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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8197917.stm
Something deep inside when Western Chivalric-influenced psyche is offended by the Burkka. A woman does not need to hide her shape and face to be safe from me, or another man when I am around.
I fully support this French policy in general, the only thing I don't like is that we didn't come up with it first.
ignore
Burkhas and hijabs worn in the West aren't about modesty, they're a statement.
According to the women that wear them, they're making a statement on the superiority of the Islamic culture, and hoping to promote a migration towards it in their new Western home
[citation needed]Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
https://i642.photobucket.com/albums/...-819731_50.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Should have used this image. Now that you're with the big boys, you need to learn the proper ways to influence people into your side, whatever that may be. Funny images are a way to do that. : D
On-topic, indeed I also believe the Western Chivalry might have influenced us, along with the dose of colonialism and Imperial European superiority which showed that our culture is superior and anything that conflicts with it is by default, bad/wrong.
As a yankee i must continue our historical tradition of siding with the french on this one...
There is no need to ban the burka, you have to be recognisable on the street, current laws are fine
finger -> face MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA shambling sleepingbag
disrespect is key.
Burkinis are pretty silly (well, they're a clever adaptation for those feeling obliged to follow a pretty silly rule anyway) but it seems odd to have a pool ban a type of clothing designed for swimming in. I suppose if they thought they'd lose a lot of business they wouldn't do it. Still odd.
It is kind of funny to see a French pool keeping people out for wearing too much, here it'd likely be for wearing too little (possibly with the same argument of the clothing, or lack thereof, being degrading to women). :clown:
As far as the government appointing 32 legislators to spend six months trying to find ways to limit the use of the Burkha....that's interesting. I guess it keeps them from causing the kind of trouble they might in their normal duties, although I'm sure they'll find a way to cause trouble with their current assignment. :smash:
I despise islamic dress code, but part of me is uncomfortable with banning them. Strictly speaking they don't harm anyone.
I always think it's odd when people do this. You never hear of protestants lecturing catholics on how to venerate saints, or McDonalds refusing to allow jews inside because they're not allowed to eat there according to their religion...Quote:
Emerainville Mayor Alain Kelyor said "all this has nothing to do with Islam", adding that the swimsuit was "not an Islamic swimsuit" and that "that type of suit does not exist in the Koran".
Somebody should try entering a French pool in a diving suit to see if anyone makes a complaint about it.
Is Burka short for Berkshire Hunt? :inquisitive:
Surely by telling her what to wear you are patronising her, how does that fit into chivalric thinking? Let them where what they want, why does anyone care what they wear? Or are we still in the childish "all towel heads are terrorists" stage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Foreign people look and act different and native people don't like it.
A real scoop this one :rolleyes:
Sure enough but the burkha should be banned, I don't care for the justification their petty beliefs don't offend me, but the burkha is a security-risk pure and simple, you can't see who is under it. As for the rest, couldn't care less.
I can't see the face of people walking in front of me. Is that a security risk?
Should wearing a mask be illegal too?
Howabout false mostaches?
Just think of it as fashion.
I see nothing wrong if they want to wear them.
Last time I read the Koran it stated women need to cover their breasts. I could not see the bit that said hair.
Assuming that men have no control over their urges, why is it that women suffer in requiring a constant bodyguard and wearing such horrible clothes? Shouldn't men be forced to wear chastity belts and anything else that causes them to all be such cause of concern? :inquisitive:
Just like wearing a bikini isn't culturally acceptable on the beaches of Saudi Arabia, these things shouldn't be acceptable over here. Of course, we're not as barbaric to flog the offenders.
~:smoking:
How about this,Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...je_196374h.jpg
Burkha for men :balloon2:
I can't see the face of people walking in front of me. Is that a security risk?
Should wearing a mask be illegal too?
Howabout false mostaches?
Is there a place where a lot of people wear masks, allowing just about any trafficking? A criminal or terrorist can be completely invisible.
__________________
OMG, Halloween will be next.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Nobody said that, that's just silly and avoiding the real issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Let's call a spade a spade. It's not about 'safety' or "hygiene'.
No, burka's should be disallowed because they are denigrating for the women wearing them. It's a clothing designed to make women unrecognisable objects and to mark them as inferior beings. Away with the burka, it's a disgrace.
Halloween is once a year. These burkhas all look the same and they are a common view(are they? have never seen one), I could organise the greatest heist in history right under your noses, or worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
What gives you the right to determine what a person can wear? We aren't dealing with 5 year olds here, these are grown women who should be able to decide what they want to wear. Treating them like little kids and telling them how to get dressed is denigrating.
It is alien to our society.
People should come to the country to meld with the society, not do what they or their ancestors did in their own.
If they don't like it - leave.
~:smoking:
I don't know what gives anyone a right to tell what a person can wear, but french laws surely can tell what a person cannot wear. Fine enough for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by miotas
Now, before you start using general principles and whatnots, a few informations:
- the french idea of laïcité (sometimes described abroad as a general anti-religious feeling) involves many thing, such as not wearing any religious symbols in a public area. Obviously, the whole thingy has been lately in conflict with veils, burkas, burkinis and other ridiculous islamofascist clothing fashions, but be assured that a catholic kid is in theory not allowed to wear a cross in school, just like a jewish one is not allowed to wear a kippa.
- swimming pools are public areas.
- burkinis are a religious symbol, which not only - as Don explained - tries to carry a message ('Islam is teh :daisy:') but also turns women into mere objects.
So yeah, good riddance. It's about freaking time, and I hope the law project that attempts to ban Burka, Niqab and other similar middle-age crap will pass soon. Not that there are many women wearing burka in France, but that way, they'll know that their distorded view of religion and identity is not welcome here.
Edit: Reading the article really makes it sound like France is on crusade against islam and what not. Obviously, most of the issues nowadays are caused by islam and muslims who can't graspe the principle of laicité, but this very idea of laicité was at first aimed at the catholic church. It also greatly favored the freedom of minor religious groups (jews, protestants, armenians) in France.
Lulz...Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Is that enshrined in the constitution? Perhaps it should be. We can get parliament to set out what cultural behaviour is acceptable, and anyone who doesn't comply should be deported. How about some good honest white english woman who decides to wear a burkha? Should she be imprisoned?
The Cultural Norms Act (2010)
Section A: Acceptable attire includes:
(i) Slacks and shirts for men
(ii) Skirts and dresses for the ladies
:laugh4: This board can be truely tragi-comic.
In theory or practise? I agree with Miotas, security is my only consideration for the burkha, but a niqaab or a veil is just fashion to me. The maroccan pirate-veil even looks kinda cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Interestingly if you look at 20-30 year old photos of crowds in Islamic countries - almost all women are not veiled.
The Koran suggests that men and women dress modestly and "cover all that isn't apparent". The current fashion for complete veiling is relatively recent. It is neither islamic in origin, nor is it that traditional. But hey - this is the org - we don't care about understanding things - we just want a place to knee-jerk.
Pictures of Nasser's funeral:
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1998/387/cu1.gif
Left, a Woman in Saudi Arab dress of Royal Family and
Right, a Woman in Palestine dress from Bethlehem:
http://www.arab2.com/arab-traditiona...-palestine.gif
Wouldn't that be illegal under the anti-discrimination laws that countries like Norway, Sweden and Germany have? :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Indeed it can. Of course, on matters you care about extreme measures are justified...Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
~:smoking:
What are you actually scared of Rory? You think that your girlfriend will be forced to wear a burkha?Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
It's an issue because people make it one. Any law would be utterly unworkable, illiberal and ultimately counterproductive.
As I have attempted to show, fashions change. 'Islamic' fashions change too. They will change again - especially if they are not made into issues central to identity.
So what, if they insist on asking more than we are prepared to give humiliate the crap out of them, mock them, redicule them, up to the point that they simply can't take it anymore, and after that laugh them in their face until they start enjoying it and laugh along. Presto.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Do you honestly think the burka is just some new fashion and nothing else?Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Care to explain the succes of this "new fashion" in Afghanistan?
What's the most important issues for female liberation?
Economic independence, economic independence and economic independence.
Anything else, like burkas or whatever, is secondary.
Well, I Must said that.....
I agree with those French, All covered, and loose fitting suits for women made them easier to hide the bomb in. But guys... talking about Islamic dresscode this late years, those fanatics seemed to had a tighter grips by now.... using peer pressures and school regulations even my girlfriend was "forced" to wear that in her highschool.
But seriously, AGAINST MOST THAT THEY BELIEVE, using all covered dress DOESN'T stop some filthy minded males to grab their breasts and caress their butts, SERIOUSLY!, here, in Indonesia.... MOST WOMEN THAT GOT RAPED WEARS HIJAB!!! (Citation: Kompas)
EDIT: but once you got yourself a girlfriend that wear "hijab". I bet they still prefer to open their dress when in your room. :embarassed:
Well in case of the burkini that's a bit hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Wolf
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ny/burkini.jpg
I think this is taking it a bit too far, should I have a problem with this.
edit: afterthought, I can't believe I am saying this. I don't think these shambling sleepingbags are the ones going to the pool. Wearing a burkha is closing yourself of to society, the burkini sounds more like a good compromise, being part of society without compromising theirselves. We happy they happy, but we aren't happy. Would we have all this fuzz if they picked a name for that thing that doesn't sound like Burkha?
to take this further, we expect to be able to 'read' someones face in order to judge their intentions and assess their trustworthiness, especially with those we don't know personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
that may not matter in societies where women are effectively chattel, why do you need to trust someone who has no power and influence to affect your life, but i kind of thought we'd got past that in the west.
i'm not sure i'd legislate against a form of clothing, but i'd be damn sure there was no legislation barring discrimination on the trust grounds.
Funny.
Another one from AFP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ipHzwXtl2sWJ0A
Ok, now I am just stunned. THAT is what they want to ban? Would you ban this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
https://i385.photobucket.com/albums/...cSwimsuit1.jpg
Yeah, if it's meant to make them unattractive I must say it fails completely...
Wearing burqas must be allowed. As much as they offend my sensibilities, wearing that sack is a personal business of the wearer. Of course, *driving* with that thing on should be strictly verbotten.
What has Afghanistan got to do with this? This is about european law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
So harrass and abuse people who do things differently to you Fragony. Nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
You're right. Allow everything that a culture somewhere finds OK. Knives under cots? Sure, why not. Dogmatic teaching from a young age? It works abroad, why not here? Never offend others sensibilities, so everyone must take shoes off before entering a house of Mosque. Mustn't let police work offend anyone. Polygamy? Well, rather legalise it than cause any offence. Cutting sheep's throats in the back garden? Well, if their grandfathers did it we can't change them can we? Church bells causing offence? Better stop them too whilst we're at it. The Queen is defender of the Faith. Clearly that's discrimination. Better scrap that too.
~:smoking:
Taliban and their anti-female laws.Quote:
What has Afghanistan got to do with this? This is about european law.
It is denigrating to women. I don't know if you can revoke the privilege unless you infringe on personal freedoms. The women don't complain because that is their culture but as soon as they gain some freedom from their male oppressors i am sure they won't want to wear the burkha. i mean it doesn't really look very convient, must really mess with your peripherals.
Gosh i felt like a feminist for a minute there.
I have no time for their imaginary friends, when you are tresspassing meet the dogs. The only way we can make this work is by being perfectly clear, this is us, you are welcome here but this is not your country it is ours and we do things our way. So if some beard demands 5 prayer breaks a day they won't make theirselves very popular. Ask it to me and I will give him a spot where there is absolute certainty that while he is praying to mecca everybody will be looking at his butt. If you can't take a healthy dose of rudeness you definately don't belong in the Netherlands, we don't like to be told what to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Hmm... no problem. Don't give muslims any breaks. Don't adjust anything to fit their needs. That's not a problem really, however, telling them what to wear imho goes too far. You don't need to (and quite frankly, shouldn't) change the existing rules to accomodate them, but let's face it, clothing as long as it meets the basic standards of public decency is a personal business of the wearer. Otherwise we're getting into the fashion police territory reserved for for Iranian Basij and the Taliban Ministry of the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice.
Me and my friends recently converted to animism. We went to the swimming pool dressed like this. We were banned. :furious3:
https://img30.imageshack.us/img30/35...eniskokers.jpg
Or, in other words, societies have basic dress codes of what is appropriate attire. We are all forced to abide by it. If not by law, then by social convention.
Societies also change. I can not wear Celtic clothing of 2500 years ago. One hundred years ago, a woman in pants would create outrage. Currently, the dress codes of new cultures are assimilating. Assimilation is always a two-way process, a new common dress code will be formed. This assimilation is not a peaceful process. Never has been. The right of men to have long hair in the sixties, of women to wear trousers in the early 20th century - all was done through struggle, bans, moral outrage.
Currently, new cultures are changing publicly accepted dress codes too. Alas, moving them in a reactionary direction. In Paris north or east, a women can not walk the streets in a skimpy summer dress anymore. It is just not worth it, not worth the hassle. The influence of new cultures has managed to destroy a cherished French tradition too: women no longer bathe topless. They don't feel comfortable anymore. I can not begin to describe my grief over this.
What the devil are you wittering on about :laugh4: We are talking about the right of people to wear whatever clothes they like.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Church bells causing offence eh? That sounds like a classic example of a news agenda puff-piece. I'd love you to find the actual story behind that. You sound like you have swallowed a year's subscription to the Daily Mail. A lot of unsubstantiated nonsense masquarading as 'British culture in crisis'.
Once again I ask - what about your life has been compromised in any way by people wearing hijab?
Yet it is, for every beard demanding special treatment there is an army of the inquisitors of the leftist church with their unlimited funds to swing their juridical wrecking ball. It has become less worse lately since we are kinda fed up at this point and the leftist church in the end only cares about their own comfortable existance and the funds might be less fat next round.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
The influence of new cultures has managed to destroy a cherished French tradition too: women no longer bathe topless. They don't feel comfortable anymore. I can not begin to describe my grief over this.
HA when it comes to that civilization is much intact here. You can never have our boobs.
You don't even see the paradox :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
You don't belong in the Netherlands if you don't like to be told what to do - but here's what you must do or you should leave.
Ahhh the far right. It would be amusing if it didn't lead to violence.
Alright, let's take a chick in a full islamic dress with a hijab and stuff and compare her to a Catholic nun. Both are covered, both do it out of devotion to God. Nobody would ever give a nun a hard time over the way she is dressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
There's no shame in that. I've considered myself a lesbian for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion1
Nuns don't swim in their habit/robe thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
An excellent point rvg.
What if I decide that I am the high priest of the giant love goat monkey comet religion that I have just made up. My religion stipulates that I wear ski goggles and a fur coat at all times. Should I be taunted and abused by Fragony?
I don't think Fragony and Rory give a toss about women's rights. They are just scared of the filthy foreigners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion1
And I think this thread should be closed. You are talking with your leftist reflexes not with us. And to be fair, this whole burkini deal comes from a rightist reflex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
What does this discussion have to do with swimming?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
NSFW:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Being naked generally goes against the public decency laws almost across the entire globe. Being covered from head to toe does not violate public decency laws.
Perfectly normal here to us, every woman bathes topless here. Seeing a woman being covered from head to toe is much more offensive to us trust me.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Well, Idaho, frankly, I don't care about whatever non existant religion and silly non existant example you invent to compare the burka with.
Burka = symbol and tool of oppression of women = away with it.
It's just common sense in my book.
