Destroyed Partho-Sassanid Archaeological Site Believed to be Lost City...

...Of Azem.

http://www.cais-soas.com/news/index....troyed&catid=1

Quote:

---

LONDON, (CAIS) -- During the widening of a road by the Islamic Republic’s controlled Iran’s National Oil Company near the city of Ahwaz, a large historical site dating back to the Parthian dynasty (248 BCE - 224 CE) was seriously damaged and some sections were completely destroyed, as reported by the Persian service of the Friends of Khuzestan’s Friends of Cultural Heritage Society (TARIANA).

Apparently the destruction of the site began over a decade ago by the Islamic Republic’s Construction Jihad Foundation. The name and the exact location of the site have been kept secret for security reasons.

“Destruction of this important site which its’ name cannot be disclosed for security reasons, began in 1990s by the Jihad Foundation,” said Mojtaba Gahestuni, the director of Tariana.

“The ancient site is over 150 hectares and there is evidence of mudbrick walls, large cut stones, stone-constructions, a fire-alter as well as decorated potsherds scattered over the site,” said Gahestuni.

He continued “in this site there is a large cemetery which is covered with broken pieces of large red coloured-torpedo shaped earthenware urns, typical of Parthian dynastic art and black-wares dating back to the 1st millennium BCE.”

Currently the ancient Iranian site is left unprotected at the mercy of the Oil Company’s bulldozers and smugglers alike. The responsibility of the security of the site lies with the provincial Cultural Heritage, Handicraft and Tourism Organisation (KCHHTO) but no action has been taken yet to protect it.

Not so surprisingly, but ironically KCHHTO has been responsible for the destruction of many pre-Islamic Iranian sites in the Khuzestan Province.

“KCHHTO is fully aware of the site’s cultural and historical importance, not only have no measures been taken to secure the site, but also no steps were made to register the site on the national heritage list or commission a preliminary archaeological survey to demarcate the boundaries of the site,” said Gahestuni.

Registering a site in today’s Iran does not mean anything as many archaeological and historical sites which were registered on the list some since 1930s have been damaged and even totally obliterated and nothing was done to protect them, such as last years destruction of a Partho-Sasanian site in Susa.

The Parthian site contains a free-standing stone structure which is believed to be a Parthian Mausoleum.

“In the site there is a large cubic-structure made of stone and saruj mortar, which is 2 meters in height, 6 meters wide and has a 2 meter foundation. Primarily we thought the structure was an ābanbār (water storage), but it is more likely to be a mausoleum.”

He concluded “if any archaeological researches are to be conducted on the site we will surly find the coinage and written-evidence to obtain more information about the ancient site.”

---

Got it from TWC - Discuss as a side effect of EB, but feel free to move it to the Backroom if anything.

Centurio Nixalsverdrus you must be an American and the Romans fan for sure...

corporations only concern is with profit margin.

Not if a strong govenment which realises that ONLY when preserving the Past can your people be PROUD for it and HOPEFUL for the future.

Not much of hope in present day Iran, there just isn't.

This reminds me Taliban in Afganistan. Especially this one time when they destroyed those two Buddha statutes(Can't remember how they were called) while cameras were recording everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

This reminds me Taliban in Afganistan. Especially this one time when they destroyed those two Buddha statutes(Can't remember how they were called) while cameras were recording everything.

---

That was criminal imo... but for a completely different reason, namely a religious one (a demented twisted religious one though).... From what I can gather from the article the destruction of the sites hsa not so much to do with the fundamentalist nature of the government, but because of widespread corruption. From what I know from Iran Iranians are rather proud of their heritage in general.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

This reminds me Taliban in Afganistan. Especially this one time when they destroyed those two Buddha statutes(Can't remember how they were called) while cameras were recording everything.

---

It made me think about the musea of Kabul and Bagdad...

Artifacts from National Museum from Kabul actually were never destroyed. They were kept hidden about 20 years. Bagdad however is another story. Locals looted that museum and took away everything that was valuable - that means everything in that museum. :thumbsdown:

They got much of it back and it wasn't nearly that bad. The main losses were from the looting of the archeological sites across Iraq at the beginning of the ground invasion.

Only 7%-10% of the artifacts were looted from the museum and around 40% were recovered since then.

yeah that was pretty terrible too....


I think we would be wise not to implicate religion as a cause for this though...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reality=Chaos

yeah that was pretty terrible too....


I think we would be wise not to implicate religion as a cause for this though...

---

but it IS the reason!
Why else where those statues destroyed, for the lolz?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

Artifacts from National Museum from Kabul actually were never destroyed. They were kept hidden about 20 years. Bagdad however is another story. Locals looted that museum and took away everything that was valuable - that means everything in that museum. :thumbsdown:

---

Heh, nothing unusual or especially heinous about that. I would have looted it too, if I lived there during that time. The heck I would. Without a slightest problem with my conscience. Carpe diem. One single artefact can make a person wealthy for a lifetime by their standards. So why not?

Non-religious reasons must be considered. When I hear of these sort of stories, I don't rush to pull out the religious card because I've learned in time that all things known (and unknown) considered, there usually are subtle and underlying reasons (other than the fanatical) for the destruction of such histories. In my nation, reasons would tend toward the political. If in Iran it tends toward the religious (no surprise if one has lived there and knows of life in Iran), then it is so. Unfortunately, at the end of the day, destruction of history is plain wrong. But, if one is corrupt, I think these values are the last thing in his/her mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reality=Chaos

From what I know from Iran Iranians are rather proud of their heritage in general.

---

So we've heard. But there is that whole Islam thing..

and the Iranians we hear from are probably Westernized and out of the ordinary, different from the run of the mill guys who elected the Ahmad

There is a non-religious reason as well as a religious one. The Islamic power players fear that the association of Iran with a pre-Islamic ideal will generate contempt for their fundamentalist government as much as they despise the fact that "previously" people lived and prospered in a non-Islamic way.

The non-religious reason is the fact that were it not for King Oil Iran would be a fifth rate power instead of a fourth rate one. Someone has to feed the mouths of the proud Iranian peasants and Ahmadinejad voters so they keep backing the regime.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Terribly Harmful Name

The non-religious reason is the fact that were it not for King Oil Iran would be a fifth rate power instead of a fourth rate one. Someone has to feed the mouths of the proud Iranian peasants and Ahmadinejad voters so they keep backing the regime.

---

people are actually supporting the SOB? I was under the impression that there was much voter fraud involved in this election, hence the recent riots.

honestly, I think Iran needs to get another revolution going: they already kicked far worse people out of power before, and made a few others age faster, why not kick this dunce from power again? mind you in both cases Iran was governed by either foreign invaders or police states from within...

*apparently the only exception was hajjaj ibn yusif, but let's face it, even arabs hate the guy.

look, if you want to know why the government doesn't give a crap, its not really down to religion, as much as it is down to power: twatdinejad and his supporters want a power base with which to exercise authority*, so they will pull the religion card, by saying that destroying things is good for the lord. why destroy ancient iranian stuff? because, being preislamic, and a source of pride, it will allow the iranis to have pride in something other than shiism, thus undermining the theocratic authority of the government. in other words, the government sees it as a threat.

taaliban did it for essentially the same reason: they don't want anyone having pride in Afghanistan's preislamic past, undermining their myopic bastardized version of the faith (and power), so they tore the bhudda's down.

*y'know, if they really are faithful, why lie or fudge the votes? a muslim can't be a liar.:no:

When did this turn into a religious/politic thread? In b4 the lock.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ibrahim

look, if you want to know why the government doesn't give a crap, its not really down to religion, as much as it is down to power: twatdinejad and his supporters want a power base with which to exercise authority*, so they will pull the religion card, by saying that destroying things is good for the lord. why destroy ancient iranian stuff? because, being preislamic, and a source of pride, it will allow the iranis to have pride in something other than shiism, thus undermining the theocratic authority of the government. in other words, the government sees it as a threat.

---

Absolutley correct there my friend, you should also read up on how the revolutionary guards are investing large sums of my in buying up the various businnesses in Iran, there trying to root themselves so firmly into Iranian life and the economy that to remove them would be catasrophic.

I remember reading something about the ISI in pakistan doing the same but i'm not too sure about that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

but it IS the reason!
Why else where those statues destroyed, for the lolz?

---

In case of the budha's yes it is religion, and I have said that before... However I doubt that the raiding in Baghdad or the detruction in Iran had very much to do with religion... in Baghdad it was plundering for obvious monetary reasons. In Iran there might be a religious undercurrent of not wanting pre-islamic stuff, but really monetary reasons seem to be the main driving force there. It's the national oil company that does these things, and they are very much not a religious organization. Big bucks would be a more understandable (well not to me but in general) reason for destroying your own heritage, especially when it's an oil company doing it.

It's easy to blame everything that seems wrong in the middle east on religion... and it's also very wrong imo. Yes religion is important in the region, but countries like Syria and egypt do keep good care of their historical treasures, which especially in the case of egypt are very much pre islamic. the point here is that bad habits are in humans around the world.

Well, It seems that some men didn't learn a simple things such as honouring their ancestor's archievement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Well, It seems that some men didn't learn a simple things such as honouring their ancestor's archievement.

---

SOME men yeah.... But I can distinctly remember rumsfeld saying something along the lines of those archeolgical sites are just wortless piles of rock...

And don't be confusing Islam (religion) with culture... Islam has influenced those cultures for sure, but many customs that we attribute to islam are not in fact islamic. Prime example being women's circumcision which is always brought up as being islamic in nature. It's not, it's a cultural (a sick one imo) tradition in east africa and certain parts of west africa.

Islam and culture in islamic countries have very much in common but they ARE different

Everyone who thinks it's OK to destroy archeological sites, be it the gay Iranian dude or Rumsfeld, deserves to be destroyed in the same way, ride a bulldozer over them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

Everyone who thinks it's OK to destroy archeological sites, be it the gay Iranian dude or Rumsfeld, deserves to be destroyed in the same way, ride a bulldozer over them.

---

agreed:2thumbsup:

so when it was the british from the anglo iranian oil company it was ok (remembering they took 97% of the iranian oil and only left 7%) ?

there are several people inside the iranian regime who (taking it from egypts example perhaps) do defend that the greatness of the past wich was made by such great man was what allowed islam to expand so fast in there cause it takes a great people to understand how much better islam was then the ancient religions (maybe it´s rethoric but it sure helps to preservate the monuments)

thus preserving pre-islamic archeological sites are a way to make the people (and their current religion) greater.

there are many great iranian leaders but the majority of the people are poor and rural people thus controlled by the church(religion) and we must remember that this "riots" are being made the city people so i trully doubt it was an election fraud. the truth is probably that the illeterate controled by the clergy outnumber the city population.

what most people fail to realise is that iran is currently undergoing a massive economical crisis, it´s the worlds biggest country in terms of drug problems (created by the talibans trying to "poison" the west with heroin ) and altough one of the worlds biggest oil producers they must import their gasoline cause their refineries can´t handle the job.

probably the news is true but one must take into consideration the current social situation of the country to understand why certain things happen instead of just blaiming it on religion .:egypt:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

When did this turn into a religious/politic thread? In b4 the lock.

---

What the heck is wrong with these people? I mean, ACIN, don't they have the decency to stay on topic?

In b4 teh lok. :dancinglock:

Quote:

---

Heh, nothing unusual or especially heinous about that. I would have looted it too, if I lived there during that time. The heck I would. Without a slightest problem with my conscience. Carpe diem. One single artefact can make a person wealthy for a lifetime by their standards. So why not?

---

lol wut

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

Everyone who thinks it's OK to destroy archeological sites, be it the gay Iranian dude or Rumsfeld, deserves to be destroyed in the same way, ride a bulldozer over them.

---

*MITTENS*

Oh btw, I feel that it is still on topic, if it's drifted a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

Everyone who thinks it's OK to destroy archeological sites, be it the gay Iranian dude or Rumsfeld, deserves to be destroyed in the same way, ride a bulldozer over them.

---

While I as an historian definitly disapprove of the destruction of these sites (or allowing them to be destroyed for that matter), I also want to point that conserving historical and archeological evidence is not something each society does or - for that matter - should do. Some extreme modernist societies (revolutionary France, Germany on the eve of WWI,...) simply focus on something else besides their own history. In most European countries, we try to identify ourselves by a combination of nationalism and history (the latter is most often little more than a nationalist interpretation of history btw). People or countries however can also identify themselves by more abstract concepts that need little to no historical references (the concept of a revolution, of a nation as a state without history, of an ongoing movement where the way of live is more important than the actual outcome, ...). Focusing on archeological sites or historical events as the only way to judge one's self-respect (as a people or as a nation), therefore falls short of practices and mentalities that don't rely on historical events or historical constructions for identification purposes.

One can view the destruction of possible other (historical) sources for identification as a way to conserve one's power and political positions. However: in revolutionary France (and to a lesser extent in WWI-Germany), the non-historical identification was often so deeply internalized to make people who didn't held any significant amount of power destroy historical sites and monuments. The distinction between an internalized vision of non-historical identification and pure indoctrination is of course small. But given the fact one can't really call one interpretation some kind of indoctrination (or foolishness), without proclaiming the other (our own) identification the norm, I prefer to consider the possibility that archeological sites may be less important to the identity of some groups in modern Iran, without blaiming them for their apparent lack of self-respect. I have however little prove to support this view, besides the mere possibility of it.

My apologies for my broken English,

Andy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reality=Chaos

SOME men yeah.... But I can distinctly remember rumsfeld saying something along the lines of those archeolgical sites are just wortless piles of rock...

And don't be confusing Islam (religion) with culture... Islam has influenced those cultures for sure, but many customs that we attribute to islam are not in fact islamic. Prime example being women's circumcision which is always brought up as being islamic in nature. It's not, it's a cultural (a sick one imo) tradition in east africa and certain parts of west africa.

Islam and culture in islamic countries have very much in common but they ARE different

---

However, destroying that of the preIslamic past and treating everything non Islamic as worthless is very much a part of Islam. Islam makes its own rep. Whatever the reasons may be in Iran, this is there there in Islam. (So called Muslim "scientists" of the past were mainly remnant non Muslims who had been conquered.)

Muslims are allowed to lie to infidels btw, if they feel themselves surrounded and outnumbered. Called taqiyya

Syria is ruled by a heretical sect. Egypt was originally a proponent of a sort of modernism in the 20th century (may change with a triumphant Islam in the 21st), is a tourist country and the pyramids are a bit hard to destroy. Look at why the stuff wasn't destroyed cause it sure wasn't for Islam's restraining hand

Eh, is TPC on vacation? He usually graces these sorts of threads with his presence. Maybe he's just lurking. :-\

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Eh, is TPC on vacation? He usually graces these sorts of threads with his presence. Maybe he's just lurking. :-\

---

Maybe the VEVAK paid him a visit :-(
Or President Ahmadifesad himself. Which is the same, really...

I don't care whether they destroyed the site for religious reasons or for profit - people who do such things are scum anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by king of thracia

However, destroying that of the preIslamic past and treating everything non Islamic as worthless is very much a part of Islam. Islam makes its own rep. Whatever the reasons may be in Iran, this is there there in Islam. (So called Muslim "scientists" of the past were mainly remnant non Muslims who had been conquered.)

Muslims are allowed to lie to infidels btw, if they feel themselves surrounded and outnumbered. Called taqiyya

Syria is ruled by a heretical sect. Egypt was originally a proponent of a sort of modernism in the 20th century (may change with a triumphant Islam in the 21st), is a tourist country and the pyramids are a bit hard to destroy. Look at why the stuff wasn't destroyed cause it sure wasn't for Islam's restraining hand

---

I'm sorry but that is an ignorant bunch of bull, sure muslims have destroyed relics and ancient sites in the past but so have christians, hindu's and every other religion on the planet, that behavoir is indicitive of religious fanaticism in general and has nothing to do with the religion itself.

There are loads of pre islamic sites throught the islamic world that are completely unharmed, I don't see the ruins of babylon being smashed up in the name of islam? or persepolis, leptis magna, palmyra or innumerable others for that matter.

As for muslim scientists being non-muslim remnants I should point you in the direction of Ibn Khaldun, Geber and Avicenna who are counted among the most important scientists in history and who were very definatley muslim.

No, he's partly right. Not wholly, but partly still. However, there is no point in discussing any friggin' religion on these fora.


Also, bobbin, since you are an educated fellow: please say "definitely", not "definately". I hate it how everybody on the internet seems to make the same spelling mistakes. It hurts our eyes, yes it does. [/nitpick mode]

I've posted a message to his profile dealing with this. you can take a look at it.

now, let's let off the contraversial topic of religion, and move on to something known as the subject of the thread: how to best discuss, solve, and combat Iran's antiquity blues, without making idiots of ourselves. we best discuss what needs to be done about the ruins, and what can be done right now, not moan about the cause. resorting to character or religious assassination is not the solution.

I'll take the initiative: Is there some agency, bureau, or other means of contact we can use to deal with this?:book:

TPC hasn't been around lately, so don't expect a response from him.

This thread is off topic from EB, and since it has been an argument about religion I'm going to just close it to be safe.