flanks with your other units, you should have enough time to set up a double envelopement or hammer & anvil.

Here's a quick ASCII diagram showing a basic formation for a well balanced combined arms army:

Code:

---

P = phalangites
I = infantry
M = missile
S = skirmishers
C = cavalry

        (enemy)

    S      S      S
I I P P P P P P P P I I
C  M      M      M  C

---

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yes i get that idea, all very well when the enemy engages you head on but if you're engaged at an angle and only part of your wall is doing a job, it's hardly unresonable to try to them for the envelopement (given how few infantry you have in your setup, you'd have to move over phalangites for part of an envelopement.

i can't be the only to have noticed the AI often uses it's phalangites to push your troops, very effective too when it traps more of your infantry into it's killing zone and buckling your lines

also in cities/town when you want to push the enemy into the streets , so there's no opportunity for them flank you.

I've also encountered the AI using its phalangites as rams. It's a really pain when they break apart a section of my phalanx. I usually get heavy cavalry to smash into the back of these ramming phalanxes.

As for reforming the 'rammed' phalanxes I do the same as Alsatia does, but I haven't tried but I think I heard that instead of holding and moving the cursor you'd be able to hold the shift key. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/image...c/ht_shrug.gif

the trick is not to make your phalanx attack but to order them to move behind the enemy. the phalanx will automatically stop and attack the enemy when they encounter them. be careful when using this technique because the rest of the line will keep moving forward, you have to stop them manually. this technique is very useful because you can just order your line to move forward while you manouevre your cavalry and hypapistai/hoplitai.

Seconded, the best way how to attack with a phalanx is not to attack. Just order them to move. Also when two phalanx lines collide in wrong angle, you can move your phalanxes to create a V in which you trap enemy, the flank phalanxes which will face yours from side will die fast, if you charge the entry to the V with cavalry or assault infantry you will wipe out all of them.

That is the same tactic I use with say roman or "barbarian" factions. For instance, there really is no way to "attack" phalangites without a similar unit, so instead I just order my legionaries to move into the phalanx, once the legionaries are literally inside the phalanx I then order attack, and that is usually quite effective. Note: this is a really bad idea on very hard, as generally anything will get scewerd by doing that move.

You can attack phalangites with other phalangites. Its usually fine if phalanxes don't start stacking ontop of each other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

You can attack phalangites with other phalangites. Its usually fine if phalanxes don't start stacking ontop of each other.

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That last thing always happens if at least one side is off guard mode. It begins as a pike-poking match and results in a chaotic push.

Maion

I usualyl do off guard mode in phalanx vs phalanx. I just tell them to attack and don't mess with them. You really have to reduce the angle offset so you odn't end up with all your phalanxes 45 degrees. But then again I attack with boxes instead of rectangles so... yeah.

Hold alt when you move a group of Phalanx... that way you made an effective walking spearwall... BTW, for an aggresive attack, phalanx are best ordered one by one to specific enemy...

Hold alt only when moving or also when attacking?

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Originally Posted by vartan

Hold alt only when moving or also when attacking?

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the alt attack seem to work - the phalanx will point towards the enemy and to an extent push against them

I've never done tha Alt-thing myself to be honest. Or probably haven't done it conciously, so I may try it as well.

Maion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios

I've never done tha Alt-thing myself to be honest. Or probably haven't done it conciously, so I may try it as well.

Maion

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Whattt?!? ALT-moving was basic Hellenic army subjects since the Vanilla..... maybe you are too often use it and you forgot why did u use that? :thumbsdown:

I have never felt the need to do this, really. I do what I do best, and that is simply pinning and hammering. I focus way more on my flanks and cavalry arms, leaving the phalanx pin and occasionally slowly grid down the enemy.

Maion

The phalanxes still stop when they touch if htey are in defense or they bunch up on the pikes and die. For maximum effectiveness in phalanx vs phalanx, you really need to micromanage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Hold alt when you move a group of Phalanx... that way you made an effective walking spearwall... BTW, for an aggresive attack, phalanx are best ordered one by one to specific enemy...

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But, when doing that, (or at least, when I do it) you leave your phalanx exposed on all sides depending on how they move. Perfect from an infantry or better yet, cavalry charge to the front or rear.....

EDIT: Don't try cav charge from front or rear... (except hammer and anvil)

something else about phalanxes: do they get any boni or mali while fighting up- or downhill? I wondered really in my ptolemaioi campaign this night, when my experienced pezhtairoih (written correctly?) where slaughtered by some AS pantopadoi phalangitai and even started too flee after being decimated to around 20 man while only around 25 AS phalngitai where killed :dizzy2:

If you are fighting on H or VH battle difficulty, the AI will get bonuses for their units anyways.

All units gain some sort of bonus when fighting with the high ground.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

something else about phalanxes: do they get any boni or mali while fighting up- or downhill? I wondered really in my ptolemaioi campaign this night, when my experienced pezhtairoih (written correctly?) where slaughtered by some AS pantopadoi phalangitai and even started too flee after being decimated to around 20 man while only around 25 AS phalngitai where killed :dizzy2:

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Sometimes the pikes point up or down sometimes straight foward on an incline, that screws up their attacks.

Don't move uphill wiht pikes. They can't hit the enemy and get poked in the face(there's some sort of bonus for face shots).

Well, it's not really the face shots. I hardly doubt if the engine can distinguish the various parts of the body in such detail. But it is true they get bonuses when fighting uphill. Phalanxes fighting uphill get ripped apart in no time.

Maion

It does with arrows as well.

whenever i used phalanxes i never, ever attacked. i always stood right next to the enemy army so they would attack. the reason is the huge pain it is to move the phalanxes. IMO, phalanxes are defensive units, use them as the battle line, but keep lots of mobile troops to crush the enemy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by godsakes

i think phalanxes are one thing the AI might do a better job of controlling than me

i find whenever i tell a phalanx to attack they often

a) break their phalanx formation
b) face the wrong way, completely exposing their flank

in the case of a) i tend to tell them to cancel when they're at least facing their opponent which causes them to reform the phalanx however while this works to a degree they're not really pushing into the enemy. in the case of b) i have to tell them to break their phalanx and reform

there must be a better way, please enlighten me people

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firstly don't tell a phalanx to attack-tell an entire line to advance forward*. and so that they attack whoever is in the way, take guard mode off, and if the opposition is a phalanx, hit it, then switch guard mode on. and don;t use phalanxes in broken terrain-and if there is, avoid it like the plague. and each regimetn ought to be deployed in deep ranks, for punch.

*to get them to keep formation, group the phalanxes into a line, ungroup, then regroup.

I think using phalanx is alot of micromanage to put them into right positions and not moving them to much around when engaging the enemy army. This makes them as i feel vunerable and it feels like an out of date fighting style. Its very easy to defeat hellenic armies with phalanxes with versatile units like light cavalry and missle/skirmisher units.

I think for using a army with phalanxes successful it all depends how you use you rear units to force the enemy into the center getting smashed by the long phalanx pikes.

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Originally Posted by dake

I think using phalanx is alot of micromanage to put them into right positions and not moving them to much around when engaging the enemy army. This makes them as i feel vunerable and it feels like an out of date fighting style. Its very easy to defeat hellenic armies with phalanxes with versatile units like light cavalry and missle/skirmisher units.

I think for using a army with phalanxes successful it all depends how you use you rear units to force the enemy into the center getting smashed by the long phalanx pikes.

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Just stand still and wait for them to come to you

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

Just stand still and wait for them to come to you

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True but that is no fun at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dake

True but that is no fun at all.

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The funny thing is how to bait them to slam themself on your spearwall... :laugh4: