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Discussion?
Ktonos,
You've left out some top villains, like Toni Blayre, Sandra Husayne, Yosimite Bin Ladel and Dan from Eastenders.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif
Seriously though, if English is not your mother tongue, then I would point out that you have seriously miss-spelled the bulk of these names.
Please take my post as tongue in cheek (humerous).
If you're interested in what people think about this topic, it might be worth looking into reposting it with the correct spellings.
Personally I would have to go with Hitler, even though Communism is responsible for more death than the Nazis.
Again, if English isn't your mother tongue, I would suggest doing a quick search on your poll people on an English internet Search Engine, just to get the names right.
(Benito Mussolinni - "Duce" (pronounced doocheh) - Deutche is German)
Azrael http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
reading those names was very funny:) first time i thought that he's doing that on purpose but "Bill Klindonm " or smthin is too much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
anyway i vote for Stalin for a few reasons:
-first of all Romania suffered a lot in communism
-the poll is about the most IMMORAL leader and i'll tell smthin what my father told me about the start of the communist era in Romania; beacuse the communist wanted to destroy the religious and spiritual belives the interdict Santa Claus; my father was little at that time ( the 50s ) and the communist put instead of Santa smthin that i dont know how to spell in english; anyway.. a stupid name; and the chief of the local communist party take all the children to his bureau and he called "STALIN" andhe put every child to say what gift he want from "daddy STALIN" ;
i consider makin` brainwashing with children minds most immoral thing;
Who's that no.9 supposed to be? SAURON? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif It's a good job that young chap Frodo ended his shenanigans.....oops, gave away the end of the film(s) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
I guess only one of the Bush's qualifies for the 20th century.
I wasnt sure to pick Stalin or Hitler (picked Hitler) because, honestly, who doesnt know their names? I am against what they stood for, what they did, etc. but in their own sense, they have become immortal.
I think it pretty much comes down to Stalin and Hitler but I voted for Stalin because of quantity dead at his hand.
Adi Amin was the most unholy, immoral man on this planet, and the ugandans had the bad luck to get him as their president.
Once again I miss king Leopold II of Belgium, third biggest (after Hitler and Stalin) mass murderer in history with 10 000 000 congolese deaths on his account. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif
No, English is not my mother tongue. But we all know who do I mean. I voted for Stalin because he did what murders he did to accumulate personal power. Hitler on the other hand fdid crimes in order to make his country powerful. It is a bit different. And I could not insert more than 10 entries.
Gents, you really should do some serious reading about Stalin and his deeds before commiting yourself to reproduce the silly western propaganda that floats around.
The death toll by dearest Jo Stalin:
- First wave of purges (late 1920s-early 1930s)= 1.5 mi. people.
- Second wave of purges (just before WW2) = 500.000 people
- The great Ukranian famine (since this is charged on him too - new farming policy and all) = 2 mi. people.
If you add those together the result is Four million people.
How in the nine hells does that compare with what others done? Hitler, for one. He stands responsible (directly or indirectly) for the death of 35 mi. people - that's the death toll of WW2.
And Stalin actually rebuild his country and twice: In 1929 USSR was a huge agrarian country, with a technology level barely coming out of the 18th century (right 18th, not 19th). In 1941, days before the war comes hitting on Joes front door, USSR was second only to USA when counting industrial production Of course he rebuild USSR after WW2 too.
Do you think such a revolution comes for free? Please
The poll, btw is rather pointless. Immoral leader? Gosh, they are all immoral. It is the main prerequisite to become a leader, moral integrity is a serious boundary in attaining positions of power.
Well Rosacrux, Hitler is responsible for the deaths of soldiers in the battlefield? I do not think so, esp if you take under concideration that in WWII the allies where the aggressors (rightful agressors, but they where thae attacking force even though they ended up the defenders).
And I agree that every leader has to be more or less immoral in order to be a succesful leader, this is the point of the answer #10. I would choose it, but there are some leaders who where real Evil men. I mean even being a Greek I recognise that Ataturk was a patriot after all, I can partly understand what crimes he has done, but Stalin?
I'll open up a thread about Stalin, where I can prove why Stalin was - besides a great bastard, which he was - a great leader for his country. Not to hijack your poll too much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
I cannot believe that a man who slaughter his own people can be a great leader. Even if Germany was finally destroyed by Hitlers actions he meant to secure and make German people proud and powerful and he succeded at this to a point. Looking forward for your post for Stalin.
Ah the Congo, playground of the Belgian King. "Stop shooting the natives, don't you realise how much bullets cost?"
rosacrux to my opinion the only 'achievement' that can be attributed to Stalin is that the populated Siberia http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
Go and read what I've written in the Jo Stalin thread http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif
...and no-one cared (nor does anyone care today apparently).Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
More good colonial economics: don't cut off their fingers, they'll work less efficiently: cut of their ears/tongue/nose instead.
What an odious thread.
On the one hand, we have people defending Stalin (takes some doing) by citing the very lowest -and questionable- estimates for the enormous death toll he inflicted on his country. Then excusing him with the kind of egregiously banal "whoops, can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs" justification that would make Genghis Khan blush.
And, on the other hand, we have the apologists for Hitler. Surely that is way beyond the pale of even the most byzantine (topical;)) sophistry? According to them, he is a much misunderstood and cuddly chap who killed only the troops of his bullying, and provocative opponents because they attacked him first. I'll ask the old Polish miners of the place where I grew up about that one And I'm sure any Jewish members of the forum can jog my memory about certain other nefarious activities of the much put-upon Mr Hitler.
Laugh or cry?
Well, is THAT rasism or what. Imho anybody can support any opinion and thesis if he can reason them.To judge something/someone becausethey told you so or because it is "common" and the natural thing to do is the real "rasism". I may have a disagreement with Rosacrux but I respect that he gives reasons and facts to support his opinion. You don't.
In MY opinion, it is an odious thread with odious opinions. And, your idea of "racism" is laughable, and an insult to people who are really a victim of such attitudes and persecution.
Furthermore, I deny the contention that your arguments are in any way well supported, reasoned, or 'factual'. They are a tissue of assertions, false premisses, and downright falsehoods. I laugh in the face of your accusations. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif
Keep it cool plz Gents http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
We are all entitled to have our own views.
By golly you're right,but on the other hand Red peasants entitled to tell them that thier views are bollocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Go Red peasant.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif
Hey Guys,
Be nice to Ktonos. He's already said that English isn't his mother tongue.
Ktonons, racism, put simply, is when you discriminate against another ethnic group.
To "judge something/someone becausethey told you so or because it is "common" and the natural thing to do" is ignorance (and don't presume that I'm calling anyone here ignorant).
Hitler still gets my vote as the most immoral since he convinced his population to buy into National Socialism and its morally reprehensible core values of militaristic expansionism, racism, the Fuhrer Cult and enforced eugenics.
I.G. Farben, the manufactueres of Zyklon B, the chemical agent used to murder the Jews built a factory next to Auschwitz so that they would have a steady supply of slave labour, Jewish slave labour, who were forced into building the chemicals that would eventually kill them and the ovens that would eventually burn them (sometimes alive).
The Nazis built the Gas Chambers with windows so they could watch.
Ilsa Koch popularised exotic lampshades and book bindings.
Made from the skin of dead Jews.
Most of us have products made by I.G. Farben in our own homes. The company was technically dissolved by the allies after W.W. II, however it was actually only split into smaller companies.
Think about the 6 million Jews who helped BASF, among others, get where they are today, the next time you slap one of their video tapes in your VCR to tape a show.
Azrael
I said the thread and certain of the opinions, in my opinion, were "odious". I tried to ridicule them and in doing so I did not get personal...show me where I did. I did not say these people should be stopped from airing their opinions.....and, as a good Englishman, I'd fight for their right to free speech. Something we have always fought for....and that is not an opinion.
Wow I didn't mean it in bad-taste. But I'm just trying to stop trouble before it starts; that is part of my job here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
My apologies if I offended either of you, but it's best to break up scuffle's before they start.
No offence at all mate. Just stating my position so there's no comebacks by you guys. Wouldn't want to be labelled as an 'undesirable' by the forum police http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
I know what rasism is. I meant "rasism" meaning to judge someone who tells something which is a taboo, just because he tells it. Thats all. No offence. Sometimes a written message is mistaken for a personal attack, but this is not always the case.
Dan from Eastenders was even a tw*t in Cliffhanger.
Speaking as a Brit, I kinda dig the way we're now the classic Hollywood bad guys.
The Germans & Russians had that game sewn up for nearly half a century.
**arches shoulder & sweeps cape as GM heads off down the chip shop**
Everyone things that WWII was a war between good and evil. IMHO this is not so. It was a war like any other but in a world scale. The winner would present the defeated as the evil. Both sides did war crimes. How many of you know that in the USA, FBI arrested without accusations Japs and Italian citizens, sending them in military camps. After the war few came back home.
The thought police is on this site too? Hello Red Peasant, is your favorite moto "resistance is futile, you shall be asimilated" or something between those lines?
Ktonos, I think some people are really not fit to talk with others - they can't stand dialogue.
Well, dialogue is a greek word. I can understand them if they don't know what it really means.
You mean like OJ's search for the real killers?Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Compare the numbers who survived.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Death camps were orders of magnitude worse.
Skin Lamps, soap, gassing of humans. Those are crimes against humanity. There is a scale here.
Nazi Concentration Camp > British Boer War Concentration Camp > USA WWII Camp > Summer Camp.
The Nazi's believed they were superior to everyone else. They were a racist organisation.
Final Solution was something that they did do.
That is a huge difference between that and incarcerating people out of fear (could have been handled and/or looked after a whole lot better).
In my opinion the Nazi ideas were evil. Not only their ideas but the fact they went further then any single group in history towards a campaign of genocide against Gypsies, Jews, intellectualy handicapped, and many others.
As were the Japanese just like at the rape of Nanking.
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Fighting against the Italians the Maori Battalion had one of their hospital tents grenaded. In response the Maori leader called for Uto (Honour) and that no Italian prisoners would be taken in the following battle. After wiping out the Italians (including picking them up and throwing them off cliffs) the deeds were brought to the high command. The leader was stripped of his command and sent home in disgrace.
War crimes happened on both sides. However the huge difference is where it was an individual case by case basis on the side of the Allies in the vast majority of the cases, the Axis this and on top of that systematic systems of war crimes.
Killing wounded in hospitals.
Refusing Red Cross help to prisoners.
Refusing proper medical aid.
Torture. Rape. Mass Murder. Skining prisoners alive for lamp shades.
Russian POW slave labour.
The list goes on. It wasn't just demented/war weary/psychotic/pissed off individuals. It was a cold inhumane system that both the Germans and Japanese used.
Only apologists say the Nazi's or Japanese were not evil.
Rasism is not in the english language that I have seen before.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Racism is. This is when you hold a set of beliefs about someone based on their race, normally of a negative set.
So for Red Peasant to have made a racist comment would have required something like 'your views are stupid and your are pig ugly because you are *insert race here*'.
To call someone racist in UK/USA/Australia (essentially any prior Britsh Colony) and many places else in the world is a VERY imploite thing to do.
To do so is the verbal equivalent of punching someone in the face in western society. So make sure those comments are justified. Because calling someone a racist is not a throw away comment, it is in fact a serious insult.
Racial vilification (ie being a racist) is a criminal offence in Australia. So essentially you are accusing someone of a crime. Make sure you have evidence or understand a word such as this before you throw it around.
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PS I am the bOrg but I have standards so don't worry about being assimalated anytime soon Rosacrux http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif
Since I consider myself having pretty high standards anyway, don't expect me to start begging to be assimilated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
P.S. Don't be harsh on Ktonos. He did choose poorly the word, but I think we can all understand what he meant and most of us can spell intolerance...or even bigotry, right?
But a bigot in normal parlance assumes you know something of the persons background and are using that as an assumption about their character. Bigot is to racism what a rectangle is to a square.
So if I make a broad judgement based on which side of town someone comes from that is a bigot. Or sexuality, race, religion etc. A bigot tends to paint in broad strokes and deleting the individual in favour of group prejudice.
So I wouldn't assume Red Peasant is being a bigot about this... maybe about rugby union http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif.
Intolerance, well some things in life shouldn't be tolerated. That is what we have criminal standards for somethings we also have charities, and hospitals all to deal with things we do not tolerate. As long as people do not make their differences of opinion personal I have no problem with them disagreeing with each other or myself.
So I may agree that intolerance has been shown. But as long as we aren't calling fatwa or inquisitions on each other I think things will be okay.
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Oh by the way Rosacrux my form of assimilation is copius smiles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif *Pape evil demented laugh...