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So, are there any records on left-handed people in ancient times? Ones specifically mentioning people that favour their other hand, or maybe soldiers in battle wielding a weapon in the left hand.
Were there possibly any custom made swords or axes for the purpose?
I know that with Rome, they would just train any lefties to use their right hand to fight. as for custom made swords and axes, I don't think so. you pick up a sword, it's going to work just as well whether you are wielding it in your right hand or left.
i Think there is
there must be. but ancient bioghraphy does'nt tell us about the persons left handness
Yeah you`re right. I asked just in case there was a single weapon accustomed only to right-handed people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torvus
Hmm, I could have guessed it was like that with Rome. No making an exception for a small minority, getting them to use the right hand seemed a cheaper and a quicker way around it.
Ok, I am not looking for the person`s exact description of the preferred hand, just anything recording the phenomena.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Septimus Severus
Difficult to fight left-handers though, as their attacks come from an unexpected angle.
Edited to add, an angle/way that you have not trained as much to reflectively parry.
I think something with like left-handedness, a genetic trait shared by one tenth of the population, it would be acceptable to assume that it was present in EB's timeframe.
Good point :beam: :book:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macilrille
yeah, we think that they're gonna attack from the right, but they attack from the left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macilrille
:idea2: so, if maybe left handed generals attack with there left wing first
Many warriors during the Middle Ages learned to fight with both hands against people fighting with either hand. Probably the same goes true for the EB period.
A few things:
- Left or right handedness matters relatively little if it doesn't come down to fine & precise movements; in particular because the world is sort of right-handed by default many left-handed people will have to learn to wield right-handed tools just the same. You'll find that left-handed people often can work with right-handed scissors and similar tools; sometimes so much so that they can not or no longer wield left-handed equivalents. Also many often used movements become ingrained nerve cells of the spine and therefore somewhat disconnected from dexterity. In any case working with tools is about making them a habit.
- Many fighting styles are quite ambidextrous too: chucking a javelin for instance. So it is really about what hand you happen to learn the movements with.
- Some fighting styles force the use of the right-hand because the majority prefers the right hand and the formation demands you all use the same hand. Extremely close-order infantry (phalanx and similar shield-walls) or cavalry (knee-to-knee charging formation of some cataphracts) spring to mind.
Also: left-handedness is actually the absence of a genetic trait (right-handedness can be by birth; left-handedness however can't) combined with a better-than-average right brain-half.
well my father was born left-handed... then in primary school the teachers made him use his right hand (we're talking about the 50's) so ever since he can write with both hands. hmmmmm, i don't think that using your "good" left hand would have worked in a phallanx context though...and i've seen no left-handers having problems in modern-day army drills :yes:
Look to the Bible:
Judges 20:16 - Among all this people there were seven hundred chosen men lefthanded; every one could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss. (KJV)
If I recall correctly, both Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar were left handed, as are Fidel Castro and Queen Elizabeth II
I can personally attest to this, I'm left handed but my right hand has become dominant in all but writing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
There's actually an interesting trend in human left-handedness. Apparently, when the species first appeared, 150000-200000 years ago, let's say, half the population was left handed. Nowadays, supposedly 1 in 20 are left-handed.Quote:
I think something with like left-handedness, a genetic trait shared by one tenth of the population, it would be acceptable to assume that it was present in EB's timeframe.
same here actually. In the Arab world, its considered unlucky to use the left hand, so my grandmother made sure that I used my right hand to write with in Kindergarden/1st grade. as a result, I also became ambidextrous, but at the same time my left hands writes as I used to write in Kindergarden (no practice). I otherwise do everything else with either hand (drawing, shooting, eating, drinking, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by ARCHIPPOS
and left handedness is a recessive trait, so its not really the result of the absence of a gene, as it is the absence of dominent alleles in the gene.