It was good up to this point, then verbal diarrhoea got the better of you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
~:smoking:
Okay, so you won't mind seeing a Papuan dude cavorting on the streets of Amsterdam with nothing except a tube on his schlong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
So in the absence of any reasoned argument you just go for a cheap dig.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
I take that as you formally conceeding the point.
I don't care what people wear. Live and let live.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
The examples show that modesty and gender vary widely across the globe.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
If France had fifteen million Papua and Amazonian immigrants, instead of Africans and Muslims, we'd be having an entirely different debate.
The right to wear less, instead of more, would be contented. The penis sheath, instead of the Burqa, would be central to discussion about immigrant gender roles and their expression through fashion. 'Man must be allowed to show their manly virility', instead of 'women must be allowed to show their female modesty'.
The woman of this story is a French convert. She is challenging the right to wear a stylized, western variant of exotic attire. It is not all that different from me demanding the right to wear the stylized, western variant of New Guinean clothing to a swimming pool. In fact, I am seriously considering getting a couple of guys together and turning up at a swimming pool dressed in penis sheats. I'll make sure to convert to animism too.
It looks bizarre what I posted, but it is not. It serves to illuminate some underlying mechanisms in the debate.
Ever been to Amsterdam :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
I don't think Fragony and Rory give a toss about women's rights. They are just scared of the filthy foreigners. <- Idaho
So in the absence of any reasoned argument you just go for a cheap dig. <- Idaho, two minutes later!
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...rdheadeskt.jpg
Scotty, bring him soup
How about french cinema? That's oppressive to women. 90% of it is about some ugly old bloke getting off with some pretty young woman :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
If it were my swimming pool, you'd get your penis sheath served for dinner :smash:Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Djeez, there is a special occasion for wearing ridiculous clothes in public: carnaval.
The rest of the year you dress properly in public and ridiculous only on private parties with lots of booze.
No burka.
Your application for the Ministery of Fail has been accepted. Third hall, first room on the left, remember it's non drooling area, thank you for your cooperation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
There is another thread here that has a name perfectly suited to this one.
What about bridal veils? Should those be banned too? After all, they serve exactly the same purpose: concealment. Or better yet: gimp suits. Those conceal *everything* under a thick layer of leather.
Instead of worrying about burkas and such, we should be focusing on a much more offensive trend, overweight people in tight clothing. Spandex is a privilege, not a right. :yes:
I really don't care, that's just fashion to me, as I said, but Idaho's mind mentally blocks that I said that. All fresh and fruity for Idaho, oh you marry your 12 year old daughter to a mullah in Childrapistan, how very exotic that just screams for intercultural dialogue since we did that 200 years ago, we can really learn from eachother.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Muslims are like Pokemon to some, they got to love them all.
You don't get it do you dearest Fraggles. The debate is not about what happens elsewhere. It's about the nature of our society. And fundamental to that society is freedom of conscience, religion and dress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Yeah, we have that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
In that case people should be free to dress in burqas.
It's xenophobic rascism and that's all there is to it. People fear different, and they're different so they must be assimilated ASAP.
Cultural relativism is such a cop out.
So you translate "I don't like it because it denigrates the women" into "I hate and fear the brown foreigners"?Quote:
Originally Posted by miotas
It's not xenophobia as it was never stated that those abiding by different cultural norms are irrationally feared.Quote:
Originally Posted by miotas
It's not racism as no allusion to any specific race has been made.
So, the post is categorically wrong. :laugh4:
~:smoking:
I wouldn't call it racism. I think Fragony perceives islam as a threat to the West, and I actually agree with him. I think that islam is the largest threat to the western way of life. However, I do not consider the curtailing of simple personal liberties to be a good way of stopping islam. Yes, it must be dealt with, but let's leave burqa out of this. Burqa is merely a visible symptom of an underlying disease. You deal with the disease and the symptom will go away.Quote:
Originally Posted by miotas
So, when I get a husband directing me as to the healthcare of his wife this is OK? Not yet a statistical sample, but so far only those with one religion appear to be making these demands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
~:smoking: