Payai Dunai

What is the etymology of Payai Dunai (Saka Foot Archers)?

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I was in Hungary a short time ago and realized that Duna was Hungarian for Danube (Dunai is Russian, Donau is German, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Azathoth

What is the etymology of Payai Dunai (Saka Foot Archers)?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I was in Hungary a short time ago and realized that Duna was Hungarian for Danube (Dunai is Russian, Donau is German, etc.).

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its most likely a coincidence that it matches the name of the danube in Hungarian.

besides, the saka were no where near the Danube in 272, were they?

its more likely to be sakan or some similar for "foot archer", or a similar term. however, I think an EB member is more fit to answer that question.

maybe they migrated from the danube ? =P

someone should post the info

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its most likely a coincidence that it matches the name of the danube in Hungarian.

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Don't forget where the Hungarians (Magyar) originally came from.

That's interresting. I never thought on that similarity before.

I checked up on the origin of the name of the Duna. - What I could find says that it stemms from the ancient Indo-European word "dānu" (meaning river or stream). The Ossetian word "Don" (water, river) is the most similar to it in a modern day language.

The name given to it by the romans "Ister" only meant the lower part of the river. This name is suspected to have its origins in ancient greek, but there are also claimes that it has celtic roots.

So I suspect the word "dunai" either means foot archer or something like that, but I wonder what an EB team member could say on the matter.

Payai Dunai was derived from an entry in an obscure Saka-Khotanese dictionary; Payai is a well-attested cognate of proto-Indo-European Pa- which means foot or pertains to feet or standing. It could ultimately be compared to Old Persian Payahdag and Middle Persian Paygan which mean infantry.

There is no lingual connection to the word for Danube or Dnieper (Danu Apara; a completely separated root) in Magyar, besides it being a loanword from previous Indo-European examples.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing this information and thus boosting the readers' knowledge.

~Fluvius

What is not a coincidence, however, is that Mori Gaesum is Slavic-sounding, as mori is "sea" in both Russian and Proto-Slavic. Same for the Volcae tribe. Volcae means "wolves" in Russian, and is also similar to the Proto-German version. There are numerous other examples of such similarities with Slavic tongues as well.

So the "Mori" in Mori Gaesum means "sea"? Sea spears?

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Originally Posted by Azathoth

So the "Mori" in Mori Gaesum means "sea"? Sea spears?

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Sea of spears.

Someone isn't reading the unit descriptions...

I have a poor memory.

l love these weird confluences, where words evolve from widely disparate roots end up sounding the same in a strangely suggestive way.

EG the Danaans in Homer sound like the Tuatha de Danaan in the old Irish stories. Prolly no relation but a gust of 19th century volks-nostalgia sweeps over me at the thought of it.

A mate of mine at work has a wild Graves-esque theory about the name Lk (Lycurgus, Luke, Lykia (the wolf-land yes, but he linked thatb to Romulus...I forget how), a whole bunch other supposed derivatives from a bunch of traditions) coming from a one-eyed (=the sun...I think he used that to tie in Solon) proto-lawgiver with some trickster characteristics. Crazy imaginative stuff.

I showed him a bit from the saga about Odin (one-eyed, crafty, etc etc it was a good match) but I noted the name didn't match...except in the footnotes it said Odin had simply absorbed the attributes of an older trickster god...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Loki

Ooooh didn't that give me shivers.:dizzy2:

Prolly nonsense but I love it.

So I vote that the Persian name for bowmen comes from another word meaning river because the PIE speakers lived by a bow in a river which looked like a bow. Or a bear.

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Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract

Payai Dunai was derived from an entry in an obscure Saka-Khotanese dictionary; Payai is a well-attested cognate of proto-Indo-European Pa- which means foot or pertains to feet or standing. It could ultimately be compared to Old Persian Payahdag and Middle Persian Paygan which mean infantry.

There is no lingual connection to the word for Danube or Dnieper (Danu Apara; a completely separated root) in Magyar, besides it being a loanword from previous Indo-European examples.

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And then I can wonder at how much EB incorporates the most obscure, unseen and unknown knowledge of the world. I've never seen a Khotanese dictionary in my life, let alone knew it existed inside the IE branch, and I wondered where those Nomad names supposedly came all from given that our written record is null. Once more we have to thank the sheltered people who dedicate their lives to such intricate and unspoken things which neverteless become necessary once in a while, even if just for a game.

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Originally Posted by A Terribly Harmful Name

And then I can wonder at how much EB incorporates the most obscure, unseen and unknown knowledge of the world. I've never seen a Khotanese dictionary in my life, let alone knew it existed inside the IE branch, and I wondered where those Nomad names supposedly came all from given that our written record is null. Once more we have to thank the sheltered people who dedicate their lives to such intricate and unspoken things which neverteless become necessary once in a while, even if just for a game.

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An important biography on Harold Bailey

What I know of H.W. Bailey is that he did a lot of work on middle and old Persian, and I make extensive use of his work for Atropatene in AtB.

I know, my paternal granddad had a degree on Iranian Studies by the University of Prague and knew Persian (having lived in Iran for two years before the Mossadegh debacle), but he has not left much on Sanskrit, Pehlevi or Khotanese... I think that would a very specialized field of Iranian history and studies, more than he had access to, or wished to have access to. Sadly most of his Persian books, typewriter et all have been donated over the years.

Which shows that I might be outclassed by a PhD, but I'll still beat an average Joe in an argument :clown:.

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Originally Posted by Hax

What I know of H.W. Bailey is that he did a lot of work on middle and old Persian, and I make extensive use of his work for Atropatene in AtB.

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I believe this is an understatement of one of the modern era's greatest linguistic minds; his merits alone are easily comparable to that of H.S. Nyberg and D.N. MacKenzie, and as far as his understanding of historiography is concerned, he stands right there with Roman Ghirshman and R.N. Frye. In Zoroastrian studies, his works are extensively consulted, and contrast well to the more established writings of Mary Boyce.

In regards to the Indo-European languages and cultures of Central Asia, both J.P. Mallory and Janos Harmatta consulted the works of Bailey. In fact, I dare say that Bailey's work is very comparable to the research of William Tarn in regards to Greek culture in Central Asia. This speaks volumes of the influence of his scholarship, in several disciplines.

Here's some inside trivia: I had no clue that Bailey had actually written a compendium on the Dunhuang Manuscripts (From which the greatest portion of the material is derived from in the dictionary). Krusader did some investigating... And found a book by Bailey... With the most outrageous price-tag ever conceived for an otherwise such a thin book. And, this is actually quite an amusing story... But, I think Krusader resorted to actually writing down the key-phrases by pen-and-paper, in situ of the library.

An ordinary lay-person wouldn't even cast a glance upon such a piece of literature. Ask them to point out where Khotan is on a map, and understandably, they are clueless about it. But here in EB, we were actually contemplating to do terrible, disgusting and downrightly morally repulsive things just to acquire a few excerpts from that book.

What followed was a whimsical restructuring by yours truly; dictionaries of obscure extinct Indo-Iranian languages tend to be so optimized that they leave very little in the ways of grammar. But there you guys have it. A pretty damn good story to tell the ladies :medievalcheers:

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An ordinary lay-person wouldn't even cast a glance upon such a piece of literature. Ask them to point out where Khotan is on a map, and understandably, they are clueless about it. But here in EB, we were actually contemplating to do terrible, disgusting and downrightly morally repulsive things just to acquire a few excerpts from that book.

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:applause:

Keep on with your research... No other mod can claim the same kind of detail!

Don't believe TPC:

"A pretty damn good story to tell the ladies"

I tried to explain the syntax of Median and how it evolved into Kurdish to a girl. She replied "Sorry, you said something?"

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Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract

But there you guys have it. A pretty damn good story to tell the ladies

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:inquisitive:



I don't know much about European Girls, but common sense and some experience has shown that there are certain things that disintrest them from ye..."technobabble" to quote James Rolfe, is one of them. And this is coming from a hardcore dino-nerd/Gelogist.

it is, however, a good story to tell other people of your type/caste (depending on region).

You guys have the uncanny ability of dodging the humour of my last comment... I give you that much. It was meant as a joke, but since we're talking about attracting the ladies with history-talk... Consider the challenge accepted.

Of course, you don't need the "techno-babble" if you know the glorious and under-rated art of boasting, and that of story-telling. It's all in the presentation! Get rid of the technical and big words, and use flowery language. It gets even better if the broad has had a few pints or cosmos or whatever non-Jägermeister shit they aren't drinking. All you need to say is just this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"Baby... I shouldn't be telling you this, you wouldn't understand."

(Create curiosity)

"Imagine, a great world..."

"...Great salt marshes..."

"...Steppes... Where horses roam wild and free!"

(Always mention horsies; girl will usually think about modern black-coated Arabians prancing madly... Not the ugly Przewalski beast that barely qualifies as a horse)

"...Surrounded by the Himalayan and Pamir mountains."

(Normally, attractive ladies wouldn't have a single clue of where the Tarim basin is located; just describe the landscape instead)

"...But laying hidden in the oasis far and few between..."

"Civilization!"

"People, building great cities, rearing tens of thousands in a life of abundance and luxury!"

(Actually, commoners would take a dump in the public cesspool, and in occasion shed the blood of their horses in times of need... A city of that time and era wasn't exactly smelling of rose-petals either bBut you don't want to tell her that...)

"In a world devoid of mercy, imagine the contrasts! Civilization!"

"No blackberries. Ipods. Tivo... Or the things we take for granted today."

(You might want to go light here... Saying that night-time being pitch-black with little to no source of light makes people think the past was particularly harsh and unforgiving... Which is pretty true, but it's not going to help you get inside her panties...)

"Now the culture has long since passed."

"But through a little ink written with a quill... They have survived in spirit."

"I can speak their tongue."

"Now... I know... For what use? Why?"

(Preempt any stupid attempts by chicks of playing down on your interest, you want respect)

"Perhaps out of respect? Admiration?"

"Some people collect stamps."

"Others collect bottle-caps."

(This is basically where you recount people having, no offence, useless hobbies; you're upping your own value)

"I indulge in long forgotten words, barely survived in texts... So old... So ancient..."

"...And to think, that from an old parchment, one step shy from turning into dust..."

"...I have managed to contribute to its greatest form of survival and immortalization."

"I have been part of bringing it back to life."

(When saying this, the chick will subconsciously think of you as some kind of hero saving some enigmatic culture from total extinction; what she doesn't know is that you're part of some mod-team with a fanbase dominated by male nerds, for a virtualized game of toy-soldiers; you only mention it's a project observed by tens if not hundreds of thousands. ALL ABOUT THE MARKETING!)

"Can you imagine how that feels like?"

"Some of these texts have survived for millennial times..."

"...Withstanding all the scourges of Mother Nature's lamentation!"

"Isn't that a kind of life of itself?"

"A testament of man's will?"

"Wouldn't everything in our future falter without our past?"

"That only a single tome written by an adventuring Englishman centuries ago..."

"...Is our only key to that past?"

(Now, technically, the book is cross-referenced from several sources as is any reputable historic or linguistic reference, but you're here to make noise, not to spill minute-detail truth about a concise book by Iranists who as usual forego even basic grammar)

"Can you imagine? Truly?"

(Now chick thinks twice before ever questioning your hobbies!)

"Nothing brings me a greater joy than to take the fragile treasures of our so worldly past...!"

"...And turn them into indestructible obelisks. Available to everyone. To all curious minds."

(Passion! Chicks dig guys with passion! The reference to obelisks is unmistakable, at this point she'll consistently be looking at your crotch)

"Is there a greater homage a man could pay in service of mankind's tapestry?"

(At this point, you're literally Superman in her eyes; Vodka+Red Bull works its charm here)

"Now, I ask you..."

"...What is your passion?"

(At this point, she is so enamored with you, she is already envisioning a way to make her girlfriends' meatheaded boyfriends look even more stupid; and why not, you're contributing to worldly culture, and not kicking and chasing some oval-shaped pigskin ball for a college team)

^If that didn't give you a boner, you're a filthy liar or you need Viagra.

Come on guys... When did interest of history become some stigma for dating chicks. Today's generation of recently turned 18-year old girls read stuff like Twilight and Harry Potter and fall so easily in love with illusions of sexy vampires and all things magical and otherworldly. Fluent historians could rival a pick-up artist any day because historians are already innate story-tellers. Mystique equals glory. Have we already forgotten Harrison Ford and Indiana Jones :smash:

Granted, you don't include the cognate-shifts between related Middle Persian and Tocharian nomenclature for noblemen, but you're not supposed to lecture the fairer sex either :laugh4:

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You guys have the uncanny ability of dodging the humour of my last comment... I give you that much. It was meant as a joke, but since we're talking about attracting the ladies with history-talk... Consider the challenge accepted.

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http://zs1.smbc-comics.com/comics/20090829.gif


EDIT:

I forgot to add, the only thing ancient civilization has given us that allows us to attract the opposite sex is the brewing of alcohol - depsite all academics in history and lingustics trying to argue otherwise, you know this to be true. :3

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Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract

You guys have the uncanny ability of dodging the humour of my last comment... I give you that much. It was meant as a joke, but since we're talking about attracting the ladies with history-talk... Consider the challenge accepted.

Of course, you don't need the "techno-babble" if you know the glorious and under-rated art of boasting, and that of story-telling. It's all in the presentation! Get rid of the technical and big words, and use flowery language. It gets even better if the broad has had a few pints or cosmos or whatever non-Jägermeister shit they aren't drinking. All you need to say is just this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"Baby... I shouldn't be telling you this, you wouldn't understand."

(Create curiosity)

"Imagine, a great world..."

"...Great salt marshes..."

"...Steppes... Where horses roam wild and free!"

(Always mention horsies; girl will usually think about modern black-coated Arabians prancing madly... Not the ugly Przewalski beast that barely qualifies as a horse)

"...Surrounded by the Himalayan and Pamir mountains."

(Normally, attractive ladies wouldn't have a single clue of where the Tarim basin is located; just describe the landscape instead)

"...But laying hidden in the oasis far and few between..."

"Civilization!"

"People, building great cities, rearing tens of thousands in a life of abundance and luxury!"

(Actually, commoners would take a dump in the public cesspool, and in occasion shed the blood of their horses in times of need... A city of that time and era wasn't exactly smelling of rose-petals either bBut you don't want to tell her that...)

"In a world devoid of mercy, imagine the contrasts! Civilization!"

"No blackberries. Ipods. Tivo... Or the things we take for granted today."

(You might want to go light here... Saying that night-time being pitch-black with little to no source of light makes people think the past was particularly harsh and unforgiving... Which is pretty true, but it's not going to help you get inside her panties...)

"Now the culture has long since passed."

"But through a little ink written with a quill... They have survived in spirit."

"I can speak their tongue."

"Now... I know... For what use? Why?"

(Preempt any stupid attempts by chicks of playing down on your interest, you want respect)

"Perhaps out of respect? Admiration?"

"Some people collect stamps."

"Others collect bottle-caps."

(This is basically where you recount people having, no offence, useless hobbies; you're upping your own value)

"I indulge in long forgotten words, barely survived in texts... So old... So ancient..."

"...And to think, that from an old parchment, one step shy from turning into dust..."

"...I have managed to contribute to its greatest form of survival and immortalization."

"I have been part of bringing it back to life."

(When saying this, the chick will subconsciously think of you as some kind of hero saving some enigmatic culture from total extinction; what she doesn't know is that you're part of some mod-team with a fanbase dominated by male nerds, for a virtualized game of toy-soldiers; you only mention it's a project observed by tens if not hundreds of thousands. ALL ABOUT THE MARKETING!)

"Can you imagine how that feels like?"

"Some of these texts have survived for millennial times..."

"...Withstanding all the scourges of Mother Nature's lamentation!"

"Isn't that a kind of life of itself?"

"A testament of man's will?"

"Wouldn't everything in our future falter without our past?"

"That only a single tome written by an adventuring Englishman centuries ago..."

"...Is our only key to that past?"

(Now, technically, the book is cross-referenced from several sources as is any reputable historic or linguistic reference, but you're here to make noise, not to spill minute-detail truth about a concise book by Iranists who as usual forego even basic grammar)

"Can you imagine? Truly?"

(Now chick thinks twice before ever questioning your hobbies!)

"Nothing brings me a greater joy than to take the fragile treasures of our so worldly past...!"

"...And turn them into indestructible obelisks. Available to everyone. To all curious minds."

(Passion! Chicks dig guys with passion! The reference to obelisks is unmistakable, at this point she'll consistently be looking at your crotch)

"Is there a greater homage a man could pay in service of mankind's tapestry?"

(At this point, you're literally Superman in her eyes; Vodka+Red Bull works its charm here)

"Now, I ask you..."

"...What is your passion?"

(At this point, she is so enamored with you, she is already envisioning a way to make her girlfriends' meatheaded boyfriends look even more stupid; and why not, you're contributing to worldly culture, and not kicking and chasing some oval-shaped pigskin ball for a college team)

^If that didn't give you a boner, you're a filthy liar or you need Viagra.

Come on guys... When did interest of history become some stigma for dating chicks. Today's generation of recently turned 18-year old girls read stuff like Twilight and Harry Potter and fall so easily in love with illusions of sexy vampires and all things magical and otherworldly. Fluent historians could rival a pick-up artist any day because historians are already innate story-tellers. Mystique equals glory. Have we already forgotten Harrison Ford and Indiana Jones :smash:

Granted, you don't include the cognate-shifts between related Middle Persian and Tocharian nomenclature for noblemen, but you're not supposed to lecture the fairer sex either :laugh4:

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interesting. an excellent dating guide for the prospective dater in serach of a cultivated/normal lady.

this would work in theory, but bear in mind, this is the year 2009-people want eyecandy I'm afraid, not mystique. believe me, I'd love to use that stuff (and I freely confess, I did use similar-hence "common sense and experience"), but nobody seems to care or get excited from the opposite sex. that's how I got my sig afterall-having a girl spurn me, for being (heaven forbid): a muslim arab/buckeye mutt, and evolutinist with a fancy for history and dinosaurs, and who talks about history and dinosaurs in the manner you just decribed (with passion, dedication, and a touch of humor)... it seems to scare girls away rather than attract them.:shame:

then again, I'm in the USA atm...I might come across as "elitist"

besides, I'm not in a humorous mood today, as I'm making another video debunking that harun yahya idiot.

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Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract

Come on guys... When did interest of history become some stigma for dating chicks. Today's generation of recently turned 18-year old girls read stuff like Twilight and Harry Potter and fall so easily in love with illusions of sexy vampires and all things magical and otherworldly. Fluent historians could rival a pick-up artist any day because historians are already innate story-tellers. Mystique equals glory. Have we already forgotten Harrison Ford and Indiana Jones :smash:

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Rofl, this made my day.

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Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract

Dating guide for nerds. Part 1: History nerds

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Exceltent, awesome, brilliant!


I have always admired the richness of languages in EB. For example what is close to my native language the name Voinu is very similar to modern Slovak vojna [voina] for war.

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Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract

Come on guys... When did interest of history become some stigma for dating chicks. Today's generation of recently turned 18-year old girls read stuff like Twilight and Harry Potter and fall so easily in love with illusions of sexy vampires and all things magical and otherworldly. Fluent historians could rival a pick-up artist any day because historians are already innate story-tellers. Mystique equals glory. Have we already forgotten Harrison Ford and Indiana Jones :smash:

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Strangely I know a "couple" who came together "with the help" of their interrest for a Period of History - I don't know how they managed it, but after they meet five times they started dating regulary (over a year ago..) and are still together.

If you are really keen to get a girlfriend, and to find one who admires your historical knowledge, why not just go and enrol with your local university history faculty?

There should be plenty of girls and guys there who have secret fantasies about history nerds like us. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

besides, I'm not in a humorous mood today, as I'm making another video debunking that harun yahya idiot.

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Excellent :2thumbsup:

I'd like to see it when it's finished.

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For example what is close to my native language the name Voinu is very similar to modern Slovak vojna [voina] for war.

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Well, after all, it is Proto-Slavic...

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Excellent :2thumbsup:

I'd like to see it when it's finished

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go to youtube, and look for Albukhshi-that's me. the one I was referring to is daoc 3.1 :2thumbsup:


@ Hungeneral: it can happen, but only in cases where the two are history buffs/nerds. and the odds aren't too good I'm afraid.that's basically the reservation I expressed...

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Originally Posted by HunGeneral

I checked up on the origin of the name of the Duna. - What I could find says that it stemms from the ancient Indo-European word "dānu" (meaning river or stream). The Ossetian word "Don" (water, river) is the most similar to it in a modern day language.

The name given to it by the romans "Ister" only meant the lower part of the river. This name is suspected to have its origins in ancient greek, but there are also claimes that it has celtic roots.

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Wikipedia features some of these theories as well as names for Danube in a lot of languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube


Many girls like art and if you want to pick some cultured girl this could be a way as art belongs to history.
There is always a way how to tell something in appealing way, like here (first row)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd111907s.gif