Nope not at all like that, it is only in duels/ one-on-one fights. You have trained against 90% right-handed people, if unlucky only against them. That means that the reflective defensive reactions you have trained is partly useless when it comes to facing a lefthander as his natural attacks come from the opposite places you are used to. And they come in from the weapon side instead of from the shield side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Septimus Severus
It is a bit hard to explain, but I hope I succeeded somewhat, it goes even for people who are lefthanded themselves and for people like me who have trained to fight with both hands and/or two weapons. A part of Christopher "Lefty" Cold-Ravnkilde's fame comes from being left-handed, he is extremely good, but that he is a lefty only adds to it.
How on earth can we talk about how large a % of people were left-handed then? Who says the finds we have are representative of the population then? That is the problem with all archeology as we all know; "how representative is it?".Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth
Not dizzing you, merely curious and pointing out problems.
I'm not sure how much reality might be behind this, but if I recall then there was a character (I think Scaevola or something) in early roman legend who was sent to an Italian King whose Army was beseiging Rome. After the King asked what made him think that the romans were anything special the messenger answered by puttinh his right hand into a nearby campfire/torch and made no sound while his arm burned to ashes. After that the King gave up the siege - he knew he couldn't win over a people so determined and hardy.
If I remember right then the messenger survived and used his left hand from there on - that also gave him his nickname Scaevola which means as much as left handed.
Actually the story is a bit different than you retold it.... :book:, however it`s a good example you gave. I almost forgot about Scaevola from the early history of Rome.Quote:
Originally Posted by HunGeneral
In formation it was assumed all soldiers use the right hand to grab thair weapons and the left to use their shield.... well, it doesn't matter which hand did u use to write, but if you are trained to fight with swords on your right and shield on your left.... maybe you'll try to slam your enemy with your shield more than right handed men. Just remember that the Roman legionaries' fighting style using their shields as much as the main course of attack, gladius is just for finishers.
Could you cite a source for this? It seems logical, but I don't think we know this for sure. The obsession with forcing children to use their right hand may be something of the last two centuries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torvus
I rather doubt that, since mammals (and even birds) also have a preference for the left or right side. Handedness is not an uniquely human trait, so presumably there was a bias in our direct ancestor that would have been transferred to our species. Also, the percentage of left-handedness varies between cultures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth
Actually handedness seems to be present in most creatures with bilateral symmetry. '_'
Its even been theorized that Trilobites were 'right handed' because they always favored turning right when predators attacked them. Apparantly its because of that almost all trilobite fossils with bite damage have it on the right side.
AFIAK the romans thought being left handed was unlucky, hence the use of sinister (derived form the latin for left) today to mean something that is evil.
AFIAK, the Romans had special cohorts for left handed people.
Special cohorts in the good way or bad way? Did they just stick them on the right flank so they better shield the right side?
Well, I concede that to you. It's interesting to think about, at least, and might point to a progressive decline in left-handedness.Quote:
How on earth can we talk about how large a % of people were left-handed then? Who says the finds we have are representative of the population then? That is the problem with all archeology as we all know; "how representative is it?".
Not dizzing you, merely curious and pointing out problems.
That way. They weren't some Super-Duper Leftie Elite.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontline1944
Where's the "peaceful" part in slinging stones accurately.....
Oh, the Bible, what an amusing text...
Still, some interesting answers on the leftie front so far.
:inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishHitman
I don't see any mention of "peaceful" in that verse myself...
*assumes movie gangster tone*
You tryin'a start sumthun, punk?
I meant that too many people state that the Bible is a peaceful text that preaches love, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontline1944
Clearly they missed the bit about left-handed slingers throwing rocks at people to kill them....
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
I believe that polar bears are 100% left handed. I cannot back up that statement with any sources unfortunately but I distinctly remember reading in more than one biology journal that all polar bears that have ever been recorded, wild and captivity, will only use there left hand to swipe or paw something while standing on there right hand. I actually remember one journal making a small point about it. And thos ein captivity can be teased to stand up and swipe at food. They always either only use their left hand, or do multiple swipes with boht hands but always starting with there left hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
Anyone able to back this up with sources maybe?
Aye, well, there's an Old Testament in which the Israelites conquer and are conquered - obviously there is much violence detailed here - and there's a New Testament, which preaches love, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishHitman
Strange, a quick look on Wikipedia (*gasp*, but it provides sources) and I find that what you described is *supposedly* an internet meme/myth. Take a look here, second paragraph. There is little detail, unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blxz
what do you expect? its a book tracing the mythologised history of the Israelites, as they saw themselves. its bound to have many disturbing scenes. most religous/cultural books tend to e that way: the gitas, the mythologies of greece and rome, etc. of course some are WAY less violent than the Bible, but you get the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishHitman
but I was under the impression that right and left handedness was somehow related to the presence of assymetrical brains-as in Humans.
My mistake, I forgot wikipedia as the source of all that is good and right in our world. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontline1944
I distinctly remember reading it more than once in some peer reviewed scientific journals while doing a (totally unrelated I might add) assignment. However considering the crap that lands up in peer reviewed stuff sometimes you may be right about it being a myth. Who knows, thats why I asked for sources to verify or disprove. Thanks.
Also in the bible, Judges 3:12-30 - Ehud is left-handed (I heard that the hebrew text literally says his right-hand was "closed" i.e. deformed, so he couldn't use it in warfare), and so is unsuspected when he delivers a "message" to the King of Moab. This carries on the recursive theme of God using unlikely people which the author is emphasising.
That "message" was a sword thrust to the belly, if I recall correctly. I remember citing that verse as my favorite several years ago. :laugh4:
I wonder if some could weild an axe left handed, but a sword only right... I bowl right, shoot right, hold the hockey stick right, but play pool left, and shoot a bow left too. My dad's left handed, and taught me to shoot pool and a bow left.
:no:Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishHitman
It is certainly true that the Bible contains some nasty bits and that several atrocities have been committed in its name. However, this is not the right way to start a discussion about it; nor is this the right forum.
No more bible-bashing, please.
Now, back to left-handedness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbin
Interesting, but do you have sources?Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotan
There is a theory that left-handedness gives an advantage in combat against adversaries used to fighting right-handed enemies, which, in a right-biased species, means most people. This would explain why left-handedness is more common in "deadly" tribal societies. However, handedness has never been properly measured in these societies, so the evidence is not that strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...or=tam#lexiconQuote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
Its interesting to note that the romans considered it lucky before adopting the greek veiw (has to do with the direction of the "lucky" east when performing augeries).
I recall reading an article about a correlation between violence in societies and left handedness. The advantage of lefthandedness is that the majority of the populace (righties) are not accustomed to fighting a left-handed person. In cultures with a higher murder-rate theres a higher left-handedness.
Its seen in modern sports too. Rafael Nadal is left-handed.
Im a leftie ^^. Whenever i picked up the baseball bat the field team panicked because they had to alter their entire formation.
On-topic, I would think that in the tribal societies of the Celts there would be significant amount of left-handedness. Nobody would be trained to fight right handed there anyway because nobody was trained at all.
No? darn i wanted to join.Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotan
Like I wrote above, the evidence that deadly societies have a greater proportion of left-handed people is disputed.Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderthegreater
:no:Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderthegreater
:wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderthegreater
Hmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderthegreater
I think your right, because the celts are'nt trained, they used there own weapons and skill.
So, maybe a lot of Celts are lefties:sweatdrop:
:wall::wall::wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Septimus Severus
Perhaps the average Celt came out of their mother's thighs with a longsword, spikey hair and a fiery look on its face, right?
Hooray for the steel plated birth canals of Celtic women!
:wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:
I think this thread has run its course a while ago...
:stop:
:dancinglock::dancinglock:
I don’t recall much more about the piece than reading it but long ago I was reading on Roman military tactics.
A part of the article said that they would place lefties on the flank to stop the lines from drifting as they fought.
There is little genetic evidence that left-handedness is inherited. I think only one protein has been found that slightly increases the chance that someone is left handed.
The best evidence is that it has to do with elevated testosterone levels in the fetus, also would explain why only 2% of women are left handed.
Lefties occur throughout nature, not just humans, and it seems they have a survivability advantage in confrontations because of their rarity
A natural tendency fighting is to get as much cover from the guy on your weapon side's shield. This is what makes line drift. Positioning lefties on the left would split the unit as the flanks would drift in opposite directions. Positioning then on the right would make the unit too close. I am very dubious about this remembered article you quote. It may be something you saw in The Sun or something equivalent for all you recall.Quote:
A part of the article said that they would place lefties on the flank to stop the lines from drifting as they fought.
Not even all scientific articles are correct and artciles dealing with history appear in some very "popular" forms sometimes in less serious magazines for the broad public.
I am sorry to be an arrogant and stubborn mule, but your vague memory of something you do not remember where, when or specifically what you read is no valid source.
I shall make some inquiries though to avoid misunderstandings. We should hopefully be able to validate or discount this theory in 2-3 days.
I still feel this thread has run its course, but also that such a matter needs resolving, for now people reading this thread will vaguely remember having read somewhere and in 4-5 years with dimmed memory pass on something probably incorrect as truth...
If you want another example of left-handedness in the Bible, Ehud was a hero from the Book of Judges who killed Eglon, the king of Moab, helped because the guards didn't see his sword on the opposite side from normal.
I know that one from a very silly song written by a poet and co at a Christian festival (I believe they were trying to find the most innapropriate Bible story to write a children's song about - this festival is quite open and liberal, otherwise they might not have got away with it!)
well i do not believe in "handedness" , mostly because of this reason. somewhere in time , someone decided that if you lead with your left or right hand in a few select activities ,that somehow dictates your overall preference for deciding on which hand you lead with in every activity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk
Wait... I read this discussion and this give an aggrement to my experience. When I was a little child, I usually used my left hand to do anything, but, in my primary school, I was tought to write exclusively in right hand (involving anything from my teacher giving an extra cake when I behave nicely, and she grab my left hand and say "Don't do this this is the baadddd hand" everytime I try to write with it). The result is: I was able to write nicely only with right hand (i still capable to write clearly readable with my left, but the quality is poor compared to my right writing (I have a really nice handwriting, everyone said that.. eheh)), and the right hand was better to do some soft work (such as titration and place small objects on microscope), but when I got into a fight or playing sports that need strength, I use the left, because the muscles on my left hand is definitely bigger than the right..... well, I play tennis, badminton, and basketball mostly with my left.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountaingoat
So, that handedness... is decided by who are teaching you about doing something...
That's why I was lucky in Primary School, because my teacher was left-handed too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Wolf
I'm right handed, but for some reason my left arm is stronger. I am quite ambidextrous actually, but this probably has to do with the fact i trained in wing chun kuen at one point, which requires you learn to be ambidextrous. Good thing too, because i no longer do certain things with only one hand. :beam:
Perhaps you should check your vocab, bible-bashing around here = zealous belief in the Bible...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
That still happens in the modern world?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Wolf
That is messed up :no:
I understand it means either bashing the Bible and bashing with the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishHitman
Far - far away from your "modern education" system pal.... this is Indonesia, about 1994-1997 (first until third class of primary school)..... :laugh4: and right there, left hand is still considered "baaaad baaaaaad hand" and I won't get an extra cake if I still write with my left... :clown: and without that extra cake, my handwriting will be still a hieroglyphs..... :egypt:Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotan
yes, indeed well in indonesian:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Wolf
"tulisan gw tu entar ancur kolo pake tangan kiri
:book:
our writing will get a C or F if we write with our left hand. and if we eat with our left hand, we could be get mad at....
Left hand was customarily used as "toilet-paper hand" here, so if someone see you eat with left hand, they'll say ck ck ck.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Septimus Severus
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
This thread has run it's course.
Thread closed.